The best ITB car nobody is racing?

[erlrich]

Ok, so I'm sitting here playing those mind games you play when you need a break from the daily grind, and was thinking about what my next IT project might be. Since a real, competitive ITR car isn't going to fit the budget I've been thinking about looking for an ITB car. The fact that it is probably the most competitive class in IT right now makes it really attractive, and it doesn't hurt that there are probably more different cars that can win in this class than all the others put together. So I was just perusing the GCR and wondering if there is maybe a car in there that nobody has built yet (or at least not seriously) that could keep up with the Golfs, Preludes, CRXs, etc. Something like the Excort EXP, Fiero, or one of the later year Celicas...

So I figured I would ask the pros - if you could build any car for ITB, outside of the current favorites, what would it be?

[quadzjr]

I woudl build a current favorite. as I have one that few are racing and having alot of issues getting it addressed.

Is the datsun 510, Opel GT woudl be cool but I think both are ITC cars.. Jsut from a visual aspect they look cool. doubt either could keep up.

Jay Marlowe has a RWD celica that does real well in ITB (has track record at Roebling), the fiero has been mentioned on here, lighter than the similiar layout MR2 with alot more tq.

[Greg Amy]

...if you could build any car for ITB, outside of the current favorites, what would it be?
I'd probably buy Christian's car (<---already developed)

...or I'd build a Mazda Protege (<---lots of development to do)

...or I'd find a secret source for rear hubs for Dave's Prelude (<---ah-HEM)

...or I'd get really quirky and fully develop a Suzuki Swift GTi (<---LOTS of untapped potential, but LOTS of development)...

...or I'd race a Miata.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Easy... after co-owning the Suzuki Swift GTi I think that car can absolutely dominate ITB with the right prep and driver.

[rcc85]

I did this exercise earlier in the year and this was my top five:

1. Geo Storm GSi
2. Alfa Spider
3. Suzuki Swift GTi
4. Alfa GTV
5 Izusu Stylus XS

All five have excellent power to weight in stock trim. The Swift is 100 hp & really light. The others are, I think, about 130 hp stock.

Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

[Andy Bettencourt]

Geo Storm iGSi s horribly misclassed right now in ITB (IIRC) and really should be an ITA car.

Fire Arrow I bet could crush if develped.

Notice both cars are 'pre process' and are overdogs by the numbers.

[Chip42]

short list:

1988-1992 Ford probe / Mazda MX6 /626. I had a turbo version of this car, it handled well and stopped very well. it's a mazda, so parts support is there, and the trans lived all the way through to the last proteges in some form or another (and same F engine code, though notably different from the 2.oL proteges). never seen one raced, likely isn't overweight given the torque potential @2.2L. compares very favorably to the Accord LXi/SEi. needs compression... shit *I* might build this. probe would be slipperier, mx6 gets mazdaspeed perks.

1986-1988 mazda 323 1.6L (NOT the 89 - they added 130# to it in the ITCS) should make sufficient power (~100 wheel maybe?) and, at 2060, it should own the braking sections. merc tracer is same thing with different sheetmetal, so you could probobly get that classed probobly the same.

1993-1997 626 2.0L - this is a less evolved version of the 2.0L protege in ITA (FS vs. FS-DE), without oil squirters and with hydraulic lifters, distributor - so it's not as good - but i'll bet money it makes the power of the 1.8L 99-00 protege, with more tq. It IS the same chassis for all intents and purposes, and weighs 95lbs less. the protege looks like a winner, this should as well. again - same eng and trans families used for a long time = easy to find, cheap parts.

[rsportvolvo]

I have a personal bias as I'm building one, but the Volvo 240 won't be a slouch once it's developed.

[tac911t]

1986-1988 mazda 323 1.6L (NOT the 89 - they added 130# to it in the ITCS) should make sufficient power (~100 wheel maybe?) and, at 2060, it should own the braking sections. merc tracer is same thing with different sheetmetal, so you could probobly get that classed probobly the same.


I had a 87 as a daily driver, bought it new, put about 120K on it before I sold it.
The 1600 Miata uses the same block, and it has the same crank nose failure as the early Miata's (left me and my wife stranded in NJ on a trip to Newport, RI. Had to rent a car to finish the trip). Probably about 85 HP at the wheels, did have good torque (don't remember the number). Independent rear, struts on all 4 corners, don't remember if it had rear disks.

[lateapex911]

Plymouth Firearrow.

[Marcus Miller]

I had a 87 as a daily driver, bought it new, put about 120K on it before I sold it.
The 1600 Miata uses the same block, and it has the same crank nose failure as the early Miata's (left me and my wife stranded in NJ on a trip to Newport, RI. Had to rent a car to finish the trip). Probably about 85 HP at the wheels, did have good torque (don't remember the number). Independent rear, struts on all 4 corners, don't remember if it had rear disks.

What else is different about the motor than the Miata? Head? intake?

Because in IT trim the 1.6 Miata makes a metric shit-ton more than that...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Oh ya.... Por-cha 924.

[Z3_GoCar]

Oh ya.... Por-cha 924.
+1

Also e-21 BMW 320i oe is ~125hp, has rack&pinion steering and a getrag 5speed box.

[chewy8000]

+ 1 for the Fire Arrow.

[Rabbit05]

I have never seen, or even heard of, a Plymouth Firearrow until this thread. So I had to go look it up. What a cool looking car !

I found a picture of one in Rally trim ...awesome.....:023:

http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/Rally_Fire_Arrow.jpg

[Greg Amy]

I have never seen, or even heard of, a Plymouth Firearrow until this thread.
Kids these days... <shaking head>

;)

[joeg]

Build the newest and most popular car.

Things like a Fire Arrow are cool, but most are long gone to Rust Heaven or the crusher.

That is common sense speak.

Lacking common sense, I would build either an MGB GT or Fiat Brava!

[gran racing]

I'd take a long hard look at the Mini. Or have Greg help me find hubs.

[spawpoet]

I'd take a long hard look at the Mini. Or have Greg help me find hubs.


I know it doesn't always translate, but as successful as the Minis are/were in auto-x, I'm shocked that I haven't see them out in ITB yet. Has anybody even built one yet? Seems like it would be a great ITB car.

[Knestis]

I think the BMW 318 has a lot of potential but I agree with the post about "new." I picked the MkIII Golf particularly because it was new enough that it was another generation away from being a vintage car. The MkIV Golf is getting cheap enough to be a real option. If I didn't already have 25 (really) 4x100 Kosei wheels, I'd think hard about starting Pablo Tres on that chassis...

...but to turn the conversation around, I'd be hard pressed right now to make sense of building a new ITB car. Since we focus on enduros and the renters that they bring along, I'd step up to something that has a better chance of winning overall - so attracting serious, funded drivers. The original car is such a small part of the package, once everything is built, the $$ difference between ITB and [whatever] is not as great as it might seem.

tGA has me thinking seriously that a real enduro-spec (i.e., 3-hour capacity) ITA Miata could be an OA winner. The SMs are often in the top 10 with their puny little tanks and slow fuel stops.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

tGA has me thinking seriously that a real enduro-spec (i.e., 3-hour capacity) ITA Miata could be an OA winner. The SMs are often in the top 10 with their puny little tanks and slow fuel stops.

