Split Starts & Stewards...

[RSTPerformance]

I have a couple questions...

First, do you like split starts?

Second, how many of you have tried to get the stewards to have a split start without sucess?

I love split starts and I know I have tried to get split starts for race groups as a driver, as crew, and as a steward. It seems that in most (not all) races I go to stewards don't want to deal with either the complexity or the changes in schedule and generally deny any thoughts of a request.

I figured out a way to beat the system!!! Have the suplimental regulations that are written by the comp board include split starts. If this is done, the stewards have to deal with it. I actually say that with a good tone... Basically if the stewards know ahead of time then they can build it in to the weekends plan and will not have a problem making it happen. I presented this thought to have the supps include a schedule that specifies that certain groups will have split starts. Examples include seperating out classes such as SRF and SM. Also seperating IT grouped classes such a. ITB & ITS/ITR. The thought was well recieved. So this brings up my third question...

How would you word the Supps to specify split starts?

Raymond "I need to get further away from my dad on the track!" Blethen

[Knestis]

Nobody likes surprises - particularly if they have a lot of balls in the air and people pulling them in different directions with requests.

If you want a split start, start asking about it early so folks can plan around it. The worst situation is when someone goes all ad hoc on our butts, and changes some standard practice at the last minute. That's guaranteed to create a problem and in this game, those problems can get costly.

Personally, I think they're crap. It's multi-class racing and we should play the cards we're dealt. Everyone's in the same boat, even if it can be annoying sometimes. Dealing with different types of cars, traffic, and all that is part of the game. If I can deal with it better than my competitors, I gain an advantage but that's all down to skill. Sorry - I meant old age and treachery...

K

[Peter Olivola]

From the 2009 June Sprints schedule:

2:00 PM
RACE 1 - 13 Laps - Split Start SM & SSB/SSC/T3

[CRallo]

Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what

[Knestis]

Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what

...which is one of a list of things that has to be done well if you go that route. It's mandatory for someone to *really* watch that second group AND have the stones to penalize anyone who jumps - including the "pole sitter." That's not something we tend to do very well.

K

[ronin12]

Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what

the stewards were informed of the F5 leaving before the event, but i guess the plans were already in progress. As for the FV's they had quite a talking to before hand about behaving because they were the ones requesting the split start and it was in their best interest to make sure it went well

[callard]

I'm with Kirk. It's called racing. If you want split starts, go rally.
Chuck

[tom91ita]

at the risk of JINXing this thread, have the top two in your class hang back a bit to form your own group.....

depending on the track and the size of the total race group, it is likely you are beyond a turn from the starter's view anyways....

this worked out for one of the races for the ITA/ITC race group at the IT fest this year.

[jjjanos]

Personally, I think they're crap. It's multi-class racing and we should play the cards we're dealt. Everyone's in the same boat, even if it can be annoying sometimes. Dealing with different types of cars, traffic, and all that is part of the game. If I can deal with it better than my competitors, I gain an advantage but that's all down to skill. Sorry - I meant old age and treachery...

K

It's multiclass racing because of time constraints, not design. In an ideal world, every class would have its own race group, but until we invent a time-space warp machine, we are limited to the available daylight hours.

When ITC/SRX7 were grouped together in DC Region, ITC requested a split start because we were tired of having ITC cars damaged on the first lap by the rear of the other class -- either through collateral damage of RX7 on RX7 violence or trying to drive through an ITC car.


I'm with Kirk. It's called racing. If you want split starts, go rally.
Chuck

Our group has the split-start because, at the time, the bottom 50% of the "faster" class was running times slower than the top 50% of the "slower" class and the slower class drivers were in open rebellion over having the other class shoved onto us in the middle of the season. Some of the faster class cars (read high HP) but slower drivers (read parked in corners) were known to engage themselves in racing for position with 2 or more slower class cars (engaged in an actual race). I.e. Common courtesy is that a driver in a faster classed car who is not actively engaged in a class battle to get out of the way of an in-class battle by falling back if he does not have the speed to pull away from the slower cars. The drivers in the faster class had a reputation of not showing such courtesy and forgetting in which class they were racing.

