Following the safety car

[spawpoet]

I hope I don't look too stoopid here, but we had an issue that came up in my drivers school a couple of weeks ago. I kinda think this should be covered in the GCR, and I wanted to canvas everybody here for their opinion.
We had a double yellow come out, and the safety car picked me up, and we circulated for I think two laps. Then without turning their lights off the safety car turned into the pits. My dumb butt assumed they left the lights on in error, and proceeded around the track expecting to get the green at the starters stand. Like baby ducks every other car followed me (even though some knew better). I had no idea the rest of the way around the track why the corners workers were so demonstrably upset, and we were all black flagged. Needless to say, I now realize exactly what I did wrong, and why it was wrong. The thing is, it wasn't covered in the classroom sessions up to that point, and more importantly it's not explicitly stated in the GCR that you have to follow the safety car WHEREVER IT GOES when its lights are on. I realize to a lot of people this may just be common knowledge, but I'm not the only one out there who was so naive. Not only did I and my run group make the mistake, but the following group made the same mistake. Maybe they cover this in every drivers school, but I still think it should also be mentioned in the GCR under the safety car section. I guarantee I wouldn't have made the mistake had it been in there. So my real question is what say you???? If you agree that it should be in the GCR how do we get it added?


BTW, on an aside, I thought that the people in Central Florida Region did a terriffic job with the school. There were a lot of "learning moments", I thought my instructor was excellent, and the people were just top notch to deal with. I'm very thankful to be a member in the SCCA in large part to all the people I have met in the club.

[JLawton]

I would think they would put the black flags out before the pace car came in. i would have done the same thing.........

[Greg Amy]

Ditto...I would have stayed on the track...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Me too. No black flag, I wouldn't have come in. To further that, the very next station would have probably been S/F. Did they have double yellows out or a black? If they had nothing, I would have thought it went green!

[JoshS]

Are you sure that they didn't show you a black from the corner stations before you got to the pit entrance? I'm guessing you were just watching the pace car and failed to notice the black flag.

If the corners were still showing yellow though, then I would have stayed out too.

[StephenB]

You do not follow the pacecar into the pits without a black flag regardless of the lights on it. If it does pull in you need to maintain the same speed on track until you see a green flag. No flag in turn 1 would equal green! Go go go! As an ITB car you always watch the last flag station before start. No flags and the course is green.

I would bet you had a black flag that you may have missed which is the reason the pace car came in.

Stephen

[GKR_17]

I've seen twice now (in Florida) where the lead car didn't follow the pace car correctly on the pace lap. Needless to say they got to meet with the stewards later.

At Daytona they often send the pace car down pit lane, and then skip the infield on the 2nd pace lap for enduros.

[Mazmarc63]

Hey Chris,

It was nice to meet you. You did a great job at the school in that old relic. I'm looking forward to racing with you.

As Grafton mentioned, last year we had two consecutive polesitters NOT follow the pace car (with lights on) at Daytona. Is it in the GCR?? Don't know. Did they test you at the school?? Yup.

I was speaking with the pace car driver last weekend at Daytona about this. They did that based on what happened last year to test the students and...teach something that apparently (based on responses in this thread) needs teaching.

All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!

You have re-sparked my interest in this matter. I'm gonna discuss this with a VIP :D later. If its not in the GCR, it needs to be.

By the way, we had a full course yellow, red, black and checkerd flags all in about 3 min at Daytona last weekend. Thats two red flags in two May Daytona enduros in two years.:shrug:

[Greg Amy]

All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!
I'll remain open-minded on this, and I'll re-read the GCR later this AM, but I challenge you and the Florida stewards:

Show it to me in the GCR. If it ain't there, you're all wrong-o...

I kinda wish I'd been there*, I'd have challenged the stewards to show it to me in the GCR...

GA

*Reminds me of an old joke...

[dickita15]

I was speaking with the pace car driver last weekend at Daytona about this. They did that based on what happened last year to test the students and...teach something that apparently (based on responses in this thread) needs teaching.

All i know is if the lights are on, FOLLOW THE PACE CAR!!





I am glad I was not there I would have got it “wrong”

There is nothing in the GCR that says that. If it is what you want to be the local custom you better start putting it in the supps.

[spawpoet]

Marc,
Thank you, and it was great to meet you as well. Again our whole group agreed that CFR did a great job with the school. I hope everybody was OK at the enduro last weekend.

As for what happened on track at the school, there was no black flag out when the pace car went down pit lane. I was actually counting/rechecking all the flag stations since we were under a double yellow, and was especially wary of watching the black flag station which was the last station before pit-in. When they first told me I goofed and should have followed the pace car down pit lane, I couldn't figure out why. The explanation is simple enough though. If there is a major incident on track, and the pace car has to drive off track to get around it (like via access roads or pit lane) they kind of need us to follow it. Most of the time they will just get a black flag out, and bring everybody in, but there are times when this may not happen in time. I did see an IMSA race in the early 90's where the field was taken off course to drive around an on track issue, so it's not unprecedented.

[spawpoet]

I'll remain open-minded on this, and I'll re-read the GCR later this AM, but I challenge you and the Florida stewards:

Show it to me in the GCR. If it ain't there, you're all wrong-o...

I kinda wish I'd been there*, I'd have challenged the stewards to show it to me in the GCR...

GA

*Reminds me of an old joke...


