Noise complaint group at NJMP

[StephF]

Just ran across this on another site.
http://trackracket.org/
Looks like they are getting fairly organized. Hope there's no major trouble coming. :(

[mossaidis]

That site has been available for a while... I know 'they' have reached out to folks around monticello and Palmer to inform residents about 'us'.

[callard]

Hmm.. the airport has been there since before WW II with unmuffled aircraft taking off and landing but suddenly it got noisy. Nothing mentioned on the website about planes bothering the neighbors.
Chuck

[Greg Amy]

Nothing mentioned on the website about planes bothering the neighbors.
Unfortunately, not true. From http://trackracket.org/Myths_and_Truths.html:




TO THOSE WHO SAY WE HAVE NO ROOM TO COMPLAIN FOR THE AIRPORT IS LOUDER:

The airport noise is intermittent, it comes and goes and last from 20 seconds to less than five minutes. The airport does not impede normal, recreational and necessary activities we perform in our residences. The noise produced by the Air Show is for only one weekend per year. Period. As to the noise produced by the testing of engines from Airworks- this happened intermittently and for only a few minutes at a time. Jet fuel is very expensive and testing was kept to a minimal length of time to save money. It was a sad day when Airworks packed their bags and said good-bye to Millville, tossing many dedicated workers out on the street. The bright side of the loss was that the noise stopped. The quality of live improved tremendously for the surrounding neighborhoods. Why would we want to go backwards?

For those who contend that once you have something that creates noise (airport) that you should just put up and fancy more? Suppose you go into a restaurant with a stain on your tie. Waiter comes, and while clearing the table, grabs your tie to wipe some grease from his hands. You are not amused, to put it mildly, but the waiter back in the kitchen says: “I found it ironic that he complained about the grease, when the tie was seriously stained to begin with.”

[quadzjr]

how old is NJMP? how long have the neighbors been there?

[Greg Amy]

NJMP opened in early 2008 (or was it late 2007?). I recall our first Regional at the first (or two) tracks was '08, anyway. Neighbors have pretty much been in the area for years before that.

Attached is a KMZ file for you from Google Earth. Download it, rename it from .txt to .kmz, then open it with Google Earth. While these satellite photos do not yet show the track (current data is from August 2006, indicating just how new the track is), NJMP takes up the area southeast of the airport between it and that road intersection to the southeast. Thunder track is along Buckshutem Road, and Lightning is east of that along Co Rd 555.

According to someone on RRAX, the majority of the complaints are coming from the neighbors to the west.

GA

[dj10]

Is the track in compliance with zoning & sound laws? If so end of discussion.

[Knestis]

That might be "right" but it's ultimately a losing proposition.

I'll be the first to say it in this forum, although Greg beat me to it elsewhere: There is precisely NO reason why our racing cars shouldn't be a lot quieter than they are. Not that this would make all of the complainers go away, but we aren't doing everything we can to be good neighbors.

K

[JoshS]

That might be "right" but it's ultimately a losing proposition.

I'll be the first to say it in this forum, although Greg beat me to it elsewhere: There is precisely NO reason why our racing cars shouldn't be a lot quieter than they are. Not that this would make all of the complainers go away, but we aren't doing everything we can to be good neighbors.

K

Totally agree Kirk. The only real issue with noise rules compared to the other sorts of rules we already build to is that compliance can only be measured ON THE TRACK, which is an expensive way to do it. Not to mention the weather variations.

Still, I'd be all for tighter noise restrictions. I watched the videos on the site complaining about NJMP and I'm very sympathetic. That track needs noise restrictions or its going to be shut down.

[Z3_GoCar]

From this article:
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20091230/STATE/91230005/Watchdog+group+files+suit+against+N.J.+Motorsports +Park

"Racetracks are exempt from state noise ordinances, but the city established a rule that said noise from the park can't exceed 80 decibels for 20 continuous minutes. Separate noise studies conducted by the park and the city's zoning officer Wayne Caregnato say the park has been in compliance with the law.


But Griffin argues the park is not excluded from the city's public nuisance ordinance, and thus must reduce the noise. Griffin said the plaintiffs hired a noise professional that shows different results than the city's and park's studies.


Griffin said the group doesn't have an exact decibel-level they think would be acceptable, but said the number is likely closer to 40 decibels."