K

Hardly an enduro for the likes of you...

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.

[StephenB]

Hardly an enduro for the likes of you...

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.


I agree with Andy and to be honest at most enduros it doesn't even need to be fully a developed one. I LOVE endurance racing but it Just wasn't attractive in my ITB car (although if your consistent and stay out of trouble you can usually do well!) I am still in denial about leaving ITB because its a great class with a great group of people.

My pick for ITB was the mini and i may have built one but I simply couldn't find a cheap enough donor car. I think they have a ton of potential but may cost a ton to go fast!

Someone a while back had a very fast plymouth horizon...

And my number 1 pick is the Opal GT. Looks the coolest IMHO and Jim McMahon prooved it is plenty fast back about 10yrs ago... most ITB cars today still can't stay with his times back then!

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

The fastest car out there with one fuel stop will win a 3 hour. That's an ITR car.
Kirk's not talking about a 3-hr enduro, he's talking about 3-hr legs in a long enduro.

And in endurance racing - certainly at the club level - it's not about speed, it's about, well, endurance. Spec Miatas, and cars prepped to roundabout typical SM level, are always at the pointy end at the finish of the long races because they're bullet-proof and keep going, and going, and going, and going...

The faster cars, such as ITRs, always seem to get themselves into trouble in enduros. Part of that is simply the nature of the beast, where they're tougher on equipment, tires, brakes and parts aren't as "tough"; but secondarily - and I'm going to get myself in trouble here - they "tend" to be driven by people who are more aggressive and take more chances when passing. Given the speed differentials of these cars versus the vast majority of the field (i.e., Spec Miatas) this taking-chances attitude tends to get them into trouble. Many a car starting from the pole spends a lot of time in the pits replacing go-fast parts and getting body damage repaired...

Nope, just take a extremely dependable, easy-to-drive, easy-on-equipment, decent-speed (but not necessarily the fastest) car, add in 3-hour legs, and be the Energizer. That answer is a lightly-modified Miata, as in Spec Miata with some additional basic speed mods. Hell, I'd even run the basic SM suspension with re-tuned shocks, open (but quiet) exhaust, pull the intake restrictor and add a good intake, throw on some R6 Ho-Hos and lightweight wheels, harder-compound pads, and go win endurance races. Let the ITR cars beat themselves up and wave as you pass them while they're in the pits... - GA

[924Guy]

There is a Firearrow locally here in ITC, very fast, competitive, as long as he can stay out of trouble. ;)

The E21 320 was fast, but tough to keep the pace, and has aero nearly as bad as a Volvo on the big tracks. Not what you want to try to chase down a Golf 3 with. Rocker arms seem to be a weak point, too.

There is a 4cyl Fear-o locally, actually two. They're both pretty crap. Can't see getting around that suspension, not to mention lack of engine output...

[quadzjr]

If you choose the fiero, you have to use the last model year I think it was 88' that was ont eh only one with the fixed suspension issues.

[tac911t]

What else is different about the motor than the Miata? Head? intake?

Because in IT trim the 1.6 Miata makes a metric shit-ton more than that...

I quoted stock HP numbers (what I remember). The 323 that I had, was the single cam head and used a distributor.

[Chip42]

the 323, with the 8-valve 1.6L B6 was rated ~85hp. it's not a powerful car, but I bet it would do well due to weight and handling.

[Ralliboy]

I have never seen, or even heard of, a Plymouth Firearrow until this thread. So I had to go look it up. What a cool looking car !

I found a picture of one in Rally trim ...awesome.....:023:

http://jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2008/02/Rally_Fire_Arrow.jpg

Made by Mitsubishi. Is that good or bad?

[erlrich]

Nope, just take a extremely dependable, easy-to-drive, easy-on-equipment, decent-speed (but not necessarily the fastest) car, add in 3-hour legs, and be the Energizer. That answer is a lightly-modified Miata, as in Spec Miata with some additional basic speed mods. Hell, I'd even run the basic SM suspension with re-tuned shocks, open (but quiet) exhaust, pull the intake restrictor and add a good intake, throw on some R6 Ho-Hos and lightweight wheels, harder-compound pads, and go win endurance races. Let the ITR cars beat themselves up and wave as you pass them while they're in the pits... - GA

It seems to me like one of the lighter, 4-cyl, ITR cars, driven by guys with an "enduro" mentality, would be the ticket. Even if you had to do two stops to every one of the Miata's you should still be able to out pace it as long as you could maintain about a 3-4 sec/lap speed difference. Something like the S2k, Integra, or Celica might be the way to go.

Of course, the prep cost on any of those cars is going to be way more than your typical SM or even ITA Miata, and I have no idea about the reliability of any of those cars in a 12 hour race, so the Miata may very well still be the best bet.

Back to the ITB question - some interesting picks, and after some research I can see why the Golfs and CRXs and Preludes are as popular as they are. Some of those cars are near impossible to find (try searching Craigslist for a Fire Arrow) or have absolutely zero aftermarket support (shocks for a Geo...you're kidding, right?), so unless you're a glutton for punishment I guess mainstream is the way to go...

[Russ Myers]

Get a Pinto, Cheap, and parts out the wazoo. and really bulletproof.

Russ

[chewy8000]

You wanted Fire Arrow you got it! Scott is VERY fast in ITB here in the MARRS series. He's signed up for the Labor Day double too. Cool car.

http://vimeo.com/groups/marrs/videos/13145218

[jjjanos]

Kirk's not talking about a 3-hr enduro, he's talking about 3-hr legs in a long enduro.

And in endurance racing - certainly at the club level - it's not about speed, it's about, well, endurance. Spec Miatas, and cars prepped to roundabout typical SM level, are always at the pointy end at the finish of the long races because they're bullet-proof and keep going, and going, and going, and going...

It's the 17-year locust theory -- swamp the predators with massive numbers because they can't all of the offspring... one of the vermin is going to survive.


The faster cars, such as ITRs... "tend" to be driven by people who are more aggressive and take more chances when passing.

Compared to the typical Spec Me driver?

That being said, an ITA Miata is, IMO, an excellent long enduro car.

[Greg Amy]

It's the 17-year locust theory...
I disagree, because at least in the enduros that we do along the East Coast here, we keep seeing the same locusts at the pointy end each race...


Compared to the typical Spec Me driver?
Point taken. Said differently, it seems the faster cars with the higher speed delta to the rest of the field tend to try and push that delta-speed tactically a bit harder, instead of showing patience and using that speed advantage strategically.

I speak, of course, wholly in generalities, and intentionally.

GA

[JeffYoung]

Holy Jesus I agree with Greg.

I think a Bimmerworld Miata (SM no less) WON the overall at the first VIR 13 hour.

My recollection is that SMs are routinely in the top 20 overall, a lot of them, at VIR for the 13 hour for the reasons Greg and Kirk lay out.