It's NOT in the GCR. I did my homework before the school, and when this happened I was dumbfounded cause I was sure I had never heard it before. That said I think it NEEDS to be in the GCR. That's why I brought the issue up here.

[Greg Amy]

Chris/Marc et al, I just looked, and as Dick noted, it's not in the GCR. Therefore, assuming there was nothing in the supps about it, and the track flag conditions were truly double-yellow and not BFA, then the students were correct and the Stewards were wrong.

It's as simple as that.

Flags tell the driver about track condition and what to do about it. The pace car gathers and slows the pace of the cars. It's one thing to follow the pace car around a visible incident, it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish to follow the pace car off the track. Had the stewards wanted the cars off the track they could have gone Black Flag All or thrown the checker, either of which tells the drivers that the session is over and to proceed to the pits. There are no other directives that I can immediately find that tells the drivers that they must proceed to the pits, especially if the flag conditions remained double yellow all.

You guys can follow the pace car into the pits all you want, and the stewards can continue with a false sense of control over the field, but if this happens to me I'm staying on the track, I'll win the race, and we can discuss this via a $25 letter to the Topeka Court of Appeals...

The GCR applies to everyone involved, including the organizers and stewards. There's nothing in there that says we can make up rules as we go along...

GA

[John Nesbitt]

The GCR is silent on following the safety car down pit lane.

In situations where the normal procedure (e.g. on pace laps) is to go down pit lane or otherwise deviate from the normal racing course, this should be called out in the supps, and underlined at the drivers meeting.

Keep in mind that the usual reason for the safety car's leaving its lights on when entering pit lane is that the driver forgot to turn them off.

Keep in mind also that a black flag means "Come into the pits and stop." I am not sure that we want to overload that meaning with another possible meaning. The great value of each flag is that it has a single, clear, unambiguous meaning.

This is an interesting problem, and I am not sure that there is a solution that fits all cases. You might contact the CRB (www.crbscca.com (http://www.crbscca.com)), and propose something.

[Mazmarc63]

Greg/Dick, thanks for checking. Great topic. I'm gonna talk to Mr. Langlotz about this. I may suggest he post a response here. I am very interested in this as I was *involved* in the two episodes last year.

Chris, everyone was okay in the incedent that ended the enduro.

So check this out. Mark Nasrallah, in an ITS 944, got lucky and pitted just before the first full course caution and gained a lap on the field. Then, as the race was on its final laps, he was very slow ( I actually passed him twice). His LR wheel bearing failed and the wheel seperated itself from the rest of the car just past T&S, DL. Apparently it caused a small fire, hence the red flag. Scoring went back to the previous lap which gave him the win in ITS. We were second.:D

[gran racing]

Even after reading this, if I see it in the future I'm staying out.


As Grafton mentioned, last year we had two consecutive polesitters NOT follow the pace car (with lights on) at Daytona. Is it in the GCR?? Don't know. Did they test you at the school?? Yup.[/QUOTE]

Then this needs to be stopped. If it's not in the GCR or supps, then guess what.

[QUOTE]That said I think it NEEDS to be in the GCR.

No it doesn't. We already have proceedures for these types of situations defined and there's no reason to add further wording when it's already in there. Black flag all, not too difficult.

[Dave Gomberg]

It is true that the GCR is silent on this issue. I have been in this situation both as a pace car driver and as a driver. In each case, what was done is that the pace car driver (and the person riding shotgun) gestured to the cars behind to go into pit lane. At the same time, a corner worker stood track side and pointed the cars into pit lane. (There are some tracks where it may be difficult for a corner worker or pit marshal to do this.) Putting something in the Supps does not seem to solve the problem because if the safety car driver forgets to turn off the lights, the result is less than optimal.

Dave

[gran racing]

Although it would be funny to watch depending upon where the safety car decides to park it. LOL

[Greg Amy]

...what was done is that the pace car driver (and the person riding shotgun) gestured to the cars behind to go into pit lane. At the same time, a corner worker stood track side and pointed the cars into pit lane.
If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA

[erlrich]

Well, there is this, from 6.6.2:

The safety car will maintain the established pace, extinguish the lights, and exit the course prior to a restart. Drivers must maintain the safety car’s pace and not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed to restart the race.

...but I think it's a bit too much to extrapolate from this that the cars are required to follow the pace car down pit lane if the lights don't go out. If I were the lead car I'm pretty sure I would not have followed him down pit lane, but like most of us if I weren't the leader I would probably have just done what everyone else did. :D

[Dave Gomberg]

If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA
Actually, there are multiple reasons not to do a BFA. First, the reason for taking the field through the pits is to allow cleanup of the area of the track between pit in and pit out. This may require a tow vehicle to briefly block the track; once done, the race may be able to continue on the next lap. Second, a BFA requires resetting the running order to the last completely scored lap. This takes time to do because T&S has to create the restart order, convey it to the pit marshals, re-order cars, give a restart signal and do a pace lap before racing can resume. Doing the cut-through via the pit lane is much simpler.

As for danger to the workers, if the safety car enters the pits slowly, the cars following will be going slowly as well. There is no more danger to the worker directing cars into the pits than a worker at an incident during a full course yellow pointing cars to the side of the track away from the incident. Note that I said track side, not from the middle of the track.