Looks like they want the track to be quieter than a public road:blink:

[dickita15]

Having been thru the task of permitting a track I could not agree more that we would be better off if we ran at a lower sound level. It does not hurt the quality of racing one bit and make survival of our sport much easier. NHMS forces us to run at 100 dB so we went with that limit for our new track.
When you start running numbers on sound it is amazing how far it travels. By the way background measurements of sound levels in rural Palmer were 42dB. Sound barriers are problematic because to be effective they must be very close to the sound source compromising safety.
When I built a new exhaust for my Rx7 about six years ago I tried to see how quiet I could go. With presilencers the car never was over 89dB, now that the system in older it has come in as high as 93 at some events. For another data point when the Busch cars ran at Lime Rock a few years ago we measured then at 120dB.
There is no reason we could not be racing at 85 or 90dB. I would rather pay for mufflers and testing that to have to tow an additional 5 hours to race.

[JLawton]

The fiirst race we went to in 2008, everyone we talked to in the area was very excited about the track and what it would do for the local community. Millville is not exactely thriving economically.........

[Greg Amy]

The "community" as a whole supports the track, Jeff. It's just a few local-to-the-track folks that are upset about the noise. Problem is, those locals tend to be pretty noisy themselves about the issue, get in peoples' faces, and cause action. "Squeaky wheel" and all that.

The Sandbox has some links to the woman driving the issue, and she's no idiot. Don't expect any changes short-term but also don't expect this issue to go away any time soon...

[quadzjr]

In her example it seems to me that it is the GT cars on track. the sound of a 500+ hp v8 is pertty distinguishable.

[StephenB]

In her example it seems to me that it is the GT cars on track. the sound of a 500+ hp v8 is pertty distinguishable.

I see that as one of our big concerns. If the track is forced long term to only allow a certain amount of non-muffled events. (Like limerock) I bet we will end up paying more to keep those dates and again like other tracks our entries will need to go up. Quieter cars and doing our part as Good neighbors isn't a bad idea and maybe something we should start to look into. ..


Stephen

[quadzjr]

However alot of people, won't volunteer to purposely "possibly" slow their car down when their competitors don't.

The only way it will work is if it is mandated, and on top of that test on both sides of the track. This way you don't hav epeopel just turnign there exhuat exit depending on where the meter is.

I remember a 914 at a Chin driving event at roebling blowing around 100 on the front straight and around 100 between 2 and 3 about a foot ball field away!

[callard]

Prior to SCCA introducing their first noise limits (108 Db) I was running around 112 with megaphones on my 911. After a winter of exhaust work on the dyno, I came back with the same car and posted 93 Db and was a second faster.
I spent a lot of time with Bill Scott at Summit Point trying to convince him to post his own track noise limits for all events (not just SCCA's events which are now 103 Db.) The marque clubs think noise if fast and we all suffer the neighbor's displeasure because of that. Bill didn't see a need since his track was grandfathered. You can tell the difference on which club is at the track easily from two miles away from Summit.
I'm totally in support of reductions in sound levels to keep using any track facilities.
Chuck

[924Guy]

Noise limits won't kill the racing, and might just keep our hearing a little bit longer too...

My home track is Waterford. Sound limit is 74Db for a black flag - at the properly line, which is the top of the wall along the back straight. Note that the wall is approx 10-15' or so from the edge of the track.

Keeps a lot of people away, because they're not willing to throttle down their cars from the SCCA norm. Still have pretty good racing anyway.

[Knestis]

I read the word "megaphone" and was reminded of the late '70s, when I attended my first SCCA Club races. The C Prod RX7s at the time ran megaphones. When they got far enough down track that you were in the cone of doom that projected out of them, you'd literally feel ill from the sound. But everything was loud - earplugs were absolutely mandatory and even at that, I've suffered some hearing loss that I attribute to that period.

K

[BruceG]

The "community" as a whole supports the track, Jeff. It's just a few local-to-the-track folks that are upset about the noise. Problem is, those locals tend to be pretty noisy themselves about the issue, get in peoples' faces, and cause action. "Squeaky wheel" and all that.

The Sandbox has some links to the woman driving the issue, and she's no idiot. Don't expect any changes short-term but also don't expect this issue to go away any time soon...

I sent a respecful email to their website, Greg....suggesting that they might want to talk to Lime Rock and NHMS about how they deal with the problem with their respective neighbors.After
all, LRP is surrounded by towns with lots of rich folks and has been around since 1957. Also, they ran Trans AM and Can AM
at LRP in the 60's(TransAm at Loudon,too)....DB hell for those that hate the noise.