There is no more perfect car for enduro work than a Miata. We've run the entire 13 hour on one set of pads with plenty left at the end, and with 6 tires (just changed the left sides). If you can get the car to run more than the 1.5 hours it will on the stock tank (fuel starves), it could win overall I'm pretty sure. That said, the Bimmerworld guys have done really well in their BMWs the last few years and have sorted that stuff out for long hauls.

13 overall is an interesting race. We are taking a different approach this year, a high grip, but lowish hp car that we hope can run 2 hours. We'll see how it pans out.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree with Greg too - now that he clarified what he considered to be the ITA spec. My car uses 2 more gallons per 20 minute session than an SSM-spec 1.6L Miata...

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

[rydermike]

Audi 4000S ..... 4 wheel drive ! Great in rain and the 4 WD is also a bonus to be able to use more lines.

[JIgou]

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

That works with another Hondacura product in ITR, too. :D 2 hours on a load of fuel, don't have to change brake pads, double-stint the front tires.....it's not a bad way to go.

[spawpoet]

I agree with Greg too - now that he clarified what he considered to be the ITA spec. My car uses 2 more gallons per 20 minute session than an SSM-spec 1.6L Miata...

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.


Why not run the newer ITS Miata, and have the best of both worlds. ITS level speed, with Miata reliability and light weight should be strong in the 12 hour races. Hell the ISC ITS Miata (ex-Van Steenburg I think) routinely runs right with and often in front of all the ITR cars down here.

[Knestis]

Why not run the newer ITS Miata, and have the best of both worlds. ITS level speed, with Miata reliability and light weight should be strong in the 12 hour races. Hell the ISC ITS Miata (ex-Van Steenburg I think) routinely runs right with and often in front of all the ITR cars down here.

You have something there. NO question.


We are taking a different approach this year, a high grip, but lowish hp car that we hope can run 2 hours. We'll see how it pans out. ...

DO TELL! Inquiring minds want to know. I can spill the beans that, as of yesterday, Pablo is not going to be at the 13 hours, but I will - in a Miata.

(Cue gloomy end-of-world theme music)

I had to explain to my wife the difference between an "ITA" Miata and a "spec" Miata before she'd sign off as Minister of Finance. :)

K

[JeffYoung]

No problem -- I thought it was already well known.

We've been developing a Lola T70 replica (Ron owns it and has done most of the work), that Cameron has called the "Fauxla." After a classing "discussion" with NCR, it's been classed in ITE.

It's just got a carbureted Mustang motor in it, maybe 250 crank hp...maybe.

We are trying to get a car that runs comfortable 2:10s and can go 2 hours. We think that will win the overall based on our calculations. We'll see. Still a lot of development work to do before October....

[chuck baader]

Great idea, Jeff....run a Can-Am car in IT....marvelous..:eclipsee_steering:cb

[Tristan Smith]

Jeff, got any pictures of the Lola? Sounds like fun.

[JeffYoung]

Here you go (from Ron's build diary):

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/lola-t70-lounge/18681-build-diary-rcr-lola-t70-spider-13.html

[gran racing]

To clarify, you're seeing Accords versus Preludes. Very few others have built ITB Preludes.

[Knestis]

LOL - I hear "low horsepower" and don't see "Fauxla"

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

A real ITS Miata will be a fuel pig, just like my ITA car. De-tune it all you want but then it's a Spec Miata on some PED's.

I'll pull some fuel usage numbers from the S2000 this weekend.

[erlrich]

To clarify, you're seeing Accords versus Preludes. Very few others have built ITB Preludes.

Dave, you're right of course - I was actually thinking Civics, sorry about that. I mean, c'mon, only an idiot would build a Prelude.... ;)

[GKR_17]

We've been developing a Lola T70 replica (Ron owns it and has done most of the work), that Cameron has called the "Fauxla." After a classing "discussion" with NCR, it's been classed in ITE.


Not to be a party pooper (again), but have you reviewed that class decision with NCR this year? It was NCR ITE eligible in 2009, but the 2010 rules are very different.

"Eligible Cars include WSC, World Challenge, Fire Hawk and other “T” type cars that are not approved for competition. Additionally, the Volvo S60R is eligible for competition."

Might fit under WSC rules, and right now I don't know for sure what a "T" type car is. If it's not one of those, then it's not legal this year either. Or is the "T" there specifically for T70?

[GKR_17]

Also e-21 BMW 320i oe is ~125hp, has rack&pinion steering and a getrag 5speed box.

Not quite.
The US versions had 110 hp for the 2.0 liter (77-79) with drum rears and a four speed. The 1.8 liter had 101 hp with disc rear brakes and the five speed. I ran a '77 for the better part of a decade, it was a good car, but I'd build something else for B today.

The Suzuki Swift was clearly faster, but was nothing short of explosive in terms of reliability. A car like that definitely makes you appreciate the Miata.

[gran racing]

I actually have to agree with you Earl. Everything is custom for that car, can't get parts, a lengthy PITA build.

[quadzjr]

that motor is only 250 hp? you sure added alot of money with the bling and left the internals stock.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42620&amp;d=1255307942

[Greg Amy]

Something tells me that 250 ponies in that lightweight chassis is scary enough, thankyouverymuch...

[JeffYoung]

Grafton, we are all square with NCR on the classing. Took some work but it is good for ITE. They've got another catch all class now too, ITF or some such.

Greg, yep, it's enough power. May not have been for the UTCC, but for the enduro, plenty. The esses are a little bit more nerve wracking than in an SM.

[Bill Miller]

I can spill the beans that, as of yesterday, Pablo is not going to be at the 13 hours, but I will - in a Miata.

(Cue gloomy end-of-world theme music)



K

:o:o:o:o


Kirk,

If you want to talk about solid Miatae that run at the front of enduros, talk to John Weisberg.

[quadzjr]

I am not saying it isn't enough power or if it would be scary to drive. What I do know is typically if yo usee a ford V8 looking in that condtion it has more than stock hp. I assumed you got the number from a dyno. do internals have to remain stock in ITE? very cool car none the less. Hopefully nobody puts a wheel on it.

[JeffYoung]

Estimate from the builder. It's got a Demon carb, but a really mild cam and heads. The exhaust is nice work, but that's not where the power is on those.

We max at about 140 mph on the backstraight at VIR.

[ulfelder]

I still think a set of patient drivers in an S2000 could cruise around just in front of the buzzing hoard of Miata's then lay the wood to them whenever they chose.

I know what you're angling for, partner. Keep dreamin'. :eclipsee_steering:

[Andy Bettencourt]

:o:o:o:o


Kirk,

If you want to talk about solid Miatae that run at the front of enduros, talk to John Weisberg.

Is this the Charge of the Headlight Brigade? Team had a great time there last year on the way to P1.

[Bill Miller]

Is this the Charge of the Headlight Brigade? Team had a great time there last year on the way to P1.

That's the one Andy. They also did well the year before at both Summit and VIR, as well as the 24 at Nelson.

Jeff,

That car looks cool as hell! Need crew?

[jjjanos]

Grafton, we are all square with NCR on the classing. Took some work but it is good for ITE. They've got another catch all class now too, ITF or some such.

Appear to be DC Region ITE rules -- cars that ran in professional series on DOT tires.



