Need Advice/tips - Building an ITA Saturn SC [Archive]

Xian

01-07-2010, 11:22 AM

Buying is certainly a smart move if you can get a solid car that has had all it's maintenance and has a decent cage... otherwise you may be buying someone else's issues. The other thing to consider is "why you want to race". Do you just want to race a competitive car in IT? Does it "need" to be an ITA car? What about other classes? Would you rather build/race a Saturn just b/c it's a Saturn (ability to compete aside)? Some folks want to run XXX car and could car less how much it costs or how competitive they'll be...

924Guy

01-07-2010, 01:11 PM

Start practicing your wheel bearings changes. Note that this requires a press or maybe even dealer-specific tools in a Saturn.

What Jeff said. :)

Mikster

01-07-2010, 05:08 PM

Reasons for building a Saturn: 1. I have had the car since '92 it has 275,000 miles on it and is not worth selling. 2. ITA is the only class this car can race in. 3. I like it. 4. While I want to be competitive, I want track time more. I have already started the work.

Jeff I will be emailing you for assistance.

Mikster :shrug:

Knestis

01-07-2010, 09:02 PM

1. I have had the car since '92 it has 275,000 miles on it and is not worth selling.

The money you are saving by starting with that car will be spent 10x by building rather than buying.

2. ITA is the only class this car can race in.

See #1.

3. I like it.

You'd better because it will sit unfinished in your garage for a long time.

4. While I want to be competitive, I want track time more. I have already started the work.

You can have more track time sooner by spending less on something else. Work spent is a sunk cost. You'll never get it back but good money after bad is always rough on the fun factor. Jeff can tell you more but you're looking at 2-3x the amount of $$ to just get it legal, safe, and out there, as you would spend on something that's already done.

K

JeffYoung

01-07-2010, 09:27 PM

What's funny is I think everyone in this thread advocating buying v. building (and they are right by the way, from a purely rational perspective) ..... built their own car.

Buying a car makes economic sense and will get you on track sooner. BUT, you are still stuck with a car that someone else built there way. We've pretty much redone the 260z to Ron's liking, spending far more than the buy cost.

Building is more emotional and more expensive. But if you like tinkering and want things done YOUR way, it's the only way to go.

As an aside, the 260z experience (built in Atlanta in the early 90s and cheated all to hell when we got it) has made me add a corollary to the "cheaper to buy than build" concept. While generally true, it only is as true as we all think if you are just going to drive the car you bought "as is." EVERYONE thinks they know how to build a car, and once you "buy" one that someone else has bought you will soon start thinking "I really wish that..." And you will spend a lot of money and time correcting it.

Z3_GoCar

01-07-2010, 10:26 PM

Hey Mik,

Welcome to the madness that's IT. My advice is to get the cage and suspension done before you move on to building the motor. I think Jeff has the connections to get some of the more unique parts for the Saturn chassis.

JLawton

01-08-2010, 08:35 AM

John,

I was in a rush yesterday with my first post and should have been a little more friendly. Sorry about that!!

I was lucky enough to get this car for little money and it immediately put me towards the pointy end of the field...........Well, ALMOST at the pointy end. So there are cars out there for short money that are good and legal. Hell, for the price of a good suspension on the Saturn you can buy a completed car.

Don't get me wrong, I've thrown thousands and thousands at the car to develope it more but I wouldn't build one from scratch. I do love racing the car becasue it is unique and takes a beating and keeps coming back!! :eek: And there are times where I wanted to drive it off a cliff.

I'll be more than willing to help you where I can. Good luck!!

Knestis

01-08-2010, 08:48 AM

What's funny is I think everyone in this thread advocating buying v. building (and they are right by the way, from a purely rational perspective) ..... built their own car. ...

To clarify, what worries me is when someone builds a car for the wrong reason - typically because they can't afford to buy one that's already done. "I already have it" is one of the 7 warning signs of making that mistake.

I built my car from scratch knowing full well that it was going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20K to get it right, and that I wouldn't be going into debt to do it - and that was back when Cameron and everyone else who helped were working for fun and pizza!

