ITR Mustang

[Jethro]

Howdy All

Looking at turning a recently aquired 95 Mustang into an ITR car for 2010.
This is a V6 car, but would consider doing the V8 swap for 2011, for now just wanna make it safe and handle.
Any advise on mustangs in ITR would be appreciated, I assume there is a few that have been built allready.
Mainly looking for wheel, tire, brake and suspension tips.

Thanks in advance.

[Ron Earp]

The 1995 cars are classed in ITS, at a new attractive weight I might add.

Ron

[billf]

Let me chime in here, and possibly answer a few questions.

As noted, the '95 is classed in ITS. The '99-'02 is classed in ITR...but in both classes the allowed weight is probably WAY lower than physically achieveable, regardless of what components can be deleted, or replaced. Although I'm glad SCCA is approaching classification in IT with a plan in mind, this particular car is classed too light for reality. It probably should have ended up in ITA at a more realistic weight.

Having had a few years experience with the Fox in ITB, I have thoughts on how to make the chassis work better, and eliminate some of the undesireable characteristics of its handling. Incidentally, I'm working on an ITR, which has parallel issues, and the weight sensitivity part, too (I don't expect to make anywhere close to the allowed weight). Therefore, what I'm saying is: You might want to be VERY judicious in adding any component that is not manditory for safety. Specifically, I'm thinking of Panhard Rod, or Watts Links, or added roll cage bars due to the added weight. Try to solve the problems with bushing selection (in the rear, very soft, or very mechanical), to reduce/eliminate the bushing-bind that is the source of the handling quirk.

At the front, the same philosophy everyone else who uses struts, will apply to this chassis. Try to find hollow sway bars instead of solid bars.

Cage: be very careful where the bars are located, and if you really need/want them. Tie into the chassis at the spring mounts in the rear, not the shock mount. In front, tie to the firewall where the upper frame extends off to the core support.

Plan to remove any and every component allowed to lighten the car. Lose a few pounds, yourself (difficult, but possible...and allowed by the rules!!!).

Happy holidays.

Bill:024:

[cjb25hs]

Chris Dercole has one and he is on the board, it is a 99 and up though. His handle is RedMisted on here.

[Jethro]

Thanks Guys

I've been talking with Chris and he's a wealth of info.
Looks like I'll have to run 15" tires, yuk!
stock size is 205/65x15, and looks to me like the only popular racing size is gonna be 225/50x15, this make sence to anyone?
Any tips on strut manufacturer choice, even from the 79-94 guys?

[cjb25hs]

Thanks Guys

Looks like I'll have to run 15" tires, yuk!
stock size is 205/65x15, and looks to me like the only popular racing size is gonna be 225/50x15, this make sence to anyone?


You can go to a 245/50/15 in the Hoosier. I would also suggest you talk with Sam Strano from Stranoparts. He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to Fox Body Mustang setups.

[billf]

ITR allows the cars to weigh a few pound more, so additional suspension parts may be more desireable, and less injurious to performance. For ITS, I'd think even more critically about added weight.

Personally, I'm a fan of smaller wheel diameters with generous width, to reduce the rotational mass of the wheel assembly. Aftermarket/racing lists have 15's avaiable in various offsets. What you will have to pay for is lightness, not the size. Additionally, the handling can be enhanced by the placement of the lower A arm (smaller diameter wheel assemblies put the ball joint closer to the ground), giving you the opportunity to have an up-ward angled lower arm. This will give you enhanced camber change during bounce.

Differential gear set ratios available (stock and aftermarket) for the 7 1/2 inch, are 3.08, 3.27, 3.4, 3.73, and 4.1. I prefer the lower gears with the second, third, and fourth transmission gears being used.

What you want to concentrate on is how to enhance the handling without adding to the weight of the car. Aftermarket parts all weigh pounds and ounces...from which the car/engine combination cannot benefit. Hollow sway bars are available, too.

Start your project with a through reading of the Mathias book on Mustangs ("chassis", actually number two). It will give you a grounding in the four link design, and its consequences. Solutions are proposed which work, but all add weight. There is one concept that is not in that book that will lessen/eliminate the problem. That is to replace the source of the problem (the rubber bushings), with spherical bushings. This is the major solution in the rear of the car. Peruse the AS sites also...they have delt with the problem for years, although their solutions are added mechanicals (weight).