[StephF]

Having been thru the task of permitting a track I could not agree more that we would be better off if we ran at a lower sound level. It does not hurt the quality of racing one bit and make survival of our sport much easier. NHMS forces us to run at 100 dB so we went with that limit for our new track.
When you start running numbers on sound it is amazing how far it travels. By the way background measurements of sound levels in rural Palmer were 42dB. Sound barriers are problematic because to be effective they must be very close to the sound source compromising safety.
When I built a new exhaust for my Rx7 about six years ago I tried to see how quiet I could go. With presilencers the car never was over 89dB, now that the system in older it has come in as high as 93 at some events. For another data point when the Busch cars ran at Lime Rock a few years ago we measured then at 120dB.
There is no reason we could not be racing at 85 or 90dB. I would rather pay for mufflers and testing that to have to tow an additional 5 hours to race.

^^ This.

[seckerich]

Both my EP RX7 and my ITS car never post higher than 88-89 db and the power is just fine.

[Z3_GoCar]

The problem will be that a couple of pro-FA (or what ever feeder series replaces FA) guys will show up and get flagged for sound:shrug: It's easy to add mufflers on production based/sized cars, formula cars are a horse of a different color.

I don't think one track in all of Cal-Club has sound limits... Cal-Speedway is surrounded by city but the nearest neighbor is a rail yard and steel mills. Our sound guy was (he moved out of region and hasn't been replaced) measuring sound for cotton plants. Contrast this with NASA with no sound limits...

[Knestis]

... a couple of pro-FA (or what ever feeder series replaces FA) guys will show up and get flagged for sound

Bah. It's totally doable. The formula and SR guys/gals said the same thing when the current sound limits were imposed. "Impossible!"

BS.

K

[RedMisted]

I just hope that the noise issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of all, and that the track can continue to operate as normal as possible.

The problem with these situations is that they eventually become political. And as an area continues to develop, the political power tends to shift from the offending entity (racetrack, airport, etc.)to the nearby communities.

[Z3_GoCar]

... a couple of pro-FA (or what ever feeder series replaces FA) guys will show up and get flagged for sound

Bah. It's totally doable. The formula and SR guys/gals said the same thing when the current sound limits were imposed. "Impossible!"

BS.

K

The Pro guys don't have a sound limit, and you're forgetting the NASA angle. I know of one SR guy who was arguing that same point just before the CRB repealed the national sound limits. Like I said our region no longer has a sound guy...

[CRallo]

The problem will be that a couple of pro-FA (or what ever feeder series replaces FA) guys will show up and get flagged for sound:shrug: It's easy to add mufflers on production based/sized cars, formula cars are a horse of a different color.

I don't think one track in all of Cal-Club has sound limits... Cal-Speedway is surrounded by city but the nearest neighbor is a rail yard and steel mills. Our sound guy was (he moved out of region and hasn't been replaced) measuring sound for cotton plants. Contrast this with NASA with no sound limits...

The Skip Barber formula cars that run at Laguna Seca are under 85db. When they do fail sound, it's usually a body work or wing rattle! lol It's a simple exhaust mod to do plus a lil retune. Anyone running one of those cars (FA or whatever) sure can afford it...

[alberto_mg]

Sounds a wee bit similar to what happened at Bridgehampton.

[Flyinglizard]

Less noise= less pissed off neighbors. (PON)
So, your sitting around your barby, having a beer, while the freakin race track is running. Does it matter that it has been there 20years? No. The noise is a bother. Do your next door folks think the same thing??
Noise is about the only thing that can unite a neigbhorhood.
The law has no value if the elected officials want to lower the noise level.
We leave our circle track when the mods come out,
the race cars are just too loud.
Why is it a pleasure to get in your tow car, and drive home, nice and quiet? The race car was too loud!!
Most enduro drivers will run faster laps, for a longer period of time if the car is quiet, IMHO.
If you want to have race tracks for racing,not golf, then the tracks should not piss off the locals. IMHO.

[Karl Bocchieri]

As a guy that lives on Long Island and used to race at Bridghampton all the time, and now have to go 3 hours to Lime Rock the next closest track, you should all be woried.

A few very vocal, organized and politically active people can gain enough support to, restrict the sound level, number of days or operation, ect.... untill like Bridghampton it becomes financialy unprofitable, then it becomes a golf course. I hate golf.

The problem with these people are, they are never satisfied, you can muffle, and it's still not quiet enough. If you were driving street cars on the track they would be complaining.

[MMiskoe]

The problem with these people are, they are never satisfied, you can muffle, and it's still not quiet enough. If you were driving street cars on the track they would be complaining.