The purpose of the WDCR-ITE class is to allow cars from different organized series that competed on DOT tires and a stock chassis to compete on a regional level.

Pretty certain that the Lola doesn't fall in that category. Someone wants to throw paper at you, they are going to win...

[JeffYoung]

Rules have changed. We worked with NCR starting 18 months ago to make sure the car is ITE legal. It is ITE legal, under the NCR rules and has an ITE log book. It took some work, and there was some teeth gnashing over it, bit it is in.

Paper away.

[GKR_17]

Rules have changed. We worked with NCR starting 18 months ago to make sure the car is ITE legal. It is ITE legal, under the NCR rules and has an ITE log book. It took some work, and there was some teeth gnashing over it, bit it is in.

Paper away.

Last year, anything tech would allow was legal for NCR ITE. This year the rules are different. The only eligible cars are WSC, World Challenge, Fire Hawk, other “T” type cars that are not approved for competition, and the Volvo S60R. Which one is this?

[jjjanos]

Rules have changed. We worked with NCR starting 18 months ago to make sure the car is ITE legal. It is ITE legal, under the NCR rules and has an ITE log book. It took some work, and there was some teeth gnashing over it, bit it is in.

Paper away.

What do I care, I don't run in ITE.


Last year, anything tech would allow was legal for NCR ITE. This year the rules are different. The only eligible cars are WSC, World Challenge, Fire Hawk, other “T” type cars that are not approved for competition, and the Volvo S60R. Which one is this?

Reading the NCR ITE rules, I'm guessing that the car falls under the "..eligible cars include WSC (World Sportscar Championship???)..." catch-all.

Just so long as the Mustang engine was legal for when the car ran WSC.

Double wow :o.

That means that if someone wants to show up with an XJR-14 they could run as ITE, as long as they were on DoTs.

[lateapex911]

ITE up in the NE is a bring your wallet class. Pretty much anything goes.

[JeffYoung]

Yes, WSC (World Sports Car Challenge).

Actually, Lolas ran in that class with small block Fords and small and big block Chevies. Lots of engine options.


Last year, anything tech would allow was legal for NCR ITE. This year the rules are different. The only eligible cars are WSC, World Challenge, Fire Hawk, other “T” type cars that are not approved for competition, and the Volvo S60R. Which one is this?

[DoubleXL240Z]

A small block powered Lola in IT and you have been arguing about washer bottles and plastic motor mounts!!!!!:happy204::026::happy204::026:

[Bill Miller]

A small block powered Lola in IT and you have been arguing about washer bottles and plastic motor mounts!!!!!:happy204::026::happy204::026:


In all fairness, ITE is hardly 'regular' IT. As long as I've seen it, it's been pretty much ITEverthingelse.

[JeffYoung]

Also -- you could buy a Lola back in the day for the "street." I'm sure it sucked, but there were some street legal T70s is my understanding.

Ron's car has turn signals, a cigarette lighter, running lights etc. NCDMV certified, and with a license tag for street use. Crazy driving that sucker on the streets in Cary.

[spawpoet]

Also -- you could buy a Lola back in the day for the "street." I'm sure it sucked, but there were some street legal T70s is my understanding.

Ron's car has turn signals, a cigarette lighter, running lights etc. NCDMV certified, and with a license tag for street use. Crazy driving that sucker on the streets in Cary.

No seat warmers or DVD player?????

[JeffYoung]

It's got a Ford 302 seat warmer about 6 inches from your back/ass!

[DoubleXL240Z]

I know!! Its an absolutely beautiful car!! Thats one of the things I love about working with SVRA/HSR is that the original ones will be in the paddock next to you every morning. Listening to one of the injected "not 250hp" ones warming up is sexier than socks on a rooster!!! And watching them run is even better!!

[quadzjr]

"sexier than socks on a rooster!!!"

Ahh what????

[shwah]

To the original topic - I have only taken my ITB car to the track 1 time since the 2008 ARRC...

So unless Vaughn, Beran, Duece, Peter or Aaron's cars have not been racing in that period I vote for mine!

:D

[Andy Bettencourt]

I can't reiterate enough that the real answer is the Geo Storm GSi. I am willing to bet you could build one with a stock motor, some bolt on's and an IT-level suspension and win the ARRC. Why?

It's 130hp stock. It ITB that puts it about 2700lbs but it's at 2455. In perspective, that is 10hp more and 95lbs less than the ARRC winning Accords.

It's really about a 2300lb ITA car.......

[JeffYoung]

Except...you are racing a Geo Storm....

[Andy Bettencourt]

Except...you are racing a Geo Storm....

Right, because Golfs, Accords and the like conjure up so much automotive nirvana... LMAO.

[JeffYoung]

I totally agree!

Any ITB driver with ANY aesthetics would of course choose the Shape of Things that Break.

Or maybe an Opel GT.

The rest? Boxy anti-racecars!

[plymouthfirearrow]

I own two Fire Arrows ITB and they are fast. One is a 5 time Atlanta Pro It Champion and the other will make its official visit to regional racing At VIR in October. See the cars at www.plymouthfirearrow.com I ran the time trials at Road Atlanta and my times were faster than the those qualifying for the Pro It race... given that the car was brand new, five year old tires and 9 years since I had been on the track...I would say the car will be a front runner with new tires and a little more track time. The Suzuki Swift Gti is not competitive on tracks like VIR and Road Atlanta due to the tranny ratios. I agree that the Geo Storm is the real sleeper.

[Z3_GoCar]

I totally agree!

Any ITB driver with ANY aesthetics would of course choose the Shape of Things that Break.

Or maybe an Opel GT.

The rest? Boxy anti-racecars!
If you can find a way to keep the head from warping and binding the cam box up, then you might emerge......

TRIUMPHant!!!!

(Shape of things that break..... Har de Har Har :p )

[Chip42]

I totally agree!

Any ITB driver with ANY aesthetics would of course choose the Shape of Things that Break.

Or maybe an Opel GT.

The rest? Boxy anti-racecars!

um - MR2?

Not a sleeper (more like a creeper) but it's certainly no Accord. you should like it, Jeff - it's roughly wedge shaped. but it doesn't break...

[924Guy]

Actually, my car's been running a full season PLUS the IT-Fest this year. And my teammate's also running the full Waterford season, defending his championship (somewhat half-ass-edly, I might add). There's also serious threat of maybe another 5 ITB 924's surfacing over the next year. ;)

I last raced my car last year, but was beating up on AS cars then - normal ITB cars are too slow to challenge me these days. :D

As for the Shape of Things That're Gone... I'd never touch one of those again (though oddly enough I see plenty of 8's around here!), but there was an ITB TR7 around this area. Not sure what happened to it though. Definitely not the fastest way around the track, IMO, though it might be one car that could match the '24 on aero on the big tracks... ;)

[quadzjr]

I can't reiterate enough that the real answer is the Geo Storm GSi. I am willing to bet you could build one with a stock motor, some bolt on's and an IT-level suspension and win the ARRC. Why?

