Lime Rock events

[ner88]

Do many drivers have a problem attending events that would require being there on Friday?
Given notice and a good event would you schedule it and plan ahead?

I've been told that if qualifying on Friday was required many drivers would not attend.:shrug:

[JLawton]

I'm in a lucky situation where I get a ton of vacation time and don't live too far from LRP. So I would be OK with it but I think I'll be in the minority.

[StephF]

Thanks to my ever-lousy work schedule, I haven't been able to fit LRP in for years. And I haven't taken vacation time for it due to the expense and one race format that we usually have there.
I could be persueded to try it again given the right circumstances though....what do you have in mind Jerry?

[gran racing]

I won't say that it doesn't frustrate me to take a day off just for qualifying. If there are only a couple of LRP events per year, I'm not sure it would totally prevent me from going but would make me think twice. I'd prefer a Sat. only, short qual session (15 min total), then a race. If the region needs to purchase both Fri & Sat, maybe make Fri a

[THawkbh]

Being that there is no racing allowed on sundays, it does make sense to race on friday as well. However, if we race 2 days, i feel there really should be double regionals like we get at other tracks. The entry fees at lrp aren't cheap and in return we get 1 race and have to miss a day of work.

On the other side of the argument, I'd rather be at the racetrack than at work.

[ner88]

LRP is a two day rental, no racing on Friday.

[THawkbh]

I've been told that if qualifying on Friday was required many drivers would not attend.:shrug:


LRP is a two day rental, no racing on Friday.

:017: Racing as in no races and no qualifying? or are we assuming qualifying is not considered a race under lrp rules? or does the rental include sat/sun and not fri/sat?

[Greg Amy]

...are we assuming qualifying is not considered a race under lrp rules?
That is correct. To the local ordinances, qualifying is not "racing".

Jerry, I'm not sure where you're going with this or what you have in mind, but I suggest I'd continue to be willing to do a couple of LRP Friday events. However, like Jeff, I live within commuting distance so I don't have to take Thursday off to travel nor do I have to find local accommodations (I live 1:15 away and commute home). Were I three hours away (such as I am for NHMS) I'd be less inclined. Ain't sayin' I'd do zero, I'd just be less motivated.

If we were to find a way to cram in a Regional into Saturday only, *and* find a way to generate revenue from Friday to reduce the entry costs for that one-day race (e.g., open HPDE or some such, which I hear are still in high demand with various car clubs) then I'd be inclined to do more LRP events.

LRP is a tough nut to crack; it's very high cost (both in cash flow and calendar inconvenience) and thus lower value. Personally, I find the Sat/Sun NHMS weekends (add Friday test for only another ~$150) to be a better value for the dollar and time than the Fri/Sat LRP, despite being a longer tow and requiring a hotel. But one can easily argue LRP is a better racetrack.

GA

[raffaelli]

I'd prefer a single day event. But, two days would not stop me from going.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jerry,

Fridays are no problem for me and the people who run with Flatout.

How about this set up:

Friday qualifying race for Sat Points race. Grid for QR set by random draw. Grid for Sat points race set by finishing position from QR. Full 25 lap QR...

Or 10 min qualifiers in the AM and 15 lap qualifying races (grid set by time) in the PM to set Sat grid by finishing position

Doable? Is a qualifying race a 'qualifier'?

[RHallRacing]

Its a not a problem for us either. But we're lucky to only live 30 minutes from the track.

[RacerBill]

What is the maximum number of cars you can have on track at one time? I used to know but have long forgotten.

What is your participation level in classes that where the majority of cars run Nationals rather than Regionals (GT1....)?

What is the possibility of running a restricted regional, with a smaller number of run groups and more seat time?

What are the shortest and longest that drivers will tow for LRP events?

Can you run two sanctions on the same day - Friday practice/qual for both races and then two restricted regionals on Saturday (AM & PM)?

Just trying to think outside of the box and come up with something workable.

PS, I was around and working events when the locals tried to shut down the track in what '67, '68? I feel your pain. One of my goals is to run a race at LRP before I hang up the helmet, but it's a long tow from Ohio for a one day event.