The last time we went to the Bridge my dad's Suburban failed the sound test.

[Ron Earp]

Adopting lower noise limits makes a lot of sense. We'd all be much better off and enjoy a slight boost to our image.

What could be extremely troubling is different tracks adopting vastly different noise limits. Trying to hit 100dB here, 80dB there, and 90dB over there will be a lot of work. Sure, you could go for the lowest common denominator but one of your competitors will end up tuning the exhaust for each track and picking up a minor advantage over those that done. But a low, club wide noise limit for the entire SCCA would knock some cars out of racing.

General Aviation faces similar threats to small airports all across the country. As mentioned, organized efforts like this one, even by a handful of people, can have disastrous effects. Disastrous depending on which side of the fence you're on.

[John Herman]

SAE J1169 is one objective procedure used in the automotive exhaust industry to validate an exhaust system for road use. States like California were having a HUGE battle with the sport compact car crowd on "excessive noise" on modified cars. Lots of tickets were being written on subjective opinions. SEMA worked with the police and SAE, and this objective test was developed. The California law was written such that a car was legal if it recorded a reading of less than 95 dBA when tested to the procedure. Exhaust manufactures can now easily certify their systems for California. I know a few East coast states have now adopted the California law as well. The basic test is a microphone is placed at 0.5 m at 45 degrees to the tailpipe and the engine is held at 3/4 of the engine speed at rated horsepower. The result must be below 95 dBA. It's a very simple test to run, and could easily be modified to fit various classes. For example, what's the 3/4 rated speed of a GT car? Don't know, but the rule for GT cars may be <95 dBA at 5000 rpm. Some testing would be required to correlate this test to track side testing, but I think it could be done and would allow competitors to quiet their cars without track testing. Also, since cars are tested individually, the effect of other cars racing in a pack is eliminated. Finally, noise does NOT equal horsepower and so I agree with others that a more proactive approach needs to be taken on this noise issue before more tracks are shut down.

[dyoungre]

"But a low, club wide noise limit for the entire SCCA would knock some cars out of racing."

This comment befuddles me. How does the addition of a muffler completely void the function of a car? Lap records may not be set for a few years, but completely knocking cars out of racing because a muffler needs to be retrofit? I don't buy it.

[Ron Earp]

SEMA worked with the police and SAE, and this objective test was developed. The California law was written such that a car was legal if it recorded a reading of less than 95 dBA when tested to the procedure. Exhaust manufactures can now easily certify their systems for California. I know a few East coast states have now adopted the California law as well. The basic test is a microphone is placed at 0.5 m at 45 degrees to the tailpipe and the engine is held at 3/4 of the engine speed at rated horsepower.

SEMA / CA adopted this almost straight word for word from the UK sound laws governing most tracks. 1/2 meter, 3/4 max engine speed, 45 degree angle from the collector output. Works for most engines/vehicles but is a difficult hurdle for many, such as GT40 / Lola / Can Am cars with a large displacement engine located midship with a very short length of exhaust to work with.

[dtanthon]

The SJR/NJRRS banquet is at the NJMP Officer's Club on 1/30. I'll ask about this concern.

Also, the SCCA National Convention is in Vegas this same weekend. I'm sure 'noise' will be a hot topic. Anyone attending this year? In March we have the NEDiv Round Table in New Jersey, this will also be a topic for discussion.

[lateapex911]

As a guy that lives on Long Island and used to race at Bridghampton all the time, and now have to go 3 hours to Lime Rock the next closest track, you should all be woried.

A few very vocal, organized and politically active people can gain enough support to, restrict the sound level, number of days or operation, ect.... untill like Bridghampton it becomes financialy unprofitable, then it becomes a golf course. I hate golf.

The problem with these people are, they are never satisfied, you can muffle, and it's still not quiet enough. If you were driving street cars on the track they would be complaining.

Karl, the Bridgehampton situation is much different. !- you live on an island. It take YOU forever to get anywhere off the island, but the reverse is true...getting rigs and pro teams to the Bridge was a major PIA. That, and once there, accomodations were difficult, at best. Further, the track was guilty of not keeping up with the times. perhaps it ws because of the impossibility of attracting pro level events due to it's isalnd location , but, in the end, the finacial realities meant that the land was far more valuable when repurposed. Just as a golf range in a suburb gets eaten by development.

Lime Rock faces similar issues. PIA to get to for the big rigs, and difficult to find accomodations that are nearby.

NJMP has none of those issues.