It's 130hp stock. It ITB that puts it about 2700lbs but it's at 2455. In perspective, that is 10hp more and 95lbs less than the ARRC winning Accords.

It's really about a 2300lb ITA car.......

10 more in than crank in stock trim. However we all know what hondas can do in IT trim. I have heard from the tuner of keane's motor is making, and there isn't a chance the Small Port 4AGE is going to see those gains. For the same or atleast similiar reason the large port 4AGE in the MR2, FX16, AE86 doesn't make power.

We are also giving the accord 20 ft/lbs to the wheels, and you won't match the hp of the accord. I would say it would be a better canidate than any of the 30% adders LP 4AGE, as the new head and intake combo on teh GSI helped alot, but it still isn't there.

[gran racing]

20 hp more for only an additional 5 lbs more than the Prelude. Sounds pretty good to me. How is its suspension? Reliability and parts might be a challenge.

[quadzjr]

20 hp more for only an additional 5 lbs more than the Prelude. Sounds pretty good to me. How is its suspension? Reliability and parts might be a challenge.

Engine reliability is good (toyota), for the rest of the chassis I am not familiar with.

Unfortuatnely there is little US aftermarket for the engine. Just like with the MR2, you will be fabricating eveything. fabricating your own suspension, header, CAI, etc.. also engine parts are rare. You can get some parts from toyota but alot have been dropped. Parts at autoparts store typically result in you getting parts for the 4AFE, and not the 4AGE. There is also no final drive available for the car, so plan on a couple thousand dollar final drive (boat I am in with MR2 with added weight).

I would love for someone to build one. I know of atleast one ITB Gsi that has/did exist. there is video of it on the dyno on youtube. I am building a SP 4AGE toyota motor form the GSI for my MR2 street car. I can dyno it and let you know what it comes out to when I am done if anybody is interested.

[erlrich]

Ok, help me out here guys - the Storm was made by Isuzu, but had a Toyota engine?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ok, help me out here guys - the Storm was made by Isuzu, but had a Toyota engine?

...and sold through GM dealers... LMAO. Sounds like one of the reasons why the Sunbeam Tiger got killed...

British car, sold through Chrysler dealers (in 1967), with a Ford engine.

[lateapex911]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310577#post310577)
I totally agree!

Any ITB driver with ANY aesthetics would of course choose the Shape of Things that Break.

Or maybe an Opel GT.

The rest? Boxy anti-racecars!


....um - MR2?

Not a sleeper (more like a creeper) but it's certainly no Accord. you should like it, Jeff - it's roughly wedge shaped. but it doesn't break...

We are talking a bout cars that have a chance......

;)

The MR2 is the anti Storm GSi...

[924Guy]

News flash, kids - the Accords aren't winning the ARRC on outright speed. Schaafsma and I handily outqualified both of 'em in '08.

Then we had a disagreement over the 2-wide line through 7, and both of us came out the worse for it... :(

[lateapex911]

News flash, kids - the Accords aren't winning the ARRC on outright speed. Schaafsma and I handily outqualified both of 'em in '08.

Then we had a disagreement over the 2-wide line through 7, and both of us came out the worse for it... :(

EVERYbody out qualified Duece on 09.......

Look how THAT turned out!

[jimmyc]

Different set of rules then you folks play with... But we did the whole ITA~ish speed car, consistent, clean and get good finishes overall.

But YOU ARE banking on other peoples bad luck/miss-fourtain. It paid off for us, 2nd overall 13hour 4th overall 25hour, along with 3 other top tens in the 25 hour.

But we always banked on others bad luck, and us not having any or if we did being able to minimize it.

And as the years went on better, faster teams started showing up.

MER has shown what a new miata (the mx-5 cup cars), can do with a little tweaking. But as Greg mentioned sometimes there drivers just pulled stupid shit that does nothing but hurt you in a long endurance race.


My pick?? A light ITS/R car that has a good package. Or make a great car by going to ITE, IE take a good/fast ITS/R car get it really light, with bigger brakes and have a real shot.

sorry for the OT...

[JeffYoung]

No worries Jimmy...

Hell, I think an ITS RX7 won the overall at VIR one year. And they are gas hogs, but easy on tires and brakes....so you may be right.

Still, those Me-Otters. If they could run 2-3 hours like Pablo....like I said, I think we could run 13 hours on ONE set of Toyos. We changed the lefts each year we ran the SMs, but I bet they could have made it as is.

[rsportvolvo]

What are the key points in determining if a future car will be fast or not? Right now the talk is power and aero, but they seem to mostly be opinions. Power is unknown, unless it's a shared engine platform. Aero is rather simple as the drag is basically Cd x frontal area x velocity^2. Note slippery looking isn't always slippery. The Bosch Automotive Handbook has a great write up on coast down tests for aero drag. The coast down test can be performed with a stock, street car.

I went with cost, parts availability, chassis stiffness, brakes, torque and that landed me in Volvo 240 land. Not to mentio I think it can beat the 142's that everyone loves to battle with.

[spawpoet]

No worries Jimmy...

Hell, I think an ITS RX7 won the overall at VIR one year. And they are gas hogs, but easy on tires and brakes....so you may be right.

Still, those Me-Otters. If they could run 2-3 hours like Pablo....like I said, I think we could run 13 hours on ONE set of Toyos. We changed the lefts each year we ran the SMs, but I bet they could have made it as is.


One of the teams from down here ran at the 13 hour a few years ago. They both raced, AND drove back to south Florida (drove up on their backup tires) on a set of Toyo's in their SM so it can be done.

[shwah]

News flash, kids - the Accords aren't winning the ARRC on outright speed. Schaafsma and I handily outqualified both of 'em in '08.

Then we had a disagreement over the 2-wide line through 7, and both of us came out the worse for it... :(

True, but I will say that from my driver seat it was back straight speed that made the difference between me and the Hondas (and the 924). Duece, Peter and Vaughan all motored me easily on the back straight even when I had an excellent run out of 7 (which was not the case in all of those of course...).

If I were building a car today I would look at the Hondas, the Golf 3 and the 924. The closest of those to not being commonly run today is the latter.

[Chip42]

Ok, help me out here guys - the Storm was made by Isuzu, but had a Toyota engine?

The Storm GSi IS an Isuzu - a Gemini coupe, specifically, which doesn't exist in the US - we got the Impulse coupe and Stylus XS 4 door, all are the same platform and all had the 1.6L DOHC 16v "4XE1-W" engine, rated at 130hp. the XS had a lotus tuned suspension, and was a pretty good car.

So that's 3 models to pull parts from, and I have at least 4 "suspension by lotus" stickers from the front fenders of an XS in my toolbox, so I've come accross at least 2 of them in junk yards (I tend to collect these stickers, i don't know why) this is an evolution of same motor used (but modified) in the FWD Lotus Elan, rated at 130/162 (turblow)hp, though I'm not sure what from that motor would be an IT legal swap to the Gemini line. it DOES mean that parts are out there, though. if you want to spend money, this could be the giant killer in B. and of course, there IS a forum: www.isuzone.org

The isuzu weighs 2430 in B, the Storm 2380. Stylus has better gear ratios - that must be why it weighs more ;)

small-port toyota 4AGE is found in the PRISM GSi, which I think my esteemed college is mistakenly seeing when he reads "storm GSi". we have 4AGEs on the brain.