Dave

[Greg Amy]

That makes sense, Dave; someone else offered that possibility to me via PM as well. However, given that is likely a track-specific/regional thing (the PM'er offered as an example a wreck on the front straight at Road America) then that should be covered in the supplementary regulations (and, in further defense of the students from last weekend, such an incident would probably have been obvious to the drivers prior to the pace car pulling out, whereas there was no way it could be in the school.)

Bottom line in my mind, there is no described case in the GCR/Supps where a driver should expect or be prepared to follow the pace car through the pits, so assuming and expecting drivers to "get it" without prior notification of the possibility is very dangerous. I suggest that if nothing else, the above posts - from very experience drivers - illustrates this point decisively.

Put it in the GCR and/or the Supps if you wish to use this procedure, but expect significant confusion, a BFA, resetting the running order to the last completely scored lap, conveying it to the pit marshals, and giving a restart signal to do a pace lap when a pace car operator neglects to turn off the lights on a regular restart...

GA

[Racerlinn]

I don't have a GCR at hand, but.....
If the pace car has the field already in tow, and there is track blockage (for EV), then I would fully expect a red flag to be used.

[spawpoet]

I don't have a GCR at hand, but.....
If the pace car has the field already in tow, and there is track blockage (for EV), then I would fully expect a red flag to be used.


This brings up another good point as to why to not use the double yellow/drive down pit lane process. What if the pace car DOESN'T have the entire field in tow and you try to drive around a blockage via pitlane??? The cars that the pace car hasn't picked up WILL stay out as they would have nobody to follow into the pits. That's another reason to simply use a bfa or red flag depending on conditions.

Well now, I don't quite feel so stoopid for staying out on track in the school. :D

[Racerlinn]

Oops - except after a red flag - you must the return to the pits. That's not the solution....

[erlrich]

I agree with Dave that a BFA is probably not the way to go in a situation where you only want to detour through the pits. I also agree with Steve however, in that I would expect either a BFA or a red flag if there were sufficient track blockage to warrant such a detour.

I can also see how, if this were to occur anywhere else on the track - e.g. the pace car were to use a cut-over road to avoid a clean up zone (as could possibly happen if there were a major problem at T1 at Summit) - that drivers wouldn't hesitate to follow the pace car; it's just the whole pit road aspect that throws wrench into the works. In either case I would think a worker directing traffic would be the optimal solution. As Dave noted, we (flaggers/ev workers) are often out there directing traffic for on-track incidents, why not in this case?

[snook]

I was also at the drivers school as a driver, I'm also a steward. At one of the drivers meeting prior to the afternoon sessions Jack, pace car driver, mentioned that one should follow the pace car when the lights are on. The next session out we went FCY and he picked me up and circulated for one lap then went into the pits with most if not all of the field of the field in tow, this ended the session. In CFR the tracks we run have a couple of configurations that will allow cars to circulate while clean-up is being done.
While it does not specifically address the issue if thew safety car goes down pit lane and the field does not then the field would have passed the safety car, see 6.2.2. While it is not explicitly stated I believe that the SOMs would use that as the basis for a ruling. :bash_1_:

[Dave Gomberg]

That makes sense, Dave; someone else offered that possibility to me via PM as well. However, given that is likely a track-specific/regional thing (the PM'er offered as an example a wreck on the front straight at Road America)
RA is hardly the only track where this can happen. Off the top of my head: Watkins Glen, Pocono (clockwise), Thunderbolt, Lightning, Summit Point, Mosport, Beaverun, Nelson Ledges, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Firebird, Phoenix, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Portland, Pacific Raceway. Its harder to think of places that it couldn't apply.

then that should be covered in the supplementary regulationsI still don't see how that helps - and the instance when the pace car doesn't shut down the lights on a normal end to a FCY, makes things worse.[/QUOTE]

(and, in further defense of the students from last weekend, such an incident would probably have been obvious to the drivers prior to the pace car pulling out, whereas there was no way it could be in the school.)

Bottom line in my mind, there is no described case in the GCR/Supps where a driver should expect or be prepared to follow the pace car through the pits, so assuming and expecting drivers to "get it" without prior notification of the possibility is very dangerous. I suggest that if nothing else, the above posts - from very experience drivers - illustrates this point decisively.I agree that you can't expect drivers to divine intent. That's why it can only work with the appropriate signals from the safety car and workers.

Dave

[benspeed]

Funny story - I was at a PDA performance driving event at Pocono about 12 years ago. The fog was rolling in major and it looked like the event was going to be cancelled. The organizers asked everybody to saddle up to get a run in. We followed the pace car around as the fog blew in thick.

We were running the North Course and the pace car, with lights flashing proceeded to drive off the track at the end of the straightaway, over the grass, get lost and stop. Visibility was zero. Of course we all followed the pace car and most of the run group was parked on the grass.

The pace car did a U turn-found the track surface and we crawled back to the pits. Everybody exited and were sorta like "WTF" was that goofball doing.

Get this, we were all told that since we turned a wheel we couldn't get our money back but we would get a partial credit towards the next event......that was the last time I ran with that organization!

[EV]

If there's time to coordinate this, then there's time to toss a BFA...putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous.

GA
Playing on both sides, I would like to comment on this.

Working Emergency Services, we have had instances where we needed to block a large part or the entire track to clean up a mess. We have directed cars under a safety car through the pit lane, and through a cut over road so speed things along, there is nothing wrong with doing this.