Given the increase in ITS laptimes, it probably is time to consider dropping the split start.

[GKR_17]

at the risk of JINXing this thread, have the top two in your class hang back a bit to form your own group.....

Not that the officials always follow the GCR, but the starter should not throw the green in that case.

Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.

[joeg]

Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.

Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.

[jjjanos]

Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.

I guess it depends on whether you want to pick your way through them individually and when the nerves are settled from the start or when they are in a bunch and hyped up on green flag fever.

Either way, the slower class race leaders are going to need to get around the "faster" class cars. If there are large HP differences, the faster class cars gridded right behind the race leaders will win the race to T1.


Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.

So is being situationally aware and not mucking up someone's race when you don't have one. Sometimes a class has it, sometimes they don't.


Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.

Length of track doesn't matter. The desire of the second group to continue with split starts is what makes it work -- that and start judges waiting to call jumps.

[callard]

Not that the officials always follow the GCR, but the starter should not throw the green in that case.

Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.

That works both ways......

[JoshS]

I guess it depends on whether you want to pick your way through them individually and when the nerves are settled from the start or when they are in a bunch and hyped up on green flag fever.

Why would you be picking through them when they are in a bunch? Are you doing "split grids"?

Seems to me that if you are not doing split starts, then the only sensible thing to do is to grid all cars according to qualifying time, regardless of class.

[jjjanos]

Why would you be picking through them when they are in a bunch? Are you doing "split grids"?

Two classes: Faster should be running much faster than the slower. Faster class has gobs more HP and torque than slower class.

Reality: Faster class leaders
Slower Class Bunch #1 about 1 second slower
Faster class Grp#2 about 0.8- 1.5 seconds slower
Slower Class Grp #2 about 0.5 - 1 seconds slower
Faster class Grp #3 about 1+ seconds slower
Tail end of slower class...

On the 1800+ foot race to turn 1, the slower group of "faster" cars are going to leapfrog the cohort gridded to their front because anyone can go fast in a straight line. The race for the slower class will be decided by whoever didn't get stuck behind the slower "faster" cars. Repeat for the next pairings.

Worse yet, if the guys running 6th/7th in the faster class get intermixed with the slower class, you'll have a situation where 3rd-5th in the slower class watch the race leaders walk away because their stuck behind cars they outqualified, but who won't GTF outta the way. Yeah, thats r.a.c.i.n.g, but it's random and breaks up a pack of 6+ cars that are capable of fighting for the class win the entire race.

It's not particularly enjoyable to watch your race vanish in the distance when you get stuck behind a car (not in your class) with a hell of lot more straight line speed, that you outqualified by a second and who is fighting tooth and nail to keep you behind him.

[jimmyc]

Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.

Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.

Disagreed...

We do split starts at every race (nasa norcal), we do it at thunderhill (3 mile) and Infenion (~2miles).

Both places are just fine. Some times we have 3 starts.. again in the 4 or 5 years i've been racing i've never had a problem with split starts.


But it does take a bit of coordination... And a bit of knowledge about the classes/drivers. And we use more then 1 pace car to keep things good for the second flag.

[JoshS]

On the 1800+ foot race to turn 1, the slower group of "faster" cars are going to leapfrog the cohort gridded to their front because anyone can go fast in a straight line. The race for the slower class will be decided by whoever didn't get stuck behind the slower "faster" cars. Repeat for the next pairings.

Yes, you are right, I was not thinking of this effect ... I guess that's the advantage of being in the fastest class in the race group for the last few years. I have raced in the slowest class of the race group too, so I know the effect you describe.

[Butch Kummer]

We run split starts a lot at Road Atlanta, particulary for the ARRC since it helps preserve the "National Championship" flavor of the event. We use two pace cars and the second group is about 25-30 seconds behind the first group when the first group gets the green. When done correctly, the fast cars of the second group don't start catching the laggards of the first group until 5-6 laps into the race. By that time both groups have had some time to get things sorted out.

The downside is the second group is pretty confident they'll get the green if the first group does, so sometimes they'll jump the start. Our stewards have been really good about black-flagging offenders, however, so that doesn't happen very often.