However, the town and the track should cooperate and try to make a reasonable effort at blocking the sound, even if it pus large walls up right next to the track. I have no issue with SCCA looking at noise limits, but we have to remember that we're not the only ones on any particular track. Perhaps NJMP will be granted certain "current level" limit days, and the rest gets knocked down.....investigation will reveal whether this woman has a case or not, but politics are the overiding issue here.

[dickita15]

The SJR/NJRRS banquet is at the NJMP Officer's Club on 1/30. I'll ask about this concern.

Also, the SCCA National Convention is in Vegas this same weekend. I'm sure 'noise' will be a hot topic. Anyone attending this year? In March we have the NEDiv Round Table in New Jersey, this will also be a topic for discussion.

Darrell, I was planning on asking the CRB if there has been any discussion but if anyone thinks a lower standard it I good idea a quick note to the CRB would be a good idea.

[Flyinglizard]

The Lola and Gt 40/can am cars can use the real racer mufflers that late models use. Two 4in in , with a balance chamber, one 5 or6 in turnout. Makes 650 hp tolerable at 50 ft. Borla, Flowmaster, Shoenfield. Do a quick search , .
Check that, the T70 would have to put two mufflers in the fender wells. A balnce pipe would have to pass the gearbox and bodywork, not .
Boat stuffers was used on the street conversion for these cars.
Street T 70, yeah. 450 hp,on off clutch, Hewland crashh box, shitty brakes cold, what could go wrong?? MM

[benspeed]

We should work on rezoning around the track to eliminate residential property...:-)

[disquek]

Bear in mind that comments here could be used as part of this litigation.

I'd skip commenting publicly about what our options are. Better to not provide fuel to the opposing side of this fire.

-Kyle

[BruceG]

Karl, the Bridgehampton situation is much different. !- you live on an island. It take YOU forever to get anywhere off the island, but the reverse is true...getting rigs and pro teams to the Bridge was a major PIA. That, and once there, accomodations were difficult, at best. Further, the track was guilty of not keeping up with the times. perhaps it ws because of the impossibility of attracting pro level events due to it's isalnd location , but, in the end, the finacial realities meant that the land was far more valuable when repurposed. Just as a golf range in a suburb gets eaten by development.

Lime Rock faces similar issues. PIA to get to for the big rigs, and difficult to find accomodations that are nearby.

NJMP has none of those issues.

However, the town and the track should cooperate and try to make a reasonable effort at blocking the sound, even if it pus large walls up right next to the track. I have no issue with SCCA looking at noise limits, but we have to remember that we're not the only ones on any particular track. Perhaps NJMP will be granted certain "current level" limit days, and the rest gets knocked down.....investigation will reveal whether this woman has a case or not, but politics are the overiding issue here.

I have written twice to the protagonists, informing them that the SCCA is only one of many clubs using NJMP, that we are always interested in getting along with out neighbors and that they should contact the SNJR SCCA region. The woman who wrote me back(and is the principal in this complaint) was gracious and thoughtful in her presentation to me of the issues).

Sugar rather than vinegar works wonders with a lot of folks

[RacerBill]

Karl, the Bridgehampton situation is much different. !- you live on an island. It take YOU forever to get anywhere off the island, but the reverse is true...getting rigs and pro teams to the Bridge was a major PIA. That, and once there, accomodations were difficult, at best. Further, the track was guilty of not keeping up with the times. perhaps it ws because of the impossibility of attracting pro level events due to it's isalnd location , but, in the end, the finacial realities meant that the land was far more valuable when repurposed. Just as a golf range in a suburb gets eaten by development....

From the 'Yahoo Real Estate website'

'Most Espensive U.S. Small Town: Sagaponack, NY

Sagaponack is not the only rarefied real estate market, no matter how poorly the country's housing market is doing. Long Island's two counties, Nassau and Suffolk (where Sagaponack is located) account for more than half of the 50 most expensive small towns in America. Nearby Water Mill (http://realestate.yahoo.com/New_York/Water_Mill/;_ylt=AjlLxfCZcOttu2Vu_MC6eyLxkdEF) (No.6) and Bridgehampton (http://realestate.yahoo.com/New_York/Bridgehampton/;_ylt=AjcLUOO8eT7UE_PdpB._iGbxkdEF) (No. 8) command median sale prices of $2,238,676 and $2,081,717, respectively.'

Could this be the real reason we don't race at Bridgehampton anymore? BTW, Bruce McLaren and Dennie Hume used to love to waterski at Sag Harbor - while the rest of the field was fighting for starting positions behind them!