What do I do about this?

[Jim Royal]

So, Im on the pole in ITC (always a 6-12 car field so yes it was earned). The Last place SM pushes you 2 wheels off on the start by trying to ram his way between me and #2 in ITC. His frnt right was leaning on my driver door pushing me off the track. This is not the first time this dude has hit me and he has hit two other cars in 5 events. In fact I can count 5 metal on metal issues since last fall. To add to that he backed it off into the tires during Qualifying on Sunday and Hit me after a spin during Sundays race. I had a loud but polite conversation with him but it didn't seem to sink in. Rather than just taking him out behind the woodshed how can I throw paper at him so the powers that be start keeping a closer eye on him?

[Steven McWilliams Jr]

file a protest against him, sighting a part of the GCR that he did not abid to (no wreckless driving. Talk to your Steward about him, maybe not just your Steward for your group, but the SOM. Good luck, I hate idiot drivers.

Steven

[dave parker]

Jim
We have only met once, but we raced hard but fair for two days at Nelson Ledges in 2008.
There are two ways to deal with boneheads like this. The first and most accepted way is to file a protest for contact and rough driving. Push the stewards hard on a tough penalty and make it very clear that you will accept nothing less. Keep doing this EVERY time there is contact until this other drivers behavior changes. This will also create a paper trail that will follow this clown. Eventually the stewards will be tired of seeing you and (more importantly) him in the tower. The system works if you use it.

The second way is to be "more to the point" directly with him. I recommend a baseball bat or jack handle.:blink:

cheers
dave parker

[lateapex911]

Jim, the solution is tr=icky, and sadly that means it's not followed up on, and things like this get out of control. As in life, a PAPER trail is key. You can go talk to Steards, but, they really can't do much, without you filing paper. You can tell them about all the incidents until you are blue in the face, but, they really have their hands tied, "where are the past incident reports and protests?", they will ask.

It's too late now, but, next time, march your butt into the tower and demand pencil and paper. Bring your GCR, and start writing. They will likely refer you to a Steward who will help you. It always seems these Stewards try to calm you down and talk you out of it, but, press on, and if they do, tell them firmly that you will be writing it up, and you want their assistance in writing an effective protest. Read the GCR. Also, on this site, there are stickied guides to how to navigate the procedures.

If somebody had done this 5 incidents ago, there wouldn't BE five incidents.

[lateapex911]

The second way is to be "more to the point" directly with him. I recommend a baseball bat or jack handle.:blink:

cheers
dave parker
Those leave evidence.
On a nice humid, hot day, borrow his tie down straps, follow him to Porta Potty. Wait 15 seconds after door closes, wrap strap around porta potty, then push from rear until he's swimming. Walk away.
Soup.

[dickita15]

Jake is right, on his first post anyway, you need to write paper and get others to as well. past incidents are not relevant to the protest at hand. You need to get a paper trail. Once there is a number of findings it is possible to lobby for a driver review that can look at his antics more long term but most problem children have left the club of at least the class by then.

[Jim Royal]

Thanks for the advice. I will have to be more proactive in the future so I can nip these things before they get out of control. I love racing and I don't want my season to be cut shot by a backmarker with a heavy foot and no brain. Here's a link (not mine) from earlier this year where he pushes himself in and then decides he's going too fast and locks up all 4 going into turn 1 at the start. If you look close he actuall hits to Volvo going back into the woods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gospOvuJ7iU&feature=channel

See if you can pick out the A##hat in question?

[seckerich]

First step is to talk with your operating steward for the group. Either your corner workers or the steward are not doing their job. Metal to Metal is to be reported every time and in the Southeast is usually a loss of 2 positions and possible probation if it continues. There should be a corner log for all contact that can be used in dealing with the driver.

Now the unofficial way to handle it is either the port o jon method or make it clear than any future contact will be very expensive as they go by. Always seemed to work well for me.

[R2 Racing]

This is one of the main reasons I moved from ITC to ITA many years ago: fast ITC cars end up right in the middle-back pack of SM's. That's a terrible place to race.

[jumbojimbo]

That's funny, I was about to post the same video. I like the part where he pushes jay practically off track before oak tree and then cuts across his bow, also not nice.

Or this one where he goes two wheels in the grass before the carousel. Yikes, what's the fricking hurry?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_egPesyBEw

So far he hasn't hit me but I think only because I am a scarity-cat. But I do get some classic video from it.

[jumbojimbo]

Sorry Jim, I do not have video of the lap 2 incident at oak tree. I was too far behind after my lap 1 lesson in heat cycled rear tires. I just have the aftermath of him getting back up to speed with his blinker on.

[ITA_honda]

Hmmm seems I missed all the action this weekend. Not that its a good thing. I would have been really upset if that happened to me...especially knowing that guys record of contact, ramming, etc.
Im not sure what you can do now since the race is over...happened in the past. But it sure seems this wasnt a "racing incident" If your the last place Miata..you are not the fastest. Cars 2 classes slower than him beat him. I would never ruin a race between classes. Its just not right.

