NHMS Cheap Date

[TimM ITB]

Hey - Is there a reason that so few ITB folks (4) are registered for this race weekend? Actually, I am curious as to why we are only at 99 - 100 cars registered at this point overall? Is it because it is only a NERRC race? Not NARRC or PRO-IT? This was always a pretty heavily subscribed race if memory serves me? Curious.

[ner88]

Does anyone actually care about NARRC? Not sure it has any effect??:shrug:
It seems, this season, that all of our registration activity happens on the last few days leading up to the event, it's early yet!:023:

[Greg Amy]

Very likely because of 26 ITB entrants for this weekend's double at Summit Point and 9 ITB entrants for the Watkins Glen double on the weekend subsequent to NHMS.

Same ole problem: Event fatigue. Too many events, too close together (geographically and chronologically), catering to too few people.

At least there's not another NJMP and/or Pro-IT event conflict this time. :shrug:

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Does anyone actually care about NARRC? Not sure it has any effect??:shrug:


It's a tough call this year as the schedule really makes it hard to compare. The biggest event is always the Triple Play I bet. High value. The lowest event is probaly the Non-NARRC single regional + Enduro. Low value.

Other events were up against Nationals and Pro IT and one weekend there was 2 competing races in Division.

Racers running the NARRC series will follow those events, plain and simple. Same with Pro IT. This year there were less events but more in conflict. Racers would really like it if the Regions like NNJR and NER would work together more unless they want to split profits.

[ner88]

I'm working very hard to avoid any conflicts but.........
What is considered a conflict?:shrug:
NJMP events? I look at the entries on our conflicting weekends and only see a few and I mean few NER racers at their event.
So, I schedule no conflicts for next season with NJ but they don't decide their Pro IT schedule until....when, last minute.
We don't want to run against the Glen and one week before or one week after????
Don't want to go against any LRP pro events because we can't get workers?????
Look at the schedule and tell me how it should work??? I sure would like to understand what will make you(everyone) happy???
Triple race weekends? Half off double dippers entry?
How was the "Non NARRC" single(with two races) and $200 (3 hour) enduro a low value event?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm working very hard to avoid any conflicts but.........
What is considered a conflict?:shrug:
NJMP events? I look at the entries on our conflicting weekends and only see a few and I mean few NER racers at their event.
So, I schedule no conflicts for next season with NJ but they don't decide their Pro IT schedule until....when, last minute.
We don't want to run against the Glen and one week before or one week after????
Don't want to go against any LRP pro events because we can't get workers?????
Look at the schedule and tell me how it should work??? I sure would like to understand what will make you(everyone) happy???
Triple race weekends? Half off double dippers entry?
How was the "Non NARRC" single(with two races) and $200 (3 hour) enduro a low value event?

I think the net/net is that most racers run between 2-4 weekends a season with some hard-core folks doing 5-8 weekends (8-10 sanctioned races). One race weekend per month seems to be maximum density.

Schedule all the races you want but we hate it when organizers come onto web forums begging for entries on weekends where there are 2 or 3 venues in Division to choose from or race weekends within 14 days of each other.

Do with that what you want.

[rhygin]

Partial hijack... but picking up at the end of the current thread...

Ah... we are getting into customer targeting and segmentation... now we are in a wheel house of mine! I lurk a lot cuz i get overwhelmed with the data and opinions people have... but this one I feel strongly about and have the professional background to have "earned the right" to talk about!

Let's use me as an example... unemployed (sorta), child care resopnsibilities, crummy trailer, no tire budget (till yesterday), no crew, MAX budget concerns, variable responsibilities.... This a profile that says that he will do a local race when he can, prolly miss one day here and there of a weekend, cannot possibly do back to back weekends, and will not travel so much as he is largely solo, but with consistency of effort he will likely be at the first and last racesw of the year. Pretty clear what I would do based on a hypothesized schedule.

I think it would be a great use of time (I can do it/help) to take a serious assessment of the customer base. I am confident that with about 20 questions with a high response rate (individuals pressuring your racing buddies to fill the thing out), there is the ability to create what would amount to a map of customer preferences across budget... travel perspectives... weekends per year... qual/racequal/race v. qual/race/race/race... track preference... consistency... series preference... short-term baby sitting, etc...