[THawkbh]

if it were possible, i'd say 2 qual sessions on friday, and then 2 races saturday. a double regional in 2 days and no 'racing' on friday.

or i like what was done with the schools out regional. a qual session with a race that was essentially broken into 2 sessions.

[Greg Amy]

Friday qualifying race for Sat Points race...Is a qualifying race a 'qualifier'?
No racing on Friday, dood.

"Racing" means people competing for on-track finishing order. When you're "qualifying" you're theoretically driving alone against the clock and your finishing order on the track is ear-elephant. Theoretically.

Though, we've all met folks that think otherwise... <rolleyes>

[JohnRW]

What is the maximum number of cars you can have on track at one time? I used to know but have long forgotten.

38. (25 / mile)

Can go 10% over that with a waiver from the division's Exec. Steward, so the real answer is 41.8, but nobody likes getting their car sawed up.

[BruceG]

Jerry and the region have no control over the town ordinance(which has been no racing on Sundays since 1957) or the track cost. I'm sure Skip Barber would gladly bump us and make room for a NASA or SCDA track day(or any of the car clubs). If you live in New England, only Loudon or LRP make any sense for travel to a regional race(2.5 hrs to either track from Southern VT). The Glen is just too far for some of us on a regular basis.

So while they Friday/sat setup may not be ideal it's better than nothing IMHO. However, having a tech inspection Thursday evening is tough to make.:dead_horse:

[Andy Bettencourt]

If Greg is correct, then I say two qualifier on Friday for a double on Saturday.

[lateapex911]

Friday is no problem for me. Lime Rock is such a better track I'd say that even if I was 3 hours away.

Ideally, I'd want the format to be:

Friday AM practice, PM qualify race. (If you can come up with a system that beats a loophole, like: Your finishing position plus your lap time ranking = your starting position,* then GREAT! ) More races even if shorter are preferred.

Sat AM race, PM race. Screw the warm ups, or limit it to one open, one closed, first come first served or 'see the steward for your ticket, 38 cars of each get on, period"

* Bob wins race, runs a 1:02.5 (1)
Tom is 2nd, runs a 1:02.1 (2)
Tim is third 1ith a 1:03 (3)
Steve is 4th with a 1:01.9 (4)

So, The time order is: Steve, points:(1), Tom(2), Bob(3) and Tim(4).

Steve has 5, Tom has 4, Bob has 4, and Tim has 7.

Grid:
Tom (ties go to faster lap time, emphasizing the qualifying aspect)
Bob
Steve
Tim

Shake it up. Could be fun. And that's easy spreadsheet math. I volunteer to come to T&S and input it all if needed.

[CRallo]

A few thoughts; The more driving and the better the value, the better.

One day events are LAME! I would do one cuz its LRP and boycott the rest! :p seriously tho...

I am in love with LRP, but I am poor so... whatever is the best value.


if it were possible, i'd say 2 qual sessions on friday, and then 2 races saturday. a double regional in 2 days and no 'racing' on friday.

or i like what was done with the schools out regional. a qual session with a race that was essentially broken into 2 sessions.




Can you run two sanctions on the same day - Friday practice/qual for both races and then two restricted regionals on Saturday (AM & PM)?

Just trying to think outside of the box and come up with something workable.


If Greg is correct, then I say two qualifier on Friday for a double on Saturday.


+1!!



Friday is no problem for me. Lime Rock is such a better track I'd say that even if I was 3 hours away.

Ideally, I'd want the format to be:

Friday AM practice, PM qualify race. (If you can come up with a system that beats a loophole, like: Your finishing position plus your lap time ranking = your starting position,* then GREAT! ) More races even if shorter are preferred.

Sat AM race, PM race. Screw the warm ups, or limit it to one open, one closed, first come first served or 'see the steward for your ticket, 38 cars of each get on, period"

* Bob wins race, runs a 1:02.5 (1)
Tom is 2nd, runs a 1:02.1 (2)
Tim is third 1ith a 1:03 (3)
Steve is 4th with a 1:01.9 (4)

So, The time order is: Steve, points:(1), Tom(2), Bob(3) and Tim(4).

Steve has 5, Tom has 4, Bob has 4, and Tim has 7.

