Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

[gran racing]

At last weekend’s Watkins Glen national, they decided to have a triple split start to give some separation between the classes in group 1 that had 72 cars. Something I’ve never seen before but overall worked out quite well.

Glen Track Map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2a/20091015223706!Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_ Map.png


After taking the left hand turn 10, I intently watched the corner workers in turn 11 to see if they dropped the double yellow. The pole car in our split start of showroom stock (SSB car) was just ahead of me and on the same portion of the track. He started picking up his pace, but the double flags in turn 11 remained. Unexpectedly the 3rd place SSC car went around me, and was directly in front of me (not side-by-side) and gained a position. The double yellow flags were still being displayed and we still had not passed this flag station. I wasn’t quiet sure what to do at that point. We reached the front straight and the green was being waived.

Once the race was completed, I spoke with the driver about the situation and wondered what caused him to go before the yellow flags were removed. I made it clear that his passing me wouldn't have impacted our finishing position and would be a good learning experience for both of us. He was a bit confused about the whole situation as well. He had a spotter on the front straight to call the start, and the green was being waived which prompted him to make the pass when he did. It was quite odd that the green was being waived for our split start well before the leader of this field could possibly see the starter stand.

I also spoke with the driver of the car who was leading this split field. He was given orders by stewards to go once he received the green. Not sure why that needed to be said, but maybe there’s more to it that I’m not aware of? He apologized for going earlier than when we could see the starter, but his spotter was also telling him that the green flag was being waived then.

I believe that the starter should not have given the green when they did. If this were to happen again, as each of these three drivers (pole, 3rd place starting position, and myself) what would / should have been done?

[ner88]

I had no idea what was going on :shrug:, sure would have been nice for them to tell us.
I guess the stewards are just like most drivers and don't read the GCR either :023:

[Knestis]

After talking w/Dave about it (I was hanging out but didn't actually see the start), it SOUNDS like they didn't do a true split start. They just reshuffled the grid to put the classes in bunches, with some separation between them.

I fall back on, "our races are - and have always been - multi-class groups and we just have do deal with the realities of that." Making stuff up as we go along only confuses people, confused people make mistakes on the track, and mistakes can bend up cars and people.

K

[Greg Amy]

From my perspective, the INTENT of the stewards was to simply give some starting space between the Touring cars (in front), the Miata hoard (in the middle), and the Showroom Stock crowd (in the back). What they wanted was not to have multiple green-flag starts (the traditional "split start"), but to simply give the three groups some initial breathing room at the single-green start.

Two problems borked that idea up: one, that info was not communicated to drivers in advance and not all of them had radios to know when the race started; and two, not all flag stations dropped their yellows immediately when the first group got the green. The result was the confusion you guys experienced.

Two comments:

- Regardless of what may be happening up front or any place else on the track, drivers are controlled by the flags in their location. That means that the driver that passed Dave under the double-yellow was wrong, wrong, wrong, REGARDLESS that he knew the track was supposed to be green. LOCAL FLAGS OVERRULE ALL.

- This is the PERFECT use of a driver's meeting, to communicate information to drivers that was not previously given in the GCR, supps, or registration handouts. Instead we insist on gathering drivers - much to their inconvenience - to introduce stewards, telling everyone to obey the yellow flags and to follow the GCR, and telling everyone to not hit each other. Yeah well, thanks a ton for that insight. I suggest in this particular situation that this revised procedure was decided at the last minute on Sunday (it was not done on Saturday). It was a great idea - one that should be considered again - but it was not communicated; maybe an "impound all" for a quick chat after the Sunday AM qually was in order?

And while we're on a rant, the Watkins Glen track is getting really effin stoopid on their procedures. A 2-hour delay to repair a wall, the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry??? Going full-course to pull cars out of areas that was well out of the way (IMO, and I recognize I didn't have all the info)? Of all the sessions over the weekend, what percentage were able to go all the way without a black flag all or a full-course caution? did any? I think Group 3 got a total of maybe 20 racing laps the entire weekend, and that included both green and full-course!

I will give one "prop" for the handling of the end of Group 3 on Sunday: an EP Miata pounded the outside wall in the last turn two laps from the end (of the very-shortened 8-lap-of-14-originally-scheduled) race. As I came through the corner and saw the waving yellow, then saw the car stopped up against the wall, I rolled my eyes expecting Yet Another Full Course Yellow. Didn't happen. I'm guessing (read: assuming) that the stewards recognized the car was very visible, covered well by flags, and that competitors would recognize the situation and compromise their lines for the last two laps. And, it appears everyone did. Kudos for not shortening what was already a shortened "race"....

Watkins Glen is quickly becoming the place you hate to love, but love to hate... - GA

[JohnRW]

While I agree with Greg's comments for the most part.....



A 2-hour delay to repair a wall, the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry???

...let's put an end to ^^^this bullshit^^^ right now.

T2 car pounded the wall head-on at ~110mph after losing brakes. Impact bowed armco back 2.5-3ft, and split the center piece in half. There were 20+ people working with multiple backhoes, torches etc. to replace vertical supports (6+) and ~40 feet of rail. Cars were on-track within 5 minutes of the last bolt being tightened.

Whoever came up with the "paint" rumor needs to be publically pantsed.

[LMcB]

Making stuff up as we go along only confuses people, confused people make mistakes on the track, and mistakes can bend up cars and people.


How true is this. If you're going to do a split start, why not do it properly, with separate green flags for each group? You know if the first group gets the green that the second (and third? that's a new one) group will get one as well, but the starter still has control of the field and when to show the second green.

Also, Greg is right that local flags rule, but double yellow is not a local flag. Green flags and double yellows are mutually exclusive. If there is only one green flag shown for the whole group, then all stations should drop their double yellows (or rather, all stations should be instructed to drop their double yellows) when the green flag flies. Racing begins for everybody when the green flag is waved, whether they can see it or not. Not a good situation and sort of defeats the purpose of the split start, IMHO.

Having been in race control for many split starts, I can tell you they are not that easy to do well. Ideally you want the second group about 30 seconds behind the first group (depending on the track), but it's extremely hard to make that happen when the second group can't see the first group, doesn't know how fast they are going, race control can't see either group, may not have radio communication with the pace car for the second group (if there is a pace car) to speed them up or slow them down. It's hard to adjust the split once the pace lap is underway.

[gran racing]

the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry???

I'm pretty sure the person said that as a mere joke about the length of time it was taking. Most people had no idea what was going on but it was announced on the PA system that there would be a delay, and races would be resumed at 2:30 (I believe). Cars didn't go out until much later. I don't doubt the effort, work, and timing of everything but it was a long delay even if totally necessary.

[Greg Amy]

Whoever came up with the "paint" rumor needs to be publically pantsed.
Pace car. And he said it with a straight face, implying he got it "from on high" (hey, he had the radios)...and when I replied "are you serious???" he confirmed it, even noting it was "the second coat of paint"... :shrug:

[John Nesbitt]

Pace car. And he said it with a straight face, implying he got it "from on high" (hey, he had the radios)...and when I replied "are you serious???" he confirmed it, even noting it was "the second coat of paint"... :shrug:

Pace car driver or pace car passenger?

[Drew Aldred]

If not a true "split start", but only a single start with gaps between the groups, then once it's green the ENTIRE track is green and racing begins. The double yellows should have been dropped when the green came out.

However, if it was a split start then each group has to wait to see the green from the starter prior to racing.

[ner88]

T3 and SM were sent out, then they held all SS cars on pre grid.
Lead SS car was told to stay the lenth of the straight behind.

We (the SS group) left pit lane at almost race speed to try and catch up.
I was the third car in the group and we never saw the lead group.
Coming out of the boot the lead SS car took off, so did everyone else.

Was it a split start or split grid?
No second pace car!
The only one given any instruction was the lead SS car.

So, What the hell was it?:shrug:

[gran racing]

I intently watched the flag station for the double yellow to be removed, but nothing. After the pass, I was totally confused as what to do. It was quiet frustrating.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I see no other way for it to be Dave. You looked for the one sign of a green flag (when you can't see it) and it wasn't there.

The flag station displaying the doubles dropped the ball.

[Knestis]

...but double yellow is not a local flag.

Sure it is. Unless my memory fails me (possible), back in the olden days, when the course went FCY, every station went to a waving yellow. The "double yellow" was introduced to make it clear from the observation of ONE station that the pace car was coming out, where in the past one had to see a whole slew of waving yellows.