Good luck.

Bill:024:

[RedMisted]

Bill:

I really don't know about using 15" wheels on such a heavy car shod with horrible brakes. I use the airier 17" rims with all the brake tubing I can cram into the wheels. Our rotor sizes are 11"--pitiful by ITR standards. At tracks like Watkins Glens or Nelson, brakes are not a major issue so I guess you could run the smaller wheels. But at a Gingerman or a Beaverun, that brake pedal is gonna be down on the floor before you know it. I'd rather have the weight of the larger wheels knowing that my brakes are getting all the cooling possible.

Another reason to optimize brake cooling: The ITR Mustang is equipped with PBR aluminum front calipers, unlike the earlier SN-95 cars that came with cast iron bits. This is great for weight, but these calipers deform like crazy in the heat, even at the easy tracks. It's normal for me to replace the front calipers (at about $65 a pop)about every other event. If I don't, I'll be wasting box after box of $200 brake pads. So running the larger wheels helps me to minimize an economic issue.

Just my $.02

[billf]

Chris,

I'm interested in the brake problems you experienced with the aluminum calipers. Did you see caliper deformation? Brake pads welded to the pistons? Was there evidence of boiled fluid (pedal to the floor, etc)? Did the seals turn to carbon? (I'm trying to think of all the brake-related problems we had with the 2.3 Liter ITB car.)

Thanks for the input about the brakes. Your answers will make me reconsider the choices I have.

Jethro is, of course, planning on ITS, which has mandated smaller wheel sizes, and lower weight. Also, supposedly, the engine has somewhat lower power potential in typical IT tune. All of which, may lower his threshhold of brake problems.

Thanks,

Bill:024:

[RedMisted]

Bill:

What happens with the PBR calipers is that they splay out, so that the brake pads begin to wear cock-eyed. This problem is very commonplace in the left front, and occasionally an issue on the other side unless racing at tracks with an abundance of left turns.

It's also common for the piston sleeves to burn up. No, I've never had fluid boil to the point where I was literally hitting the floor. (Sorry if I exaggerated a bit.) But I've had to throw heel-and-toe downshifting out the window a few times because the pivot point would change enough to compromise throttle-blipping.

The solution? Get as much air as you can to the rotors. Cut off the dust shields, mount the bigger wheels and run tubes no smaller than 3" in diameter. Use super hi-temp fluids and remember to bleed the fronts halfway through an event if racing at a brake-killer like Beaverun.

Pads can make a difference with cooling. Unfortunately, I only have experience with Hawk Blues. I'm told that other companies, such as Carbotech (which I will be trying in '10), may have superior offerings.

Brakes are the big operational weakness with these cars. I learned alot this past year about the need to baby my brakes, and to plan my race strategies accordingly.

And although the bigger wheels hurt weight, you can mount wider rubber. A tradeoff, just like anything in racing.

Hope this helps.


Chris,

I'm interested in the brake problems you experienced with the aluminum calipers. Did you see caliper deformation? Brake pads welded to the pistons? Was there evidence of boiled fluid (pedal to the floor, etc)? Did the seals turn to carbon? (I'm trying to think of all the brake-related problems we had with the 2.3 Liter ITB car.)

Thanks for the input about the brakes. Your answers will make me reconsider the choices I have.

Jethro is, of course, planning on ITS, which has mandated smaller wheel sizes, and lower weight. Also, supposedly, the engine has somewhat lower power potential in typical IT tune. All of which, may lower his threshhold of brake problems.

Thanks,

Bill:024:

[Ron Earp]

What happens with the PBR calipers is that they splay out, so that the brake pads begin to wear cock-eyed. This problem is very commonplace in the left front, and occasionally an issue on the other side unless racing at tracks with an abundance of left turns.

It's also common for the piston sleeves to burn up. No, I've never had fluid boil to the point where I was literally hitting the floor. (Sorry if I exaggerated a bit.) But I've had to throw heel-and-toe downshifting out the window a few times because the pivot point would change enough to compromise throttle-blipping.