Regarding your comment "putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous." Are you suggesting that all course clean up require a BFA (ala Watkins Glen)? At Summit Point, we do hot pulls, which of course require us to be on track. Dangerous maybe, but not pointless, many will disagree with that. If I can trust a driver to not hit me when I am doing a hot pull, I hope I can trust him to avoid me pointing him through the PITS behind the safety car during a FCY

As a driver, I would rather be doing laps under FCYthan get a BFA. At least under FCY, I am moving and not just sitting there cooking in a hot race car.

[Greg Amy]

Regarding your comment "putting workers on the track that way is pointless and dangerous." Are you suggesting that all course clean up require a BFA (ala Watkins Glen)?
Of course not. The original poster did not clarify that this was a procedure the Chief Steward was using to divert traffic flow through the pit lane to bypass an incident on the front straight, as Dave and a PM'er clarified. What that implied to me in subsequent replies was that corner workers are being used to block the track in lieu of a BFA to get cars into the pit lane and stopped.

As I noted to the PM'er:


I agree that drivers should (usually do) maintain situational awareness [and watch the track for corner worker directives for traffic flow], but I counter that anything that is a regional or an expected deviation from standard practice should be documented in advance. It's one thing to teach your local guys in their schools about what you do, but all regs and supps should be written with the expectation that some guy with a ink-fresh NASA license/Novice Permit is going to enter your event.

But let's place the debate in perspective of the original poster: it's one thing to maintain situational awareness behind the pace car, follow the directions of furiously waving workers on the track pointing you into pit lane, and following the pace car through the pits; yet it's a wholly different situation where the track is visually clear of debris and workers, is double-yellow all around, and the pace car simply pulls into pit lane with the lights still on and without its driver and/or observer making any hand signals. In the former situation I know I'd follow the pace car; in the latter situation I simply would not (and neither would, I suspect, any other experienced driver).

The Stewards tried to trick the students in the school without any supporting regulation or advance notice [nor with any common-sense reason for following the pace car into pit lane]; in my opinion they were wrong. And in the process they've sown the seeds of doubt, and potentially dangerous confusion for those drivers and for anyone else in the future.GA

[spawpoet]

The Stewards tried to trick the students in the school without any supporting regulation or advance notice [nor with any common-sense reason for following the pace car into pit lane]; in my opinion they were wrong. And in the process they've sown the seeds of doubt, and potentially dangerous confusion for those drivers and for anyone else in the future.

GA

Greg, that's the whole reason I brought the issue up. Should this be in the GCR?? Does the SCCA (us) want us to follow the safety car at all times when it's lights are on or not??

[Racerlinn]

Working Emergency Services, we have had instances where we needed to block a large part or the entire track to clean up a mess. We have directed cars under a safety car through the pit lane, and through a cut over road so speed things along, there is nothing wrong with doing this.

DING! We have a winner here with Bill I think. If you expect me to follow a pace car with lights on off the racing surface, there had better be a corner worker there giving me a point - and I will give him/her a happy wave and thank you. I've been on the racing surface as a worker and done this myself. Now I know there is the issue of a straggler car running around at a greater speed than the field under yellow trying to catch up (probably the SOB that caused the whole shunt to begin with :) ), but the worker net obviously will be aware that they are re-routing traffic, so radio calls from upstream corners for fast movers would be obvious and expected. Much the same way corners call in the leaders to a checker flag or last car on course after a checker.

On edit - "surprising" a bunch of novices with this at a school with no pre-instruction is bullshit.

[raffaelli]

The first three guys posting here taught me well......

I would have stayed out since no standing black.

[JohnW8]

Slightly off topic but at the Nashville SARRC last year the entire wings and things group was bunching up behind the pace car and when he shut off the lights and headed down pit lane the entire field followed. Green flag was waving and everycar drove down pit lane.

[Mazmarc63]

Spoke to Mr Langlotz earlier. He likes(ed) this topic enough to pass it along to the people that could make a change. His feeling is to follow the pace car if the lights are on and agrees that there is an opportunity for disagreement (interpertation) based on the lack of wording about this in the GCR. He also reminded me that the pace car (driver) is under the direction of the Stewards and that *forgetting to turn the lights off* would be extremely rare. I cannot recall, in 16 years of racing having ever seen this happen.

Having said that, here is a synopsis, in part, of what has led to this topic. The names have been changed to protect the guilty.

May 2009, Daytona ECR. We always have two pace laps. One around the track, one through pit lane at 40 mph to check speed. IM on the pole, Graffy on the outside, ME (Marc Dana) 3rd. Off the grid directly on to the front stretch. Pace car starts moving, lights on. (I seem to remember that we were told the pace laps would be without the infield to save a few minutes, something that has been done before...I could be mistaken though) Pace car begins to bend down into road course T1, IM continues on the front stretch. I go back and forth in my head, pace car, IM, pace car, IM. I decide in like 0.3 seconds to follow IM. So does the rest of the field. IM paces us properly around the oval, the pace car(lights still on) picks us up at pit in and leads us on the second pace lap.

(Lights off) on the pace car, green flag, IM gets blacked flagged, wins anyway.