What if the green had come out and everyone crashed into one another in T1, blocking the entire track? If control called an alert and rolled the pace car, that double yellow before the start might have been the only - and certainly the earliest - warning that the trailing group got.

The question then becomes, can you pass locally under a double yellow? I think not. Dave's guy should have gotten pinged, as should the flagger at that station.

Again - I think we complicate this aspect of the game WAY too much. It's multi-class racing. Deal with it. Sometimes the chips fall in your favor in qualifying, sometimes not. A talented driver will maximize his/her chances given the cards dealt and the whole point of racing is to sort the talent to the front of the finishing order.

K

[LMcB]

The flag station displaying the doubles dropped the ball.

Andy I wouldn't assume it was the flag station who dropped the ball. Race control may have forgotten to tell them to drop their yellow flags. (If it was the only station with YY that's a different story.) Either way, if the YY is up then you have to obey it. Did anyone approach either the CS or the Operating Steward afterward to let them know what happened? It was, after all, a pass under yellow, whether or not the flaggers saw/reported it.

BTW, the GCR is fairly clear on how cars are to be positioned on the grid and on how split starts are done (see 6.4.2.B and 6.5.2.A & D). It doesn't sound like this start conformed to the GCR and the ensuing confusion is understandable. It was probably just as confusing to the flaggers.

[jjjanos]

- Regardless of what may be happening up front or any place else on the track, drivers are controlled by the flags in their location. That means that the driver that passed Dave under the double-yellow was wrong, wrong, wrong, REGARDLESS that he knew the track was supposed to be green. LOCAL FLAGS OVERRULE ALL.

If the field is using a true split start, then local flags rule. If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.


T3 and SM were sent out, then they held all SS cars on pre grid.
Lead SS car was told to stay the lenth of the straight behind.

We (the SS group) left pit lane at almost race speed to try and catch up.
I was the third car in the group and we never saw the lead group.
Coming out of the boot the lead SS car took off, so did everyone else.

Was it a split start or split grid?
No second pace car!
The only one given any instruction was the lead SS car.

So, What the hell was it?:shrug:

A cluster... a fubar?


Sure it is. Unless my memory fails me (possible), back in the olden days, when the course went FCY, every station went to a waving yellow. The "double yellow" was introduced to make it clear from the observation of ONE station that the pace car was coming out, where in the past one had to see a whole slew of waving yellows.


6.11.2 (Sporting Regs) DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS — Indicates the entire course is under a yellow condition. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. This flag condition may be used with or without a Pace (Safety) Car, including pace lap(s).
That's what it might have meant back during the Younger Dryas, but now it just means the entire course is under a yellow condition and if start is waving a green, that cannot be true.

Anyone going to pit because they see a single station displaying a black flag?

Heck, I worked a weekend where a FCY was called during qualifying for a large group. Worked great! Drivers slowed down, car got yanked and we went back to green giving the drivers more track time than they would have had with a BFA. never saw a pace car.


What if the green had come out and everyone crashed into one another in T1, blocking the entire track? If control called an alert and rolled the pace car, that double yellow before the start might have been the only - and certainly the earliest - warning that the trailing group got.

This is the procedure I was told to use if an incident occurs at the beginning of an race that requires start to display any flag in addition to the green.

1. The starter continues to wave the green flag, indicating that the race has begun.
2. Backup displays the appropriate flag.

I.e. The starter is waving the green and someone else whips out the double yellow or single yellow.

No green at start means the folks who didn't see the green start double file.


Again - I think we complicate this aspect of the game WAY too much. It's multi-class racing. Deal with it. Sometimes the chips fall in your favor in qualifying, sometimes not. A talented driver will maximize his/her chances given the cards dealt and the whole point of racing is to sort the talent to the front of the finishing order.
K

I can see situations that call for a split grid. We've got a slew of ITS cars that run mid-pack ITB times. If we started everyone in a herd, the ITS cars are going to use their HP to get in front of the ITB race on the run down to turn 1. They will then park it in the turns turning a good B race into a matter of who is lucky enough not to get stuck behind the S cars. We use a split start, with bona fide pace cars for the two groups. Second group has start judges because we know we are getting the green, but so far, we haven't needed them.

I think 90 cars for a sprint race at VIR calls for a split start. Not doing that is only asking for trouble from the accordian effect.

Why ask for trouble or bodywork when a simple and easy procedure makes things a little more enjoyable and safe for everyone?

[RSTPerformance]

If the field is using a true split start, then local flags rule. If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.


I disagree... Yellows means it is a yellow radios or no radios.

How is the driver that was involved in that accident?

Raymond

[ner88]

[QUOTE=

How is the driver that was involved in that accident?

Raymond[/QUOTE]
Which accident?

[lawtonglenn]

the two hour "paint the armco and wait for it to dry" accident

:D

[Z3_GoCar]

In Cal-Club we hold the double yellows untill the pace car passes a predetermined corner, in this case maybe turn nine-toe of the boot. If the whole track went green at the first group, then the double yellows should have been dropped for the whole track when the pace car got to turn nine. Sounds like someones land-line was down.

[dickita15]

Split starts can be a good tool that regions should have in their toolbox. They can certainly solve some problems with certain race groups but they are not something you can do on the fly at the last minute. Everyone involved, the pace car drivers, the corners stations, the starters and the stewards have to be on the same page and understand the concept. A region has to practice them to do them well.

[gran racing]

Did anyone approach either the CS or the Operating Steward afterward to let them know what happened?

A few drivers talked about in impound but we were all quite confused. At that point I was more than happy to have a working car again, and just wanted to enjoy the rest of the day and figure it out later.


If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.

Since this was a triple split start (or whatever one may call it), the moment the first group was given the green the 2nd and 3rd groups were technically green? I don't agree with that. Talk about a safety concern.

I believe the way this should have gone down is the first group was to follow the pace car as a normal start would. Green would have been given for that group, and that group only. Next group needed to wait until they were given the green at the starters stand before racing. Same with us - green should not have been waived until the starter could see the field.

Anyone know how the 2nd split start (SM) group was handled? Did they receive the green somewhere else on the track?

[dickita15]

Split starts are spelled out in the GCR.

6.5.2 Split Starts
A. Split starts are recommended when there is a large differential in
speed or cornering ability between the classes or categories in a
single race group. The procedures for a split start must be explained
in the Supplemental Regulations or at a Drivers’ Meeting.
B. The Chief Steward will determine the class(es) in each segment.
Segments will contain entire classes of cars, including those
cars with no qualifying time. The class containing the car with
the fastest qualifying time will be a part of the first segment. The
cars assigned to each segment will be gridded by qualifying time,
regardless of class.
C. Each segment should be led by a pace car, if possible. A following
segment should have the previous segment in sight on the longest
straight.
D. Each segment will receive a separate green flag. If the first segment
gets a green flag, then the remaining segment(s)’ race(s) will have
started no matter what flag the starter displays. This allows the
Starter to display appropriate flags if warranted by an incident.
Anyone jumping the start in the remaining segments may be penalized.
E. A starting judge should be appointed for a split start.


It does not sound like a real slit start is what happened or even what was intended. There is a procedure called a split grid but it is not specifically called out in the GCR that I can see. Normally this means resequencing the grid by class. However:

6.4.2 Establishing the Race Grid
A. A starting position is qualified by a driver/car combination.
B. The Chief Timer certifies official qualifying times to determine race
grid positions. Cars are positioned on the race grid in order of their
official qualifying times without regard to engine displacement or
class, with the fastest cars at the head of the grid. Any other
method of determining starting positions must be described in the
Supplemental Regulations and approved by SCCA.

It sound like a split grid was done, hopefully with the approval of the SOM as I doubt this was in the supps but rather than do a split start the different groups were just told to leave a space.

The wording in the GCR is a reasonable, fairly well thought out way to do split starts. Hybrid methods worry me.

[Knestis]

...That's what it might have meant back during the Younger Dryas, but now it just means the entire course is under a yellow condition and if start is waving a green, that cannot be true.

Anyone going to pit because they see a single station displaying a black flag?

But what you're asking for isn't workable from the driver's point of view. We have to be conditioned for an operant response - see yellow, follow yellow rules. ANY time we ask drivers to go through the mental gymnastics of working out permutations of what might be going on at S/F for example, we create an unpredictable, potentially dangerous situation.

If I see a double yellow and it's my first indication that something is wrong (i.e., I haven't seen a waving local yellow), I click into "FCY" mode: Assume that the mess might be anywhere - around the next corner? - be very circumspect about what I'm doing, and once the problem has been located, get caught up to the pack behind the pace car.