If we are able to do this on a North East basis with the MoHud, Glen, NER, etc... groups working together on this I think we can a) set a killer schedule, b) learn a lot about preferences in a more managerial significant manner than this forum (which I do find very valuable in some areas... not others), c) set the stage great ongoing discussions and potential membership evolutions, d) hell... make some money for the club by selling anomized member data (actually it would go toward my startign a tire budget). Hell... expand it to 25 questions online and we can get a GREAT directional sense from the members as to a range of elements (fresh air, ECU, HANS, etc.... ).

Think what could be possible with a "for real" survey effort.

Very formative... could be killer as I am not sure that all the voices are heard on a per dollar spent basis (or whatever metric should be used).

If something like this exists... please excuse me. I will admit that the whole review board and such I have no idea about so maybe there is something there. This needs to be formalized (Jerry... I feel for you).

Am I out of line on this thinking or should we just ask "why not?"

Cost - Time for a Survey Mokey deal... or $3k-$5k for a professionally exeucted and sliced analysis. Not me, but I know a range of vendors that kill it for that money.
BB

[Andy Bettencourt]

Interesting idea Brad. I remember a few years back the PTB wanted to modify the points structure to 'motivate' the membership to attend a 5th race as the vast majority of drivers only ran 4 races in one year. 4 races, really. Probably accomplished on 2 double weekends.

What would the 'perfect' schedule look like? Probably something slightly different for each of us. 95% of drivers don't run for a Championship and their opinion is seldon heard on that topic.

What I like about NARRC is that it's a series that can encompass 6 tracks.

[ner88]

I don't recall ever begging for entries?:shrug:
I have on some occasions mentioned registration is open but is that begging?
I do only book one event per month for NER.
Yes, as has been mentioned in the past there were conflicting events but explain how July event was against two others and yet it was NER's best attended NHMS event?
Yes, if in fact many drivers are limited to 4 or 5 events, which 4 or 5, because not many will agree on which ones.
We at NER are very fortunate to have two tracks and quite a bit of flexability in scheduling but this is not the caes in other regions. Should we then wait for everyone else to get their dates then take what's left?
We as a division have been trying to work out a National schedule and after a year have made little to no progress.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I do only book one event per month for NER.

What does that have to do with the Division? You keep confusing NER with a team effort between Regions.


We at NER are very fortunate to have two tracks and quite a bit of flexability in scheduling but this is not the caes in other regions. Should we then wait for everyone else to get their dates then take what's left?

If it makes for a better Divisional schedule, and you have the flexibilty, then YES.



We as a division have been trying to work out a National schedule and after a year have made little to no progress.

Why?

[ner88]

The regions are the division, what happens at NJ has an effect on Summit, Summit has an effect on someone else, it has to be the division if at all.

We don't need a divisional regional schedule. Other than the Glen or LRP the other tracks have no effect on NER.

Why no success, because no one is willing to address the issues for fear of loosing their date/event.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We don't need a divisional regional schedule. Other than the Glen or LRP the other tracks have no effect on NER.

I disagree. Pocono and NJMP are in play bro.


Why no success, because no one is willing to address the issues for fear of loosing their date/event.

And until someone gives, we will be having this debate for years.

[Doc Bro]

I'm with AB and GA on this. Business 101. Supply and demand. Too much supply to meet the limited demand, especially in a retracted economy. Also, why would someone want to run 3 races at NHMS except convenience or points? For my personal schedule I'd skip 3 NHMS dates to go to Summit or Mid-O or the Glen and be ahaed in time and money. I think you'll see more and more drivers doing this. ...Going for quality over quantity.

R

[lateapex911]

I'm not your typical customer, as I live near NYC, not in the Boston centric area, but my 'considerations" for tracks to attend include:

Summit Point
The Glen
Pocono
NJMP(s)
Lime Rock
Palmer(?)
NHMS

I'm MORE likely to hit the Glen,than NHMS, as it's a great track, and only adds a few towing hours.
But, I like the NER approach to double and triple races that is lacking from the regions that run the Glen, typically.

