1988 Porsche 911

[pweishaupt]

I've been looking through the '09 GCR and can't find an IT class for the 1988 porsche 911. Did I miss it? or is there no IT class for '88's?

Thanks,

Pete

[anthony1k]

Unless you back date it to pre-83 specs, ITE is the only class. Join the club!

[924Guy]

LOL, yeah, time to start chasing 'Vettes! ;)

[dave parker]

Pete
Sadly, the SCCA has been scared of the Porsche cars since the late fifties when "the Giant Killer" known as Bruce Jennings to the rest of the world, cleaned everyones clock with a 356 Carrera. Ever since then the club has tended to classify the Porsche cars at a disadvantage.
You would think that this would change somewhat in the modern era with the club looking for all the entry dollars it can get. Too bad, because the 86-89 911's were great cars and are raced in both PCA and the NASA GTS series.

Something to keep in mind though, with the economic downturn the ITE field at DC Region races is looking very small and some wins could be had without breaking the bank.
If you have any questions feel free to ask here or PM me.
cheers
dave parker

[callard]

Spu!

[JeffYoung]

I don't think that is true in IT. Vaughan Scott's 924 is quite competitive in ITB. 944S is very competitive in ITS, if not potentially dominant, and the 944S2 (along with the 968) is one of the cars to have in ITR.

The problem with the late model 911s and IT is stock horsepower. Pretty much anything with more than 240 stock hp is just not going to fit in ITR, which is the "fastest" of the IT classes. That means most 911s are a no go. The ones that fit in ITS and ITR have been classed there.


Pete
Sadly, the SCCA has been scared of the Porsche cars since the late fifties when "the Giant Killer" known as Bruce Jennings to the rest of the world, cleaned everyones clock with a 356 Carrera. Ever since then the club has tended to classify the Porsche cars at a disadvantage.
You would think that this would change somewhat in the modern era with the club looking for all the entry dollars it can get. Too bad, because the 86-89 911's were great cars and are raced in both PCA and the NASA GTS series.

Something to keep in mind though, with the economic downturn the ITE field at DC Region races is looking very small and some wins could be had without breaking the bank.
If you have any questions feel free to ask here or PM me.
cheers
dave parker

[Greg Amy]

Spu!
Not sure what that means, but if it roughly translates into "HOGWASH!" in response to Dave's post, I'll give that a +1.

"[S]cared of the Porsche cars since the late fifties.."??? Methinks you've been reading too many Al Cosentino columns (R.I.P.Al)!!!!

Nope, as Jeff accurately describes, Porsche is simply nothing more than a victim of its own success. When they decide to not be as good as they are/were (revival of the four-cylinder 912, anyone?) then they'll be quickly classified into Improved Touring.

Until then: Spu!

;)

[rx7chris]

SPU is actually something like Street Prepared Under some cc number. It's a catch all class and very few entries normally.

[Z3_GoCar]

Spu!

SPU's for 3.0 liters and under,

over 3.0 liters SPO! :023:

[pweishaupt]

Thanks for all the input. I've already got the 911 so I was hoping to keep using it. I've had it out at Summit Point with PCA and wanted to try IT. I've been an SCCA member for two years and have done nada. So I'd like to try out ITA or ITB, ITC, etc. I'm looking to race with the minimum of mods and/or fuss. Looks like I'll have to find a different car.....

[JLawton]

Guys, I think Greg knows what SPU is................ He was just joking on that one......


Pete, there are a lot of great IT cars out there for short money and will be a LOT less expensive to run than your Porsche. I actually started out my racing with the PCA in a 944. Then went to SCCA with it and got my ass handed to me!!! LOL I have to admit that I got hung up on racing a Porsche and it took me a few years to realize that I can have just as much (or even more) fun for less money and be very competitive. I now race a Saturn (don't laugh!!) and run seconds FASTER at Lime Rock than I did in the Porsche. Good luck!!!

[callard]

My apologies, i was thinking STU and typed SPU.
Many of the local PCA folks in the DC area raced their cars in IT-E at Summit Point. Some with fair success. I don't think the Targa body qualifies anywhere in IT though. I raced a 911 Targa in the '80s but it was in D-Prod and then in GT-3. Dave Coleman and I dominated those classes and I thought that an IT-S 911 might stand a chance. I've learned an expensive lesson.
My IT-S Benz can produce the target process horsepower whereas the 911 was already stretched by the factory and doesn't come close.
Chuck

[Ron Earp]

Isn't the 1988 911 a 3.2L flat six at 217 hp? If so that would fit right in ITR.

If that is correct ask to have the car classed in ITR.