[quadzjr]

small-port toyota 4AGE is found in the PRISM GSi, which I think my esteemed college is mistakenly seeing when he reads "storm GSi". we have 4AGEs on the brain.


yep I saw 130hp,Gsi, Geo, and imedeialy thought Small Port 4AGE. My bad. Currently pricing new piston rings for the MR2. so yeah MR2 on the brain.

from a little reading "The Storm lacked the Impulse's Lotus-tuned suspension ". So what the storm share the suspension with?

specs of storm gsi

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/hist/specstorm.html

[rcc85]

Remember Toyota and GM had that NUMMI joint venture plant out in California turning out Corollas and Chevy Novas (and Spectrums) so the Toyota engine in Isuzus isn't really that far out.


Bob Clifton
#05 ITB Dodge Daytona

[Knestis]

I think there's some Geo confusion going on here. I'm too tired to try to work it all out but there are at least two very different cars in the mix.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

I think there's some Geo confusion going on here. I'm too tired to try to work it all out but there are at least two very different cars in the mix.

K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_Storm

produced from '90-'93 a round sporty looking car with semi-covered headlights, kina like the gen1 saturn SC-2 look with 10 less hp and a smaller body.

Speak of the devil:

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/feature/sloc.html

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/gifs/carpix/sloc05b.jpg

[Chip42]

I think there's some Geo confusion going on here. I'm too tired to try to work it all out but there are at least two very different cars in the mix.

K

Yup.

Storm GSi is Isuzu impulse, 4dr equivalent is the stylus XS lotus suspension tunning was all on the throw-away parts anyhow - you'd replace their hard work with konis and eibachs or whatever. If the isuzu were classed today, being a 16v DOHC 130hp FWD car, I think it would be ~2825#? thats 445lbs missing.

Prism GSi is a Toyota corolla, but with a small-port 4A-GE not otherwise sold in this country to my knowledge. yes, these were likely built at NUMMI. the large port 4A-GE is the "rocketship" found inthe MR2, FX16, and AE86 corollas. As I understand it, weighting assumes 130% of stock hp, but the cars only make ~112%, so they have been given some of the missing weight from the storm. conservation of mass, it's the law.

[Ron Earp]

In all fairness, ITE is hardly 'regular' IT. As long as I've seen it, it's been pretty much ITEverthingelse.

Exactly.ITE rules are generally written to pretty much to allow anything built to IT specs with regards to safety. NCR Region also has an ITF this year for the 13 Hour that is the same at the ITE rules from 2009, which were the WDC-SCCA rules, which allowed all sorts of stuff due to the inclusion of NASA ST rules (ST1, ST2, STU, etc).

In other words, the region is trying to accommodate anything that meets safety specs so bring those odd ball race cars down. Years ago there was some really cool cars running the 13 hour; A Daytona Coupe replica, Turbo Hondas, FFR Cobra, and a few others. Most broke, but such as it goes, at least they were allowed to try. Heck, seems like in 04/05/06 the car counts were way up there too and teams were turned away.

[DoubleXL240Z]

I remember the Daytona Coupe, lasted about 3-4 hours if I remember correctly. Maybe 2005 or so? Also Synnergy had a 996 cup car there too. Didn't finish either!!!

[Ron Earp]

I remember the Daytona Coupe, lasted about 3-4 hours if I remember correctly. Maybe 2005 or so? Also Synnergy had a 996 cup car there too. Didn't finish either!!!

The Cup car didn't finish???

I knew the Daytona Coupe didn't finish because I was maybe 200-300 yards behind it entering Roller Coaster when the its motor let go. Fortunately no oil on track that I could detect but lots and lots of smoke. Shame. That was a pretty car but if I recall correctly it had too much hp to make a go of it for 13 hours. Needed to be fueled like every 30-40 mins or so, giving up a lot of the time it'd gained on the field each stop.

[Bill Miller]

I always wondered how the Storm GSi landed in ITB when things like the Golf / Scirocco 16v cars landed in ITA, even though they made less power than the Storm.

I always figured that the Fire Arrows would make killer ITB cars, but that they were enough of an odd duck that nobody would develop them, and that there was little to no aftermarket support. I raced against Scott and his car at Summit Point in my old Rabbit GTI, and I was honestly surprised that the car wasn't WAY quicker.


Ron,

I think it's great that the regions try to accomodate all those cars in the enduros, but it does present quite a challenge for guys w/ 'real' IT cars going for an O/A win. Me-otter reliability has certainly helped them. I agree w/ Kirk, get one that can run 3 hour stints and they should be able to do very well in a 12 hour race, w/ only 3 pit stops. You guys need any crew for that Lola?

[Ron Earp]

I think it's great that the regions try to accomodate all those cars in the enduros, but it does present quite a challenge for guys w/ 'real' IT cars going for an O/A win.

Hey Bill,

The 13 Hour race isn't an "IT-only" race. Six speed sequential paddle shifters, turbo cars, etc. are far and above most "IT" cars in performance, and well above our T70 for that matter, but legal in the 13 Hour with the varied ITE/ITF rules. Go for the win in your class is the way to go, let the rest fall where they may. We're signed up with an ITA Miata and would be happy for some help. Getting those pit stops down to nil would be key and I bet a fuel sipping ITA or ITB car with 25 gallon cell, as much usable as possible, would be key and a winner....

Now, those ITB Firearrows would be cool to see! 4.2L inline six? Seems that some local folks had quite a bit of success with one of those back in the day.

R

[ScotMac]

Hey Bill,

Now, those ITB Firearrows would be cool to see! 4.2L inline six? Seems that some local folks had quite a bit of success with one of those back in the day.

R

4.2? I thought they are 2.6? I raced against one at laguna in june. The guy that drives it had been doing rally racing. Sliding around the corners, i think he was about 2 secs faster than me, and once he cleaned it up a bit, he was down to 1:51 (about a second over the track record). He is trying to sell it, if anyone is interested.

[JoshS]

4.2? I thought they are 2.6? I raced against one at laguna in june. The guy that drives it had been doing rally racing. Sliding around the corners, i think he was about 2 secs faster than me, and once he cleaned it up a bit, he was down to 1:51 (about a second over the track record). He is trying to sell it, if anyone is interested.

Yeah, it's a 2.6. Maybe he's confusing it with the 4.2L AMC Spirit in ITA. When was the last time someone saw one of those show up?

I was there at Laguna that weekend but left Friday afternoon after my head gasket blew on lap 2 of practice ... I never noticed the Fire Arrow, oh well, would have liked to look that car over.

[Ron Earp]

Yeah, it's a 2.6. Maybe he's confusing it with the 4.2L AMC Spirit in ITA. When was the last time someone saw one of those show up?

Yep, I was, sorry. Those AMC/Pymouth sorts of cars run together for me a bit. I'm told there was a AMC 4.2L six somewhere in the SE but I'm not sure I've ever seen it.