[RSTPerformance]

I am supprised at how many people don't like split starts! How many people are or have raced at the front of the slower class in a race and enjoyed dicing it up with the slower "faster class" cars? Also I was thinking about the grouped that run with either production cars and thos that run with SRF once in a while...

Interesting replies... Thanks :)

Raymond "

[Knestis]

I am supprised at how many people don't like split starts! How many people are or have raced at the front of the slower class in a race and enjoyed dicing it up with the slower "faster class" cars? Also I was thinking about the grouped that run with either production cars and thos that run with SRF once in a while...

Interesting replies... Thanks :)

Raymond "

Done it pretty much full time since I built the first Golf six years ago.

I guess I'm old-school (or just old) in some respects. On the other hand, I view issues like traffic as an opportunity to be better than someone I'm racing with. If I'm in a race for position and both I and my competition have to deal with a slow ITS car in our midst, the one who does the best job of that will win.

I also view split starts as yet another way we come up with rules to avoid enforcing rules. We do them as often as not for the reason JJJ expresses above - because drivers at the back of (whatever class) are being idiots. Well, what you got there is what we old farts call a "driver problem" - not a grid problem. Rather than going to the stewards with a plan to run away from the knuckleheads, you should go to them about the knuckleheads. What happens when one of those IT7 drivers buys an ITC Civic? They're no longer stupid?

And I call a friendly BS on the "time constraint" argument. Sports car racing is a multi-class deal because its roots are in endurance events. I suppose one could argue that they would have had multiple 24 heures du mans each year, for all the different classes through the decades, but c'mon... ALMS could declare next season that they are going to a one-class structure. GA could kill off the GT cars. But they're not going to, and not because the only other option is to run separate races for the different classes...

K

EDIT - It occurs to me that split starts are just another manifestation of Me First. People willing to ask for organizational changes rather than deal with their own issues by compromising and playing nice with others. Wusses.

[gran racing]

At the ARRC, I like having split starts. Most other times, I don't really care that much either way.

[jjjanos]

If I'm in a race for position and both I and my competition have to deal with a slow ITS car in our midst, the one who does the best job of that will win.

You are assuming that skill has anything to do with whether you are the front or the back of the sandwich.


Well, what you got there is what we old farts call a "driver problem" - not a grid problem. Rather than going to the stewards with a plan to run away from the knuckleheads, you should go to them about the knuckleheads. What happens when one of those IT7 drivers buys an ITC Civic? They're no longer stupid?1. You are assuming that going to the stewards wasn't tried and did not result in a slap on the wrist.
2. Path of least resistance, yes. Solves the problem without having cars torn up and without wasting hours in the tower with little effectiveness.
3. Pretty much yes -- certain classes attract certain types. Disposable cars = carnage. Put a special me driver in a car he spent a year building and he's suddenly much more sane then when he is in a car that can be replaced by the next race.


And I call a friendly BS on the "time constraint" argument. Sports car racing is a multi-class deal because its roots are in endurance events.True -- give me a 2 hour race and I won't care about knuckleheads ruining the race in my class. Problem is, I've got a 20-30 minute sprint.

I also believe that the pro sportscar bodies are moving towards split starts....


EDIT - It occurs to me that split starts are just another manifestation of Me First. People willing to ask for organizational changes rather than deal with their own issues by compromising and playing nice with others. Wusses.Nope. It hasn't been the class that plays nice with others that, historically, been the problem. When ITC/RX7 had the split starts, the Driver Rep tried the talk to the driver route, he tried the talk to the driver with his rep route, we tried the throw paper route... at that point there's very few options on the table other than a late night raid to disable the offending cars or gain some separation.

In ITS/ITB, there was history from the previous ITS grouping that talking to drivers did not work.

And what do you suggest be done about a driver ruining a class battle because he's too slow to maintain contact with his own class? Throw an unsportsmanlike conduct protest at him? That's probably a hair above a washer bottle protest.

[Russ Myers]

It IS called racing. I have been that car that handles real good down the straight and wouldn't turn in a 40 acre field. I have been responsible for messing up your race. But MY stragity called for me to put you between me and my nearest competitor. He has to pass you to get to me, and if you are trying to get by me, then he has a harder time of it. I'm racing too, and I use whatever means are at my disposal to finish ahead of so and so. Now when I am all by myself, no problem moving over. So just because you are being raced hard by someone not of your class, it don't mean he's an idiot.

