Track Photography....WTF...#@%@%#!!!!!!

[gpeluso]

I just don't get it. I attended the Watkins Glen Fun ONE. I do not remember signing up and wanting photos taken.... I have received an innvoice for $91. I have left a message that I did not ask for photos. Years and years ago I thought track photos were neat but now I just worry about have enough money to race. Has anyone else received anything similiar?

Greg:shrug:

[Seabee]

Either send them back or do nothing. He will take you 'off the list' if you don't send them back.

I don't like this sort of business tactic myself. BTW, I am off the list.

[raffaelli]

Yeah, I had a bill for a while. Eventually they went away. Roz I think the guys name was.

[gpeluso]

Roz is the name......why is this allowed and why do we need to put up with it? $91.... ????? I don't get it....... 10 little pictures sent to me that I didn't ask for and I have to take the time to send something back that I did NOT ask for. This guy must be tight with someone in the SCCA....never had this tactic at a NASA event.... and I run more SCCA stuff.

Greg:cavallo::cavallo:

[jumbojimbo]

You don't have to send anything back. You don't have to do anything. Unsolicited merch is yours to keep. Keep the pictures, throw them away, whatever.

Oh, and this comes up every year.

[lateapex911]

LOL, recently I was at Summit Point, and got super lucky and set a track record, and I thought it would be neat to have a picture from the weekend. So I sniffed around, and found the photog that was there shooting, and called him. He said he'd look it up and call me back. When he did, he told me I was on his blacklist. He said he shot me at some race in 98 I think, and I never paid for the pictures he sent. I told him I'd never heard of him, can't remember ever requesting pictures and certainly never saw any. He said he has more faith in the US Postal System and is sure I got them and didn't pay. He confirmed he sends them unsolicited with a bill.

I told him I thought that was a crappy way to do business, and that he had no business forcing me to pay, OR return his stuff, on MY dime. He told me I was "very unusual, not like most racers who are thrilled to get pictures of their car". And if I sent him the $50 or whatever, he'd start shooting me again.

I suggested he'd be waiting a loooong time until I supported such a rip off system even IF he had the best shot of my car ever, and that he should use a web based system. He said it's too much work, and those that do it that way don't make as much money.

Well, yea, but they're not extortionists either, LOL.

After I got off the phone I thought I had been too nice.

[Eagle7]

He's sent me two or three different sets of pictures over the years. I've never responded, and continue to get bills.

[gran racing]

I've received the summit pictures in the past too and just put them aside somewhere. This year was pretty frustrating. Normally race pics that have been sent to me are pretty boring but this time I really liked them. Darn it. LOL Since I did and wanted one blown up, I paid for two of them and returned most of the others.

[gpeluso]

WHY IS THIS GUY ALLOWED TO DO THIS? HE IS GETTING HIS INFO FROM THE CLUB! THE REASON I CAN TELL IS THAT ON MY CAR INFO IS THE OTHER RACE NUMBERS I SELECTED. HOW DOES HE GET OUR ADDRESSES?
THESE BUSINESS PRACTICES SHOULD NOT EXIST DURING A CLUB EVENT...... WE PAY ENOUGH MONEY!!!!!!

Greg

[mbuskuhl]

Roz was recently discussed on the Prod forums, the USPS says it is illegal to send unsolicited merchandise with demand for payment. Contact your nearest postal inspector, enough complaints and a chat from an inspector will probably get it stopped at all tracks for everyone.

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11057

Direct from USPS https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/investigations/MailFraud/fraudschemes/othertypes/UnsolicitedFraud.aspx

[Greg Amy]

Greg, this has been going on for decades. DECADES. I used to get these in the mid-80's when I raced. Sometimes I'd drop the stamp to send them back to stay on their good graces, sometimes I'd simply ignore them. Your prerogative, no need to get yourself upset over it.

The *only* person that has ever taken the time to ASK me in advance if I want photos is Gordon Jolley, at Road Atlanta. Gordon has always taken the time to find me on the grid, ask me if I want photos, and then sent me proofs afterward. If Gordon asks me, I'll take the time to return them if I don't want them. Everyone else...so solly. - GA

On edit: A lot of times I like the photos that Roz takes, but his techniques are a lot like spam: as long as someone keeps buying them, he'll keep doing it...

[joeg]

I buy what I want...there is no problem here.

It is unsolicited and there is no obligation on your part to buy any or send them back.

[Bill Miller]

As has been stated, Roz has been doing this for years. The other guy I would get pics from was Ken Brown. The general take on these guys is that they're scum and use seedy business practices. What's even worse w/ Roz, is that not only does he send you unsolicited pictures w/ a bill, he also sends you unsolicited literature for his wife's investment counseling business.