If I get to the second station showing double yellows, it reinforces what I knew from the first. If I get to the second station and there are NO yellow flags, then it's safe to assume the course is clear. The fact that in this instance, they were EXPECTING the green when they saw the double yellow, the correct course of action for someone in a group of cars purposefully held back from the rest of the grid *seems* to be to treat the track as FCY.

But then, that's why this was just wrong from the outset, sounds like.

K

[jjjanos]

Since this was a triple split start (or whatever one may call it), the moment the first group was given the green the 2nd and 3rd groups were technically green? I don't agree with that. Talk about a safety concern.

It sounds as if they were trying to do a split grid on the fly.
Neither a split start or a split grid works unless everyone knows that it is being used.

A GCR-compliant Split Start is essentially 2 starts in the first group. The course between start and the second start remains FCY until the second (or third) group sees the flag.

A split grid, something not mentioned in the GCR, simply has the second (or third) group leave a gap between the forward groups. As soon as start waves the green, the entire course is green. Everyone races. Some will be smart enough to look at the stations for the dropped flags, some will have radios, some will realize it when they get passed.


I believe the way this should have gone down is the first group was to follow the pace car as a normal start would. Green would have been given for that group, and that group only. Next group needed to wait until they were given the green at the starters stand before racing. Same with us - green should not have been waived until the starter could see the field.

Like I said, depends on whether it was a split start or split grid and everyone needs to know WTF is going to happen. Sounds like the someone sitting in the chair got a little too intimate with a canine because not all of the drivers were informed and perhaps not all of the flag stations/start.

[jjjanos]

But what you're asking for isn't workable from the driver's point of view. We have to be conditioned for an operant response - see yellow, follow yellow rules. ANY time we ask drivers to go through the mental gymnastics of working out permutations of what might be going on at S/F for example, we create an unpredictable, potentially dangerous situation.

On the start, do you wait until you see the green or do you rely on a radio or the rest of the field taking off?

If I have a radio, I have not been told there is a split start happening and I hear over the radio that the field is green/green/green, I am going to go as will 95% of the field with radios.


If I get to the second station showing double yellows, it reinforces what I knew from the first. If I get to the second station and there are NO yellow flags, then it's safe to assume the course is clear. The fact that in this instance, they were EXPECTING the green when they saw the double yellow, the correct course of action for someone in a group of cars purposefully held back from the rest of the grid *seems* to be to treat the track as FCY.

Except, the guys who went knew the course was green.


But then, that's why this was just wrong from the outset, sounds like.

Yep. If the grid isn't the normal procedure, everyone has to be told that something new is being done, otherwise, things like this happen.

[John Nesbitt]

As of June 1, the language in GCR 6.5.2.D is replaced (see June Fastrack, p.6):

6.5.2.D Split Starts

1. Provided each segment is properly formed, each will receive a separate green flag.
2. If the first segment receives a green flag, the race is considered to have begun for the subsequent segments when
they cross the control line, regardless of the flags displayed by the starter.
3. The flags displayed by the starter have their normal meanings.
4. If the first segment receives a green flag, but on track safety conditions require an immediate full course yellow, cars
in subsequent segments should fall into single file grid order and make every effort to safely catch the back of the first
segment.
5. Drivers in each segment shall not improve their position until their respective green flag is displayed. Jump starts may
be penalized.


It's important here to distinguish between split starts and split grids.

A Split Start is defined in the GCR: separate segments, each usually with its own pace car, and each taking its own green flag. If the first segment gets a green, the second segment will also get a green, but not until it reaches the Starter. If segment 1 messed up, Start may also display other flags (Yellow, FCY, etc.) When each segment takes its green, racing commences throughout the segment.

A Split Grid is not defined in the GCR, and is therefore an informal local arrangement. Typically, classes within a segment will group themselves separately from (but close to) the rest of the segment. When the segment is shown the green, racing commences throughout the segment (as above).

For the race under discussion, there was both a split start (segments 1 and 2) and a split grid (segment 2 split into two). When segment 1 took the green, it commenced racing, but segment 2 did not. When the first car in segment 2 took the green, racing commenced throughout segment 2, including both split groups.

As another poster mentioned, these are complicated processes, with many moving parts. Combining a split start and a split grid adds to the complexity. It is critical that all players be on the same page.

[spawpoet]

On the start, do you wait until you see the green or do you rely on a radio or the rest of the field taking off?

If I have a radio, I have not been told there is a split start happening and I hear over the radio that the field is green/green/green, I am going to go as will 95% of the field with radios.



You can't assume the radios though, which is why everybody has to obey the yellow flag whether it's supposed to be there or not. Any deviance from following what the local station is displaying creates a dangerous situation. Even if the green is waving, if the local station is (erroneously) displaying a double yellow any passing should be considered a violation. It sounds to me like this should be clarified in the GCR.

[disquek]

I will give one "prop" for the handling of the end of Group 3 on Sunday: an EP Miata pounded the outside wall in the last turn two laps from the end ...

Hi Greg,

I beg to differ on this one.

Race control "got away" with a bad decision.

It was Chris Howard's FP miata that nosed into the T11 safer barrier HARD. As you know, T11 is a 85+mph corner and the barrier is inches from on-line. Chris was directly on the racing line.

Eyewitness accounts (no paint drying here), have him being buzzed so close and fast that it MOVED his car while he was planted into the barrier. Remember, this is a 2,000lb open miata on track with 3,500lb BMW WC cars. In addition at least one of our always well behaved SM in STU colleagues passed under the yellow going into T11.

IMHO, this was not so much a good decision, but a fortunate outcome. Did those two laps result in a different race result or were they worth the risk? I don't think they were. I think that they should have thrown the checker when Chris hit the wall.

-Kyle

[ner88]

Kyle
You've made your point on how many forums??
:dead_horse: the pass was questionable, leave it alone.

Oh, by the way, there are no Miatas in FV, give it some thought!

[disquek]

Hey Jerry,

Questionable? Since when is a pass under yellow caught on video showing not one but two flag stations with yellow out "questionable"?

Why don't you recall for us how you defended your paying customer's conscious decision to take another lap after he saw the black flag all on Friday? What was it you said? "The F&C workers were not waiving the flags vigorously enough"? Don't even think of changing the tune now. He was VERY clear that he saw it and made the decision to continue at race pace.

I have no issues with Miatas. I drove to work in one today. I have an issue with idiots.

My post was not about the pass under yellow, it was about the decision to leave Chris on the racing line for the benefit of two compromised race laps when, prior to that EVERY session had at least one caution. Was Chris' safety some how less important? Maybe it was because he was in a miata?

BTW: I brought up this seriously stupid move on one other forum. I brought it up there because the perp decided that rather than apologize, he would attack the person he passed under yellow by telling them that they were slow. Frankly I cannot think of a way to show worse judgement or less respect. Oh wait .... maybe skipping a black flag all for another joy ride lap.

-Kyle

[ner88]

Kyle
Ok so the post wasn't about passing under yellow but you brought it up and thru in STU and SM.
You're entitled to your opinion.
No name calling here.:(

[Andy Bettencourt]

So the real learning oportunity here for me is simple:

1. We know EITHER race control or the corner workers (or both) messed up and didn't have the same 'signs' up at the time of 'start'.

2. We know that, AT THAT MOEMENT - AT THAT CORNER, the course was FCY. No passing allowed. Just because the green was out doesn't preclude SOMETHING else from being wrong - or a mistake being made.

So what is the takeaway? It's video. Got to have it. Also, who do you protest, for what and what would your expected outcome to be?

The people who passed while under FCY should have been written up and penalized some positions. No? Should this have been proactive by the Stewards or should it have been done on protest?

[John Nesbitt]

Here is a short follow up to my earlier post.

As others have mentioned, a split start is a complicated process which requires careful coordination and should not be done on the fly.

The operational objective is to gap the two segments such that the first segment has cleared the first turn(s) before segment 2 gets to the start. The rationale is obvious: if segment 1 makes a mess in T1, the Starter can display the appropriate flag(s) to the second segment.

When the first segment starts its pace lap, all stations should be double yellow. When the first segment gets the green, all stations from station 1 to the back of segment 2 should drop their double yellows.

Segment 2 should continue to see double yellow until it gets the green. When the second segment takes the green, the remaining stations drop their double yellows.