Russ

[lawtonglenn]

....GA could kill off the GT cars....


I didn't know he had that kind of power :shrug:

[robits325is]

Just do this:

http://jalopnik.com/5620185/the-greatest-pass-in-racing-history-is-actually-a-jump

[jjjanos]

It IS called racing. I have been that car that handles real good down the straight and wouldn't turn in a 40 acre field. I have been responsible for messing up your race. But MY stragity called for me to put you between me and my nearest competitor. He has to pass you to get to me, and if you are trying to get by me, then he has a harder time of it. I'm racing too, and I use whatever means are at my disposal to finish ahead of so and so. Now when I am all by myself, no problem moving over. So just because you are being raced hard by someone not of your class, it don't mean he's an idiot.

Russ

Correct, he probably isn't an idiot, he's probably just an asshole.

If someone isn't in the heat of a class battle and fucks up the battle for a class podium, he is an asshole.

If someone is fighting for 8th place in a 10-car field and fucks up the battle for a class podium, he is an asshole.

If someone decides to pick up his pace by 3 seconds a lap when the "slower" car who is running 4 seconds a lap tries to lap him, and takes defensive lines entering and through the corner, he is an asshole.

There is a difference between using other classes when the order is ITG/ITE/ITG/ITE and when the order is ITG/ITE/ITG GAP ITE. In fact, if someone is fighting me in the second case, he scores a two-fer as he is both an idiot and an asshole.

While he's busy losing time keeping me behind him -- my race is vanishing in the distance and his race is getting closer... and when his competition closes on my arse, if I'm not being a jerk, I'll move aside because my race is gone in the distance.

[Butch Kummer]

There's another side to that story as well.

I tend to be a catcher more than a catchee, and when I'm coming up to lap people I try to be VERY cognizant of not disrupting their battles. If I'm running by myself and come up on two (or more) guys vying for position in their class I'll time my pass to get all of them at once rather than picking them off one at a time. Of course if I've got someone in my class on my ass then all bets are off. I'll use whatever means I have available to keep them there even if it DOES mess up your race! :)

Personally I don't like split starts that much but I recognize that some/many people do. Again we use them a lot at the ARRC because of the nature of the event, but other times there's needs to be a VERY compelling reason for doing so.

[Gary L]

Just do this:

http://jalopnik.com/5620185/the-greatest-pass-in-racing-history-is-actually-a-jump

Cool! But if you watch the end of the video, the passee apparently repasses the passor in the next turn. I'm thinkin' the passor scared himself so bad he called it quits. :D

Meanwhile, back on topic, out here in the wild, wild Midwest Division, we run all IT classes in one group. That's right... ITC/B/7/A/S/R/E... combined. These are typically 25-35 car fields, and I guarantee you that (as an ITB driver), I almost always have to deal with ITA/ITS cars, while trying to stay up with (and sometimes, although rarely, ahead of :)) the likes of Albin and Hemmingson. It's called road racing boys and girls; out-of-class challenges are part of the deal, IMO.

[StephenB]

I think ITS/R with ITB in the northeast is a complete shit show. ALMOST 50% of the races in the last 9yrs. has been decided by the traffic of ITS and ITR cars running similar lap times of the B cars. PRO-IT had the same issue with ITB and all the miatas. Its time for a change. If we are endurance racing not sprint racing then I agree we do not need split starts. In a sprint race with less then 20laps you get screwed real fast.

Stephen

[StephenB]

Cool! But if you watch the end of the video, the passee apparently repasses the passor in the next turn. I'm thinkin' the passor scared himself so bad he called it quits. :D

Meanwhile, back on topic, out here in the wild, wild Midwest Division, we run all IT classes in one group. That's right... ITC/B/7/A/S/R/E... combined. These are typically 25-35 car fields, and I guarantee you that (as an ITB driver), I almost always have to deal with ITA/ITS cars, while trying to stay up with (and sometimes, although rarely, ahead of :)) the likes of Albin and Hemmingson. It's called road racing boys and girls; out-of-class challenges are part of the deal, IMO.