Last year I branched out. Honestly, I can only take the transitions at NHMS for so long, so I added Summit and VIR to the schedule. ;)

Some reasons I attend a race are intangible, at least from a survey standpoint, like, likelihood of good competition (a reason I went to Summit). Or the likelihood of my friends being there (the reason I'd go to NHMS). While you can have questions like that on a survey, you can't predict when my friends will be. Still Brads nice volunteering is something I'd take up as a Regional grand poobah. it might shed light on the subject from a different angle which is never bad.


But, bottom line Jerry is that yes, conflicts DO have an effect, even if they are far away, although those effects might be small. (last year I had to chose between NHMS events and other (NJMP, Summit, Glen) and chose them instead)

Just one data point, of course.

And I certainly understand the Regions need to look out for it's bottom line first and foremost.

[gran racing]

Up to 28 b cars. test day, then three days of racing (entry fee $375 for all 3 races). Lots of activities planned for kids, adults. There are a lot of quite fast b cars registered. You chose wrong Tim. :)

[StephF]

I disagree. Pocono and NJMP are in play bro.



And until someone gives, we will be having this debate for years.


Hammer, meet nail...


I'm not your typical customer, as I live near NYC, not in the Boston centric area, but my 'considerations" for tracks to attend include:

Summit Point
The Glen
Pocono
NJMP(s)
Lime Rock
Palmer(?)
NHMS

I'm MORE likely to hit the Glen,than NHMS, as it's a great track, and only adds a few towing hours.
But, I like the NER approach to double and triple races that is lacking from the regions that run the Glen, typically.

This.

[dickita15]

I disagree. Pocono and NJMP are in play bro.



And until someone gives, we will be having this debate for years.

There are quite a few drives that unlike you do one or two tracks. There are probably 100 who only race at NH. There are probably 200 who only race at summit. A little less than once a month at NH does not seem excessive to me. Jerry has gotten some flex with NH so next year the schedule is looking like less conflicts.

The reason IMHO that the division has not been able to make any progress on the divisions National race schedule is that pretty much all of the nine regions are only looking at what is good for their event. NER made a proposal to run a national every other year is most other tracks did as well. no interest.

[Andy Bettencourt]

And Jerry has stated to me and I am sure plenty of others while we bench-race on this topic that the NHMS races can stand out their own financially with virtually no trouble.

It's the annual Lime Rock discussion where all of this comes into play, especially when NJMP is now pulling entrants.

[dickita15]

And at Lime Rock there are now 3 SCCA weekends instead of 4 last year and 5 a couple of years ago. That sounds like the regions involved responded to the market.

[dickita15]

Honestly, I can only take the transitions at NHMS for so long,

Just to get the rumor mill going that may be a lot better next year, is so lap records set at cheap date could stand forever.

[ner88]

With all due respect to those entering into this discussion.
I would not consider any of you(Doc, Jake, Greg, Dave and Andy) regulars at NHMS.
Whatever your reasons for going elsewhere you are welcome to them, I have a large group that consider it home. Personally, I see no reason to make the trip to NJMP.
As for LRP, we all work very hard to avoid conflicts there, all of our tracks are effected by LRP events, even their pro events.

[Andy Bettencourt]

With all due respect to those entering into this discussion.
I would not consider any of you(Doc, Jake, Greg, Dave and Andy) regulars at NHMS.
Whatever your reasons for going elsewhere you are welcome to them, I have a large group that consider it home. Personally, I see no reason to make the trip to NJMP.
As for LRP, we all work very hard to avoid conflicts there, all of our tracks are effected by LRP events, even their pro events.

It's because we are looking at this from a Divisional perspective and you are looking at it through NER-glasses.

People who stay at just NHMS do so because it's close, cheap and a good value. They have no ambition to run for points, just to run a few races.

We know NER can stand on it's own with it's own 2-track series that is populated by people who mostly run NHMS exclusively.