Very interesting discussion.

I'm not sure I'm following everything though. You mentioned that you have heat problems and that the heat is deforming the calipers, but, then you say that you're not boiling the fluid. I'm assuming what you're experiencing is some fatigue and thermally induced stress relief, but, you'd need to get some pretty serious heat into it to do that. And that would boil your fluid.

What you've described with your pedal feel is pretty much SOP for Z cars and many other ITS cars. And, it can typically be fixed with a serious analysis of brake ducting and cooling. You might have to switch to a new piston seal of that is having problems but the dust shield on the outside, well, those are going to get hard crumbly and fall away.

What sort of rotor and caliper cooling do you have now? I assume you're using a air hat on the rotor that feeds air to both sides of the rotor and you've got a similar device mounted on the caliper itself. Since these are slotted rotors you might want to feed air into the center hub and skip the rotor hat.

Anyhow, you should be able to make these brakes work and not experience heat problems. I've collected a lot of brake cooling setups over the years. Once I pick this Mustang up I'll have a look at the front area and might be able to offer some suggestions.

[RedMisted]

Ron:

Serious, the combination of brake torque plus whatever heat does cause these calipers to deform. They are soft, crappy pieces. Lightweight as heck, but still soft and crappy. They splay out where the outer pad retaining "fingers" are located. Once this happens, the pads take a serious beating in localized areas.

My cooling set-up is pretty basic: run a 3" tube to the inside of each rotor. I bought some brake spindle connections from Quantum Motorsports that allow me to run that size tube to the rotor, aimed not at the rotor center but just above. Perhaps not optimal, but after experiencing the limitations of the Mustang's brakes at Beaverun and Gingerman for the first time this past year, I'm thinking that some special pieces will need to be fabbed to get the air to a better location. And while using larger tubes...And more tubes... BTW, My intakes use the faux foglight locations to the max.

You mentioned something about slotted rotors. I assume you meant vented unless I'm mistaken and the GCR now allows the use of true aftermarket racing rotors with surface cooling slots. The Mustang OE rotors are simple bald-faced bits, but vented.

Yeah, when you have any ideas on this topic, I'd be eager to hear them!

Happy holidays to all! :)

[Ron Earp]

You mentioned something about slotted rotors. I assume you meant vented unless I'm mistaken and the GCR now allows the use of true aftermarket racing rotors with surface cooling slots. The Mustang OE rotors are simple bald-faced bits, but vented.

Yeah, when you have any ideas on this topic, I'd be eager to hear them!

Happy holidays to all! :)

Yep, I meant vented.

So there is no duct to the caliper itself? If not you'll need to correct that.

I'm actually concerned that the caliper lacks the mechanical strength to handle repetitive braking forces that may not be heat related at all. But, with a modern OEM design and all the liability a manufacturer is burdened with I find that a bit hard to believe. I bet it'll be possible to figure out a solution for the problem.

[Ron Earp]

Hey Chris,

What year is your car? I'll check around and see if there happen to be some casting differences or running part order changes. I know the books show the same part number for all years, but if you've messed with Fords any you'll often times find changes that didn't result in a part number of suffix change.

Ron

[Marcus Miller]

Ron- talk to the T1 corvette guys, they have this problem all the time on the C5, which are similar calipers, no?

[Ron Earp]

Ron- talk to the T1 corvette guys, they have this problem all the time on the C5, which are similar calipers, no?

As Chris mentioned they are PBR calipers and I think a similar caliper was used on the fronts of C4s if I'm not mistaken.

I think this is the OEM sales sheet on those:

http://www.pbr.com.au/downloads/brochures/7331_Caliper_Brochure.pdf

I imagine some discussion with PBR directly would result in some insight to the problem if it is indeed non-cooling related. I know that these same calipers are used on the front of Australian Roaring Forties GT40 replicas of which a few are used in sanctioned racing there. I know one of the guys really well and I don't recall them indicating they had caliper flex or failures, but I'll quiz him more directly about that.

[RedMisted]

The Quantum pieces only have a connection for a single tube to the rotor. So nothing for the caliper. I've known that it's critical to cool the binders as well. But let me ask, how might this be done given space limitations inside the wheel? I'm not that well-versed in brake cooling setups.