Next day, KK on the pole. Gets a reminder from the pace car driver to follow him. We(I'm way back for this race) start the first pace lap, all good. Pace car (lights on) heads down pit lane for the second lap, KK stays on the track. Pack follows. Pace car speeds down pit lane and collects us at NASCAR pit out. Paces us the rest of the lap. Green flag. KK gets black flagged. Doesn't win. Becomes famous a year later for his *problem* at the start of a street race. Wins anyway.:D

Daytona drivers school, 2010. Three groups. Deep into the weekend, first group has a full course caution. Field is collected behind the pace car (lights on) and led around. Pace car turns the lights off and enters pit lane. Pack continues around, takes the green flag and resumes racing. Next group (the one Chris is in), same scenario with the exception of the pace car NOT turning off the lights and enters pit lane. Group continues around under full course yellow and eventually BFA. Same scenerio for third group with the same result.

Now you know the rest of the story.

[JLawton]

It's all about communication (duh!) EVERYONE needs to understand what's going on and be clear about this. This obviously was not made clear before hand. SHould have been a red flag or black flag. It "almost" sounds like people were lazy in not wanting to reset the field when everyone came in and useing the reasoning of getting cars back out quickly...........sounds like that didn't work out either.......

[CFRRaceBoard]

I am the CFR pace car driver and have been for the past 15+ years. Let me take a few minutes to post CFR's reason behind this.

First off, I am under direct control of the Chief Steward and or his operaters. This issue is a pet peeve of one of our more well known stewards and his favorite saying is: "I don't care if the pace care pulls into the paddock and up to a coke machine. If his lights are on, you better follow him"
That is a direct quote he gave to a national driver at Sebring during one of our national events when that driver did not follow me thru the old hairpin to avoid an incident in the safety pin.

Now...........CFR has the luxury at it's 2 tracks where we have some options of alternate routes to possibly avoid an incident area to help expedite cleanup. This allows safety crews the luxury of cleaning up without having to watch their backs for the oncoming traffic. This is the purpose of the safety car, to control the field in an emergency. You, as drivers, don't have any idea of what the track conditions may be like ahead of you, which is why you should follow the SAFETY car. The lights are the only way for us (race control) to communicate with you.

OUR THEORY..... THE QUICKER THE CLEANUP, THE QUICKER WE RETURN TO GREEN FLAG RACING

When the leader doesn't follow, the rest of the pack doesn't either. Therefore, it takes longer to clean up the incident and the longer you ride around behind a pace car, or even worse, sit on pit lane for a BFA and probably have to be regridded.

As for pit lane, on both of our tracks, pit lane has been used for an alternate route to avoid incident areas. It is also used for the start of enduros, the purpose of which has been explained in the driver meetings before hand, yet you see the results. Need I say more?

As for the GCR. You all are correct. The GCR is very vague when it comes to anything about the use of pace/safety cars. I sent a request to the CRB several years ago requesting a clarification on this matter citing the same reasons I have posted here and explaining it is in the reason of safety and safety alone. I received the usual response...................... It is adequate as written, thank you for your input. (Not exact wording, but I'm sure you know what I mean)

Due to some of the incidents that I have encountered over the past several months, I have had some concern and discussed with the Asst. Race Board chairman the possibility of putting into our supps as well as speaking at the drivers meeting (which I did this past weekend).

So I guess as far as CFR goes expect to see it in the supps. (we know how you all read them so well).

Maybe Robin can be of more assistance with the CRB on this issue as I had no help at the time I presented it to the CRB.

Jack Ragaglia
Central Florida Region
Pace Car Chief

[StephenB]

First off, I am under direct control of the Chief Steward and or his operaters. This issue is a pet peeve of one of our more well known stewards and his favorite saying is: "I don't care if the pace care pulls into the paddock and up to a coke machine. If his lights are on, you better follow him"
That is a direct quote he gave to a national driver at Sebring during one of our national events when that driver did not follow me thru the old hairpin to avoid an incident in the safety pin.

Well at least we now know the problem.... pet peeves should never create a policy... I have a saying for people like that as well. : )

In NER we use an alternate process for starts only and it is clearly spelled out in the supps.

I think the current policy should remain and if you have an exception to the norm based on a tracks unique opportunity then it should simply be clearly explained
in the supps.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

What situation would cause the pace car to 'lead' the group into the pits without the corner workers being able to put up a black flag?

Unless it's spelled out in the supps that the PC is the end-all be-all, I will stick with the flaggers. The GCR tells me when I have to leave the track...and it's a black flag...usually followed by a double yellow, sometimes a red.

Supps are king.

[Z3_GoCar]

RA is hardly the only track where this can happen. Off the top of my head: Watkins Glen, Pocono (clockwise), Thunderbolt, Lightning, Summit Point, Mosport, Beaverun, Nelson Ledges, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Firebird, Phoenix, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Portland, Pacific Raceway. Its harder to think of places that it couldn't apply.....

Dave

Add Buttonwillow Counter-clockwise direction to that list. Drop a wheel on the track out to the front straight and the car shoots into the pit wall. When I rolled my car, guess what Buttonwillow counter-clockwise. Since I was in the braking zone of a fast and narrow turn, the session was BFA'ed, then restarted. I wached the green drop for a second time. Then two laps latter, the guy in a Koni 996 GT car, who pitted next to me, dopped a wheel, and parked it on the pit wall, which then caused a SP car to pile on, second BFA for the same 30 minute race.

We have a codified culture for F&C for a reason, so that a driver from a different region won't encounter a local wrinkle in how information is communicated to the driver. When I display a black flag from my turn station, I expect you as a driver to know exactly what that means. Now I as a driver, can and will read the supps when I race out of my region, any responsibility driver would do the same, but still may miss something. Following a pace car into the pits with its lights on and no black/red flag, it's not in the GCR or the Supps? Sounds like a recipe for something really bad.

