What class? 150hp, fwd, mac strut/irs, 3230 curb weight?

[shwah]

The 2005 Jetta will be IT eligible next year.

That power level seems like it could fit ITS, but that fat weight may say otherwise.

What do you ITACers think?

I wonder just how hard it will be to make the brakes work and be IT legal...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Without any further discussion:

ITS: 2285
ITA: 2665

Looks like more of an ITA car. Like the DOHC Neon.

[cjb25hs]

Without any further discussion:

ITS: 2285
ITA: 2665

Looks like more of an ITA car. Like the DOHC Neon.

Would also be very similar it 2.3 liter Ford Focus (which may not be classed yet) and 2.3 liter Mazda 3. I would say definately an ITA car.

[Gary L]

Without any further discussion:

ITS: 2285
ITA: 2665

Looks like more of an ITA car. Like the DOHC Neon.

Yes, I know you said without any further discussion, but I'm gonna respectfully question why you wouldn't put the pig in ITB, where it most naturally belongs with that sort of stock power/weight ratio. I mean in the first place, how do you get rid of 600 lbs more or less, to make it work in ITA? (Never mind a half ton for ITS!) It should calculate at around 100 pounds below curb weight for ITB, why wouldn't that be a better fit? Too heavy? Then maybe it's not a very good candidate for IT racing at all.

[Andy Bettencourt]

3125 in ITB. Just put in the ITS weight because OP said 'ITS power'.

[JamesB]

Interesting thought, but at 3125 in ITB thats a tire pig.

[shwah]

I don't think we have an idea of just how much of the 'heavy' is IT removable though.

If I were to build one, I would certainly prefer a lighter weight in terms of consumable costs.

All those airbags, comfy seats, full size spare, etc adds up. I'll do some digging and see if I can learn some more about what the removable weight is.

[JamesB]

I agree that it can make it light easilly. If its anything worse then the MK4 Jetta, the carpeting alone is stupid heavy. Get rid of the central locking system, the radio, air bags, seats with air bags, the 100# muffler system. but I am not sure getting to the ITS weight is that easy given the construction of the car. It may find its best place in ITA...who knows.

[Marcus Miller]

Anyone have an idea of IT WHP? If it could be made to handle, that looks like a mighty interesting ITA car.

[JamesB]

Bolt on and chip mods look about 10-15%, full motor build could hit the majic 25% motor wise. Gearing and handling would be something to figure out. its mk4 mac struts but idependant rear suspension.

[shwah]

I agree with James. I would guess ITA weight is reachable. We'll see what I turn up.

[cjb25hs]

I would assume the following guesses, keep in mind its German

sound deadening and undercoating - 100lbs
Gutted interior carpet seats door panels etc.. - 250lbs
A/C System - 50lbs
Stock exhaust - 120lbs
Stock wheel savings - 20lbs
14.5 gallons of gas - 90lbs

That would be about 630lbs off the stock curb weight bringing it down to 2600 lbs. The other thing to keep in mind is the amount of torque that car has stock which is 170. To be classed in A I believe that the curb weight would have to be higher closer to the 01-03 ACR Neons at 2780. The first gen DOHC Neons only made 150HP & 133TQ. The 01-03 ACR's made 150HP & 135TQ. Also keep in mind that the 2004 Mazda 3 is classed at 2840lbs with the 2.3l at 160HP & 150TQ.

I would think that somewhere in the 2800lb range would be the correct weight for the '05 Jetta.

[shwah]

Looking ahead the 5th gen 06 Rabbit/Golf sneaks under 3000 lbs just barely. I don't think it would play well to go up in weight for ITS. ITA sounds more and more 'right' to me.

[JamesB]

I still think that the weight it would get is based on what Andy posted, but that could be subject to change by maybe 50# but not as much as your quoting.

As for reduction, I think your over estimating things. I figure it this way

3230
-65# for the rear seats (around the same weight of the previous generation) and door cards
-80# for all the damn air bags the car has. (4 of them, 2 live in the front seats.)
-120# for the front seats and center console
-75# for carpet and headliner.
-100# for exhaust after replacing it with raceable exhaust.
-60# for all the crap in the trunk plus rear speakers

Then add in a full cage, and there may be just enough after door glass, automajic locks and undercoating is removed to make weight.

[shwah]

According to the interwebs:

"just food for thought. completely gutted you can get the rabbit down to 2400lbs... removing EVERYTHING including cutting metal bars off the car and all the wiring, weather stripping, etc etc. everything really does mean everything."

[shwah]

It also looks like it is likely that the only change when they went from 150 hp to 170 hp was a spec line in the brochure. The motor is the same, some say even the programming was the same, and the early motor was intentionally under rated to distance it from the 2.0t motor (200hp), and in fact it had 170 from the get go.

I wonder if that puts it into S territory, considering that the 172hp VR6 is classed there at 2600.