Grid:
Tom (ties go to faster lap time, emphasizing the qualifying aspect)
Bob
Steve
Tim

Shake it up. Could be fun. And that's easy spreadsheet math. I volunteer to come to T&S and input it all if needed.

Sounds interesting...

[gran racing]

If I simply want track time, I'll instruct at SCDA events or other HPDE clubs and pay no entry fee. If Fri qual is a must, then like Jake said no warm-ups and do two short sprints on Sat. The other idea is neat if that would slide.

[RacerBill]

For those looking for series points/races to keep their licenses, a double event with two sanctions would be ideal.

[anthony1k]

For most people I don't believe it makes sense to be at LRP for a second day for an extra 15-30 minute of track time. A few years back we ran a full test day on Friday and qual/race on Saturday. If you registered for both days you got lots of track time for reasonable money. If I remember correctly that events was very well subscribed. Of course that was then so I'm not sure how well this format would work now.

[ner88]

For most people I don't believe it makes sense to be at LRP for a second day for an extra 15-30 minute of track time. A few years back we ran a full test day on Friday and qual/race on Saturday. If you registered for both days you got lots of track time for reasonable money. If I remember correctly that events was very well subscribed. Of course that was then so I'm not sure how well this format would work now.
If your're talking about the June event 2 years ago, NNJ lost their shirt on that event:rolleyes:

[anthony1k]

If your're talking about the June event 2 years ago, NNJ lost their shirt on that event:rolleyes:

I hear that they are all money losers.
It is more of an exercise in damage control.

[StephenB]

I really like Jake's idea ... it actually gives you some strategy to work out! And if you crash out and or break BUT you had a good lap time you could be near the front still.


A few years back i think NER held an event called "Track Time is King" This had a regular qualifying/practice Friday am. Then a qualifying race Friday evening that set the grid for a Saturday AM race. The sat am race finishing positions set the grid for a Saturday afternoon sanctioned race. 1 sanction # to save the region money but advertised like it was a triple! It was a ton of fun with a lot of racing. Best weekend that I had at limerock in the last ten years as a driver.

I dislike and will probably not travel for the 1 day event. I would rather spend the 2 days and have the opportunity to hang out and relax with racing friends. That's just me and it doesn't matter if its 15 min. to NH or the 3 to LRP I still like the 2day race weekends. Heck if it was my choice I would stick around and race on Monday at LRP and enjoy a social day Sunday!

One other option that is pretty cool was the drivers school mixed with test day idea we did... that may work as well to generate some extra money for the region.

Those are my ideas,
Stephen

[dtanthon]

To add to Jerry's comment:
That was a test day Friday and Qual/Race on Saturday. NNJR do lose a lot on that one. The problem was it was the weekend after Memorial Day. Bad on the schedule.

Remember back in 2007 when MoHud did a double at LRP. 2 quals on Friday and 2 races on Saturday. A ton of track time because many freaked on the cost, the entry was very low.

The goal of any SCCA region is to have a little profit at any event, not just break even. Every once in awhile we can have a strong event but most are planned for that small profit. The regions have equipment and other costs that spread over the year that needs to be accounted.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Remember back in 2007 when MoHud did a double at LRP. 2 quals on Friday and 2 races on Saturday. A ton of track time because many freaked on the cost, the entry was very low.



Drivers will also tell you that it was 1 of 3 back-to-back-to-back doubles. Yes, you read that right.

Try that format again with a better schedule and I bet you have a winner.

[dtanthon]

yep, that was doubles at Pocono, Lime Rock, then NHMS. (We had the Pocono diff in the GT4 510 for LRP, I was shifting all over the place. A lot of fun. I miss that 510, but the RX/7 is even more fun.)

I think the MoHud race was $300 for a single and $400 for the double.
On the event where NNJR lost it was $290 for the one day regional and $250 for the test day (I think). But I think the real reason it feel was because it was after the double (or triple) at NHMS.

The 4 regions that run races at LRP have to work together. If we don't then NER needs to take them all. My 2 cents.

[gran racing]

Quality versus quantity. And yes Jerry, I absolutely know you are doing everything you can to ensure the quality aspect, ask then have listened to us (even when you sound grumpy here lol) and even better - employ suggetions made. :happy204:

I do think there are still some things which have not been tapped into yet which could help with the quality aspect.