[joeg]

Did anyone clarify whether the "Follow the Pace Car Lights Under All Circumstances" was in the school's supps?

If not, I agree that this is complete BS.

[spawpoet]

Did anyone clarify whether the "Follow the Pace Car Lights Under All Circumstances" was in the school's supps?

If not, I agree that this is complete BS.


It was not in the supps.

[joeg]

Then it is BS.

I kind of think that people who implement this stuff perhaps are swayed by what they see in a pro race--where everyone (and all drivers) are on the radio and told what to do.

That ain't club racin!

[LMcB]

Corner workers communicate with drivers using flags. AFAIK, there is no way to correctly send a field behind a safety car into pit lane, continuing through pit out back onto the course, without stopping and probably re-gridding. (Also, BTW, the clock will stop and the race time won't get eaten up by FCY laps.) If the situation warrants the field following the pace car into pit lane, then a BFA should be shown. It is silly to think that corner workers can direct the field into pit lane. What kind of hand signal would communicate that to the drivers? For instance, how would flaggers at Station 11 at Lime Rock (which is on driver's left just after the bridge) direct the field to go into pit lane on driver's right? We can signal drivers to keep right or keep left, or to slow down, but not send them into the pits. We do not have the authority to direct cars off the racing surface, other than showing a BF at the direction of Race Control. It is not the function of the pace car to communicate with the drivers, that is done with flags. If there is track blockage then a BFA or a red flag is the appropriate flag to show, depending on where the blockage is. Neither flag REQUIRES a FCY to also be shown. These flags communicate clearly to all drivers exactly what to do. Having corner workers try to direct traffic into the pits is confusing, inappropriate and potentially dangerous.

At the Runoffs at Heartland Park a few years ago there was a big kerfuffle at the start of the SRF race, with about 75-80% track blockage. FCY was shown immediately but no BFA. Race Control was busy telling us to direct the field into pit lane (which is completely impossible at HPT, we were flabbergasted). We tried to ask for a BFA but Race Control had the radio so tied up we couldn't get a word in edgewise. Result: a big mess. Lesson: the stewards, the race control operator, the flaggers and the drivers all need to know how to correctly send the field into the pits. There was a lot of discussion about this issue for a long time after that. Bottom line: FLAGS RULE!

(This is a great thread, glad it is being discussed.)

[erlrich]

Leigh - I agree with you for the most part, but I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. Keep in mind also, this discussion is about cars following a pace car, not cars alone on a track under FCY. In the situation you described at the runoffs, were the cars already behind the pace car? Or at Lime Rock - if the distance from the last flag station to pit in is too great, is there a reason a pit marshall couldn't come out and direct traffic?

[LMcB]

...I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. ...is there a reason a pit marshall couldn't come out and direct traffic?

Just as there is nothing in the GCR about cars having to follow the pace car into the pits when the lights are on, there is nothing in the GCR about flaggers having the authority to direct cars off the racing surface into the pits other than with a black flag. Since a black flag communicates unequivocally that racing has stopped and all drivers shall proceed into the pits, what would be the advantage of NOT showing it, instead having a corner worker come trackside and try to communicate (equivocally at best, dangerously at worst) that drivers should leave the course and proceed into the pits? That is what flags are for!

I am not a pit marshall (different from a corner worker), but I don't believe any pit marshall would ever come trackside to direct traffic into the pits. What advantage would this have over showing a BFA?

I realize this discussion is about a field under the control of the safety car. My point is the same as that which has been made by many others above, which is that if you want the field to go into the pits you have to show them the flag which says "go into the pits". Anything else, such as assuming they should follow the pace car into the pits or having a corner worker flail their arms trying to communicate that to the drivers, is inappropriate and confusing (and not in the GCR). The directive to do that would come to the corner workers from race control anyway, so why on earth would you choose to do that rather than show a black flag?

Just sayin'...

[spawpoet]

Just to be clear, as the rule is written now, if the pace car (with its lights on) takes the collected field via an alternate configuration from the standard track (or the pits) for the purpose of avoiding a cleanup, and you stay on the official track, and improve your position you are in the right per the rules. Correct? I see why a bfa is what you want to control the field and bring them into the pits, but if there is any situation where race control would want us to follow the safety car off the regular race surface, to avoid an incident anywhere, there has to be a rule mandating us to do so.

[erlrich]

Since a black flag communicates unequivocally that racing has stopped and all drivers shall proceed into the pits, what would be the advantage of NOT showing it, instead having a corner worker come trackside and try to communicate (equivocally at best, dangerously at worst) that drivers should leave the course and proceed into the pits? That is what flags are for!
As has been noted before, a BFA requires that the cars come in and stop, and be re-gridded prior to returning to the track. As I said in my first post, I would think that under MOST circumstances a BFA would be preferable, but I can also envision situations where it would be desirable to keep the field moving.


I am not a pit marshall (different from a corner worker), but I don't believe any pit marshall would ever come trackside to direct traffic into the pits.
Having worked both specialties on numerous occasions (hold regional F&C, divisional Grid/Pit licenses in addition to national comp), I have no doubt that most pit marshalls would help direct traffic if asked to do so. I've gone out track-side from pit-out on two different occasions at Summit to check on/assist drivers who had pulled off, and I've seen others do the same. I've also gone out (and across a couple of times) trackside on a hot track from a corner to do the same. I wouldn't hesitate for a second (or feel unsafe about it) to go out and direct cars that were under the control of the pace car.