This is option number 2 that I would be in favor of here in the northeast. Run all IT together and lengthen the race. Having to IT groups with less than 20 cars is a waist of track time. Kudos to your peers for running everyone together!
Edit: yes I am contradicting myself but that is because I would rather have a full field to run with BUT if we are running only 20 or less cars make it a better race for those racing and give us a split start.

[JoshS]

Meanwhile, back on topic, out here in the wild, wild Midwest Division, we run all IT classes in one group. That's right... ITC/B/7/A/S/R/E... combined. These are typically 25-35 car fields.

We do that too in San Francisco Region, although just the GCR classes, not IT7/ITE. Actually we also combine FP/HP in there but we rarely have more than 2 cars in those classes combined. So it's ITR/ITS/ITA/ITB/ITC/FP/HP. Field sizes are usually around 50, but it's as low as 35 sometimes and occasionally up to 60.

Split starts hurt the cars at the front of the group, since they end up in traffic much sooner than they otherwise would. My races now (being at the front of the group) usually have two phases -- the first half of the race, when my class is all together, and the second half, when we have caught the tail end of the field and the race is really all about getting through slower traffic. With a split start, that fun first-half would be much shorter.

[gran racing]

Much of this is track dependant.


I think ITS/R with ITB in the northeast is a complete shit show.

Running at Lime Rock which is a momentum track, yes, many of the mid-pack ITS cars can make it interesting. I've even had an ITS guy tell me that I wouldn't let him by. I was in 1st place with him behind me, then 2nd place ITB behind him. The ITS car wasn't close to winning, he couldn't pass me on the straights and I wasn't blocking although didn't pull over and slow down, and I wanted to keep him inbetween. He should have let the 2nd place ITB car by. ITS cars most certainly impact the ITB race but even with a split start, I'm not so sure how different things would be.

The Glen which is more of a power track, most ITS/R cars and get enough distance between us B cars based on power differences.

It can be frustrating to see your competitors drive off while being stuck behind a slower ITS car who won't let you by, out powers you on the straight and bogs in the turns.

[steve b]

I think the ITS/ITB split starts benefit the front running ITB cars and have little or no effect on anyone else.

Yes the front running ITS cars reach the slow ITB cars earlier. But they are still sorted out by then and the speed difference between a front running ITS and a slower ITB is so great that they should have no problem getting around.

Slow ITS cars and fast ITB cars is where the problem is. They shouldn't even see eachother on a split start if they are running approximately the same lap times. (so mission accomplished)

As one of the slower ITB cars, I run the risk of giving up an extra lap on a split start but that's the price I pay until I get faster and is certainly not reason enough for the front running B cars to have their races messed up.

[jjjanos]

As one of the slower ITB cars, I run the risk of giving up an extra lap on a split start but that's the price I pay until I get faster and is certainly not reason enough for the front running B cars to have their races messed up.

Hey, I watched you until diaper duty called half-way through the last MARRS and I wouldn't describe you as being one of the slower ITB cars!

[Eagle7]

I've got two recent experiences where I had to consider what to do about the traffic behind me.

Last year I was running 2nd in ITS when I flatspotted a tire. Major vibration which slowed me down a little. I saw the two ITA leaders coming nose to tail with a little more than one lap to go. I gladly eased off a little and took the wide line so that they could both get by without impacting their race. Little did I know that 3rd place in ITS was part of their freight train. He probably would have gotten by anyway, but that sure made it easy for him.

This year at the IT-Fest, I somehow lost the stones to keep the pace. I was slower than the mid-pack ITB cars. In Sunday morning's qualifying race, there were three of them stuck behind me. I tried to figure out how to manage that, without succeeding. They'd catch me one or two corners before a straightaway, then I'd pull a country mile on them after the twisties. I figured I'd have to run half throttle for half a lap if I pulled over to let them by, and that didn't seem too appealing at the time. I tracked down the one behind me immediately after the session and apologized profusely, explaining my confusion about how to "do the right thing". He figured if I had just pulled over in one corner I never would have seen them again. I don't think it was quite that simple.