In the present case, where segment 2 did a split grid as well, the flag conditions should be exactly as described since the split grid is still one segment for starting purposes. (This is also why a split grid normally has a much smaller gap - so that all have a chance to see the green.)

[jjjanos]

So the real learning oportunity here for me is simple:

2. We know that, AT THAT MOEMENT - AT THAT CORNER, the course was FCY. No passing allowed. Just because the green was out doesn't preclude SOMETHING else from being wrong - or a mistake being made.

You've created a situation that cannot exist unless one is in the process of having a split start, which, apparently, the third group of cars was not under. Except for a split start, under no set of circumstances can that corner cannot be FCY. In fact, no part of the track was under a FCY the moment start displayed the green flag for the 2nd group of cars.

Turning to the Miata incident...


Since when is a pass under yellow caught on video showing not one but two flag stations with yellow out "questionable"?

The incident looks like race direction:
Station with Incident -1: Standing Yellow
Station with Incident: Waving Yellow
Incident
???

There is no incident within the area covered by (station with incident -1). Thus the flag is meaningless as soon as the drivers can see to the next station. No "emergency area" under that flags coverage area equals one may pass.

The error was in displaying a "backup" flag at the previous station unless it is SOP and listed in the supps. That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers. A yellow flag says that between me and the next station, there is an incident. If the driver can see the next station and there is no incident, the emergency situation no longer exists.

Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world....

[disquek]

So the pass under yellow was okay because the previous flag station also had out a yellow flag?

It is not up to you to second guess race control by deciding that just because you don't happen to see an incident, you are not affected by the yellow flag.

I suggest that you re-read GCR 6.1.1b and update your post. You are wrong. There is no passing between the first flag and the incident. If there is no incident there is no passing between the first flag and the next flag station with no yellow flag displayed.

-Kyle

[Greg Amy]

Yellow flag? No passing. No exceptions, no matter how smart or clever you think you are.


Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world...
FIA rules. This we can agree upon. I do think it's time we adopt those, to eliminate the vagaries of such silly conversations as above. Yellow flag means no passing until you see a subsequent green, period. - GA

[JohnRW]

There is no incident within the area covered by (station with incident -1). Thus the flag is meaningless as soon as the drivers can see to the next station. No "emergency area" under that flags coverage area equals one may pass.

The error was in displaying a "backup" flag at the previous station unless it is SOP and listed in the supps. That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers. A yellow flag says that between me and the next station, there is an incident. If the driver can see the next station and there is no incident, the emergency situation no longer exists.

Wow.

I suggest you review GCR Section 6 - specifically 6.1.1 "Meaning of Each Flag", with special attention paid to the "Note" below 6.1.1.B.

Then come back here and try to defend your statements above. I doubt you can...but it will be fun watching you try...and will provide us with a "target-rich environment" for taunting and ridicule.

This will be fun.

[jjjanos]

So the pass under yellow was okay because the previous flag station also had out a yellow flag?

Are you kidding?

-Kyle

Depends on where the pass was made.

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.

If the pass happens anywhere but between waypoint 2 and waypoint 3, I would say the pass was legal. A pass being defined as the nose of the overtaking car, at any time, breaks the plane of the nose of the car being overtaken.

Waypoint 1 should not have had a flag displayed. Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

That is entirely subject to what is in the supps.

It was incorrect to display a flag at the previous station. It serves no purpose other than to teach drivers that the flaggers cannot be trusted.

[spawpoet]

That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers.


That the drivers are still obliged to follow.



Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world....

Agree wholeheartedly. This would clear up the ambiguity in this situation.

[JohnRW]

http://gnarlypop.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/img_1718.jpg

[disquek]

jjjanos,

Please tell me that you don't own anything that might put us on the same track at the same time.

-Kyle

[jjjanos]

Wow.

I suggest you review GCR Section 6 - specifically 6.1.1 "Meaning of Each Flag", with special attention paid to the "Note" below 6.1.1.B.

Then come back here and try to defend your statements above. I doubt you can...but it will be fun watching you try...and will provide us with a "target-rich environment" for taunting and ridicule.

This will be fun.

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

In most of NEDIV, the Standard Operating Procedure is that a flag covers only the area from the station to the next. A standing yellow indicates a car is off somewhere between this station and the next. A waving yellow indicates that a car or a sizable chunk of car is one the racing surface.

You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

[lawtonglenn]

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.




The first Yellow at WP1 is the beginning of the yellow flag
area, the incident at WP3 is the end of the yellow flag area.

Glenn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)

STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING
FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.

WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO
PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.

DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the
entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will
display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN,
NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other
cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).

NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the
emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW
DOWN, NO PASSING."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Andy Bettencourt]

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

In most of NEDIV, the Standard Operating Procedure is that a flag covers only the area from the station to the next. A standing yellow indicates a car is off somewhere between this station and the next. A waving yellow indicates that a car or a sizable chunk of car is one the racing surface.

You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

If flag station 1 has a yellow and flag station 2 has a yellow, there is no passing between the stations. Just because you can't SEE something, doesn't mean it isn't there. The flags are there to tell you the story, even if you don't want to believe it, you have to.

[jjjanos]

That the drivers are still obliged to follow.

And by tradition and SOP, that information is that there is an incident between the displaying flag station and the next station.

Exactly how is a driver to know when and if the station is displaying information for this station and when a station is acting as back-up?

Drivers are not required to wait until they pass the next flag station, they are required to wait until they pass "the incident". If the incident is one, two or three stations away, exactly how are they to know this the first time through?

Let's say there was actually was an incident that justified a standing yellow at waypoint 1. E.g. Someone pulled off just after the station. Is that yellow for the incident I just saw or is it for something 1, 2, 3 stations down stream? Or is it for the incident and something that isn't this station's responsibility to cover?

That stationary yellow isn't going to slowdown drivers. They will ignore the admonishment to "Take care, Slow Down" because the flaggers are lying.

Backup flags serve no purpose. They do not protect anyone (no flag protects anyone. It is a sheet of nylon). Backup flags provide incorrect and conflicting information to the drivers - a bad thing.

[jjjanos]

If flag station 1 has a yellow and flag station 2 has a yellow, there is no passing between the stations. Just because you can't SEE something, doesn't mean it isn't there.

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.


Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

[disquek]

I fail to understand how this basic stuff escapes some people.

How often do you see:
1. Crap like this.
2. Failing to put "both feet in" when you spin.
3. Moving over to let faster cars by.
4. Over aggressive slowing for black or red flags
5. Failing to acknowledge grid workers signals and/or not displaying a pit in signal
6. Racers going 50 in the paddock

We should require refresher courses to keep your license. At a minimum there should be tests.

-Kyle

[JohnRW]

The note under 6.11.B is for Double Yellows.

Um...no, it is not. It is a note at the bottom of a section called "Yellow Flag", and separate from the paragraphs titled "Standing Yellow", "Waved" and "Double Yellow, Displayed At All Stations".


http://mamacokethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/dunn-strikes-out-again.jpg

See ? I told you this would be fun.


.
You don't violate SOP on drivers mid-session.

Of course, you've just mentioned "SOP" several times, and we need to get it into context -


Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

Wtf is that ? "Unwritten SOP" somehow takes precedence over the written GCR ? So...where can I find this "unwritten SOP" ? It's unwritten...so maybe it's passed along by wizened gurus speaking in odd Latin declentions ? Or...maybe you're just making this crap up ! Inquiring minds want to know !

[disquek]

... "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, ...

Ding ding ding ... so you did know the correct answer after all.

You MUST wait for the next flag station before passing if there is no incident (or if you don't see the incident).

Frankly, when you pass a car after a yellow flag, are you always 100% SURE that's the last of the incident? 100% sure? Willing to bet yours and your friends life on it sure?

Wait for the next flag station. Don't be "that guy".

-Kyle

[JohnRW]

Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

BZZZZT. Attempted "Red Herring"....a deflection of the original discussion. 10 yds. or 3 regional events probation.

[spawpoet]

And by tradition and SOP, that information is that there is an incident between the displaying flag station and the next station.

Or in this case the double yellow is telling the field (that cannot see the flag station at S/F) that the green has not fallen. Doesn't matter if they are wrong, if the double yellow is shown, passing cannot occur. How else can any car without a radio know that there wasn't an aborted start?? Again you cannot assume all have radios. And you can't have half the field at full throttle, and the rest following the flag they are supposed to obey.


Exactly how is a driver to know when and if the station is displaying information for this station and when a station is acting as back-up?