[Jim Royal]

Here's the video were he lost it going into 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkTfJIla9H4

[Jim Royal]

Here's one from last year. We were coming around to lap him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyUIiwg1rMU&feature=channel

[Jim Royal]

There I got it out of my system! :dead_horse:I will either have to start throwing paper at him or just shut-up and race.

Thanks again! This place is like cheap therapy!

[jay05]

For once I'm actually glad I missed an event. One less C car for him to hit.

[joeg]

Jim--What comments does your Dad have?

BTW, what happened to the Renault on Sunday?

[Jim Royal]

Joe,
I haven't seen dad this happy in a while. He bought a well prepared car and it turns out he's not all that bad at driving it.

I had the fuel injector fail (at least thats what it looks like) it was just dribbling fuel instead of spraying it. The fuel pressure is reading OK so I think the injector packed it in.

I had a great weekend all in all, I just need to make sure everything is up to snuff for IT Fest. You should really try to make that one!

[gran racing]

Since it's more than likeyly that this type of incident will happen again, get yourself prepared with the protest papers prior to the next event.

Have you tried a group talk? Maybe even tell him that you guys are fed up with it, and have everything in line for the next time he does these ontrack antics. Maybe even give the stewards a heads-up and ask that they pay a bit closer attention to this driver.

[BruceG]

Since it's more than likeyly that this type of incident will happen again, get yourself prepared with the protest papers prior to the next event.

Have you tried a group talk? Maybe even tell him that you guys are fed up with it, and have everything in line for the next time he does these ontrack antics. Maybe even give the stewards a heads-up and ask that they pay a bit closer attention to this driver.

Try him out with the fact that more than one driver has him misbehaving on video and if there is anymore contact or poor judgement on his part, several of you will lodge a formal protest.:dead_horse:

[joeg]

Jim--Your dad is a good driver and fun to race with.

Better have Karl do a consult on that injector!

[JIgou]

Video is critical in this instance - otherwise it's your word vs his.

I got taken out by another guy on a straight last year, and if it weren't for the video we'd have likely walked out with it deemed a "racing incident." As it was, with my video he walked away with a probation....one that got increased when he appealed. :D

[shwah]

Being prepared to protest immediately next time around is the right answer. As is making sure he is aware of it. As is making sure that he is aware that the next time around he may find that his car is unable to continue.

I have one case of this happening to me. The guy left the track without saying a word. I spoke to him frankly about it at our next race. I won't tolerate it again.

[lateapex911]

Here's one from last year. We were coming around to lap him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyUIiwg1rMU&feature=channel

what kind of dick move is that on the straight? He's a backmarker in a Sm blocking an ITC car? Ass.....

he needed to be turned.

Assuming he's been talked to in the past, I wouldn't talk or warn him at all at this point. I'd talk to all drivers involved, tell them the next incident is getting paper written. Team up if the $ is an issue, but a protest of on track actions will be cheap. I'd gather my videos like that one, and wait. I would race him clean and hard. I certainly wouldn't get out of the way if I was in the right. Then when he did something similar, to anyone, he gets written.
Flagger reports, video of that incident, and past incidents will be submitted. The Stewards will reject the past videos, of course, but, it won't hurt for them to see one ....
Once you decide (you've decided) to do it, do it all the way.
At this point, I'd say paper is overdue, so, in my eye, the last thing you want is him trying to clean up his act just a little, around just a few guys, as he would if you had a chat with him. You want the maximum attention and penalties that you can bring down, and the Stewards are the ones to hand that out.

Don't worry about being mean, the system will protect him, and will treat him fairly. But it can't if you don't start the ball rolling.

[JohnRW]

If that's who I think it is, he just got OFF probation last month.

Old habits die hard, it seems.

[shwah]

If that is typical, how has this guy not been hit?

Not the 'right' answer, but sometimes the only one certain people understand.

In that last video, when he brake checks in the turn, I don't. End of problem.

[gran racing]

You guys really need to do something about this before he seriously hurts someone else. Do the video and protest route. I'd even contact the stewards now and show a few of these videos. Tell them that you know it needs to follow the rules by filing a protest, but you wanted to give them a heads up.

Like Chris, I highly doubt that I would have resisted giving him a nice punt.

[Jim Royal]

I know, but I don't want to stoop to that level. I do this to get away fom stress not cause myself more. Even having a talk with him on Saturday put my blood in a boil. Even throwing paper around takes the fun out of it! I am going to wipe the slate clean (because the past doesn't count anyway) but at the slightest bump I am ready to pull the trigger. Thank you guys for all your help.