I would just hate to see you (John) make the same error that has caused a LOT of others to spend $$ and end up bummed out and not racing. Yeah, it's none of my business but the point of a community like this is to help out when we can. If you've got the $$ in the bank to start, and have enough discretionary dough to get it done by whatever date you expect to be on the track, then rock on. The acid test is, "Can I afford to buy - right now - a car as good as the one I want to end up with?" If the answer is "no" then one can NOT afford to build the same car, 'cause it's going to cost 2x as much!

If you've caught the credit-card, "build it over time as I can afford it" bug, you run the risk of joining the 250,000+ SCCA members who have come and gone since I got my member number. I'd wager that bad $$ decisions are the #1 reason that the road racers among those quit.

We'd rather have you stick around. :)

K

gran racing

01-08-2010, 09:13 AM

While I still think buying a car makes the most sense, when I honestly look back at things building was the right decision for me at that point in my life. Knew little about cars (this forced me to learn stuff), had plenty of time, and truly did the "just get it out on the track route" with bare minimim other than safety gear.

Greg Amy

01-08-2010, 09:57 AM

Just to clarify Jeff's statements further...the Saturn is a good car for ITA. It makes decent power and torque and its weigh is very advantageous. However, it has one major flaw: everything on the car is unique. Virtually everything is custom-fabricated.

Compare that to the Miata: you can build a 95th-percentile-build ITA Miata simply by writing checks and bolting on parts. ANYTHING you need for it is already fabricated -- hell, you can even buy a almost-fabricated-almost-bolt-in rollcage! You can buy a plug-in (and tuned) ECU, you can buy bolt-in exhaust and intake, you can buy bolt-in suspension. "Prego, it's in there".

The Saturn, on the other hand, really offers nothing. Suspension? Fabricated Koni 8611-based struts. Brake lines? I don't think so. Swaybars? Unavailable (at least the larger size Jeff has). Intake, exhaust, internal engine parts? Nope. And the killer: ECU. Fuggedaboutit, you'll be wiring up and tuning a Megasquirt all by your lonesome (Jeff has a GM-engineer-modified factory ECU that is pretty much "unduplicatable").

It's the same conundrum with the Nissan NX2000 that won the ARRC in 2006: built it, and you can race it. But that"build" is years of investments in customization, testing, and tuning. Which is why we're now building a Miata...

So when those of us that have done it always tell new folks "buy, don't build", that's what we mean. But when Jeff says it, what he really means is "buy, don't build, 'cause you simply can't afford to do it with a Saturn SC competitively in any way, shape, or form."

As an aside, there's a couple of sister cars to Jeff, both white as I recall, both built by the same group of SPS racers/GM engineers. They each come up for sale every year or two. If you REALLY want to race a Saturn, you're saving yourself scads of time, money, and hell by buying one of those as a start.

GA

callard

01-08-2010, 11:03 AM

I'm building my ninth race car with two unsold. I've never bought someone else's car. But what the guys above said it true. If you want to get on the track, buy one now. If you want to keep costs down, buy one. If you want to be competetitive, research and buy a good one. If you want to spend 30+ years in the garage drinking beer and puttering, build.
Chuck

924Guy

01-08-2010, 12:08 PM

As an aside, there's a couple of sister cars to Jeff, both white as I recall, both built by the same group of SPS racers/GM engineers. They each come up for sale every year or two. If you REALLY want to race a Saturn, you're saving yourself scads of time, money, and hell by buying one of those as a start.

GA

Greg's totally right on this. I knew Jeff's car well before Jeff had it; I crewed on that team, know the engineers who built it, and you damn well better believe it cannot be duplicated for any price.

Except buying. Which you should do. Chris Berube's car is still for sale; it is one of those aforementioned team/sister cars to Walker's old car, aka Jeff's car, the red one. I can hunt down Berube's contact info around here somewhere - I remember seeing the posting on the walls at Milford, sure we can still find it. You'd be far better off buying Chris's car and parting out your car, if you've got that big a hard-on for a Saturn.