It isn't that complex. If you see yellow you are under yellow until you are within site of a station not showing yellow, and/or are past the incident.

[spawpoet]

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.


Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Standing yellow, and nobody can pass. If they have a backup yellow preceding this one nobody can pass between the stations either.

[MMiskoe]

Gee, what was one of the first complaints in this thread? Something about too many full course cautions, not enough racing? Gee, is this because WGI is sick of people not honoring yellows? So now they say 'We'll slow them down, where one is good two is better, or maybe just screw-em, get the pace car out there"

Go ahead pass under yellow. Pretty soon SCCA will adopt NASCAR rules which state that full course yellows will be thrown frequently and usually for situations that would otherwise be covered by a local yellow. Then we can all go out and do parade laps behind the pace car instead of racing. Go ahead & keep passing under yellow.

One pass under yellow that results in a corner worker getting killed will spell the end of local yellows in SCCA racing. Care to bet me on that one?

[Andy Bettencourt]

And at this track, you can see. More importantly, the tradition and SOP (at most tracks) is that the story is "Between me and the next flag station, there is something." so unless you always wait until you reach the next flag station before making a pass, I'm going to call situational ethics.

You can SEE the flag station yes. But you may not be seeing the incident. THAT IS WHAT THE FLAGS ARE TELLING YOU.

In your scenario, you pass because you see no incident between two yellows - therby creating some TOTALLY arbitrary amount of passing area (I guess it's from "where I saw" to the next station). Can you see the danger here? "Geez, I am sorry I totalled that car, I didn't SEE the incident so I pulled out to pass..."

No way, no how. It is not up to you to THINK there is no incident when you are surrounded by yellows.



Quick quiz:
Car hits the barrier, flips over it, bursts into fire. There are 2 fire trucks and an ambulance that have responded on the backside of the barrier attempting to put out the fire and extract the driver.

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

*I* am certainly not trained to answer that.

[jjjanos]

BZZZZT. Attempted "Red Herring"....a deflection of the original discussion. 10 yds. or 3 regional events probation.

Not a deflection. Just trying to see who actually understands the information being conveyed by the flags.

And your answer?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not a deflection. Just trying to see who actually understands the information being conveyed by the flags.

And your answer?

No that was not the question. I don't care WHAT creates a flag situation and what flags to throw, I just have to know how and where to put my car when I see those flags.

[joeg]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Hopefully a red flag

[jjjanos]

You can SEE the flag station yes. But you may not be seeing the incident. THAT IS WHAT THE FLAGS ARE TELLING YOU.

In your scenario, you pass because you see no incident between two yellows - therby creating some TOTALLY arbitrary amount of passing area (I guess it's from "where I saw" to the next station). Can you see the danger here? "Geez, I am sorry I totalled that car, I didn't SEE the incident so I pulled out to pass..."

You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?


No way, no how. It is not up to you to THINK there is no incident when you are surrounded by yellows.

Sorry, but the GCR requires me to determine whether I am past "the incident." It does not direct me to wait until I reach the next flag station. It tells me that I cannot pass until the incident, thus, I have to determine whether this is the incident or not.


*I* am certainly not trained to answer that.

Fine, then what flag would you expect would be displayed?

[jjjanos]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

Hopefully a red flag

Nope.

[Andy Bettencourt]

You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?



Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Fine, then what flag would you expect would be displayed?

Who cares? You tell me what flag is showing and I will tell you how I would react. I am a driver, not a flagger.

[spawpoet]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.


This is the textbook answer. A drivers job is simply to listen to what the cornerworkers tell them with their flags. If you aren't 100% sure you are past the incident you react as if you are under yellow.

[Greg Amy]

I don't know why you guys are pissing in the wind trying to argue this.

Yellow flag? No passing.

No exceptions.

It's really that simple.


Let JJJANOS fight it out with the Chief Steward. Or his ER surgeon, whichever comes first...

[JohnRW]

Lol. A continuing attempt at "thread trajectory nannying"....


http://cdn.gameist.com/static/contentimages/jkimak/skills/swing_and_miss.jpg

...as you may have realized that you're in so deep that your ears have popped and and the canary has died.

I point you again to 6.1.1. The language is explicit. Your reference to an "unwritten SOP" is silly. Setting up a hypothetical event won't get you off the hook here.

You previously stated...


And at this track, you can see

and I'll simply state that you're wrong. Have you ever raced at Watkins Glen ?

Por exemplo - The "Off-camber Left" - something nasty happens at the exit there...Station 15 goes waving, but if you're in heavy race traffic, there is a HIGH likelyhood that you won't see it as you turn into T9, so having a backup "standing" at Station 14 is very important. Same deal with the Esses and Stations 4 and 5 - at 100+mph, do you want to first see the problem as you cross the tunnel ? Ummm...no. Same deal at Station 16-17, the subject of this debate - If you're in traffic (and the subjects of this debate were in traffic), you don't have a lot of time to catch sight of Station 17 before you turn into T11, and you have a pretty good chance of NOT seeing the Miata on the wall on the outside edge of the track as you do. Station 16 may go standing at the request of 17, since 16 is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACK and will give the LARGE CROWD OF CARS a "heads-up".

So...not to harp on your mis-reading of 6.1.1....but tell us again, just so we can giggle.

[Wreckerboy]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

Ding, ding, ding.

<---- Sometime flagger who gets worried when he see things like this. At least in the racecar I'm protected by nice safety equipment.

[gran racing]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

I honestly don't give a crap what is the right flag for that condition. As a driver, I'm safely slowing the heck down and ensuring the workers trying to help the car on fire are given ample room to work. If some other race car drive wants to pass me because there's no yellow, black, or red flag? Have the position, it's all yours.

Some of this is getting pretty stupid.

[mossaidis]

I can't believe we're actually having this conversation... I think many of you would agree. It's unbelievble... but yes, we HAVE club members that have joined our club and make up their own rules. o.O Please please please 1) if you choose to not to follow the GCR especially where the safety and road manners are concerned, go somewhere else and race with another club or 2) better yet stay and suggest improvements - in the end of the day rules regarding safety and protecting LIVES of those at risk must be easy to understand and follow - they must be applied equally under the same situations (yellow = no passing) every time. Otherwise, see #1.

Is there some "unwritten" SOP when you total a car or ruin a LIFE that it's okay for someone to beat your brains in with a helment behind the dumpster? Think about it - GCR says no physical violence.

Rules are in place for a reason. Break them and you better have a dam good reason to.

[Knestis]

...You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?

To be fair, the rules absolutely DO allow me to decide that I can make my pass after I clear "the incident" but I do so at my own peril - and potentially that of workers - if I don't know that things are REALLY OK.

I can speak from personal experience watching a driver execute a well-timed pass on a competitor after the site of an incident (arguably well-timed because the passee was more cautious in the yellow zone than the passer) ONLY to discover that the waving yellow he'd driven by was essentially covering a waving yellow at the NEXT corner for an entirely separate incident...

In this case, the way things were laid out, he absolutelly could have seen that next station if he'd been looking for/at it rather than at his nemesis.

K

EDIT - In the interest of full disclosure, I *do* use a radio and have Cameron call the green, and in the past when I didn't have a radio, I've used the "yellow flags dropping" and "field accelerating" as my cue to skiddoo. But worst case, in none of those cases have I been more than "around the last corner" from S/F. THANK GOODNESS I haven't ever had to deal with the split start shenanigans.

EDIT EDIT - You ain't seen anything until you've watched NASA do a split standing/rolling start. (Yes, that means what you think it means.) Or the deal where they checker one class in the middle of a longer race for other classes. I've seen both. Eeek.

[JoshS]

EDIT EDIT - You ain't seen anything until you've watched NASA do a split standing/rolling start. (Yes, that means what you think it means.) Or the deal where they checker one class in the middle of a longer race for other classes. I've seen both. Eeek.

Oh yeah, that's normal out here with NASA Norcal. I've been in a NASA race where there were *6* starting groups in the same race, the first one did a standing start, the other 5 groups did rolling starts. Each group had a pace car though, fortunately.

[lateapex911]

JJJJJJJanos, you sure like to ride the twisted logic train! "SOP"...thats hilarious! I won't begin to repeat what the others have said, but thanks to you everyone in the room is dumber than when they came in, LOL. Folks, just ignore the guy making things up as he goes along!