[JohnRW]

Gcr 2.4

[John Nesbitt]

I can’t comment on the particular case here, but I can offer drivers some practical tips about filing a protest.


1. Talking to the other driver or asking the stewards to intervene is nice and all. But remember that you have 30 minutes (from the end of the session in this case) in which to file a protest. This is a hard deadline. The SOM will not extend it unless you can demonstrate that you were unable to file in time.


2. I have seen stewards talk with an angry driver for half an hour, then inform him that it's too late to protest. Make up your mind in advance about your threshold for protesting and have the protest already half-drafted and the protest fee ($25 at regionals, $50 at nationals) to hand. Print a couple of protest forms in advance. Then there is no time wasted “looking” for a form in the tower.

File the protest first. Then talk.


3. If you have made up your mind to protest, do not let yourself be talked out of filing. Insist that the Chief Steward/Asst Chief Steward “receive and transmit” the protest. You don’t need to find the Chief Steward; any Asst Chief Steward (operating steward, tech steward, black flag steward, or safety steward) can receive the protest.


4. If the Chief Steward or operating steward tells you not to protest because he (the steward) is going to take care of it, you face a trade-off.

You can let the steward deal with it, and save the time and stress of protesting. However, you lose standing and are no longer a party to the matter. If you are not satisfied with the outcome, you have nothing to protest/appeal.

If you file a protest, you have standing in the matter. Then you can present evidence to the SOM, and appeal if necessary.


5. A filed protest can be withdrawn anytime before the hearing; an unfiled protest cannot be filed later. You do not have to present all your evidence/witnesses when filing; this is just a placeholder to stop the 30-minute clock.


6. I have seen courts disallow a protest simply because it referenced the “wrong” paragraph (for example, the protest cites 6.11.1.A, and the court determines that 6.11.1.C was violated). This is not supported by the GCR, but courts do it.

If you protest another driver for inappropriate touching, cite everything: 6.11.1.A/B/C/D (Rules of the Road), plus 2.1.4 (Reckless or Dangerous Driving). That way you're covered.


7. There is value in building a paper trail for a bad actor. Eventually, the license consequences become more severe, and can go as far as a driver’s review. However, this won’t happen without a documented history.

[gran racing]

Thanks John! Copying a decent portion of that and filing in my binder that's brought to the track.

Anyone have a PDF or Word version of the most up-to-date protest form? Not that I have any plan to use it, but would be worth having.

[JohnRW]

Here's the "fill-in" version...but you may have to log in to your "SCCA.com" account to get at it -

http://ams.scca.com/netforum/eweb/documenttransfer.aspx?doc=scca_postings/filecabinet/Protest-Protest_Hearing-Decision_Fill_In.pdf

[boywonder]

Here's video from the start of Saturday's race...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1qZBBlOGxA

[Jim Royal]

Wow, I assumed he was going for three wide into 1. The fact that there wasn't anyone beside him and he still pushed me off makes it even worse. Thanks Ryan

[Streetwise guy]

While I would never suggest anything as simple as leaning your left front on his right rear, turning left and backing off slightly next time he tries it, it can leave a lasting impression.

Bad me. Thats the stock car racer talking. This is the roadrace site. Must behave around the civilized folk.:blink:

[Russ Myers]

Take th' ahr off'n his spoiler an' put'im in th'wall.

russ

[boywonder]

Take th' ahr off'n his spoiler an' put'im in th'wall.

hehehehehe

[StephF]

Damn. Once you get his ass straightened out or ruled off, let us New Englanders know. I'd love to come out to where I can have a 6 to 12 car field again, especially on some of the fun tracks you run on.
Our C ranks have been decimated by this very same thing over the past few years. :(

[Jim Royal]

We almost always get a good field at Nelson Ledges. Great guys to race with too. I have been told if I can get 15-18 cars for our spring event next year we can have our own run group! We had I believe 11 or 12 cars for that race this year so it's not that far fetched. All of the ITC drivers try to coordinate what events we do to keep the fields healthy. Let me know if you want an invite!

[StephF]

:happy204:
Let me know! I loved Nelson!

[evanwebb]

Hey it has been 19 years since I visited Nelson, let me know about any big ITC event there, I'd enjoy coming back!

[jay05]

Hey it has been 19 years since I visited Nelson, let me know about any big ITC event there, I'd enjoy coming back!

You should try to make the I.T. Fest. ITC had 15 entrees last year.

[jumbojimbo]

Here is what makes the Nelson ITC races so cool to me. Divisional shootout race (GLD vs NEDIV). Sunday's Race on May 17:

Driver Best time
Bill Shearer 1:22.915
Jim Hardesty 1:23.002
Jim Royal 1:23.976
Jason Jacko 1:24.033
Jon Schnider 1:24.129
Ryan Scott 1:25.106
Gumkoski 1:27.122
Hornack 1:31.271

I don't have the race intervals for Sunday but in the Saturday race I was 3rd to Jim Royal by 0.35 seconds.