You raise an interesting point, that the real problem with caliper splay may be more a function of material weakness under load, and not really a question of heat.

My car was built in May, 1999. I put the month because there apparently are some differences, I don't know what, between early '99s and Mustangs manufactured later that year.





Yep, I meant vented.

So there is no duct to the caliper itself? If not you'll need to correct that.

I'm actually concerned that the caliper lacks the mechanical strength to handle repetitive braking forces that may not be heat related at all. But, with a modern OEM design and all the liability a manufacturer is burdened with I find that a bit hard to believe. I bet it'll be possible to figure out a solution for the problem.

[Ron Earp]

I've known that it's critical to cool the binders as well. But let me ask, how might this be done given space limitations inside the wheel? I'm not that well-versed in brake cooling setups.

Probably need to fabricate a manifold that will bolt onto the caliper and get air into the pad area as well as the outside housing. I made some for Jeff's TR8 and have seen others of similar design for the Z. Think about making it from sheet metal, or fiberglass as Mike M did for the Z, and having a 3" duct on the backside for the hose. The part that wraps around the housing will need to be thin if you're using stock wheels.

One of the big reasons that folks got away from the smaller wheels on the Z was to get more brake cooling. Just having the wheel further away from the caliper assembly helped with airflow and also helps with packaging of cooling hardware. If you're sticking with the 15" wheels it may not be possible to get enough cooling in there and that might be part of the problem.



You raise an interesting point, that the real problem with caliper splay may be more a function of material weakness under load, and not really a question of heat.

My car was built in May, 1999. I put the month because there apparently are some differences, I don't know what, between early '99s and Mustangs manufactured later that year.

And PBR might be able to help here as they should definitely have the data on what sorts of loads the caliper can handle. Something tells me that for a company like PBR that supplies damn near about everyone that the caliper itself can handle the load. And if it didn't at some point it time it was re-designed.

And lastly, this might not mean anything but AutoZone lists two different part numbers for the driver's side front caliper depending on the year:

1999 is this one and had a picture
Part Number:
C466

2004 is this one and didn't have a picture
Part Number:
C898

For the real story you'd have to go to Ford but in theory the 99-04 cars are the same car.

[RedMisted]

Ron:

Thanks for checking on the calipers. The two part numbers at AutoZone probably doesn't mean a thing.

If the calipers eventually show themselves to be truly substandard from a material/design standpoint, would we have any recourse with the powers that be to run anything else? For example, 13" Mustang Cobra brakes? (Geez, I wish!) Sure would help with durability (and heat).

Interestingly, I hear that the A Sedan Mustangs were given allowances with their brakes because of severe overheating. Of course, those are much heavier cars travelling at much higher speeds.




Probably need to fabricate a manifold that will bolt onto the caliper and get air into the pad area as well as the outside housing. I made some for Jeff's TR8 and have seen others of similar design for the Z. Think about making it from sheet metal, or fiberglass as Mike M did for the Z, and having a 3" duct on the backside for the hose. The part that wraps around the housing will need to be thin if you're using stock wheels.

One of the big reasons that folks got away from the smaller wheels on the Z was to get more brake cooling. Just having the wheel further away from the caliper assembly helped with airflow and also helps with packaging of cooling hardware. If you're sticking with the 15" wheels it may not be possible to get enough cooling in there and that might be part of the problem.



And PBR might be able to help here as they should definitely have the data on what sorts of loads the caliper can handle. Something tells me that for a company like PBR that supplies damn near about everyone that the caliper itself can handle the load. And if it didn't at some point it time it was re-designed.

And lastly, this might not mean anything but AutoZone lists two different part numbers for the driver's side front caliper depending on the year:

1999 is this one and had a picture
Part Number:
C466

2004 is this one and didn't have a picture
Part Number:
C898

For the real story you'd have to go to Ford but in theory the 99-04 cars are the same car.

[Ron Earp]

If the calipers eventually show themselves to be truly substandard from a material/design standpoint, would we have any recourse with the powers that be to run anything else? For example, 13" Mustang Cobra brakes? (Geez, I wish!) Sure would help with durability (and heat).