[pweishaupt]

Isn't the 1988 911 a 3.2L flat six at 217 hp? If so that would fit right in ITR.

If that is correct ask to have the car classed in ITR.


Yes.

Who would I ask?

[lateapex911]

go to crbscca.com, and submit a request. I'm betting that car will need to make 222 at the wheels to be in the hunt.

Take 271 and multiply by the ITR factor (I'm drawing a blank, anyone?) and you'll get the weight. I don't think it's brakes warrant an adder in ITR.

I THINK the ITR factor is 10.9, and that yields 2950.

Gotta double check those numbers though.

Now, if you think that 271 at the crank, which converts to 222 at the wheels is not realistic of what that engine can make in IT trim, then supply documentation, or at least clues to follow up on in your request. Dyno sheets, known builders experiences, etc. Otherwise, it'll go in at 25%.

(I don't know my late 80s Carreras that well, but off the top of my head, I think that 271 crank number is a streeeetch. Do some homework if you agree.)

Also, if the car is already a race car, great, but check issues like seam welding and cage attachment points to ensure SCCA legality. If not yet built, run a spreadsheet first, Porsches are expensive builds , esp 911s.

[GKR_17]

217 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 3052

[pweishaupt]

217 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 3052

not really sure what that means.

probably prefer not to race a targa in the long run anyway.

[GKR_17]

not really sure what that means.

3052 (probably round down to 3050) is the weight per the process all but one ITR car went through.

[Andy Bettencourt]

per the process all but one ITR car went through.

You couldn't be MORE wrong.

[benspeed]

a 3.2 Carrara would be a good car for the ITR class - the Targa is less desirable than the hardtop but it'll still be a fine car. Keep us posted if you submit for classification in ITR.

[pweishaupt]

a 3.2 Carrara would be a good car for the ITR class - the Targa is less desirable than the hardtop but it'll still be a fine car. Keep us posted if you submit for classification in ITR.

the more people i talk too, the less inclined i am to try IT with the targa - perhaps move to an mr2, boxster or 944..

[Super Swift]

Jeff is right the 924 is classed well in ITB. But, Mr. Parker’s point that Historically Porsches are classed poorly is also correct. However I do think most of the Improved Touring biases have been corrected.

20 years ago in ITS: 944 (8v) was the heaviest car classed @ 2720lbs (add the current 180lbs driver = 2900lbs) …now a fair ITS car @ 2575lbs…
also back in the day in ITS: 924 (2.0 L) was classed @ 2520lbs (2700lbs w/ driver) …now a great ITB car @ 2495lbs…
In ITA: 914 (1.7L) was classed @ 1900lbs (2080lbs w/ driver) …now a bad ITC car…

Just for prospective here are 3 other cars classed in my old school ITCS… for ITS. Porsche’s weren’t the only one’s getting hosed.
240Z @ 2250 (2430 w/ driver) I bet they could find the parts to run back then…wish they still could:unsure:
RX-7 (12A) @ 2200 (2380 w/ driver) runs so bad in ITA they made IT7 poor guys started in ITS
RX-7 ( 13B ) @ 2500 (2680 w/ driver) This car is still taking names.

Pete… If you want to race IT I would love to see you in ITR. Still the best class in IT despite the bad blood between Andy and myself. (Read the latest fastrack this isn’t the venue for that topic where I got lambasted. :dead_horse: Needless to say I am on Grafton’s side. :D)

Pete… I would also recommend buying a used racecar instead of building one. The deals are out there: cents on the dollar. Pick a class, research the rules, research the cars, and then shop around.

Hope to see you on the track in ITR!



Benjamin Robertson
944 S2 ITR

[Andy Bettencourt]

Still the best class in IT despite the bad blood between Andy and myself. (Read the latest fastrack this isn’t the venue for that topic where I got lambasted. :dead_horse: Needless to say I am on Grafton’s side. :D)

Benjamin Robertson
944 S2 ITR

No bad blood bro. That why I took the time to try and explain the logic behind the correction. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean there is an issue. Your car gets the benefit of a non-standard IT-multiplier too ya know... :)

[924Guy]

What Ben said (though I wasn't aware the 2.0L 924 started in ITS!! I only knew it in ITA at 2600#, but that was only 10 yrs ago)...

Would nearly have been with you guys this year in ITR in another 944 S2. Then I got distracted by bike motors... :D

[Ron Earp]

Just for prospective here are 3 other cars classed in my old school ITCS… for ITS. Porsche’s weren’t the only one’s getting hosed.
240Z @ 2250 (2430 w/ driver) I bet they could find the parts to run back then…wish they still could:unsure:

Not sure I follow you on the 240Z as I don't think they have a weight disadvantage at all.