And other than a little bump drafting I don't think any ITC cars have hit each other in 6 great races this year at Nelson.

You can see why having an SM car among us acting like a pinball with no regard to other people is a little irritating.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Why is he in a miata anywhere near you? Shouldn't his lap times be much faster?

[Russ Myers]

Because he can't drive a ten penny nail. I've been mugged by Miata's on more than one occasion. In some instances, they don't own the cars, so why should they care about your sheetmetal. I was knocked about by a rent-a-Miata once at Charlotte. He was trying to win the UNTIMED practice session HALF A LAP AWAY FROM THE GRID. When confronted, he told me he was trying to keep up with his friends. He was then informed of his lap times and he wouldn't be able to keep up even if he had a formula 1 car. Sometimes, they just don't care. Afterall, they are the world's greatest race drivers.

Russ

[Z3_GoCar]

Maybe you guys should request a split start?? Let him watch the miata's leave him behind and it'll be a few laps before you guys catch him. Maybe he'll crash him self out before you catch him :D

[StephF]

I've said this before and got truly flamed for it.
I'll say it again, but with clarity this time.
It's nothing to do with the cars. Miatas look like they could be fun.

It's EVERYTHING to do with it seeming that we are getting away from teaching sportsmanship on the track. In all too many cases, it's perfectly fine in the offending driver's eyes to block, chop, hit, shove, and have constant metal to metal contact, in and OUT of their own race group. People....you can't do that. Read the GCR.

I don't know if the message is being taught and ignored in the schools, or if it's gotten lost in the hustle bustle of a school schedule. Maybe the drivers coming in are more aggressive and are not paying attention, (hell, if you want to see aggression, try driving in Boston these days!)

But the simple fact of the matter is, many of us have been hit, blocked, chopped, spun, slammed, banged, totaled and taken out by driving that was more than just a "race incident". And this is happening all across the classes.

Having your brakes fade in the deepest part of a braking zone causing you to hit the car in front of you (despite your best efforts to avoid him) is a race incident.
Driving into the side of someone to stop them getting by you is boneheadedness.

The videos posted in this thread show a "Mememememememe" type of driver who has no clue whatsoever, and furthermore, probably doesn't care.

True racing skill is being able to run doorhandle to doorhandle with someone, trade places on turns, or get by them cleanly WITHOUT CONTACT.
True racing skill is being able to be AWARE of cars that get close to you or alongside you.

We have (or should have) peripheral vision. I've been put over curbs by cars I was completely alongside, like front wheel to front wheel by drivers who later confessed they had no idea I was there. (HOW do you not see something big, metal, and multicolored right next to you?)

A true racer will NOT deliberately impede another race group's race. If you aren't actively dicing for position yourself, and another set of cars is on you, especially if they are running for the lead in their race, LET THEM GO! (I did that in a race that my husband and I were in. He lapped me and I let the second place car in his class through without any bullshit. Not my race, not my place to get in the middle of theirs)

The GCR has been relegated to a manual used to defend people's position, be it technical or in protest. Far too few ever truly look at sections that cover racing conduct.

I don't know what the answer would be to change this trend. All I can say is this kind of reckless driving has cost a lot of people a lot of time and money, even leading to some drivers walking away from SCCA.

I also want to remind those drivers who do indulge in it this kind of driving, that in the words of our own Bruce Kapstan, "We're just racing for a f**king ashtray."

And as long as we have to share track time with other groups, we are going to run into this.

OK, I'm getting off my soapbox. Where's my f**king ashtray?

[BruceG]

Right on, Steph!! In the 60's, sportsmanship was taught the in racing school and enforced by the stewards and staff at the tracks.
No longer...even racing incidents go unexplained by the offender.

[RacerBill]

Steph, you are right on! Metal to metal contact, shoving, etc MUST NOT be allowed. This is serious stuff, and there is a high risk of injury or worse. There will always be racing incidents and 'racing incidents', however even these MUST be avoided. In defense of true racing incidents, I have come close, once when a car dive bombed me after I started my turn in and the side of windowsill of the brick I was driving was about six inches highter than normal and his hood was much lower (I did not see him until I saw his roof). When I had checked my mirrors, he was twenty-thirty feet behind me. You can't keep watching your mirrors all the time, gots to see where you need to be turning!.

But back to racing incidents. Today we lost a fellow driver, from what I understand was a racing incident, not a single car incident. I did not see the incident, and it is still being investigated, but while I was at the track, I did not hear any comments that implied that there was any contact or deliberate offensive driving. One does not have to be grossly negligent in our sport to cause bodily injury. Deliberate stupidity cannot be allowed to continue.