[67ITB]

I have no problem attending Friday events at Limerock.

But my situation is sort of unique, I live less than an hour away, and have more vacation days than most.

Matt

[lateapex911]

I gotta say, I always raise an eyebrow when I read and hear comments about entry fees being high. I walk around the paddock, and I see not one or two, but DOZENS of motorhomes costing HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars. Yea yea, "I got it used". and "it saves on hotels"... whatever, LOL, I'd love to see the math.
The bottom bottom line isn't how much the entry fee is...it's way more complicated. For guys who live where I do, it's cheaper by far to run Lime Rock than other tracks, even if the other entry fees were nearly free because of gas. Conversely LRP is really expensive for those distant.

I think events succeed or fail based on a number of factors, but the biggest one is scheduling...TIME is for most of us, the dearest resource. Family pressures mean we just can't do three weekends in a row. And a small cadre of workers can't either. I bet THAT's the main worry for any region. We're very lucky here in the NE having so many tracks, and so many events to chose from, but racers and workers aren't an infinite resource. But yea, nothing new about that.

[JLawton]

I gotta say, I always raise an eyebrow when I read and hear comments about entry fees being high. I walk around the paddock, and I see not one or two, but DOZENS of motorhomes costing HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars. Yea yea, "I got it used". and "it saves on hotels"... whatever, LOL, I'd love to see the math.
.

No sh*t, huh? :lol:

My expenses for a weekend run over $1,000 (total expenses divided by the number of races I run). Whether I pay $250 or $350 it's not going to be the deal breaker for me. But if I have to make a choice on my schedule between a triple at NHMS or a LRP event? I'm going to NH. But I think NER has done an awesome job of cramming as much racing into a weekend as you possibly can. The June LRP event is a good example.

Yeah, Jerry gets grumpy once in awhile but he does listen. :p But he is in one of those "no win" situations where you can't make EVERYONE happy.

[gran racing]

The bottom bottom line isn't how much the entry fee is...it's way more complicated.

You're right, it's way more complicated. I will absolutely say that in my family, how much the entrance fee is matters. Not saying that is necessarily should in some instances, but it does. I don't know how much I paid in fuel to get to Summit Point last weekend, nor do I want to know. (I just imagine Jake going to Mapquest the moment he reads this then doing his little calculation. Grrrrr.) I can tell you that my wife was pleased when I told her the entry fee for three days of racing there was less than one day at LRP. A part of people who have similar thinking is due to perceived value in the product we're purchasing.

While not ignorant of the various costs to attend a race further away, I think human nature is to hide some of the costs like I mentioned above fuel. Much like many of us do when it comes to the build versus buy evaluation.

[THawkbh]

I gotta say, I always raise an eyebrow when I read and hear comments about entry fees being high. I walk around the paddock, and I see not one or two, but DOZENS of motorhomes costing HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars. Yea yea, "I got it used". and "it saves on hotels"... whatever, LOL, I'd love to see the math.
The bottom bottom line isn't how much the entry fee is...it's way more complicated. For guys who live where I do, it's cheaper by far to run Lime Rock than other tracks, even if the other entry fees were nearly free because of gas. Conversely LRP is really expensive for those distant.

I wonder that too. An extra hundred dollars here and there is nothing compared to what we're all spending on going racing. No, I don't like watching entry fees go up, but I also don't like paying for hotels and rising fuel costs, but if I want to go racing, I have to pay. We also have to remember that the sanctioning body is experiencing these same cost increases and in order to stay active, they need to make enough money to cover these costs. I won't run every race in a season because I just can't afford it, but the entry fee is not the deciding factor.

[anthony1k]

I wonder that too. An extra hundred dollars here and there is nothing compared to what we're all spending on going racing. No, I don't like watching entry fees go up, but I also don't like paying for hotels and rising fuel costs, but if I want to go racing, I have to pay. We also have to remember that the sanctioning body is experiencing these same cost increases and in order to stay active, they need to make enough money to cover these costs. I won't run every race in a season because I just can't afford it, but the entry fee is not the deciding factor.

Totally agree. OT but along the same lines, I find it surprising how few people contribute to the workers fund.