[ner88]

I've got the right glasses on Andy, you're missing the point.
There will always be a few chasing points but my responsibility is to the region not the less loyal points chasers.
When or if the division starts controlling the regional events I will walk away, we will all lose because it can't and won't be done fairly.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I've got the right glasses on Andy, you're missing the point.
There will always be a few chasing points but my responsibility is to the region not the less loyal points chasers.
When or if the division starts controlling the regional events I will walk away, we will all lose because it can't and won't be done fairly.

Actually Jerry, I didn't say you had the 'wrong' galsses on, just NER-glasses - and that is fine.

The point is, and always will, be that we as drivers can only go to so many races. You are responsible for NER and that is fine but when you have competing event weekends. Simple.

[TimM ITB]

Dave! what are you referring to??? is there a race at a different track with that kind of ITB population coming up on 9/11-12? Inquiring minds............???

[lateapex911]

it's actually this weekend, Labor Day. It's the big race at Summit. A traditional big deal. Test day, and three races, I went last year, it was pretty cool. Long tow for us, but the amount of track time amortized that aspect.

I can't go this year (no motor and a wedding) but it's good stuff. Dave set a record last year on Sat, but it was broken Sun by Tristian Herbert. Ever seen a Firearrow? They have TWO, LOL.

[gran racing]

Jerry, I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong nor do I think Summit is hurting nhms. Just giving Tim a hard time. The summit event is great! Wish you were here Jake!! Well over 300 registered.

[lateapex911]

Jerry, I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong nor do I think Summit is hurting nhms. Just giving Tim a hard time. The summit event is great! Wish you were here Jake!! Well over 300 registered.

Sounds awesome. Next time I want to bring a good car ....

[Doc Bro]

With all due respect to those entering into this discussion.
I would not consider any of you(Doc, Jake, Greg, Dave and Andy) regulars at NHMS.
Whatever your reasons for going elsewhere you are welcome to them, I have a large group that consider it home. Personally, I see no reason to make the trip to NJMP.
As for LRP, we all work very hard to avoid conflicts there, all of our tracks are effected by LRP events, even their pro events.


Actually Jerry up until this season I think I only missed 1 regional at NHMS in the last 5 years. A bunch of them I double dipped on too. You are right everyone has a myriad of reasons to go to, or not go to a race. I do agree that some of the formats we run at NHMS are great....I wish other regions would do the same. But, at the end of the day, for me, it's also about the track, and I just think NHMS can't compete with true road courses. While I respect that you see no reason to go to NJMP, it is hands down a better track (both are for that matter) than NHMS....unarguable.


R

[ner88]

I know most of you were regulars at NHMS for a long time and now you have found a new place to play.
But, evertime someone questions race counts someone says too many races or conflicts.
Yet, I continue to monitor entries and see very few crossovers.
Unless NJMP closes I don't expect to see some of you at NHMS.
For NER to cancel or avoid all events makes no sense.
You will still not come to NHMS on an off weekend or put it on your schedule.
So, we will continue to schedule events carefully and a large number of racers will come.
See you all at LRP in October:D

[StephF]

OK, enough of the politcal scheduling stuff....we are a week out...who's coming?
I heard a rumor of an actual honest-to-God party scheduled? With like, music and stuff too? Wow....where did that come from? (I like, I like...)

And what the hell is "hummish"?
:blink:

[dtanthon]

You mean Mark "Hummmisshhhh" Sobel, if he is in charge of the party it will be a good one, I can hear the stories now......

I heard the same thing and also got an invite to come up and flag. Would love to but actually have a Saturday set aside to work on my racecar, be there for the JRRC.

[gran racing]

For NER to cancel or avoid all events makes no sense.

Jerry, this is the case for several regions and not just NER. I view regions and how they operate similar to a franchise. They all are part of the bigger corporation, but are in no doubt in competition with each other sometimes, too often, shoot each other in the foot. The New England area (not saying NER region specifically) has quite a few regions and tracks. It is quite difficult the way things are organized to manage everything, deal with politics and egos, and run it all well.

[StephF]

You mean Mark "Hummmisshhhh" Sobel, if he is in charge of the party it will be a good one, I can hear the stories now......