Bonehead driving MUST be stopped. I read most of the reports of the COA, and I do not remember any appeal that involved a fine. Don't we issue fines anymore? They are still available as penalties. And in the case of metal to metal contact, how about if a large percentage of the fine was awarded to the offended driver to help fix the damage to his car.

But, again, even if there are no fines, a protest would establish a paper trail that could be reviewed at license renewal time. I am glad that I have a video acquisition system in my car, and would be willing to use any video as evidence. I have one video (taken at Nelson Ledges, by the way) of a SM at the start of the Saturday race at the Great Pumpkin last year that absolutely hammered an ITC car at the start of the race. Investigation of the data and two of the three camera recordings show that the driver of the car that was hit was not shifting at the point of impact. Looking at the video from the rear camera shows the SM intentionally dropping back and getting a good run on Karl. And the cockpit camera shows his head flying back againt the seat on impact. Speed data shows a instantaneous increase in speed by about 5 mph at the time of the impact. Karl was too nice to persue the matter.

And I do stress sportsmanship and good judgement with the students that I instruct at drivers' school.

OK, I'll get off my soap box now.

[John Nesbitt]

But, again, even if there are no fines, a protest would establish a paper trail that could be reviewed at license renewal time. I am glad that I have a video acquisition system in my car, and would be willing to use any video as evidence. I have one video (taken at Nelson Ledges, by the way) of a SM at the start of the Saturday race at the Great Pumpkin last year that absolutely hammered an ITC car at the start of the race. Investigation of the data and two of the three camera recordings show that the driver of the car that was hit was not shifting at the point of impact. Looking at the video from the rear camera shows the SM intentionally dropping back and getting a good run on Karl. And the cockpit camera shows his head flying back againt the seat on impact. Speed data shows a instantaneous increase in speed by about 5 mph at the time of the impact. Karl was too nice to persue the matter.



This posting illustrates two important points.

First, there are not likely to be any significant license consequences (suspension, driver review, requirement to re-take drivers school) without a paper trail. These penalties typically don't get handed out for a first offence.

There are cases from the Court of Appeals where an SOM court handed down a severe penalty (suspension) to a driver who had some history, but no paper trail. The CoA reduced the penalty because it was out of proportion to the offence, and there was no history (i.e. paper) on the driver.

Draw your own conclusions.


Second, the GCR makes it clear that there is a shared responsibility among stewards and drivers for rules enforcement.

When I am an operating steward, I try to investigate every report of contact. However, not every contact gets called in from the corners. This isn't NASCAR or F1; we don't have video from every inch of the track.

The posting cites an incident where there appears to have been evidence of avoidable contact, yet the victim did not protest because he is "too nice". That's nice, but the offender suffered no consequence at all.

Complaining months later on a website does absolutely nothing at all to correct this behavior. If this is truly an issue, file a protest. Otherwise, don't complain when the behavior continues.

[StephF]

I agree totally with a paper trail. It sucks to have to initiate it, but when it's necessary, it has to happen. Been there, done that, didn't get the tee shirt. (I don't qualify as "too nice" to file a protest. :p )

I also think the more data the better. We have run cameras front and rear in our cars. And we've caught people ramming us, putting us off in the gravel. (and I also caught Ed as he was spinning backwards, flipping of the hitter as their cars were nose to nose in the busstop at the Glen...LOL)
I think data acquisistion is very important. The more info recorded, the better.

I know the stewards and workers aren't responsible for calling in/handling incidents. I don't expect that.
BUT....is there anything the club, or the drivers could do to slow/stop/reverse this seemingly growing trend towards rough/careless driving?

What is causing it? Is it the huge number of classes we have that run together?

Is it the schooling the drivers are receiving prior to racing?

Are we getting more drivers with a sense of "entitlement", and acting like they aren't really part of the club? (I've heard this mentioned as a reason, but can't say I've run into it)

Should the driver's schools involve testing on the GCR, select portions of it that many random questions would be selected from, much like a state driver's test?

Or should a section drilling home conduct both on and off the track, be part of the school process?

With that in mind, could drivers (such as the one referenced in this thread) be remanded to reschooling sessions if enough incidents are recorded?

Does this vary from region to region? I remember being really impressed with running at Road America, how clean everyone raced. Why? Geographics? Regional politics? Why would one area race cleaner (seemingly) than another?

Last, but not least, to those who have a longer history that I running with SCCA (I've only been racing since '98) do you see this issue as a constant problem, one that is the same that it's always been, or has it worsened significantly over the years?
If it is worse now, than why? Maybe if the cause could be identified, we could put safe guards in place to correct it.

We will always have the odd one who rams through the field like an errant bowling ball, but that should be the exception, not the rule.

[lateapex911]

What's causing this in part is us. We're too lazy/pressed to leave the track/disdainful of paperwork and the hassle/disdainful of face to face conflict or lacking backbone to step up and write the paper.