Note that the cage in those cars was designed using the original GM CAD files for the chassis - it's second to none. Just like the inside access on tuning the ECU.

This is as close as any of us can come to affording a factory-built factory team racecar. Even if it is a Saturn! ;)

Oh, for the record, as one of those who built my own... I had guys like Walker (who built Jeff's car) advising me down the right path. Yes, I built the car that I had. But I almost immediately scrapped it for a better candidate of the same model. While it was hopelessly outclassed (being an ITA car at the time), it was at least a perfectly solid car for the track, being a Porsche.

The SC2 is NOT. Even when fully prepped, it requires vast amounts more maintenance than the Porsches, when both are run at the pointy end of the field. Things like bearing wear (I repack mine every year, change them when I feel like it), brake wear (no new pads more than once a year), engines (going on 5 or 6 years on the same build, my own), shocks etc... I'm sure Jeff can provide the counterpoints in detail for the SC2, but I know from firsthand experience that pads and bearings are lucky to last more than 2 weekends on that car...

quadzjr

01-08-2010, 03:00 PM

as a similar story to the 260z. I bought a "race ready" car with log book. I have spent now 3 times that price making it legal and getting it on the track. However I am happy with what I have now, even if it won't be competitive.

lesson learned. It is smarter fincially to buy a car, however make sure that the car is atleast close to what you want. This is the mistake I made. Basically the only thing that I kept from the old car was the rolling chassis and spares.

lateapex911

01-09-2010, 02:00 PM

Here's one more angle:
A race car is a tool. To win in, to learn in, to compete in. The bottom line is that it is a disposable commodity. You must be willing to trash it, if that's what it takes.

Now, build it yourself, and you've sunk hours, errr, moths of your time (and there is a possible family 'cost' to that) AND money....you're deeply invested in that car.

That can work against you in two ways. One, you're afraid to approach limits, to race hard, because you cringe at the thought of redoing just completed work (the fresh paint syndrome), and two, because you have so much invested in the car, it would represent too large a loss for you to bear.

Those are bad things to be thinking of when racing a car.

If you buy, (after doing the numbers on what it will REALLY cost*), you laugh when you roll up on grid, because you're thinking, "I'm racing $20K worth of parts that cost me $7!"

But the best part of the buy mentality is the freedom. Buying sets you free to sell it. You're just not that deep into it, and when the time comes to move up/over or out, you don't look at your pile of $25K receipts for a car that will sell for $7, and stop. It hurts a lot less to sell your $7K car for $5, and chuckle thinking about the fun and wins you got for $2K.

* It's very tough to estimate what it will "Really" cost to build a car. Compare built versions of the car you are considering. Jeff's Saturn for example. Look at what it has, then source those components, apply labor, and a number will spit out. In Jeffs case, the starting number is REALLY hard to determine, because it was build semi-'in house' by a Saturn engineer. But, safe to say, the replicate cost...to build the same quality/function..... is in the $30K range.

gran racing

01-09-2010, 03:36 PM

On the flip side, it can also work FOR you in a way. You built the car, spend hours and hours working on it, and now can fix stuff pretty darn easily because you've already taken just about everything apart on it. Oh wait, is that actually good? LOL

lateapex911

01-09-2010, 05:46 PM

yea, but you can do that with a built car you buy. You're just not forced to. I think that, at this time, it''s a great time to buy built cars. It's a buyers market. Unless you are forging new trails and building what you think is the next "surprise winner", the only reasons to build your own are that you love to do it, and/or are very good at it. But Kirs right, you'll be on track faster if you buy, and you'll have money left over to work on the most important part of the car, the nut behind the wheel. THAT"s where the extra money should go: tracktime.

downingracing

01-09-2010, 06:12 PM

Bought my race car(SSC Civic). Ran it for a few years in Regoinal SS classes (back when we had 10-15 SSC cars at a Regional...). Converted it to ITS when it moved to IT. Then got it moved to ITA. Been building/fixing it for over 10 years now. Didn't build it, but have 'built' it in upgrades and repairs (more than I like to think about in 10+ years) and know the car inside and out.