[Bill Miller]

If the curb weight is 3230# and the ITA weight is 2665#, you need to figure out how to get between 850# - 875# out of the car. You've got the obvious 565# difference between curb weight and spec weight, then you have to find ~300# more to take out to offset the cage and the driver. Figure roughly 1.75 lbs/lin. ft. for 1 3/4" x 0.095" DOM mild steel tubing. I seem to recall someone telling me that you need ~60 lin. ft. of tubing to do a typical IT cage.

[cjb25hs]

There is no way that this car can be classed at 2665#. If that is the case then why is the 01-03 DOHC Neon ACR and Mazda 3 with the 2.3l motor both classed at over 2800# with basically the same stock HP. The thing I find interesting especially in the Mazda 3's case is it's stock curb weight is around 2740# which is lower than what it is classed at:shrug:

[Bill Miller]

There is no way that this car can be classed at 2665#. If that is the case then why is the 01-03 DOHC Neon ACR and Mazda 3 with the 2.3l motor both classed at over 2800# with basically the same stock HP. The thing I find interesting especially in the Mazda 3's case is it's stock curb weight is around 2740# which is lower than what it is classed at:shrug:

The way I understand it, curb weight only comes into play when it's a consideration if the car can actually get down that low (or would require large amounts of ballast in the next higher class).

[JoshS]

There is no way that this car can be classed at 2665#. If that is the case then why is the 01-03 DOHC Neon ACR and Mazda 3 with the 2.3l motor both classed at over 2800# with basically the same stock HP. The thing I find interesting especially in the Mazda 3's case is it's stock curb weight is around 2740# which is lower than what it is classed at:shrug:

SSC Mazda3s can't get under 2900 legally. There's no way that car could have gotten anywhere near its ITS process weight. So it's classed in ITA lighter than they race in SSC.

[cjb25hs]

SSC Mazda3s can't get under 2900 legally. There's no way that car could have gotten anywhere near its ITS process weight. So it's classed in ITA lighter than they race in SSC.

Of course that is still with full interior and a/c. You gut it remove all sound deadening, stock exhaust, rear parking brakes and cables and ditch the a/c. I would guess that would knock off at least 400lbs.

[JoshS]

Of course that is still with full interior and a/c. You gut it remove all sound deadening, stock exhaust, rear parking brakes and cables and ditch the a/c. I would guess that would knock off at least 400lbs.

I admit that I don't know for sure, but I REALLY doubt that stuff ads up to anywhere near 400 lbs. And don't forget that the SSC cars already have some of that stuff removed. Gutted front doors, no A/C, no airbags, no radio/speakers, no muffler, driver's side race seat, etc.

[Bill Miller]

Like Josh, I don't know the exact number either, but I'd be surprised, even if you included all the stuff that you're allowed to remove in SS, that you'd get 400# worth of stuff out of the car. Maybe, but I don't think so. I know heated leather seats are heavy, and door glass / power window regs are heavy, but 400# is a LOT of weight.

[shwah]

Again - don't get too caught up in that 2665 number. There is a very real chance that these should be classed as 170hp motors. I'll keep digging on that and find out, but so far, I am told there were no hardware changes, maybe a software change, but maybe no change but updating the brochures to show the actual power.

So out of curiosity, what weight at 170hp in ITA or ITS?

[JamesB]

Chris - I found the same thing. Early 2.5 motors had much more gains from cat back and chip tuning then the new 170 motors.

[Andy Bettencourt]

So out of curiosity, what weight at 170hp in ITA or ITS?

~ About: assuming struts

2605 in ITS
3020 in ITA

[JamesB]

same chasis, higher HP rating on later model 2.5L NA motors.

[cjb25hs]

I admit that I don't know for sure, but I REALLY doubt that stuff ads up to anywhere near 400 lbs. And don't forget that the SSC cars already have some of that stuff removed. Gutted front doors, no A/C, no airbags, no radio/speakers, no muffler, driver's side race seat, etc.

I guess I forgot to think that completely thru. Yes if you took the door panels, airbags and a/c into the equation, it's probably closer to 250# of course I am looking at low fuel level as well.

[shwah]

~ about: assuming struts

2605 in ITS
3020 in ITA

front struts, rear multi link

[Charlie Broring]

I'll take the heavy ITA car on a long track, and the light ITS configuration on a short twisty track.

[shwah]

The rabbit appears to be a few hundred pounds lighter, but I wonder if you really could get 580# out of a car in an IT build. Is there anything that heavy in A?

[Marcus Miller]

The rabbit appears to be a few hundred pounds lighter, but I wonder if you really could get 580# out of a car in an IT build. Is there anything that heavy in A?

79 Mustang V6 - 3000
79-81 Toyota Celica Supra 2930


Man some of these weights are f`ed up.

[shwah]

Talking to Aaron about his experience with the T3 gti (same chassis) and he thinks it could get close to the S weight, based on a lot of heavy interior/window regulator and sound deadening components - compared to his Golf 3 ITB car.