Truly it's sometimes a "no big deal". Maybe the guy WAS an ass, but the resulting damage will buff out, and the wife/husband is on the phone wondering when you're going to be home, the kids crying for their Mom/Dad, etc etc, it's hot, you're tired, bla bla bla, and the call is made to 'Just forget about it"

Paperwork is stressful. Protests cause people to leave the sport, even when they are in the right. I've seen it happen.

So, on one hand, we have to man up more. While the Asshat was a bully to us but caused no real damage, the next time might be different. He sees his behavior as "the norm" because nobody objects to it.....and continues driving in that manner. And, if somebody DOES complain, his egotistical/defensive reaction is, "YOU must be the jerk, because NObody has ever said a THING to me about my driving." And hey, there are 100 cars at the events he attends that he can hit before he hits the same one twice in some areas, so there is no "reputation". Guys like that can have thick heads, and thick heads need lots of pounding to get the point through.

On the other hand, I'd love it if the Stewards could be sterner about it, and if corner workers called in more incidents. Recently, at Lime Rock, we had a car go off in Big bend. EV came out, so we had a standing yellow at that corner, and later at Start/Finish. I was racing hard with a guy who has pushed me aside before, and is up on me in hp., and I'd been defending the inside of that corner. Because I knew we'd see a standing yellow for several laps there, as EV pulled the car, I took my normal line, and braked a bit early, as a mistake under braking would result in me sliding into the workers...(a tangent thing). My follower ignored that risk, and dove inside to make the pass for 3rd. IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN. Then, on the very next lap, he DID IT AGAIN to the guy in second! I chuckled. "See ya at the bottom of the results, pass under yellow boy!", I thought.
IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN EITHER!
It was So blatant, I assumed it would be. So I'M guilty too, of not running over after the race and making a stink.
Results didn't indicate it, and the guy who got passed for 2nd had even gone to the Stewards about it. Good for HIM.
I did too, but later. The Chief Steward was fair, and pointed out that he had no "proof" that it had happened. No video in my car, and inconclusive in his eyes in the other guys car. He stated that the pass could have been completed by the time we crossed the perpendicular line at the flag station. I responded, "Maybe so, but by the hair on your chin, and if I had pressed the issue, he would have been guilty, as he wouldn't have been able to complete the pas by then, but because I was concerned for the workers safety, he gets away with it?" He also said that he interviewed the offending driver, and asked if he saw the flag at start finish? "What flag". That's right, he missed that one, and pushed his luck on the other!

Result?
"I gave him a stern talking to".

:shrug:
I respect the CS, and his actions in this case, assuming he was bound by the GCR and protocol to do what he did.
But, that crap sure shouldn't fly.

[gran racing]

Result?
"I gave him a stern talking to".

Even when prepared to throw paper (i.e. Travis incident a while back), the stewards did everything possible to deter me from doing that. It needs to be a change among drivers and workers.

[StephenB]

I am on my phone typing so this will be short ... my first thought would be impound ALL at every race. It doesn't create any hardship on volunteers ( that I can think of) and it creates an environment where you have to look at each other face to face and it gives others the opportunity to talk if they wish. At my last race I don't even know what a few of the drivers even looked like that were in my class! Shame on me for never going to meet them but in reality this probably happens all the time.

Stephen

[John Nesbitt]

Even when prepared to throw paper (i.e. Travis incident a while back), the stewards did everything possible to deter me from doing that. It needs to be a change among drivers and workers.

This, unfortunately, is true of some stewards. If you have made up your mind to protest, do not let yourself be deflected. Tell the Chief Steward (politely) that you are firm on protesting. If the Chairman of the SOM tries to dissuade you, insist that the protest be heard.

I mentioned this in an earlier post, but it bears repeating. If the Chief Steward tries to persuade you not to protest, saying that s/he will "take care" of it, remember that, by not protesting, you lose your standing in the affair. You will have no recourse if the Chief Steward's (in)action doesn't satisfy you. Only by filing a protest do you become a party to the case.

[StephF]

If you should ever be in a situation where a steward tries to tell you they aren't going to even listen to whatever you are coming to protest about, or they try to refuse to accept a protest from you, then be aware that you have the right to protest them as well.
That happened to me and I didn't know that I could have (and probably should have) protested the official in question.
That being said, I also would not make a habit out of filing frivolous protests either.

[John Nesbitt]

If you should ever be in a situation where a steward tries to tell you they aren't going to even listen to whatever you are coming to protest about, or they try to refuse to accept a protest from you, then be aware that you have the right to protest them as well.



This is kind of a detour from the subject of the thread, but it may be useful information for drivers.

1. If you file a protest, you submit it (with the protest fee) to the Chief Steward (or an Asst Chief Steward). The only function of the Chief Steward in the protest process is to receive the protest and transmit it to the SOM. Period. End of Story. The Chief Steward has nothing to say about the timeliness or validity of the protest.