[NORRIS]

This is funny (Sort of)

Who has the record for "owing" Roz money for the longest time?

I have "owed" him money since 1990!

I was running my E30 325 BMW in International Sedan at Lime Rock. I got pictures and a bill after that. This guys been pulling this stunt for a while.

Dennis Baer shoots at Calclub races. He shows me the pics at the next race and asks me "if you want all the pictures it's $2.00 each" I always buy all the pics. Some I keep some I don't.

[lateapex911]

I buy what I want...there is no problem here.

It is unsolicited and there is no obligation on your part to buy any or send them back.

Except I got bill after bill from Roz...I have a two family, and my mail often lands in places where I don't get it. So I get bills for something I never saw. I shouldn't have to write a letter, pick up the phone or ANYthing unless I'm asking to get involved.

And these days, the internet way is SO much easier and friendlier. Send me an email . Whatever, but don't send me bills with interest for a year.

[Greg Amy]

...but don't send me bills with interest for a year.
If he wants to drop $0.44 each month (plus cost of envelope, paper, and toner) to give you something to start the wood stove with, let 'em.

:shrug:

[pfcs]

Over the years I got a lot of nice pictures from Roz for free. Some of the real old ones (1985ish) had a big black PROOF on them that wiped off. I'm still working through the guilt I feel for not paying, but I have 30 or so nice pics I otherwise would never have gotten. What's the problem?? Maybe I should send him a bill for the therapy?

[callard]

Guys, it's not as bad as all that. Roz has been one of only three photographers who continuously comes to most races. He offers a a yearly package deal in advance and if you subscribe, you get tons of photos of your car from the event - some practice - some race. About the cost of one flat-spotted tire which isn't too shabby for a season's worth of pictures.
One of the things I like about his shots are that he usually stands at the same spots throughout the weekend and has nice cornering shots. If you've made suspension adjustments, you get photographic evidence of the effects. If you continuously screw up a turn, you've got the telltale. Bonus after-the-fact test and tuning memento.
Chuck

[MMiskoe]

I am actually pretty impressed to see Roz continue this. After all, I have never met anyone who either bought his stuff or returned it which would eventually mean the only people who aren't on his black list are people who have just started racing. I've bitched to SCCA power's that be in the NE but never gotten a response.


I just email the guy and tell him to let me know when he's coming by and I will be sure to leave the pictures on the porch, he can pick them up.

[lawtonglenn]

...I have never met anyone who either bought his stuff or returned it...


sometimes I buy one or two, sometimes I return them all

sheesh, you guys, take a chill pill

if you don't get back to him, with prints or dollars,
he will never send you more

[Jeremy Billiel]

I remember the first time Roz did this I had a lengthy email conversation with him about these poor practices. Just to be clear SCCA has nothing to do with these photographers. They pay to come into the events and they take pictures. Nothing the SCCA did wrong, but to get back on track ROZ's approach is poor at best.

[Super Swift]

Roz is a twit.

3 Years ago I made the mistake of buying 2 and shipping the rest back.
2 years ago he sent 15 picks only 3 were of my car in a practice session the rest were of another red miata... I was insulted, it was one of the only times I have ever been pole in SM so I really wanted a cool pic, so I sent him a bill for my postage mailing the 15 back. He sent me a 3 cent stamp. I think I got black listed after that as I haven't received anything else. So sad. :rolleyes: (Oh yeah I wrote on all the photos NOT MY CAR or Practice Session.)

My Dad still gets a bill every now and then for some picks he just trashed 3 or 4 years ago.

Benjamin Robertson

[dj10]

Greg, take another damn pill. This guy gets cranky when he's off his meds! :~)

[gpeluso]

bills coming in the mail and my wife thinks I'm making stuff up....... Dan you are right..... I am cranky about drivng to CMP last weekend and getting 5 in. of snow....

[RedMisted]

I was subjected to the same bullshit from Roz in 2008. When I went to the Glen for the '09 Fun One, I took the pictures to the track, fully expecting a half-mad man to corner me and demand them back. He never showed. And after a year of incessant billing, he finally stopped the mailings.

Screw Roz, I don't need his pictures. I've got a friend who lives near WGI that takes motorsports pics at tracks all over the eastern US. He does it for his own fun, usually at pro events. I'll just ask him to take some shots of me at the Glen...

[dpc]

Gee, I remember the good old days of getting the pic at the race track, There were pics of most cars and you got to take the pic home the same weekend. On track dark room(big red trailer). We would print the pic right at the track. ah ,the good old days.