This DOES bring up a sore subject, I was passed under an exactly similar situation (as JJ's two yellow scenario) in my last race at Lime Rock. Standing yellpw at S/F, and standing yellow at entrance to turn one. I got passed between the two flags. Then Yanis, who was running 2nd ahead of me, got passed by the same guy, in the same spot under the same flag conditions. Somehow, he didn't get called in. I thought it was SO obvious. So obvious I didn't write paper. Dumb move. He got away with it, and there were workers tangentially to his pass on the outside of the track. BAD move.

We're all in this together, and we drivers need to communicate things with the Stewards, like the fact that the FCY flags were still up in T11 when the green was displayed. Which is odd, because I thought the T11 station could SEE the S/F flag...

[Ed Funk]

Kubaya, m' Lord, Kubaya.....

[StephenB]

Depends on where the pass was made.

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.

If the pass happens anywhere but between waypoint 2 and waypoint 3, I would say the pass was legal. A pass being defined as the nose of the overtaking car, at any time, breaks the plane of the nose of the car being overtaken.

Waypoint 1 should not have had a flag displayed. Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

That is entirely subject to what is in the supps.

It was incorrect to display a flag at the previous station. It serves no purpose other than to teach drivers that the flaggers cannot be trusted.

In 20+ yrs as a member (270387). I have never heard this interpretation....

[jjjanos]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving).
Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

I'm sorry... you said Nope. Nope what? No, you will not pass until you reach the next station after going past the only incident you see or no you will pass because you seem to be indicating that you do both.

Based on what you've written, I don't see how the flag condition at the next station should matter at all and yet you say that when you see it, you might pass.




I point you again to 6.1.1. The language is explicit. Your reference to an "unwritten SOP" is silly. Setting up a hypothetical event won't get you off the hook here.

Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

As for SOP - you ever flagged? I have, lots. I know that SOP for flagging in nearly all of NEDIV and a good chunk of SEDIV is:

No flag = nothing between this station and the next.
Standing = something between this station and the next, but if you stay on the pavement, you will not hit it.
Waving = something on the pavement between this station and the next. Be prepared to stop.

Flags should convey one thing and one thing only - the condition of the course between here and there.

Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

I trust these SCCA flaggers 100% to be displaying the flags this way because, until recently, I was one of them. I know how they flag. I know what flag is suppose to be displayed and I know what flag will be displayed. Probably wouldn't trust those who spend a large amount of time flagging with RSI, but that's a different issue.

As for incidents that I, as a driver, cannot see. I know that if I cannot see an incident between me and the next station, then there is no incident between me and the next station. Mind you, that presupposes that I am not in the middle of a scrum and can actually see the verges between pavement and barrier. I do not care how far a distance there is between me and the next station.

I know this because, by the flagging standard, if I cannot see the broken down or wrecked vehicle, I know that those staffing the stations will not be displaying a flag. (Hence the hypothetical... the correct flag condition is no flag.)


and I'll simply state that you're wrong. Have you ever raced at Watkins Glen ? I've flagged it.


Por exemplo - The "Off-camber Left" - something nasty happens at the exit there...Station 15 goes waving, but if you're in heavy race traffic, there is a HIGH likelyhood that you won't see it as you turn into T9, so having a backup "standing" at Station 14 is very important.The Glen throws stations around like a prostitute turns tricks and I cannot remember which station is numbered which. I've flagged the exit from the boot. Are you talking about the two stations on DR (the first at the entrance and the second at the exit) or the station at the entrance to the exit from the boot and the station down the hill?

In the prior, the two stations shouldn't exist. The only station that should exist is the one at the entrance to the corner. There is an unencumbered from the exit of that corner to the turn-in to the next.

In the latter, there's no freaking way the flag at turn in can be missed, so there is no need for a backup down the hill


Ummm...no. Same deal at Station 16-17, the subject of this debate - If you're in traffic (and the subjects of this debate were in traffic), you don't have a lot of time to catch sight of Station 17 before you turn into T11, and you have a pretty good chance of NOT seeing the Miata on the wall on the outside edge of the track as you do. Station 16 may go standing at the request of 17, since 16 is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACK and will give the LARGE CROWD OF CARS a "heads-up". Again a place that I have flagged (the left-hander or penultimate corner of a lap). There is a clear line of sight from mid-corner to turn-in of the ultimate corner of the lap. A driver exiting the penultimate turn will see everything there, if he spotted a flag at station located at the penultimate turn. The station near turn in of the penultimate corner is on DL. The station near turn in of the last station is DR.

Or is this another of those places that WGI has multiple stations covering what should be covered by a single station and there is both a station at the entrance and exit of the corner? I didn't flag the last turn of WGI, so I don't know if they've over stationed that corner too.

I've flagged places that had "mirror" stations. Station 7 automatically displays whatever flag station 8 displays and also displays a flag for anything between it and 8. That makes 8 a meaningless station and it should cease to exist.

A standing yellow to "cover" an incident in the next station's flag area is dangerous, does not protect anyone and only leads to real flags being over-driven. When I flagged regularly - around 20 weekends per year - the desire and actions of flaggers were to convey accurate, correct and useful information to the drivers.

[Butch Kummer]

Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

I've never driven nor flagged WGI, but I have done both at Road Atlanta. It is possible to carry more speed through Turn 6 there than you can get stopped for at Turn 7, and there are many times that cars will go through 6 side-by-side trying to "out brave" each other into 7.

When there is an incident at or just past the apex that necessitates a waving yellow at Turn 7, we will OFTEN call for a back-up standing yellow at Turn 6. This is expressly done to alert guys to get their cars fully under control before the apex to 6 and reduce the chances of a side-by-side threshold braking incident into the side of the car that has spun and is sitting broadside at the apex (or exit) of 7.

We have also called for a back-up standing yellow at Turn 9 when there's an ugly incident that necessitates a waving yellow at 10-A. Again it's to get guys lined up and out of a side-by-side threshold braking situation into a car at the apex of 10-A.

Maybe this creates more danger to some of (or at least ONE of) you Yankees, but if you come to Road Atlanta and pass someone between a standing yellow at Six and a waving yellow at Seven (or a standing yellow at T-9 and the waving yellow at T-10) you'd be advised to have a better justification than "the unwritten SOP allows me to pass there" to take to the Chief Steward.

A standing yellow means no passing until you're past the incident or reach the next station where no flag is displayed - that's pretty damn simple to understand.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

[jjjanos]

A standing yellow means no passing until you're past the incident or reach the next station where no flag is displayed - that's pretty damn simple to understand.



Well, that's not in the GCR you know.

Useless trivia: Road Atlanta is the reason for this stupid and useless rule ; "advised to have a better justification than "In addition, a standing white flag will be displayed during the first lap of each race group’s first session of the day to indicate the location of the flagging stations."

As it was related to me, a driver made a pass under a yellow at station X. Station Y was not staffed. Station Z was. Driver successfully argued (either at the SOMs or the Court of Appeals) that his pass was legal since there was no flag at Y and there was no incident between X and Y.

"Someone" decided the solution was to show a white flag for lap 1 of the first session so every driver would no where the flag stations were located and staffed. This, of course, does nothing for drivers who miss the first lap or first session. It also means that, if additional flaggers arrive, you cannot staff the unstaffed stations in the afternoon since the drivers have not been displayed a white flag.

It also means that the flag stations cannot show a white flag on the first lap for a slow moving car or an EV because the white flag now has 2 meanings, depending on what lap it is displayed.

[Peter Olivola]

6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING
FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO
PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the
entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display
double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and
other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency
area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING.

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR
A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying
the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically
cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall
not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are
mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.


Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

[JohnRW]

Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

Let's look at what the GCR 6.1.1 actually says, since you're determined to misquote and misconstrue it...

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING.


You've will note that EACH of these flag descriptions says "NO PASSING". The capitalization is the GCR's...not mine. Your quote, emboldened above, is inaccurate...misleading...duplicitous.

The note is very clear. Once you see a yellow flag, regardless of what other flags you might see...more yellows...yellows with debris...yellows with white flag...yellows with black...yellows with red...that the message is the same -"SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING". This is painfully obvious, unless you want to be deliberately/defensively obtuse.

What is also interesting is that, if "cut" from the .pdf of the GCR and pasted into a new Word document, the "Note" section is not indented like each of the flag description, which to a normal, conscious and breathing person, indicates that the note applies to all the elements in that section. Cut and paste it yourself and see.

Your arguments are failing.