We built my brother's Civic, but had a perfect shell to start with. Would have been cheaper to buy, but had a great starting point with tons of go-fast parts and many years of experience with the model. (Having hundreds of spare parts makes the build easier!)

If you want to have the fun of building - go for it! It really is FUN! You will know the car inside and out when it is complete!

If you want to race ASAP - write a check and have fun! You will still go thru the car after purchase (Prior to racing it), so you'll 'kinda' know the car.

I'll buy my next race car (unless I want a break and feel like taking my time to build one - AKA: too poor to race and need an excuse to not be... :D ).

dickita15

01-09-2010, 06:56 PM

I bought my first car then built my second. The good thing about this was I knew a lot more of what I wanted to do when I did the build.

Mike Mackaman

01-10-2010, 02:25 PM

I have an ITC Civic for sale right now for $2000. I have seen cages cost this much. I know that the guy I got the car from paid much more than this for his son to race and then it sat for several years. While I agree it is fun to build, and I built my car, it would have been cheaper for me to buy, and I would have been on track a few years earlier. Start adding the cost of parts up and it gets scary fast. Buy those parts for pennies on the dollar and it gets attractive.

Mike

ITS5GB

01-10-2010, 05:05 PM

Ah yes, building a car. What a great time of the year to think about it.
Sitting in your office chair, staring out the window or perhaps lying in bed at night after everyone is asleep.
You have visions of the car on jackstands in the middle of the garage. All your tools neatly laid out. Boxes of performance parts stacked, ready for install. The tempature is a perfect 68 degrees. The lighting, not a shadow anywhere. Not a speck of dirt, oil, or other contaminents on the floor. The garage stereo plays your favorite songs. Your wife pokes her head in the garage and with a warm smile tells you, "don't worry about dinner, I've ordered a pizza for you. The kids and I will eat at the table. You enjoy yourself. I'll help the kids with their homework and put them to bed after dinner. I love you ." It's a labor of love, every nut's thread matches every bolt.... The wiring is simple, orange to orange, white to white......your hands seem to fit in every crevice of the car and you manage to contort yourself in to unbelievable positions to get under the dash to connect all those gauges that work perfectly right out of the box.....every 20 year old nut and bolt on the car cooperates, amazing! The day you take the car to the cage builder the sun is shining, the trailer lights work perfectly. You driveway is the perfect angle to load the car by yourself with out damaging the front spoiler that, by the way, bolted on perfectly the first time. Blah, blah blah, blah blah.....
It ain't like that. Well, at least for most of us.
I've bought 5 cars and built one. Unless I win the lottery and am able to quit my job and buy wife out with vacations and diamonds, I will never build again.
I should have invested the money in the stock market when it hit 14,000 and sold it when it was down to 6600, I'd have been better off.
My IT7 car took 3 years to put together and almost $8000. I put a little development time in to it and sold it for $3100 (I hope my wife doesn't visit this site).
I was told too...but didn't listen.
Listen to these guys, they know what they're talking about!
And remember, someone much wiser than myself once told me, "IT DOESN"T COST A DIME TO DREAM!"

924Guy

01-11-2010, 11:52 AM

Ah yes, building a car. What a great time of the year to think about it.
Sitting in your office chair, staring out the window or perhaps lying in bed at night after everyone is asleep.
You have visions of the car on jackstands in the middle of the garage. All your tools neatly laid out. Boxes of performance parts stacked, ready for install. The tempature is a perfect 68 degrees. The lighting, not a shadow anywhere. Not a speck of dirt, oil, or other contaminents on the floor. The garage stereo plays your favorite songs. Your wife pokes her head in the garage and with a warm smile tells you, "don't worry about dinner, I've ordered a pizza for you. The kids and I will eat at the table. You enjoy yourself. I'll help the kids with their homework and put them to bed after dinner. I love you ." It's a labor of love, every nut's thread matches every bolt.... The wiring is simple, orange to orange, white to white......your hands seem to fit in every crevice of the car and you manage to contort yourself in to unbelievable positions to get under the dash to connect all those gauges that work perfectly right out of the box.....every 20 year old nut and bolt on the car cooperates, amazing! The day you take the car to the cage builder the sun is shining, the trailer lights work perfectly. You driveway is the perfect angle to load the car by yourself with out damaging the front spoiler that, by the way, bolted on perfectly the first time. Blah, blah blah, blah blah.....