The current weight for them is 2430 lbs, with driver, and they are extremely competitive in ITS at that weight. They can meet weight with a 200 lbs driver. Same for the 260Z at 2480lbs and 280Z at 2530 lbs, although the weight is a bit more challenging.

[callard]

Okay to keep beating the horse, my 1972 2.4 liter 911E (165 crank HP) was first listed in the PCS at 2200 lbs (plus driver = 2385). By the time I sourced a 1972 VIN chassis and built it, the PCS has bumped the weight 100 lbs - TWICE. New weight with driver 2585 lbs. Several letters to the IT committee protesting the 25% adder for a car that came from the factory with headers did no good. A good IT engine builder should be able to get 205 HP according to them. (The factory is still looking for that engine builder.) The only way I was able to get that HP on the dyno was with much much higher compression, cosworth pistons, high lift cams and bigger valves.
As much as I support the process, the 911 is hurt by it. It would take several independant dyno runs of various other engines to support the fact that the 911E won't produce the 25% HP gains expected. Oh and the engine has to be built by a professional IT engine builder. Not some hack like me who has only screwed together several hundred Porsche motors and logged a few hundred hours on an engine dyno testing and tuning.
Since the 911E has been reviewed by the committee and turned down for a weight reduction, I submitted a request to classify the early 1970s 911S (185 crank HP) back in November. Here it is in February and I've received two notices that the request has been tabled. So much for planning for this coming season. f the CRB wants to classify by displacement, I guess the weight should remain the same.

But I'd be happier if they would just beg Kirk, Andy and Jake to come back and sort it out.

[Super Swift]

Ron,

I was only trying to point out that the first gen RX-7 also started out very bad.

The 240z has always been stupid fast as with the second gen RX-7.

[Super Swift]

That got me thinking... about way back when...

Does anyone remember the days of Nick Craw (club prez) going around the country running his ITS 240z to the tune of "Beat the Boss"?

wow that feels like a long time ago...

[pweishaupt]

Jeff is right the 924 is classed well in ITB. But, Mr. Parker’s point that Historically Porsches are classed poorly is also correct. However I do think most of the Improved Touring biases have been corrected.

20 years ago in ITS: 944 (8v) was the heaviest car classed @ 2720lbs (add the current 180lbs driver = 2900lbs) …now a fair ITS car @ 2575lbs…
also back in the day in ITS: 924 (2.0 L) was classed @ 2520lbs (2700lbs w/ driver) …now a great ITB car @ 2495lbs…
In ITA: 914 (1.7L) was classed @ 1900lbs (2080lbs w/ driver) …now a bad ITC car…

Just for prospective here are 3 other cars classed in my old school ITCS… for ITS. Porsche’s weren’t the only one’s getting hosed.
240Z @ 2250 (2430 w/ driver) I bet they could find the parts to run back then…wish they still could:unsure:
RX-7 (12A) @ 2200 (2380 w/ driver) runs so bad in ITA they made IT7 poor guys started in ITS
RX-7 ( 13B ) @ 2500 (2680 w/ driver) This car is still taking names.

Pete… If you want to race IT I would love to see you in ITR. Still the best class in IT despite the bad blood between Andy and myself. (Read the latest fastrack this isn’t the venue for that topic where I got lambasted. :dead_horse: Needless to say I am on Grafton’s side. :D)

Pete… I would also recommend buying a used racecar instead of building one. The deals are out there: cents on the dollar. Pick a class, research the rules, research the cars, and then shop around.

Hope to see you on the track in ITR!



Benjamin Robertson
944 S2 ITR

thanks for the encouraging words. guess i'll have to sell the targa and pick up an itr prepped 944

[lateapex911]

But I'd be happier if they would just beg Kirk, Andy and Jake to come back and sort it out.

Thanks, but, we left because the CRB is in direct opposition to our "vision" or "direction". It was clear after the last con call that the CRB considered me a thorn in their sides.

[Super Swift]

Pete,

If you really want to race an ITR 944 S2 notice the vin number rule for improved touring... I think but only in the 90% range.... you could get a 951 racecar ie 944 turbo and stuff in an S2 motor... the fastest ITR 944 S2 I know of (Kip's) started life as a 944s.

ITR is a young class so most any car you buy will need "tweaking". Someone else already said something about the cage & seam welds... (so echo that point)

Good Luck!

Benjamin Robertson

[Mazmarc63]

That got me thinking... about way back when...

Does anyone remember the days of Nick Craw (club prez) going around the country running his ITS 240z to the tune of "Beat the Boss"?

wow that feels like a long time ago...

It was...and you were like what, eight years old??:D