[THawkbh]

Totally agree. OT but along the same lines, I find it surprising how few people contribute to the workers fund.

Some people are just cheap and greedy.

[gran racing]

An extra hundred dollars here and there is nothing compared to what we're all spending on going racing.

If one races six races in a season, that extra hundered dollars here and there per event adds up. All a matter of perspective.

[THawkbh]

If one races six races in a season, that extra hundered dollars here and there per event adds up. All a matter of perspective.


Very good point.



I'm referring your book to someone right now. I can't believe your offering it for free. It's worth its weight in gold.

[BruceG]

I wonder that too. An extra hundred dollars here and there is nothing compared to what we're all spending on going racing. No, I don't like watching entry fees go up, but I also don't like paying for hotels and rising fuel costs, but if I want to go racing, I have to pay. We also have to remember that the sanctioning body is experiencing these same cost increases and in order to stay active, they need to make enough money to cover these costs. I won't run every race in a season because I just can't afford it, but the entry fee is not the deciding factor.

I read recently that the cost of living adjustment(COLA) is based on an index of young singles living in urban areas(not exactly the demographic for most of us. So many of the things we use and consume as racers aren't even on the Federal charts. When the government tells me that there will be no COLA for Social Security receipiants for 3 years because costs have not increased, I have to laugh. Any of you spending less for food and housing and health care, lately?....LOL. The only area of any luck is that gas has stayed down because the economy is so poor!

[gran racing]

Thank you - I really appreciate both the comment and referral.

[dickita15]

Totally agree. OT but along the same lines, I find it surprising how few people contribute to the workers fund.

There was a guy at our April drivers school who the chief instructor had to go find in the paddock because he did not bother to attend the classroom session after coming off the track and the topic was kind of important, how the upcoming practice starts were going to work.

The student said that for the money he paid he was not getting the service he felt he deserved.

[lateapex911]

You're right, it's way more complicated. I will absolutely say that in my family, how much the entrance fee is matters. Not saying that is necessarily should in some instances, but it does. I don't know how much I paid in fuel to get to Summit Point last weekend, nor do I want to know. (I just imagine Jake going to Mapquest the moment he reads this then doing his little calculation. Grrrrr.)

Since you requested....you spent about $200 getting your stuff to and from Summit, not including the gas M spent touring the area and DC. (The price of happiness)
So, that means each additional race cost $100. Or if Jerry figures out a way (he will ;)) to make LRP Regionals 2 race weekends, it's $200 more for the additional race. Still not bad, ignoring the time spent towing, etc. But it's still way more complicated. ;)


Some people are just cheap and greedy.
Really? I assumed most of us donated to the fund. I always, always (once in awhile I forget, but it's an accident) add $20 to my entry. And I feel guilty that it isn't more.


If one races six races in a season, that extra hundered dollars here and there per event adds up. All a matter of perspective.
Yea, but, each race, as jeff points out costs $1000 or so when you include all racing related expenses. (you might be more, Dave, with your incredible appetite for hubs and engines. (temp gauge working? ;) ). Your six race season runs about $7 or $8K I bet. So, yea, an extra $400 (you don't race LRP exclusively) is still $400, but a small percentage of $6-8K.


I read recently that the cost of living adjustment(COLA) is based on an index of young singles living in urban areas(not exactly the demographic for most of us. So many of the things we use and consume as racers aren't even on the Federal charts. When the government tells me that there will be no COLA for Social Security receipiants for 3 years because costs have not increased, I have to laugh. Any of you spending less for food and housing and health care, lately?....LOL. The only area of any luck is that gas has stayed down because the economy is so poor!

So, are you telling the Social Security people that racing expenses have gone up, and they should reclaculate? ;)

[gran racing]

Jake - If I had that $400, I'd be going to the Glen next weekend versus staying home. So yeah, it matters.

[THawkbh]

Thank you - I really appreciate both the comment and referral.

Your welcome. I always point people towards it when they say they want to go racing.



Really? I assumed most of us donated to the fund. I always, always (once in awhile I forget, but it's an accident) add $20 to my entry. And I feel guilty that it isn't more.

I figured that was the norm for those that actually do donate.