[RacerBill]

IMHO, with the digital revolution, the best marketing plan is to post the pictures to a website (with 'proof' watermarked on them), and offer them to participants, announcing that they are available on some of the forums like this one. Yeah, you have to look at a lot of pictures to find your car, but it brings back some great (maybe) memories from the event, you only get what you really want, and the customers don't feel harassed!

Jeff Loewe from Cincinnati does a great job at Mid-Ohio.

[StephF]

In this day and age, that is an outdated method he's using.
Far better to have a site up with the proofs listed and allow people to buy them.
Of course, the sales will drop quite a bit. When something lands in your mailbox with a bill, a lot of folks will buy them even though they wouldn't have if they had to go through selecting and paying up front.
I haven't really seen him around much lately. And what is too bad about that is he was one of the more consistant ones to show up at a race. There hasn't been anyone else that I am aware of who has been there on such a regular basis.
Let's face it, when something memorable happens, having the picture makes it really sweet.
Case in point, last summer, my husband and I got to take a side by side victory lap at NHMS. And I haven't been able to find even so much a one lousy cell phone pic of it. :(
I can tell you I wouldn't have complained about getting a $91 bill from Roz for those shots.

[OTLimit]

Almost all of the dog events I attend have a photographer with on-site printing, plus the photos are available a day or so later on-line for purchase also, in some cases for downloading directly to your computer, for a very reasonable fee. It works because they takes LOTS of pictures, print none until you purchase, and when you see a price of $6 to $10 each for downloading to use any way we want, most of us think it's a pretty good deal. Most of them (the ones who did good work to begin with) are seeing better revenue streams because they are giving the customer what they want.

We have been burned by Roz and Ken both. Neither got a penny and we kept the prints. Gordon always did a better job anyway.

[jumbojimbo]

...Just to be clear SCCA has nothing to do with these photographers. They pay to come into the events and they take pictures. Nothing the SCCA did wrong...

Who do they pay, the region or the track? And how is he getting my name and address?

Access I don't really care about, but my personal information I do care about.

Does he get my personal info directly from SCCA by getting a list of names and addresses of license holders? I think this is kosher, lots of vendors to it. What is not kosher is SCCA selling my name and address to someone who uses that information illegally.

Also not kosher would be if the region or track is selling my name and address to a vendor. That's a data privacy issue.

I realize this guy needs to make money and honestly he shoots some good shots. But there is a reason this type of solicitation is illegal.

And beside it being illegal, the last thing I need is a "bill" coming in the mail every month for even a bogus racing expense to remind my wife of the real racing expenses. Personally I have no moral qualms about keeping the photos and doing with them as I please. I should be charging him for the grief I get from my wife.

[dj10]

In this day and age, that is an outdated method he's using.


Steph, I agree with you 100%. It's a shame nobody got a side by side photo of you and hubby doing a victory lap together...but you still have the memory.

[Wreckerboy]

Roz must have gone through his dormant accounts recently, as we just started getting bills again for an event in 1998. The last time this happened I took the time to call the guy and he was beyond hostile, with the conversation ending with him threatening to "blacklist" me. Umm, wasn't that the point?

The very next event he took pictures of me and sent a bill anyway. So much for blacklisting, and the images weren't even any good. He has kept on sending bills. The one that came last week got marked like all the others: REFUSED - RETURN TO SENDER. I'm thinking that the post office link above might be better.

[lateapex911]

I should be charging him for the grief I get from my wife.

Too funny. Too true too, LOL.

[lateapex911]

Let's face it, when something memorable happens, having the picture makes it really sweet.
Case in point, last summer, my husband and I got to take a side by side victory lap at NHMS. And I haven't been able to find even so much a one lousy cell phone pic of it. :(
I can tell you I wouldn't have complained about getting a $91 bill from Roz for those shots.

Ah, that's teh other side of the story...I've gotten, in 10+ years of doing this stupid stuff, ONE shot that was actually cool. I used to think, "ooo, this wild thing happened in this race right in FRONT of where that photog always takes his pictures. Can't wait to see the pictures."

Then I'd get the prints in the mail and I'd have to compare them to others to see that the trees were in a different position due to wind, to know they were different than the old shots I already had a thousand of. In other words same old bring 3/4 front shot.

I've done my share of on side photography, so i know it's tough to be in the right place at the right time, but, frankly, I have no interest of yet another shot that looks like it was taken in a studio. And good shots CAN be done. Look at Doug Kozas work.