[lateapex911]

I think ITS/R with ITB in the northeast is a complete shit show. ALMOST 50% of the races in the last 9yrs. has been decided by the traffic of ITS and ITR cars running similar lap times of the B cars. PRO-IT had the same issue with ITB and all the miatas. Its time for a change. If we are endurance racing not sprint racing then I agree we do not need split starts. In a sprint race with less then 20laps you get screwed real fast.

Stephen

I've watched from the hill at Lime Rock how the ITB guys get the dick sandwich from ITS cars. I watched one RX-7 repeatedly screw up an ITB leader once with a chop to the apex that I would have considered his fault if there had been contact, but the ITB guy ran over the inside curb and jumped all over the brakes. THAT really helped his lap time entering the second longest straight of the track. I certainly see the issue.

As an instructor, I emphasize to my students to be aware of who and what they are racing. I suggest they should let a slower class car go by if it's a leader....then ease off the throttle and follow them...they might learn something. And if you can't stay ahead of a car TWO classes behind, you have issues, so learning might be a good thing.

Stephen, if I had been the ITB guy who got balked repeatedly, I would have had a stern word with the 10th place ITS car. Do you know if you or any ITB guys have had direct discussions with the offending ITS guys? I know I wanted to go have a chat with the RX-7 driver, but felt it wasn't my place....

[StephenB]

Jake,

in the past I personally have talked to the drivers but to be honest I was never really "stern" and certainly never threatened a protest to any ITR or S drivers. I think that most of the B guys around here are nonconfrontational and other than comments to eachother and in impound I dont see anyone going up to anyone one on one and probably not up to the tower. We do continue to laugh after we see the grid and wonder how some of those R & S cars are so slow... then we get on the track and realize why! I think ITB drivers in our area use the cool down lap to cool down! I remind myself all the time this is for fun and if they dont hit me and damage my car i usually am cooled off by the time i get in. In the rain it gets even more exciting since the B cars are faster than almost all R and S cars in the northeast.

I know if you dont talk to them they wont know but reality is that most that are racing back with us are either arrogant, learning, or they aren't going to be around in a week or 2. I like the idea of split starts because it keeps it fun and cuts out the unwanted drama.

Stephen

PS : next year I will probably regret saying all this as I am sure Raymond will bring this back up if I am slower than him!

[RSTPerformance]

I have had words with ITS/ITR cars and they havnt gone well. The reality is no rules say that a car out of class needs to let another car go... And I agree, I am the first person who will enjoy racing with anyone in any class. Unfortunatly some NOT ALL ITS/ITR cars that can't keep up tend to be a little behind the learning curb but think they can hit the Apex every time. I have been spoken to for speaking up as I am a steward and I am suposed to know better than start drama... Not sure I agree but I can say most of the stewards will not support a slower car complaining about a faster car whether it is an ITB driver complaining about an ITS car or an AS driver complaining about a GT1 car. To many people (be it stewards or drivers) don't understand the differnce between a fast lap and driving in traffic. One good lap on the results does not show/prove anything about someones ability to drive IMO.

Raymond "thanks for the feedback!" Blethen

[jumbojimbo]

...Split starts hurt the cars at the front of the group, since they end up in traffic much sooner than they otherwise would...

Well, that's a matter of perspective. Split starts hurt the FASTEST class at the front of the group. If you're running more than two classes then the leaders in the fastest class get the benefit and the fasters guys in ALL the other classes feel the same pain dealing with faster class slower cars. Not every fast class gets the benefit, only the faster class does.

You're worried about hitting traffic SOONER, whereas every other class STARTS wtih traffic on lap 1.

Granted, split starts aren't feasable in run groups with 3, 4, 5 classes. And I tend to agree the complicatons and risks associated with split starts are problematic. But I'm in ITC and when our class gets screwed in one way or another in 50% of races, I don't feel much sympathy for the ITA cars that are going to catch me 4 laps sooner due to a split start. Especially when our fields are sometimes just as large as B and A or even SM.

"I'm in a fast class and we've had the benefit of unimpeded races for the last 20 years, we need to maintain the status quo." That arguement is a non-starter for me. Safety, yes. Complications, yes. Only the fastest class has a right to better races, no.