[Tristan Smith]

Yeah, it's a 2.6. Maybe he's confusing it with the 4.2L AMC Spirit in ITA. When was the last time someone saw one of those show up?

I was there at Laguna that weekend but left Friday afternoon after my head gasket blew on lap 2 of practice ... I never noticed the Fire Arrow, oh well, would have liked to look that car over.

Ed Forrest drives one here in the Atlanta Region. Has been for years. It's always fun to see what falls off/out of the the motor each race.

[924Guy]

For reference... ;)
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2010/08/porsche_924_ad.jpg

[Bill Miller]

Ron,

I know it's not IT-only, was just commenting on the chances for a 'real' IT car to vie for the O/A win against the likes of some pro endurance cars.

You guys aren't running the Lola at VIR? I'll check my calendar and let you know.

[Z3_GoCar]

Ok, so I'm sitting here playing those mind games you play when you need a break from the daily grind, and was thinking about what my next IT project might be. Since a real, competitive ITR car isn't going to fit the budget I've been thinking about looking for an ITB car. The fact that it is probably the most competitive class in IT right now makes it really attractive, and it doesn't hurt that there are probably more different cars that can win in this class than all the others put together. So I was just perusing the GCR and wondering if there is maybe a car in there that nobody has built yet (or at least not seriously) that could keep up with the Golfs, Preludes, CRXs, etc. Something like the Excort EXP, Fiero, or one of the later year Celicas...

So I figured I would ask the pros - if you could build any car for ITB, outside of the current favorites, what would it be?

Oh BTW,

What happened to the camero? I figured it'd be a very affordable route into ITR.

[erlrich]

Oh BTW,

What happened to the camero? I figured it'd be a very affordable route into ITR.

I'm sure it would be one of the least expensive cars to build for ITR, but I'm 98% convinced that it has a 0% chance of being competitive with the top dogs in ITR. I still plan to do some testing with it in limited IT trim, but unless it suprises the hell out of me it will probably be relegated to becoming a project car/track day toy.

I mean hell, if I just wanted to race an also-ran, I already have one...

[rsportvolvo]

For reference... ;)
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2010/08/porsche_924_ad.jpg

A 0.36 Cd isn't that good these days. A Volvo 240 wagon had a 0.39 Cd and many new cars are sub 0.30. (sleek shapes don't always tell the story) The Cd is only part of the equation. Frontal area is another big factor. I pulled this from the Bosch Automotive Handbook, 5th ed.

FL = 0.5 * ρ * Cd * A * V^2

PL = FL * V = 0.5 * ρ * Cd * A * V^3


PL = aerodynamic drag, in Kilowatts
FL = aerodynamic drag, in Newtons
ρ = air density
Cd = drag coeffecient
A = frontal area
V = velocity

There is a complete overview of how to run a coast down test to accurately calculate a cars aerodynamic drag and actual Cd in the Bosch Automotive Handbook. I highly recommend this book to anyone developing a car or wanting to learn more of the theory side of automotive design.

The Porsche 924 has a good chassis, decent suspension, ok engine and good aero (for the '70's), but is a great package with proven speed. As with any Porsche the factory has done alot to help you out and the HUGE aftermarket makes the development cycle fairly short. The main drawback is the P-tax paid on parts.

[924Guy]

The Porsche 924 has an excellent chassis, great suspension, weak engine and great aero (for the '70's), but is a great package with proven speed. As with any Porsche the factory has done jack squat to help you out ...and the modest aftermarket made the development cycle very long. Thankfully, with 90% VW parts, you're saved the P-tax paid on parts.

Fixed that for ya.

[JeffYoung]

Good point on "vintage" aero. TR7s look aerodynamic. They are not -- I bet a Mark III Golf has a better CD.


A 0.36 Cd isn't that good these days. A Volvo 240 wagon had a 0.39 Cd and many new cars are sub 0.30. (sleek shapes don't always tell the story) The Cd is only part of the equation. Frontal area is another big factor. I pulled this from the Bosch Automotive Handbook, 5th ed.

FL = 0.5 * ρ * Cd * A * V^2

PL = FL * V = 0.5 * ρ * Cd * A * V^3


PL = aerodynamic drag, in Kilowatts
FL = aerodynamic drag, in Newtons
ρ = air density
Cd = drag coeffecient
A = frontal area
V = velocity

There is a complete overview of how to run a coast down test to accurately calculate a cars aerodynamic drag and actual Cd in the Bosch Automotive Handbook. I highly recommend this book to anyone developing a car or wanting to learn more of the theory side of automotive design.

The Porsche 924 has a good chassis, decent suspension, ok engine and good aero (for the '70's), but is a great package with proven speed. As with any Porsche the factory has done alot to help you out and the HUGE aftermarket makes the development cycle fairly short. The main drawback is the P-tax paid on parts.

[Knestis]

But again, Cd is different than total aero drag in "negative power." Frontal area of the Golf III is probably 1.5 924s.

K

[Greg Amy]

TR7s look aerodynamic. They are not...
Wha, wha, WHAT? "The Shape of Things to Come" is not aerodynamically efficient....????

Confused in CT... :shrug:

P.S., Nebber, nebber, NEBBER use Cd as a comparison number; it's meaningless to anything but the egghead engineers. Doing so is truly ignorant (in the truest sense of of the word). This is why Miatas are truly NOT "not aerodynamic" and why my NX2000 truly does NOT have the aerodynamics of a McLaren F1...despite the Cd numbers to the contrary.

[Z3_GoCar]

Wha, wha, WHAT? "The Shape of Things to Come" is not aerodynamically efficient....????

Confused in CT... :shrug:

P.S., Nebber, nebber, NEBBER use Cd as a comparison number; it's meaningless to anything but the egghead engineers. Doing so is truly ignorant (in the truest sense of of the word). This is why Miatas are truly NOT "not aerodynamic" and why my NX2000 truly does NOT have the aerodynamics of a McLaren F1...despite the Cd numbers to the contrary.

Greg, you egg-head:D

To truely compare aero (for low-speed, low-reynolds numbers conditions) you need both Cd and cross-section area, one without the other is pointless.

[JeffYoung]

No, the TR7/8 are not aerodynamically efficient.

Sure, you need cD and frontal area. But I bet the frontal area of a TR7 or a 924 is not 1.5 times a Golf.

Look at the edges, transitions and gaps in a car from the 70s vis a vis a car from the 90s. No blended edges and all sorts of gaps and "dirty" devices on the older car.

We really see this in the TR8 and the 260z versus newer cars, and in particular the RX7 and the Integra in ITS. All with similar horsepower, but the newer cars really make ground at 120 mph+ while the Z and the 8 hit an aero wall.

The cars are balanced -- don't get me wrong I don't think we need to do anything about it -- because the Z and the 8 are so much better in the midrange.

But anyway, my point was it is just as ignorant to look at a "shape" and say "good aero!" without looking at cD (and frontal area).

[rsportvolvo]

So with all of the 944/951 go-fast parts you are stuck with developing everything yourself? The struts, shocks, bushings, torsion bars, ARB's etc. are not common? Compared with my Volvo 240 you probably have 1000% more aftermarket parts to build an ITB car with. It's definitely not a bimmer, but not without some aftermarket love.