There's aguy who goes to SCDA events, and has a computer with a monitor playing a slideshow of past events, and after lunch of the morning groups right in the corner of the garage. Want to see your car? Go look up his shots by number. I think he does OK.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The answer is simple:

- Print the prints and mail them - at your own risk. It's the cost of doing business in the dark ages. Include a note that tells everyone what races you will be at and invite them to buy a print that they like in any size or format.

- Don't print the images at the track - and if you REALLY want to sink 100% of your cost into a product you don't know if the potential buyer will even want, at least make the cost worth it. I bet he would sell MORE than double at $10 what he sells at $20.

- Step into the technology era. Walk around with your laptop and show people digital images. Sell them for a nice price and print them later. 1/2 the labor and 1/2 the upfront cost.

[gpeluso]

Only one person gets what I'm talking about our information being given to Roz..... The invoice had my class and numbers I picked for the event.....this had to come from registration info........... Can people get our checking acct # and credit card info too????
Remember our home addresses are coming from somewhere..... PLEASE, in this day and age information of members should not be given out due to fraud and privacy.

Greg

[RedMisted]

Only one person gets what I'm talking about our information being given to Roz..... The invoice had my class and numbers I picked for the event.....this had to come from registration info........... Can people get our checking acct # and credit card info too????
Remember our home addresses are coming from somewhere..... PLEASE, in this day and age information of members should not be given out due to fraud and privacy.

Greg

I hear you. I don't like it either. I wonder if we missed some fine print somewhere when we signed on to go SCCA racing. You know, like signing up for a mag subscription, you're liable to have your name/address/whatever given away. I'd certainly like to know what the hell's going on. I'd assume with the club and its regions always hard-up for cash, they're gonna do some creative stuff to raise the dough. Maybe our ever-helpful BoD can step in and save the day....

[StephF]

Only one person gets what I'm talking about our information being given to Roz..... The invoice had my class and numbers I picked for the event.....this had to come from registration info........... Can people get our checking acct # and credit card info too????
Remember our home addresses are coming from somewhere..... PLEASE, in this day and age information of members should not be given out due to fraud and privacy.

Greg

A wild guess would be an entry list and a membership list.
I seriously doubt that you have to worry about cc# and checking acct# though.
A lot of info about you is out online anyway, so if you are worried about fraud, start by goggling yourself.

[Jeremy Billiel]

A wild guess would be an entry list and a membership list.
I seriously doubt that you have to worry about cc# and checking acct# though.
A lot of info about you is out online anyway, so if you are worried about fraud, start by goggling yourself.

Thats correct SCCA does NOT distribute addresses or anything else. On the registration list though your home town is listed and google is a wonderful tool.

[jumbojimbo]

"Thats correct SCCA does NOT distribute addresses or anything else"

Not true. Any region can buy member address labels directly from the national office. And I assume vendors can also, since I get all these fancy race catalogs. I'm pretty sure Vic Secret didn't sell my name to them.

The point isn't that you can google me and find video of my colonscopy. I think Greg's point is that there was information included in his bill that was not on the entry list or results.
On the other hand, this has been going on for decades. :dead_horse:

[dickita15]

While you are right that regions and other officials can buy lists or labels from national my understanding is that they will not “sell” the information to outsiders. I believe a vendor can buy a mailing but they do not actually get the names, they get the right to mail a piece.
My region has consistently voted not to sell names but that decision would be made on a region by region basis.
I am guessing google too. When you have a name and hometown from the results the rest is pretty easy.

[Matt Rowe]

Any SCCA member can also pull down a list of name and addresses off the website. No reason to even use google.

[lawtonglenn]

...
The point isn't that you can google me and find video of my colonscopy. ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRrPHeFBOEg&feature=related


jk :D

Glenn

[StephF]

ROFLMAO!!!
Ding ding ding ding!
You just won this thread!!!
:happy204:

[Tkczecheredflag]

I happen to like the photos - when it's all said and done all I have are memories, maybe a trophy, an in car video, and some pictures (grateful to say a have lots of all).

It's pretty clear on the envelope what you are getting - If you don't want pictures write "reutrn to sender" on the envelope and put them back in the mailbox - no cost and only a minor inconvenience.

Truth be told my car(s) and me are camera whores - I think I have three photo albums of racing pictures starting with my first pix shot by Team DI Pro ITB Champion-Ken Hubbard, shot in 1995 at LRP in Big Bend lifting "my skirt" on the right rear - it's an awesome shot.

Roz - thanks for the memories keep them coming.

[BruceG]

I have to admit that Roz takes some great pictures! This is one of me in the pits last summer at LRP. He really has an eye for getting the best shots....LOL.:happy204:


http://www.journalscene.com/images/blogs/paulz/lemons/racing.jpg