I really appreciated the effort the ITA cars made at IT Fest to not mess up the ITC races. During the Sunday morning race the ITA leader actually chose not to pass several ITC cars on the last lap just to let us race one more lap. Sadly several of us still saw the checkered flag and thought it was for us and didn't race that one more lap. Doh, lesson learned.

[gran racing]

Oh man, I should never admit to this one and certainly didn't tell Gulick this one!!


I dont see anyone going up to anyone one on one and probably not up to the tower.

I spoke up to a guy a national race this year during an impound all. The guy was unbelivealbly slow, which in itself isn't a big problem. The guy would completely block every freaking car, be totally clueless, and drove like to total jerk. Fortunately as annoyed as I was and seriously wanted to hit him when on track (he had essentially no bumper so it would have damaged his car quite a bit), I approached him in a nice manner. Note to self: Be certain to speak with the right driver. Doh!! Seriously, two small British cars that look like each other AND both are actually working? So glad I was nice in my approach. LOL! After all of that, I didn't bother speak with the guy I meant to. But wait!! I did manage to back up into the innocent guys car when leaving impound. Oh yeah, he loved me.

[ShelbyRacer]

Note to self: don't park behind Dave in impound at the MARRS race this weekend... :)

Being a current mid-pack ITB car at Summit, I like the split-starts for ITS/ITB. When we didn't have them (and this also can be an issue during qualifying- but I can fix that), several ITS cars wound up back with us and it can get annoying. We still had an issue with an SSC car last year, but I guess it will always be something. At least with the SSC car, I theoretically have a fighting chance.

I have little issue with someone who is actually in a fight getting it the middle of my battle. My episode at MidOhio shows that I'll try to play nice and think my way through when I can (though perhaps those results are not preferred), and I'd like to get the same respect in return, no matter what start is used. This is much more an issue of education and communication than one of legislation. T'would be nice if we could get the Stewards to participate in that communication when necessary.

Hoping for a great weekend...

[lateapex911]

I have been spoken to for speaking up as I am a steward and I am suposed to know better than start drama... Not sure I agree but I can say most of the stewards will not support a slower car complaining about a faster car ....

Raymond "thanks for the feedback!" Blethen

I think that when you have your drivers hat on, all bets are off, you are a driver, and you have every right to complain about bad driving! heck, how many Stewards actually drive? (Or have driven in the recent past?) Dave Faita is one, but I'd bet you two are in the minority. Last I checked, we show up to race....so the DRIVERS voice should be kinda important.

Second, it's not just about fast class vs slow class, it's about respecting the other guys space, AND race. I'll tell you, I give you credit, I'd be ripped if I had some of the stuff I've seen pulled on me.

Yea, I hear you, "the rules say..." but there's more to it than the rules, there's professional courtesy. I've watched some pretty hack stuff that had no courtesy. (And I'm talking about as a disinterested spectator, NOT as a driver, as I'm rather biased there)

To faster class drivers that get caught by slower class cars, I say this: If you're running in 7th or whatever, and the 1st or 3rd place (situational awareness means you should have some an idea where these guys are in the running order), slower class cars come up on you, think, ..."they caught me, they are faster....I should ease off down the straight to get them in front of me in the areas where they can build a gap." If you then get caught by the 8th place car in your class, don't fret...you gapped him before, you'll gap him again.

[Dave Gomberg]

I think that when you have your drivers hat on, all bets are off, you are a driver, and you have every right to complain about bad driving! heck, how many Stewards actually drive? (Or have driven in the recent past?) Dave Faita is one, but I'd bet you two are in the minority. Last I checked, we show up to race....so the DRIVERS voice should be kinda important. ...
The last NEDIV stewards list I have is from early 2009, so this isn't exactly current, but of 86 stewards at that time, I counted 21 who I know are active drivers or who were within the last 3 years. There may be others of whom I am unaware. I can't say if NEDIV is typical in this regard.

Dave

[gran racing]

Matt, for the Labor Day race I see there's only one SSC car registered. If I'm running mid-pack, I personally don't have an issue with that car or other out of class cars racing me as long as it's clean.