Nope, choose another car.

I don't have any position of power in IT land but alternative equipment is clearly not in the fundamentals of IT. If the brakes turn out to be non-workable, and I seriously doubt that will be the case, then that is, as they say, tough shit.

I'm not discounting your observations on the brakes but there is much R&D to do before passing judgment on them. Early Z brakes didn't work well either until racers had done years of development to reach a tried and true formula.

[RedMisted]

Early Z brakes didn't work well either until racers had done years of development to reach a tried and true formula.

Really? Seems to me that the Z cars I've seen run basic cooling setups like mine. I thought that these cars were able to handle the heat and loads because of their radically low weight.

[Ron Earp]

Really? Seems to me that the Z cars I've seen run basic cooling setups like mine. I thought that these cars were able to handle the heat and loads because of their radically low weight.

Maybe they do in the Midwest, not sure. In the SE with CMP in he racing mix, fluid, cooling hat, caliper duct, pad selection, and lots of brake maintenance are required to make the solid disc Z brakes work well from 2450 to 2575 lbs (240z to 280z).

All I'm saying is there is a lot more to do before you should worry too much.

[Z3_GoCar]

Another reason to optimize brake cooling: The ITR Mustang is equipped with PBR aluminum front calipers, unlike the earlier SN-95 cars that came with cast iron bits. This is great for weight, but these calipers deform like crazy in the heat, even at the easy tracks. It's normal for me to replace the front calipers (at about $65 a pop)about every other event. If I don't, I'll be wasting box after box of $200 brake pads. So running the larger wheels helps me to minimize an economic issue.

Just my $.02

You should go to a welding supply shop and pick up a temperature crayon. Aluminum looses much of it's strength when heated up to 195*F - 250*F. It's no suprise that you're getting creap if you're getting close to this temperature.

...Also, you could add a water spray system to keep your calipers cooler too... It'd be a good use for the windshiled washer bottle and pump.

[RedMisted]

...Also, you could add a water spray system to keep your calipers cooler too... It'd be a good use for the windshiled washer bottle and pump.

I have heard of water cooling systems on pro cars, but is such a thing legal in IT? I have never heard of water-cooled brakes on an IT car.
If I know the GCR, if it does not mention something, you can't have it. And I don't recall the IT chapter allowing for water-cooling of much of anything except the engine.

[Ron Earp]

Aluminum looses much of it's strength when heated up to 195*F - 250*F. .

Somehow I don't think that is the case. Pure aluminum melts at over 1200F, most alloys slightly less. Given the fact most modern engines have blocks and heads made out of aluminum and operate at 180F to 250F as standard fare, it doesn't reason that the aluminum would give up much of its strength at that temp. Hell, I suspect the the brakes on the street cars are hitting 180-190F in stop and go traffic. They don't fail there.I can check with a fellow I know who has extensive casting experience with aluminum if interested.

You'll definitely want to use temperature crayons or paint to check temps, or, a pyrometer. Back in the dark days of TR8 brake work we were getting some obscene 475-500F temperatures, bona fide verified with temp probes, on the calipers. Bad things happened to lines,seals, and even tires/wheels when that was going on.

[Jethro]

245/50x15 wow that seems really wide, do you know if the fenders will need to be rolled to clear that. What width rim would be required? 8"?

Thanks for the advice guys.

[Z3_GoCar]

Somehow I don't think that is the case. Pure aluminum melts at over 1200F, most alloys slightly less. Given the fact most modern engines have blocks and heads made out of aluminum and operate at 180F to 250F as standard fare, it doesn't reason that the aluminum would give up much of its strength at that temp. Hell, I suspect the the brakes on the street cars are hitting 180-190F in stop and go traffic. They don't fail there.I can check with a fellow I know who has extensive casting experience with aluminum if interested.

You'll definitely want to use temperature crayons or paint to check temps, or, a pyrometer. Back in the dark days of TR8 brake work we were getting some obscene 475-500F temperatures, bona fide verified with temp probes, on the calipers. Bad things happened to lines,seals, and even tires/wheels when that was going on.
Ron, this is based on something I read about aircraft structures, it's the difference between a Mach 1.5 plane like the Concorde and a Mach 2.0 or more plane. In a motor block they can over design the casting thickness to compensate for the loss of strength. A caliper on the other hand usually doesn't have that much extra space for more material.