Not sold on the aero, but without complete info it's a moot point. Many would argue that a MacPherson strut and semi-trailing arm are never "excellent." The Porsche engineer's gave you the 924, that in your estimation is a good basis for an ITB car.

[pfcs]

Many would argue that MacPherson strut and live axle are never "excellent".:(

The Volvo engineers gave you the 240, that in your estimation is a good basis for an ITB car...
so why not get one built and find out?

[rsportvolvo]

Many would argue that MacPherson strut and live axle are never "excellent".:(

The Volvo engineers gave you the 240, that in your estimation is a good basis for an ITB car...
so why not get one built and find out?

Point taken. I personally like the 924 as an ITB car, I just don't know the car well enough to invest in a build and only take issue with some of the reasoning for choosing it (low Cd).

My car build is in progress. The car is currently on the chassis fixture getting the rollcage installed (main hoop is in!). I'm not saying my car choice is "excellent" and I know it is far from it in many respects. My premise is that the Volvo 240 can be as good as the Volvo 140, which is a good ITB car. That and I know the car quite well and had a good donor on the cheap. There are some rule changes in the works that I'm patiently waiting on. My car build is providing some info to the ITCS for the Volvo 240's eventual reclassification.

[924Guy]

So with all of the 944/951 go-fast parts you are stuck with developing everything yourself? The struts, shocks, bushings, torsion bars, ARB's etc. are not common? Compared with my Volvo 240 you probably have 1000% more aftermarket parts to build an ITB car with. It's definitely not a bimmer, but not without some aftermarket love.

Not sold on the aero, but without complete info it's a moot point. Many would argue that a MacPherson strut and semi-trailing arm are never "excellent." The Porsche engineer's gave you the 924, that in your estimation is a good basis for an ITB car.

Yeah, unfortunately while most of the stuff looks the same... it's not. The '24 has basically the early 944 chassis... some of it's the same, and that's great, but there are odd differences... rear swaybar's the same, but the front's not. All the really good shock packages are available for the late 944/951, but don't fit our cars. The biggest obstacle though was the engine - no racing knowledge still around for such a limited prep level, so we did pretty much have to figure that out ourselves.

Can't dispute the 240 aftermarket, no personal knowledge there, just seen a buncha stuff in iPD catalogs, but that doesn't necessarily translate to racing.

Re: the suspension - no, the struts aren't great, we just have to go with the Colin Chapman rule - any suspension can be made to work perfectly well once you stop it from moving! :D The rear suspension is excellent, though. Sure, it's a PITA to work on, not designed for racing, but it gives incredible grip and ability to put power down in the corners, way better than the solid-axle cars we mostly race with. Then again, those also have that crappy Fox-body or whatever front Rustang suspension, so they're double-dammed - just can't get through the corners to save their lives.

I'm still surprised the wedges aren't any better with the aero... ah well... I'm never going back there anyway... ;)

PS - didn't choose it for the aero. I chose it for the worst possible reason - I already had and knew them. Then we got it moved out of ITA and things stopped sucking so bad.

[callard]

Chuck interupts this great discussion on 924s to point out that there is going to be a super IT-B shootout at the Summit Point Double MARRS this coming Labor Day weekend. Great cars and drivers from all over the East coast :023:

[gran racing]

With numerous different ITB makes in the group, 22 ITB cars thus far. Should be interesting!!

[924Guy]

Chuck interupts this great discussion on 924s to point out that there is going to be a super IT-B shootout at the Summit Point Double MARRS this coming Labor Day weekend. Great cars and drivers from all over the East coast :023:

Shaddup and get back in the garage and finish your P-car... ;)

Yeah, I saw that FasTrack 911 thing. Wierdo. :p

(I really wish I were going to the Labor Day weekend thing - sounds like a good weekend to lay down the smackdown again. But I have my own car to build. :( )

[fmracing]

i think the new mini cooper 02-04 would be a good bet

[callard]

Yeah, I saw that FasTrack 911 thing. Wierdo. :p

I get to keep the 200 pounds of lead trophy, add 20 HP, move up a class and not be able to fit the wider tires under the stock bodywork. Big whoop. Will concentrate on IT-B car now.
Chuck

[gran racing]

Which ITB car? Or was it already said and I just missed it? :(

[callard]

Dave,
Vaughan knows that I've got a 924 in the works. I miss you guys in IT-B.
Chuck

[gran racing]

Awe. See you in a couple of days.

[jjjanos]

Well, if you are picking a car based on availability of spares and junked versions that can be picked up at steep discounts, I'd go with this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pN-139i0UQ/SHvfXkXiCGI/AAAAAAAAAoo/JYKsZB3nytk/s400/cozy%2Bcoupe.jpg

Gawd knows it can't be any worse than the New Beetle in ITC....

[erlrich]

Well, if you are picking a car based on availability of spares and junked versions that can be picked up at steep discounts, I'd go with this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pN-139i0UQ/SHvfXkXiCGI/AAAAAAAAAoo/JYKsZB3nytk/s400/cozy%2Bcoupe.jpg

Gawd knows it can't be any worse than the New Beetle in ITC....

I actually considered that car Jeff - but I'm just not convinced it will make anywhere near the process HP :D

[Eagle7]

Well, if you are picking a car based on availability of spares and junked versions that can be picked up at steep discounts, I'd go with this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pN-139i0UQ/SHvfXkXiCGI/AAAAAAAAAoo/JYKsZB3nytk/s400/cozy%2Bcoupe.jpg

Gawd knows it can't be any worse than the New Beetle in ITC....
Looks like a new beetle :D

[callard]

[QUOTE=jjjanos;311242]
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pN-139i0UQ/SHvfXkXiCGI/AAAAAAAAAoo/JYKsZB3nytk/s400/cozy%2Bcoupe.jpg

QUOTE]

I'm betting that Jeff's is shiny new and low milage...but there is contention for usage.

[BullFish]

I have a few Cozy coupes around here!

But really.. the new Beetle is THAT bad? Huge frontal area, no power, little aftermarket support, but geez.. it is a 2.0L. 2760lbs is a bit large to swallow...

Whaddya all think?

Kris

[tom91ita]

has anyone considered what might be the king of hondas based on the calculated power multiplier (this is what it must be able to achieve based on its assigned weight and assumed process)?

the 1990 era honda crx hf. it was stock with 62 hp from its 8V head. to get to the "process" weight, it must have about a 1.93 power factor and you can run those solid disc rotors for less rotating mass instead of the heavier vented discs.

its weight is 2030 #'s. doing the approximate math would yield something like this to get there:

62 hp x 1.926 power multiplier x 17 #/hp (ITB factor) + 50 (wishbone suspension) - 50 (FWD) = 2030 #'s.

that would be a real sleeper. i have one for a DD and i know i sometimes doze off during the mile i use to get up to 55 on the freeway. and since it can get 60 mpg at 60 mph, this thing should also be considered by the enduro crowd. if you put a 25 gallon cell in this thing, you would have to equip the drivers with Depends to stay out for a ful fuel run....