For that SSC car, what should he do? Pull off to the side and let everyone go by? I believe the "let the lower classed car(s) go" is a much higher priority in the very front of the class and drops off the further back in the pack one goes. Btw, I've had plenty of time mid/back of the pack myself and can honestly say that's how I felt then. At that point I just want some cars to race with and saw it as a great learning opportunity. Oh, and fun!

[Butch Kummer]

Matt, for the Labor Day race I see there's only one SSC car registered. If I'm running mid-pack, I personally don't have an issue with that car or other out of class cars racing me as long as it's clean.

For that SSC car, what should he do? Pull off to the side and let everyone go by? I believe the "let the lower classed car(s) go" is a much higher priority in the very front of the class and drops off the further back in the pack one goes. Btw, I've had plenty of time mid/back of the pack myself and can honestly say that's how I felt then. At that point I just want some cars to race with and saw it as a great learning opportunity. Oh, and fun!

There HAVE been times in the past where I was the only car in my class on a track I knew well, so I chose to skip qualifying and start at the back. You get to pass a lot more cars that way and work on your traffic management skills ("racecraft") at the same time. It depends on the experience and expectations of the SSC driver.

[Dave Gomberg]

Apparently an item that appeared in the August Fastrack did not attract a lot of attention among the posters on this thread, but here it is for your consideration:

4. #1716 (Gregg Hangge) Group Racing Etiquette The CRB was asked to comment on whether drivers in different classes should be racing for overall position at the cost of interfering with the other drivers’ ability to race within their class. The CRB would like to remind all drivers that they should respect the other classes racing within their group and whenever possible, not interfere in their competition.

Dave

[Knestis]

Point being, even if someone is running all by him/herself on the track, they might still be running for a CLASS POSITION. I ran a NASA race a couple years ago where I was all by myself in 5th spot, and ended up passing 3 cars - the last one by just a couple of lengths at the flag. If I'd completely phoned it in for the last half of the race, when I wasn't door-to-door with others in my class, my class finish wouldn't have been as good.

On the other hand, I ran a Regional at CMP two seasons back, where I was the only ITB car running in one race. I was just a hair faster than two HP cars that were actually racing for position. It didn't hur my feelings at all to let them by. I literally pulled over on the straight and got off the throttle, to give them enough cushion that I could get back to working on my own driving without being on top of them...

The PS to that is that they both spun - in perfect unison - ahead of me. I got a good laugh out of it but knew that at least I had nothing to do with their conflict.

K

EDIT PS - There IS NO SUCH THING as an overall position in multiclass racing, so far as I've ever seen, with the rare exception of some enduros.

[ShelbyRacer]

Matt, for the Labor Day race I see there's only one SSC car registered. If I'm running mid-pack, I personally don't have an issue with that car or other out of class cars racing me as long as it's clean.

For that SSC car, what should he do? Pull off to the side and let everyone go by? I believe the "let the lower classed car(s) go" is a much higher priority in the very front of the class and drops off the further back in the pack one goes. Btw, I've had plenty of time mid/back of the pack myself and can honestly say that's how I felt then. At that point I just want some cars to race with and saw it as a great learning opportunity. Oh, and fun!

Not to get too specific, but that case was where he (SSC car) was the SSC leader by a LOT, and wound up somehow in between I think 8th and 9th place in ITB. Three of us ITB cars were just behind him and hoping (and trying) to get around to get to the next group, a few car lengths in front of him and pulling away slowly. He never blocked or did anything I consider bad, but it was frustrating because, for instance, when I was right behind him, I knew a botched pass attempt on him would put me back a few places. It was more of a "I really wish he'd have seen us and helped make an opportunity for us", so my "issue" with him is rather minor. As I said, I understand that that exact situation is part of multi-class racing. I'm sure I wouldn't be bitching if I'd have used him as a wedge between me and the cars behind me...

I also have no problem with someone just wanting someone to race with. That, however, is a GREAT conversation for the grid, where you can mutually agree and have fun. As I said before, this is all an issue of communication, and for that we're all responsible.

See you this weekend Dave! Perhaps I'll find some speed somewhere and be able to keep track of the tail of your car for a while...