[Z3_GoCar]

245/50x15 wow that seems really wide, do you know if the fenders will need to be rolled to clear that. What width rim would be required? 8"?

Thanks for the advice guys.

The 8" rim is a recommended width. I run 245/45's on a 7" rim no problem.

[RedMisted]

Ron, this is based on something I read about aircraft structures, it's the difference between a Mach 1.5 plane like the Concorde and a Mach 2.0 or more plane. In a motor block they can over design the casting thickness to compensate for the loss of strength. A caliper on the other hand usually doesn't have that much extra space for more material.

The brake pad retaining "fingers" on the 11" brake calipers of the '99-'04 Mustang V6 and GT are very thin indeed. I know the torque is a culprit with the caliper splay on our cars, but the heat can't help. Not when the material is so thin. Just check a Mustang caliper against something off, say, a Corvette and anybody will see that Mustang brake systems were not developed with road racing in mind.

Among the latter SN-95 cars, I've always believed that the Cobra (made with larger brakes plus IRS) was meant for road racing, the GT was designed to be a drag racer and the V6 was built for, well, looking cool while getting the groceries...:shrug:

[billf]

Ron,

Keep me in the loop if you are able to get the information.

Thanks all,

Bill

[Ron Earp]

Ron,

Keep me in the loop if you are able to get the information.

Thanks all,

Bill

Will do, I sent out feelers already

I got your PM too, thanks and I'll respond back.

[Ron Earp]

The brake pad retaining "fingers" on the 11" brake calipers of the '99-'04 Mustang V6 and GT are very thin indeed. I know the torque is a culprit with the caliper splay on our cars, but the heat can't help. Not when the material is so thin.

Hey Chris,

How thick are the fingers on your calipers? I measured mine and they are right at 0.700" on the nose from the outside of the finger to the back of the pad. That is at the "thick" area. You saying the little finger right there on say the middle one is what is flexing?

http://www.gt40s.com/images/Mustang/front.JPG

Also, the backs of these calipers are nicely done. Twin piston with some fairly decent cooling fins cast into them. Those cooling fins will make a great perch for a manifold for brake cooling.

http://www.gt40s.com/images/Mustang/back.JPG

[RedMisted]

All three fingers will flex outward. Not just the middle one.

Rear calipers are terrific. I've had mine on my car for several years of aggressive abuse. No cooling tubes to the rear brakes, and I use Hawk HP-Plus street pads. I change these pads about every 6-7 race weekends, minimum.

[JeffYoung]

Chris how have you observed this? Someone in the car hitting the pedal while you watch?

On the rears, how hard do you use them? Can you lock the rears? Do you have the stock proportioning valve, or an adjustable?

ONe of the tricks to getting a Z car or the TR8 to stop is to make sure you are actually using the drums in the rear, but taking out the stock proportioning valve, putting in an adjustable, and dialing in rear brake.

[RedMisted]

Chris how have you observed this? Someone in the car hitting the pedal while you watch?

On the rears, how hard do you use them? Can you lock the rears? Do you have the stock proportioning valve, or an adjustable?

ONe of the tricks to getting a Z car or the TR8 to stop is to make sure you are actually using the drums in the rear, but taking out the stock proportioning valve, putting in an adjustable, and dialing in rear brake.

The front calipers gradually distort as they are exposed to repeated brake torque and high operating temperatures. I make it a habit to check pad wear after every track event, and eyeball the caliper fingers. When the pads are cock-eyed and the fingers are splayed out, there's no need to measure anything, as you can see the caliper distortion in plain sight.

So the caliper doesn't really flex like a rubber band and then regain original shape. It changes shape permanently. It distorts. Sorry if I had anyone confused on that one--- I was using too loose of an interpretation of "flex"

Car has a stock proportioning valve. I never notice rear lockup. I usually am a moderately gentle braker for the very reason that the Mustang brakes are crap.