If your protest is filed in a timely manner, or you can demonstrate that you could not file within the time limit because of circumstances beyond your control, the SOM is required to hear (not necessarily uphold) your protest. If you disagree with their judgment, you have the right to appeal that judgment.


2. If you have a problem with any official at an event, speak to the Chief Steward, who supervises all officials except the SOM. If you are not satisified with the Chief Steward's response (or your problem is with the Chief Steward), contact the Executive Steward for the Division.

My sense is that the leadership of the stewards program wants to resolve problems, but they can do that only if they are aware of the problems.

[jjjanos]

I know the stewards and workers aren't responsible for calling in/handling incidents. I don't expect that.

As someone who got started as a flagger, I would disagree. We're should be looking for and calling in incidents.


BUT....is there anything the club, or the drivers could do to slow/stop/reverse this seemingly growing trend towards rough/careless driving?

Keep rich guys who pay someone to prep their car out?


What is causing it? Is it the huge number of classes we have that run together?

I don't think so. There seems to be a lack of sportsmanship and awareness.


Is it the schooling the drivers are receiving prior to racing?

Yes. I would say that the classroom debriefs are of little value except when someone has done something stupid and the incident is being debriefed. Listing the car numbers that hit the apex or missed the apex is useless and sometimes the same car # is on both lists for the same corner.

Same goes for the Friday night classroom session. GCR test is meaningless and useless.

I think it would be far more beneficial to discuss racing etiquette. Things like -- you are running 6th in class and between the class leaders of the next slower class. 5th place is not in striking distance. It might be if you can get past the 1st place car, but then you still have to hunt him down and make the pass. The race is at half-distance.

What do you do? Well, what I did was get out of the way and let them have their race because I didn't have a race..

Show in-car and spectator videos of people doing stupid things. Explain why it is stupid. Tell them what the drivers did wrong. Tell them what the driver did right.

For example, there's a video (youtube?) from one of the 12 Hours at the Point that really demonstrates why you lock down your car. An SM spins coming out of 10, doesn't lock it down and takes out a second car.

Which is more effective? Telling people to lock it down or showing them what happens when you don't?


Should the driver's schools involve testing on the GCR, select portions of it that many random questions would be selected from, much like a state driver's test?

Nope.


Or should a section drilling home conduct both on and off the track, be part of the school process?

Yep.

[BruceG]

The Romans had a similar breakdown of track etiquette at the collesium towards the end of the Empire....LOL:024:

[Knestis]

It's not about knowledge. It's about attitudes, which are a product of culture. We - collectively - LET this become part of our culture.

K

[StephF]

But is it a new attitude?
I honestly don't know. :shrug:

[jumbojimbo]

Wait a minute, am I reading this right? Are you guys saying that the stewards can't do anything unless someone files a protest?

It was not my impression that the stewards are in a locked room with no windows and can only act on papers that are passed thru a slot in the door. We're not electing a pope here.

I thought the stewards were responsible for the conduct of the race and had the power (and responsibility) to create a request for action any time behavior is witnessed by anyone that violates the rules, especially rules that compromise safety.

If bad things are happening at an event, the stewards are responsible for stopping it. They can't just throw their hands up and say "hey, no one complained about that car that bounced off 6 others." The safe and fair conduct of an event is the steward's responsiblity isn't it? It would not be ok for all the GT1 drivers to get together before a race and say "no rules today, lets go ahead an play nascar today."

Granted the stewards can only act on what they observe, but to put all the responsibility on the drivers to file a protest is unfair. We all have different opinions on what is appropriately agressive driving and what is pinata driving.

No driver wants to file and be the guy who complains. A quiet word to the stewards to watch someone is appropriate and SHOULD result in the stewards actually observing and taking action if appropriate. If a driver has a problem with another driver's actions on Saturday and he speaks to the stewards I thought it was within their power (and again their responsiblity) to observe that driver on Sunday and take action if action is appropriate.

[StephenB]

Again I am on my phone so this will be short... you are correct!

Stewards can and have held drivers accountable for their actions. Even I was penalized by a steward. : ) or maybe : ( I was actually at the ARRC racing in second/ third / fourth depending on the lap with Justin pool. Together we made minor metal to metal 3 times during the race one time being a bump draft. In the end neither car had any dents, just one minor scratch on my car. I ended up fourth and we arrived at the tech shed with all grins! Then the provisional results came out with both of us penalized three spots. I had never met Justin nor had I ever raced in this region and was shocked since my region had never done this, especially since we both had no issues with eachother. In the end we together protested the stewards for the severity of the penalty and took a 1 year probation instead of the 3 spot finishing penalty.

So yes even if the drivers are 100% OK with eachother and happy as can be and no significant damage exists it is still within their power, right, and responsibility.