I realize this discussion is about a field under the control of the safety car. My point is the same as that which has been made by many others above, which is that if you want the field to go into the pits you have to show them the flag which says "go into the pits". Anything else, such as assuming they should follow the pace car into the pits or having a corner worker flail their arms trying to communicate that to the drivers, is inappropriate and confusing (and not in the GCR). The directive to do that would come to the corner workers from race control anyway, so why on earth would you choose to do that rather than show a black flag?

Just sayin'...
See above re the BFA v. driving through the pits - except to reiterate that the BFA does not just say "go into the pits", it says "go into the pits, stop, and wait to be re-gridded". As far as it not being in the GCR, I would venture to say we could probably come up with a few dozen situations that are not specifically covered in the GCR without breaking a sweat. Sometimes you have to improvise.

My whole original point was not that following the pace through the pits is acceptable as SOP; just that if the situation arises where it is deemed necessary there are better ways to do it than just leaving the lights on.

Just sayin'

[jjjanos]

Why run the field through the pits and not black flag the race? Easy... you've got a situation where you don't want the field proceeding through the incident this lap but it does not justify stopping the event.

Stopping a race throws the entire schedule behind by at least 30 minutes and there are times when doing that is not justified - running out of day light, getting too close to a track imposed end of day requirement, trying to beat a weather front.


It is not the function of the pace car to communicate with the drivers, that is done with flags.
6.3.2. "No car shall pass the safety car unless directed to do so by an official in the safety car. ... The safety car shall maintain the established pace and exit the course, lights out, prior to the restart."

Pace car communicates via hand signals and the lights.

6.3.2 is very clear about the obligations of the field in terms of following the pace car

"The field shall follow the safety car..."
If the pace car keeps its lights on and heads off to McDonald's, the field is suppose to follow...

As for the implementation of this in a racing situation... what is the steward with the pet peeve going to do when the pace car forgets to turn off the lights, some cars follow, some cars don't and the green gets thrown?

Chances are, the poor SOB who followed the pace car is going to be SOL.

And that's why the Great, All-powerful, All-knowing CRB won't clarify the rules... if they say the green cannot be thrown when the pace car has it's lights on, then they need to specify what happens if the green DOES get thrown in such a situation.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Leigh - I agree with you for the most part, but I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. Keep in mind also, this discussion is about cars following a pace car, not cars alone on a track under FCY.

Ya, it's called a BLACK FLAG ALL.

I still am baffled at how the PC can be out and the flagging stations not be up to speed. First it would be a FCY, then the PC picks up the leader, then a BFA comes out and the PC leads them in. Without a BF, I am not coming in.

[Andy Bettencourt]

As has been noted before, a BFA requires that the cars come in and stop, and be re-gridded prior to returning to the track. As I said in my first post, I would think that under MOST circumstances a BFA would be preferable, but I can also envision situations where it would be desirable to keep the field moving.




Then the PC runs through the pits and grid workers are in grid signaling drivers to continue on and follow the PC.

[GKR_17]

May 2009, Daytona ECR. We always have two pace laps. One around the track, one through pit lane at 40 mph to check speed. IM on the pole, Graffy on the outside, ME (Marc Dana) 3rd. Off the grid directly on to the front stretch. Pace car starts moving, lights on. (I seem to remember that we were told the pace laps would be without the infield to save a few minutes, something that has been done before...I could be mistaken though) Pace car begins to bend down into road course T1, IM continues on the front stretch. I go back and forth in my head, pace car, IM, pace car, IM. I decide in like 0.3 seconds to follow IM. So does the rest of the field. IM paces us properly around the oval, the pace car(lights still on) picks us up at pit in and leads us on the second pace lap.

(Lights off) on the pace car, green flag, IM gets blacked flagged, wins anyway.



Being on the outside, and trying to follow the pacecar, I very nearly met IM's passenger door on that one.

Another example (a bit more obvious)- about a decade ago we had a crash during an ECR at Roebling that completely blocked the track around turn 4. As I recall, for two laps of the cleanup, the pacecar led the field through the grass around the mess.

Grafton

[StephenB]

Being on the outside, and trying to follow the pacecar, I very nearly met IM's passenger door on that one.

Another example (a bit more obvious)- about a decade ago we had a crash during an ECR at Roebling that completely blocked the track around turn 4. As I recall, for two laps of the cleanup, the pacecar led the field through the grass around the mess.

Grafton

If the track is blocked its a red flag. If all cars are beyond the wreck are under the control of the pace car and the pacecar has to drive off the track ( pits, grass, ect) then it should be a BFA. Poor Grafton above almost crashed on his second lap of a full course double yellow! If it was a BFA he would never of had that close call. And personally I don't think it should be required that we take our racecars off roadng in the grass 1 lap let alone 2 in a row!

Does anyone know what tracks are in CFR and what tracks this stewerd "stews" at?

Stephen

[wally2]

This is all about detours through the pits right? I don't understand why this solution would be helpful. Taking Mid-Ohio as an example, if an incident were to occur on the front straight and block the track so bad that a detour through pit lane is necessary, race control would have to call for the safety car, which would exit at pit out and wait to gather up the field. But before the field can get to the safety car they have to drive through the incident first! How does this pit lane maneuver help anything?