Dang, Greg, you been hanging around my garage eating my wife's food while I'm out of town?!? :wacko:

raffaelli

01-12-2010, 10:16 AM

raffaelli

01-12-2010, 10:18 AM

Now, build it yourself, and you've sunk hours, errr, moths of your time (and there is a possible family 'cost' to that) AND money....you're deeply invested in that car.

Why I will spend 2010 in the T&S Tower.

Mikster

01-12-2010, 02:28 PM

I am real glad I joined the forum. It is interesting to read the different points of view.

I don't need this car to get on track, I have an SRF. This car is for fun/more track time/enduro's. I plan to make it as competitive as possible, but not chase the impossible (custom built parts). I also have the time to waste, my wife is no longer among the living, so the time to build is not a concern. I have some experience building race cars, Pony Stock dirt racers, so part of this is for the fun of building it the way I want it.

As no one on the west coast is available I will be emailing Jeff for advise, but will take advise/criticism from anyone.

My email address is [email protected].

Give me time and I will have a neat signature figured out.

Mik :shrug:

Xian

01-12-2010, 10:25 PM

Well... sounds like building is a "good" idea for you since most of the normal hurdles aren't there in your case. Best of luck with the build and definitely talk with Jeff about the Saturn. He's probably one of the few "experts" you'll find out there. Another would be John Obremski (sp?). He's a Florida guy and on this forum too... was running an SC2 and is building another Saturn right now.

planet6racing

01-14-2010, 10:47 AM

Ah, building a Saturn. I have very fond memories...

Your biggest challenge will be a limited slip differential. I know of a total of (10) that exist for the Saturns that are truly LSDs (and, yes, i have one of them).

As for ITA being the only class for the Saturns, that is incorrect. They are also classified in prep level 2 for FP. A little more freedom in what you get to do, plus it is a national class.

Good luck! The comments about doubling the budget and time are spot on, but if you take your time you really, REALLY get to know the car and every single nut/bolt on it. I certainly have a ton of pride in the car that I built...

Oh, and one nitpicky thing - there was no 92 SC2. For 91 and 92, Saturn only made the Saturn SC which came with the DOHC engine. 93 was the first year they came out with the SC1 and SC2 designation (SOHC vs. DOHC along with a number of body differences).

JLawton

01-14-2010, 10:51 AM

Bill,

What did you use for shocks? I was trying to point him in the right direction but the only thing I could come up with was custom.

planet6racing

01-14-2010, 01:27 PM

I'll have to dig that information up again. I'm running Koni double adjustables with a threaded sleeve and adjustable springs. Plus, I have the adjustable camber plates. I know the information is around, just need to find it again...

rgrunenw

01-15-2010, 11:05 PM

I really have to agree with the earlier comment about ending up with a partially built car in the garage, never making it on to the track, and being disenchanted with the whole thing.

There are so many trophy winning cars for sale under $10k that it is not even funny. If you are looking to get on track, there are a multitude of cars available for under $4k.

A basic low end prep on your Saturn will cost more than a fully prepped car:

- Cage: $1200 installed
- Belts: $100
- Net: $75 installed
- Seat: $200 installed
- Going through the car and replacing wheel bearings, hubs, worn suspension pieces, etc on your 275,000 mile car: An easy $1,000.
- Decent shocks and springs (not even coil overs): $800
- Cheap Header and exhaust: $250
- Race tires: $600

An easy $4000 without even trying. Even overestimating things, you are still at $3000.

Buy a car, learn what it takes to race from behind the wheel, and then if you really want to build a car, go into it with your eyes open.