As for SOP - you ever flagged? I have, lots. I know that SOP for flagging in nearly all of NEDIV and a good chunk of SEDIV is

Once again, you venture into the land of logical fallacies. Whether I've flagged or not is irrelevant. We're discussing driving, and driver's appropriate reactions to flags. I don't note a requirement to be a qualified flagger prior to obtaining a competition license, or a requirement to have extensive knowledge of an unwritten flagging "SOP". Is there one ? If not, your deflection is...a deflection.


Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

Then maybe, since you have a unique view of how to flag blind corners, maybe you can explain why Summit Point has yellow lights on the bridge, operated by the flag station at T10, to give drivers a "heads-up" for conditions beyond their line of sight. Am I free to pass between those yellow lights and the station at T10, if I can't see an incident ? SP supps say I can't...and those are exactly the same "backup" flag conditions that you're condemning at WGI. Lol. A flag station doesn't need an explanation in the supps, since the meaning of the flags is clearly stated in the GCR (above).

As to my question as to whether you're ever raced at WGI, you've responded -


I've flagged it.

...so that would be a "NO". Lol. You have no idea of the sight lines from corner to corner at the Glen, do you ? (rhetorical question...it's obvious that you don't)


The Glen throws stations around like a prostitute turns tricks and I cannot remember which station is numbered which. I've flagged the exit from the boot. Are you talking about the two stations on DR (the first at the entrance and the second at the exit) or the station at the entrance to the exit from the boot and the station down the hill?

In the prior, the two stations shouldn't exist. The only station that should exist is the one at the entrance to the corner. There is an unencumbered from the exit of that corner to the turn-in to the next.

The entrance to the corner can't see the exit of the corner. Too great an arc, and too much elevation change. So...if they put yellow lights at the entrance (like Summit Point), instead of a flaggers and a flag station, would that satisfy you ? LOL. You're sinking deeper.


Again a place that I have flagged (the left-hander or penultimate corner of a lap). There is a clear line of sight from mid-corner to turn-in of the ultimate corner of the lap. A driver exiting the penultimate turn will see everything there, if he spotted a flag at station located at the penultimate turn.

Lol...no he won't. Between the posters in this thread who actually have race experience at WGI, there are probably 10,000-20,000 laps of experience (I probably have 5000, between racing - 6 different classes - and instructing DE). Ask them if they can see the exit, under the pedestrian bridge, as they approach turn-in for T11. Ask them about their experience in the SM "Big One" several years ago there, or maybe ask the World Challenge folks about their similar experience. Due to elevation change, camber and inner guardrail, the flaggers at the station covering that turn can't even see a slow-slung car at the inside of the exit on the front straight.



A standing yellow to "cover" an incident in the next station's flag area is dangerous, does not protect anyone and only leads to real flags being over-driven. When I flagged regularly - around 20 weekends per year - the desire and actions of flaggers were to convey accurate, correct and useful information to the drivers.

So says you, with no backup to prove it. Uber-experienced racers with decades of club racing experience at this track and others have publically disagreed with you. I guess they're clueless.

http://site.despair.com/images/dpage/delusions03.jpg

[lawtonglenn]

.

[jjjanos]

Once again, you venture into the land of logical fallacies. Whether I've flagged or not is irrelevant. We're discussing driving, and driver's appropriate reactions to flags. I don't note a requirement to be a qualified flagger prior to obtaining a competition license, or a requirement to have extensive knowledge of an unwritten flagging "SOP". Is there one ? If not, your deflection is...a deflection.

It's not a deflection. I'm telling you how a good chunk of the tracks in the middle atlantic are flagged. It doesn't matter what the GCR says when you are in the car coming to an incident. It matters what the flaggers are telling you.

There's nothing in the GCR about flaggers holding a fire bottle and pointing at you as you go past. Are you going to ignore that information because it isn't in the GCR?

AFAIK, there's nothing in the GCR about flaggers using hand signals to direct cars to DR or DL when there is a waving yellow. You going to go DL or DR when the flaggers are using hand signals indicating that you should go through the blind corner on DR?


Then maybe, since you have a unique view of how to flag blind corners, maybe you can explain why Summit Point has yellow lights on the bridge, operated by the flag station at T10, to give drivers a "heads-up" for conditions beyond their line of sight.LOL. You don't understand why stations are placed where they are. EVERY station is placed to give a driver information where there is a blind spot or to allow a station to station view. (Which, thinking about it now, explains the station at the entrance and exit to the exit from the boot. That station does not have a clear line of sight to the next left. If they could put a station on DL there, which they cannot because of terrain, they wouldn't need 2 stations.).

The lights on the bridge aren't there to give drivers an early heads-up about what's around the corner. They weren't put there to shutdown the very limited passing opportunities at 10. The lights on the bridge are there because the FMs and many drivers felt that the station 10 is difficult to see and the inability to put a station in more direct line of sight.

At Summit, Station 2 exists only because station 1 cannot see station 3. Station 6 exists (though rarely staffed) because, if we can, we don't want to shut down the passing zone in 5 for an incident in the carousel. Station 9 exists because station 8 cannot see over the hill to station 10.

Station 5, however, mirrors nothing when 6 is staffed. 6 can be waving a yellow hard enough to churn butter and 5 is still covering only its area.


Am I free to pass between those yellow lights and the station at T10, if I can't see an incident ? SP supps say I can't...and those are exactly the same "backup" flag conditions that you're condemning at WGI. Lol. A flag station doesn't need an explanation in the supps, since the meaning of the flags is clearly stated in the GCR (above).You cannot pass because the supps tell you that the flagging zone for station 10 BEGINS at the lights. If all you can see is to the apex, you cannot see the entire zone covered by station 10's "flags" and so you would be taking a chance if you passed. If, however, you can see down to start and there is no incident, you are past the emergency situation.




As to my question as to whether you're ever raced at WGI, you've responded -
The entrance to the corner can't see the exit of the corner. Too great an arc, and too much elevation change. So...if they put yellow lights at the entrance (like Summit Point), instead of a flaggers and a flag station, would that satisfy you ? LOL. You're sinking deeper.You are saying that the flaggers at the entrance cannot see the exit? BS. I've spent a weekend at that very station. I KNOW the flaggers can see the exit. Whether the drivers can see the exit is irrelevant as to the placement of a station. The placement of the stations is dependent on whether stations can see the track to the next station (i.e. their entire zone), the drivers can see the station and whether the sanctioning body wants to shut down a long stretch of track from passing.

What the flaggers cannot see is down the frigging chute there.


Lol...no he won't. Between the posters in this thread who actually have race experience at WGI, there are probably 10,000-20,000 laps of experience (I probably have 5000, between racing - 6 different classes - and instructing DE). Ask them if they can see the exit, under the pedestrian bridge, as they approach turn-in for T11. Ask them about their experience in the SM "Big One" several years ago there, or maybe ask the World Challenge folks about their similar experience. Due to elevation change, camber and inner guardrail, the flaggers at the station covering that turn can't even see a slow-slung car at the inside of the exit on the front straight.Turn 11 is the last corner. Seehttp://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/:%20http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2a/20080606052257%21Watkins_Glen_International_Circui t_Map.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png&usg=__uHofuH2ZTBj7j5DRQ0yehCOWOx8=&h=490&w=470&sz=21&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Xd4NQD1rFJ94aM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwatkins%2Bglen%2Binternational%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1

Like I said, I cannot recall WGI's numbering scheme. Based on this map...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2a/20080606052257!Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_ Map.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png&usg=__uHofuH2ZTBj7j5DRQ0yehCOWOx8=&h=490&w=470&sz=21&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Xd4NQD1rFJ94aM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwatkins%2Bglen%2Binternational%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1 (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2a/20080606052257%21Watkins_Glen_International_Circui t_Map.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png&usg=__uHofuH2ZTBj7j5DRQ0yehCOWOx8=&h=490&w=470&sz=21&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Xd4NQD1rFJ94aM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwatkins%2Bglen%2Binternational%26um%3 D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1)

Turn 10 is the penultimate. I've flagged there. You can see the station on DL at the entrance to 11.

It doesn't matter whether the drivers can see the exit of T11 at the station as long as the station at T11 can see it and down to the next flagging station. The flag at the entrance to T11 provides information from that point to the next station, regardless of whether drivers can see the next station or not.

[pballance]

I have read and re-read all of the comments. Interesting and without getting into the weeds, I would like to add one more perspective to address OP's original question.

Dave, I think you were correct. It was pounded into my head that the absence of any flag, means the race is on. A yellow or double yellow means no passing, period, end of discussion in my book (also see Butch's comments above)regardless of what is being displayed a corner or two or three in front of me.