Stephen

[jumbojimbo]

Yeah, ignore my earlier post. That kind of description shows a lack of common sense and reminds me why it would be a mistake to say to a steward "Hey, you should watch the miata and ME very closely today." Who knows when I'll accidently bump an orange miata on the start.

[John Nesbitt]

Wait a minute, am I reading this right? Are you guys saying that the stewards can't do anything unless someone files a protest?

It was not my impression that the stewards are in a locked room with no windows and can only act on papers that are passed thru a slot in the door. We're not electing a pope here.

I thought the stewards were responsible for the conduct of the race and had the power (and responsibility) to create a request for action any time behavior is witnessed by anyone that violates the rules, especially rules that compromise safety.

If bad things are happening at an event, the stewards are responsible for stopping it. They can't just throw their hands up and say "hey, no one complained about that car that bounced off 6 others." The safe and fair conduct of an event is the steward's responsiblity isn't it? It would not be ok for all the GT1 drivers to get together before a race and say "no rules today, lets go ahead an play nascar today."

Granted the stewards can only act on what they observe, but to put all the responsibility on the drivers to file a protest is unfair. We all have different opinions on what is appropriately agressive driving and what is pinata driving.

No driver wants to file and be the guy who complains. A quiet word to the stewards to watch someone is appropriate and SHOULD result in the stewards actually observing and taking action if appropriate. If a driver has a problem with another driver's actions on Saturday and he speaks to the stewards I thought it was within their power (and again their responsiblity) to observe that driver on Sunday and take action if action is appropriate.

See post #50, above.

The short version: Drivers and stewards have a shared responsibility for rules enforcement.

You write, "No driver wants to file and be the guy who complains. A quiet word to the stewards to watch someone is appropriate .." That's not how it works. If the stewards receive a report from a corner about an incident, or observe it themselves, they have the duty of investigating and acting.

However, if there is no official report, the steward has nothing to go on. Not every incident is witnessed by an official. In those cases, it is up to the affected driver to protest. You are not the "guy who complains"; you are the guy who exercises his right to a safe race track.

If all you do is complain on a forum, then all you accomplish is to hear yourself complain.

[lateapex911]

Yea, WE are out there. WE are the drivers, and WE know more about racing than most Stewards, some who haven't ever raced, and some who haven't raced in a loong time. (There ARE a bunch who HAVE raced, but, often they aren't in a position to actually SEE any of the racing. )

So, it IS up to us, in 80% of the cases, to be the whistle blowers.

(I an totally guilty myself as I witnessed the same guy make TWO passes under yellow, two laps in a row, at the same corner after the yellow had been out for a number of laps. I thought it was SO obvious that he'd be going straight to hell, and the flaggers would honey pot him at first sight. So I didn't file. Wrong move)

[StephF]

Back on the number of ITC cars tangent, we were talking with Fred White yesterday at NHMS, and he would be interested in making a road trip out next year also. So there's two potential C cars from New England. Maybe we can drum up some folks from NJ/PA area like Meg. Could be fun!

[Jim Royal]

I Asked at our meeting last week how many cars would be the min. to get our own ITC group. They all committed to me that if I can get 15 car to show up we would have our very own group. I'll have to look at My Laps, but I believe we had 9 or 10 cars at that race this year. This could really happen with a little help from people like you who are willing to make the trip! I will start a new thread to highlight this once I get a bit more information. Thanks for the interest, this could turn out to be alot of fun.

[Knestis]

Dissenting opinion warning...

Regions can obviously do any darned thing that they want but separate run groups for as few as 15 cars is *not* a direction I'd want to see the Club go. This entire game is based on multi-class race groups and (among other things) the imposition in terms of the length of time we ask workers to stand in the sun means that we need to be circumspect about the practice of adding groups. Particularly if the impetus for doing so is a problem (e.g., dumbass driving by a few) that should be dealt with in more direct ways.

K

[Jim Royal]

I guess this is the wrong thread to discuss this, The reason for the separate run group is not to run away from bad driving but rather somthing neat that ITC drivers NEVER get to do. My motive to put this together is simply to give those with a C car lots of other C cars to run with for a change. Also unless it rains very few of us have had the chance of leading the pack on the overall pole! I also agree about run groups with 15 cars but I remember that is the MIN. I hope to see more than that!

[dickita15]

I do not see anything wrong with giving a class a feature position for one weekend, particularly with a class like C that most of the time does not get that treatment. NER started doing a Vee fest with our early June regional. A couple of the Vee guys came up with the idea. Vee fields are not usually great at NHMS. All the region gave them was a their own race group and their own section in the paddock for this one event. Some of the drivers begged door prizes. I think they gave away $3k in stuff this year.

When you have a bunch of people who run a few events a year it makes sense to try to get them to all run the same weekends.

[joeg]

That's right! And a 15 car "group" is by no means that small these days...unfortunately.