I heard the same thing and also got an invite to come up and flag. Would love to but actually have a Saturday set aside to work on my racecar, be there for the JRRC.


Oh, ok, I was afraid we would be fed bagels with some sort of green stuff smeared all over them instead...or wait...isn't that 'hummus'?
:)

[Marianne]

Well this will be a party weekend so be prepared! There is the usual BBQ for Cheap Date and there will be a band - all under the canopy that is near start finish in the infield.
Then there is the Hummisshh party. So as not to interfer with the band the Hummisshh party is near NASCAR 2. Movies, munchies, drink (bring some of your favorite) The theme is heaven and hell! Heck some of us will have "theme" outfits on. I will be completely out of character and go for the hell portion, Use your imagination. May be a bit too much for some children (no not as bad as the old Cheap Date). Everyone is invited and it will start after the BBQ and some of the music. One of the last parties we had at NHMS was a Toga party! Now that was not to be missed! Got questions ask away!

Marianne

[Greg Amy]

I've got two garages reserved at NHMS this weekend, #20 and 21. Won't be using them. Anyone want them, or should I release 'em back to the track?

PM me.

GA

[StephF]

So I'm stuck here at work until late afternoon. Perfect conditions to set a track record right now! Anyone out there wired in to give an update?

[rhygin]

Ok... quick update and the beer/sleepy meter is working in the direction that it should.

Looks like props to Dan Sheppard in IT-7 winning out the weekend and taking the NER points in style (big style) with one set of tires for the year... niiiiiice....

Props to Step van why Funk who did the ITC NER points championship.... niiiiice...

Late news: There will be either a 435lb addition to Blanscombe's Acura or his right foot will be cut off! Nice Drive!!

More later!

[StephenB]

Congratulations to Tim Mullan on an awesome weekend sweep! Tim and Tom had some great racing and the were flying. ( in the low 18'S!) It was really a shame that the same old ITS cars keep getting in the way. I wont say to much since I want to try and be polite... bit damn they really did completely destroy one of the best races for 1st in ITB.

Congratulations to my buddy Tim as well getting into the 19's this weekend. Interesting data point was that on roughly the same age tires he was .3 seconds faster with 225 tires than with a 205. (Both hossiers not exactly sure on the number of heat cycles but if I guessed the 225 set was definitely worse.)

Great weather for fast racing and a great end to the year at NHMS!

STEPHEN

PS: the rumor is that IF you take the oval flatout (in ITB) you are almost a complete second faster! Wow... I still haven't manned up to do it but it was amazing how much faster Tim, Tim, and Tom were than almost any other ITR or ITS car was in turn 1 and 2!

[lateapex911]

It was really a shame that the same old ITS cars keep getting in the way. I wont say to much since I want to try and be polite... bit damn they really did completely destroy one of the best races for 1st in ITB.




Something something-did anyone talk to them?- something something.

If yes, ...then maybe being polite isn't appropriate anymore.
If no....then....


If you're in ITS or ITR, and you're around and in the ITB cars battling for trophies, or you even think you might be, either get your shit together and start driving, or back off and let them race. Enough of this crap.
(if you're a rookie, and you're new to the game, fair enough, but I've seen this from guys what have a decade under their belts. not cool)

[lawtonglenn]

.

I have posted two HD videos from the three races at NHMS two weeks ago. One is
only 6 minutes, and shows the highlights (lowlights) from the Saturday
race and the Sunday PM race.

The other is a full 18 min video from the Sunday AM race where Brian Bagnall
and I decided to start from the back, and agreed not to pass anyone until turn 3.

In the highlights video there is clear and obvious evidence of my gapping the start...
which led directly to a higher initial speed at green...I was correctly penalized,
and I apologized profusely...kids don't do this at home :)

If the video looks choppy, click the HD icon (lower right) toggling the HD off

http://vimeo.com/lawtonglenn

.

[RSTPerformance]

Glenn-

I am glad that the start issue didn't ruin your weekend, and it was a great race from the back!

[lawtonglenn]

pfffft ...ruin MY weekend? ...it was MY fault!

:D