This has been affirmed in my time spent flagging and in the driver's seat. I know in SEDIV, if you pass under yellow, expect to have a conversation with the stewards regardless of the circumstances.

At several of the tracks I have raced and flagged, it is not uncommon to "cover a waving yellow" with a standing yellow at the upstream station. It is to tell the drivers that you are about to encounter something, get the car under full control and be careful. Turn 1 at Nashville is that way. You cannot see an incident that is downstream of the apex of turn 1 because of the wall and you don't want to be coming off of the banking into the braking area at a 100+, jousting for position, when 100 feet or less around the corner is a car sitting across the track. You will not see a waving yellow until you have made your turn in. Too late then.

Dave, mistakes happen, you did the right thing, and if the corner stations had reported the pass under yellow in SEDIV, there would be a Stewards discussions with the driver, and maybe penalties, after the race.

Come race with me any time Dave. :)

[quadzjr]

That was alot of reading. Okay, I know what I woudl of done. (saw yellow not passed), but I also see what Janos is saying. The GCR says no passing till incident. So in his example with the 4 corner stations if there was a car pulled over to the side of the road jsut after a standing yellow then you would be allowed to pass after passing the stranded car as allowed in the GCR.

Now if you add a waving yellow at the next station. From how I read the GCR memory may be missing a bit, but once you pass the fie first incdent that resulted in the standing yellow, you are now pass the "incident" and would be allowed to race to the next flaggin station which would have the waving yellow for an on track issue.

My next question is when does the flagging station start? Is there a imaginary line made from the flagging station to the perpendicular of the track? Meaning if you execute a pass and cuts it close to passing under yellow, what is the determing factor if you were still in green or now yellow?

I am racing for fun as well as competitivness. If I see a yellow ahead like has been said I go into "yellow mode" I start driving and looking in caution.

[John Nesbitt]

My next question is when does the flagging station start? Is there a imaginary line made from the flagging station to the perpendicular of the track? Meaning if you execute a pass and cuts it close to passing under yellow, what is the determing factor if you were still in green or now yellow?



The yellow flag zone starts from the flag, not from the station. Draw a line perpendicular from the flag across the track, and there is the start of the no-passing zone.

[quadzjr]

The yellow flag zone starts from the flag, not from the station. Draw a line perpendicular from the flag across the track, and there is the start of the no-passing zone.

Yeah but isn't the flag typically at the station? So if me and you are racing and there is a standing yellow at the hair pin and I pull along side for the pass notice the yellow notice the car off track, and decide that I can pass as long as I can get the nose of my car infront of your in the braking zone as we dive down into the corner, while passing the corner worker stand?

Maybe they need to implement a station rule instead of incident rule. So if there is a wreck at the corner 2 flagging station 1 could throw the yellow and 3 would have the green.

[lateapex911]

Technically, you draw a line perpendicular, as John points out, from the flag across the track. If you are making a pass, you need to complete it before that line. I had a chat with a steward about this, and that's what he stated. (I was being passed, and backed out of it, because I thought it was a stupid idea, in retrospect, perhaps I should have charged in there and not been nice, the other driver would have been charged with a pass under yellow. ) Completion, according to the steward is that your rear bumper breaks the imaginary plane of the nose of the pasee's car.

I think that calling it by the station isn't really much different, typically the difference in position from the flag to the leading edge of the station is what, 3 feet?

It's not pro racing, and pushing it to complete a pass and "get away with it" strikes me as a bonehead move...you're betting somebody else's safety on your talents, and how a guy you're passing will react. I don't like risking others safety.

I think that the Stewards have seen plenty of passes under yellow, and the results can be awful. Putting a standing yellow a station ahead strikes me as a response to our overly aggressive driving over time, and in many places, (such as the 6 /7 combo that Butch describes) it's a great call. I have seen lots pf passes attempted between 6 and 7, and not completed resulting in two cars off through 7.

JJ's practice of deciding he can pass after a non existent 'incident' is selfish and dangerous.

[John Nesbitt]

I think that calling it by the station isn't really much different, typically the difference in position from the flag to the leading edge of the station is what, 3 feet?



There can be a significant distance between the station and the actual yellow flag (Station 1 at Summit Point comes to mind).

Having the flag (rather than the station) as the reference point makes sense. The driver will (should) have seen the flag, and doesn't need to search for the station itself, which can be difficult to see. The flag is the visible thing stuck out into folks' line of sight.

Also, having the flag as reference point makes it easier for the flagger to call passes under yellow, since it happens right at his/her feet. ;-) ;-)

[Brian Holtz]

This has been an interesting discussion. My only input would be to encourage flaggers and drivers to discuss varous flagging situations so that there is more of an understanding from both sides of the armco. While most SCCA trained flaggers in NEDIV don't like to use the backup yellow, it does happen. It can happen at WGI due to the unique flag staffing situation. Butch's example of Road Atlanta is one process that they believe works for them. This practice is also used in various corners at Road America for the same reason.

And Jeff, I'll bite, No Flag.

Brian

[lateapex911]

There can be a significant distance between the station and the actual yellow flag (Station 1 at Summit Point comes to mind).

Having the flag (rather than the station) as the reference point makes sense. The driver will (should) have seen the flag, and doesn't need to search for the station itself, which can be difficult to see. The flag is the visible thing stuck out into folks' line of sight.

Also, having the flag as reference point makes it easier for the flagger to call passes under yellow, since it happens right at his/her feet. ;-) ;-)

I just reread my post, and it wasn't clear, I agree, the line should be from the flag, not the station, for all the reasons you mention.

And I don't think JJ gave us all the info, but no flag does seem like the correct answer...based on his exact scenario. I think his description has it all on the inside of the armco, so it's largely irrelevant to on track activities. Now, race control may decide to go FCY or BFA because too much emergency equipment is tied up and not available for another incident, but thats a case by case call)

[steve b]

after reading all of that I feel I've earned the right to throw in my 2 cents.

Regarding the original post. I swear I remember my classroom instructor stating that when he hears green green green on his radio, he goes. The presumption is that the double yellow will be going down any second. I've also read on this forum of guys who watch cars that have radios to go when they do rather than watch for the double yellow to drop. I don't have a radio, so I would have been sitting there saying WTF? just like the OP.

Reading on, I was shocked to learn that the wording "no passing until after the incident or until the next flag station without a yellow" did not exist in the CGR. Maybe it was beat into my head when I was doing HPDEs. Given the absence of the second half of the language in bold, how do you know when you are past the incident if it isn't there?

I have often come into a corner displaying a flag and when I round the corner I see a cloud of dust, a car coming back up to speed, or nothing at all. Given JJs scenario minus the second flag, when can he pass? Now add the second flag, when can he pass?

I've only been racing for 2 years, but I have never seen nor heard of a back-up flag until reading this thread (yeah, I see it is in the GCR; I know now) I have no problem with the idea, as I have stated before, that such a flag would come in handy at S/F at Summit Point because the flag at T1 is very close to the incident sometimes.

BUT, given the possibility of back up flags, the GCR should be revised to simply state "no passing until reaching the next flag station not displaying a yellow flag".

Back to JJ's scenario, I see a flag but no incident. Several of you have already stated that the reason the back up flag is there is because I may not be able to pick up the next flag station (perhaps they should consider relocating the flag station). So if I can't see the next flag station, and I don't see an incident do I go back to racing?

It's not what I would do, but I can see the need for some clarifications in the GCR.

While I'm on the stump. I'd just like to state that the most surprising thing to me when I started racing was the lack of respect given to yellow flags. A standing yellow at T10 or T1 at summit kills my lap times. Yet others... not so much. This is probably why I've seen 2nd and evern 3rd cars into the gravel pits this season. My friend griped about one of our full course cautions this season. My response "well they can obviously tell that we are too stupid to slow down for a local yellow, so what else can they do?"

I always error on the side of caution, that's part of the reason I'm a mid-packer (okay, back of the packer). But I'm out there to have fun and killing someone is not my idea of having fun.

[gran racing]

Steve, I rely on more communication with the workers to determine how fast I go through a yellow flag station. If it were a standing single yellow and the worker were just holding it. I'd go through the turn pretty quickly BUT be ready for just about anything. If the worker is waiving it, slow down more.

[steve b]

I was referring to times when a car is stuck in the gravel trap and the whole field has been past the incident 1 or 2 times. Everyone knows it is there and some of the field resume racing (not passing, but going through the turn 10/10s)

Next thing you know... car number 2 is in the trap... then car number 3