A better and more familiar solution would seem to be to throw an immediate red flag, then do BFA and everyone will enter the pits.

[lateapex911]

Because, Wally, the incident might not actually block the track, but the flatbed/rollback and the workers trying to sweep, etc might.

It DOES make a lot of sense to keep car circulating during a cleanup. But yea, it's not obvious to follow the pace car places that are unusual. As a leader I watched the pace car understeer right off the wet track. I didn't follow him. (I did snicker a bunch). His lights were on.

Now, if he drove into the pits at Lime Rock, and I knew there was a big mess on the front straight, (which I would because I can see) yea, I'd follow him. It would be visible to me that the track was probably blocked. What about the stragglers? Well, I'd imagine the SOP would be that the pace car must have the entire field gathered, and race control must relay that info from the flaggers to the driver, BEFORE he leads the ducklings down the alternative route.

However, as it stands now, there needs to be a clear and definitive statement either in the GCR (best, it becomes a nationally followed rule) or, alternatively, item ONE, in BOLD, in the supps.

[GKR_17]

Poor Grafton above almost crashed on his second lap of a full course double yellow! If it was a BFA he would never of had that close call. And personally I don't think it should be required that we take our racecars off roadng in the grass 1 lap let alone 2 in a row!


That's not quite right. At the Daytona event, the pacecar led the entire field through the pits (with no issue), and then proceeded to turn left at turn one to stay on the normal racing surface. The pole sitter for whatever reason, did not follow the pacecar and stayed on the NASCAR banking (skipping the infield as is often done on rovals). BFA does not apply there.

As for off-roading, sure it's not a good situation, but at many southeast tracks the surface just off the track is at least as good as the paddock...

[StephenB]

Gotchya. That is definitely a different situation. I would have followed the pace car if you were racing utilizing the infield and or it didn't list anything different in the supps

[jumbojimbo]

Still seems like IF you have a track where it makes sense to do this then it should be in the supps. Why keep it secret if you are planning on possibly using it? Just describe it. If people don't read the supps, then you can complain.

All these other examples where you can come up with a bizzare upside down 3 wheeled car 2/3 of the way off the surface with some gravel next to it are completely unconvicing. If it is not in the plan before the race and understood by everyone then you're just introducing unnecessary risk. We're driving big metal things at high speed, it's dangerous enough when we all know what we are expecting.

Thinking on your feet and being innovative have no place in this kind of situation. Unless you are innovating to REDUCE risk you are making a mistake.

[JohnRW]

Once the field ("the field", not "the field under control of the Safety Car", just "the field") has completed lap under FCY, there is no need to "re-grid", as the order of the "last scored lap" is exactly how they will arrive in Pit Lane under a BFA. If a Safety Car is dispatched, there are relatively few circumstances where the field hasn't completed a full lap under FCY by the time the Safety Car would make it back to Pit Lane (illuminated or not) and crosses S/F. No re-grid necessary (ibid).

Re: "well-known steward" - There is an old saying along the lines of "When all else fails, fame can also be achieved by spectacular failure." Just sayin.

If you want cars to always follow the Safety Car w/lights on, PUT IT IN THE SUPPS.

[jjjanos]

Once the field ("the field", not "the field under control of the Safety Car", just "the field") has completed lap under FCY, there is no need to "re-grid", as the order of the "last scored lap" is exactly how they will arrive in Pit Lane under a BFA. If a Safety Car is dispatched, there are relatively few circumstances where the field hasn't completed a full lap under FCY by the time the Safety Car would make it back to Pit Lane (illuminated or not) and crosses S/F. No re-grid necessary (ibid).

The steward has 4 options:

1. Original grid
2. Running order on last lap scored
3. Restart from a scoring tape (which implies the last lap scored before the FCY was declared) and would be running order
4. Restart from a lap chart (which implies the last lap scored before the FCY was declared) and would not be running order.

Only one of those options does not require regridding the cars.

[JohnRW]

The steward has 4 options:

1. Original grid
2. Running order on last lap scored
3. Restart from a scoring tape (which implies the last lap scored before the FCY was declared) and would be running order
4. Restart from a lap chart (which implies the last lap scored before the FCY was declared) and would not be running order.

Only one of those options does not require regridding the cars.

FYI, you are reading from a GCR edition earlier than 2010.

Maybe I'm reading your post incorrectly, but it looks like you're stating that laps under FCY are not "scored" laps.

Laps under FCY are "scored" laps, unless Supps say otherwise. If the field has turned an entire lap under FCY and then the BF comes out, the last "scored" lap is the last lap under FCY before the BF.

[jjjanos]

FYI, you are reading from a GCR edition earlier than 2010.

You are correct. I had an out-of-date GCR.

The only options are regrid to original order or single file in the order on the last completely scored lap.

[MIKEL]

Another issue with not using the flaggs is the back markers if they are trying to catch up and are not in sight of the pace car they could easily assume some cars are just pitting if they see the corner station showing yellow then they can only assume to continue they have never seen the pace car going in lights or no there is where the main problem arrises with that system.
No pace car in sight a full corse yellow pit and possible miss restart and loose of position if not needed to pit or continue under caution???? You would normally follow the flag and continue YES??

[wally2]

FWIW, I posed the question to a steward at the GLDiv driver school this weekend. His quick answer was that unless there was a BFA, racers were to remain on the track.