Enduro length question?

[mtownneon]

What do you think the shortest time a race should be to be considered an endurance race?

[Cobrar05]

I am fine with the 90 minute races that are run in SEDiv. 3 Hours are my favorite. A 500 mile professional race is an endurance race. Make no mistake about it. Its also about the max that a solo amateur and a friend can do.

After that you get into needing a full crew and a bigger budget.

[Knestis]

Bah! The ARRC 3-hour should be one driver, no stops. And it WOULD be for our Golf if it weren't for the silly rule requiring two long spells sitting still.

6 hours is the shortest duration that I think of as an enduro.

K

[JohnRW]

One "B-U" (bladder unit).

[callard]

Having run them all, I'm with Kirk. Anything less than 6 hours doesn't really require a TEAM effort. Enduros aren't about one or two hero drivers but about a team working on car preparation, strategy and execution.
Chuck

[Marcus Miller]

I'm with Kirk and Chuck. 6 hours+.
A 3 hour 'enduro' is still a sprint race in how we prepare.

[Cobrar05]

Ah, the Enduro Elitists. Yea, I am sure the 6 hour / 13 hour /24 hour races are great.
This is not about whats fun. Its about what the minimum should be. Yes, there is more TEAM required to run all day long. There are also a lot guys that can't afford a TEAM. Can't afford all the tires and fuel. Can't afford to rebuild the car after one race.

It would be ridiculous to have no racing between a 30 minute IT spring race and a 6 hour race. Further, while I know Kirk loves the long runs I also see his posts regular trying to sell co-drivers so that he can come to the track and see his posts saying he didnt race because he couldnt get the co-drivers and the funding.

I can run a three hour race with one friend. That friend can be a driver or a none driver and I can have fun. I am fine with the option to race all day and all night if I want to, but I am not going to side up with you guys that think a race as long as the Indy 500 is not an enduro.

BTW...Kirk, if they let me refuel without getting out of the car and no minimum pit stop time, I'd race you with your 3 hour rules.

[Knestis]

>> This is not about whats fun. Its about what the minimum should be.

It's about what the minimum should be for something to be called an "enduro." I love me a 3-hour race. We won the NASA 3-hour at VIR in '07 overall. I spent most of the entire thing giggling like an idiot - except for a short trip to the tire wall and subsequent wheel change. HUGE FUN.

But an enduro it ain't. I'd way prefer it if Regionals were one group of cars on the track for 3 hours, rather than 4 groups on the track for 20 minutes each, with standing around in between sessions.

Enduro Elitists UNITE...!

:)

K

PS - I still have room for one more for the VIR 13. LOL.

PPS - If someone were considering some kind of "enduro" series, it would be very cool to weight the points by distance. That would balance out the risk/reward, cost/benefit math.

[joeg]

Anything originally scheduled for over 45 minutes is an Enduro.

[Cobrar05]

The long races are struggling to survive. The Homestead race is dead. The Ledges race was cut in half hoping to survive. The 6 hour Road Atlanta race had 25 cars in it.

There is a 9 hour at Road Atlanta in December. How many of you guys are going to be there? I am the series director and would love to see you.

Conversely we can make 3 hour races work all year long.

We run an enduro at each NASA SE event. Would love to see you out there. Its a lot easier to get car count when the race is a reasonable lenth.

[Knestis]

...There is a 9 hour at Road Atlanta in December. How many of you guys are going to be there? I am the series director and would love to see you.

Sure going to try.


We run an enduro at each NASA SE event. Would love to see you out there. Its a lot easier to get car count when the race is a reasonable lenth.

...and a lot easier to enter if they had an equitable, fair head and neck restraint rule, rather than a restraint-of-trade H&N system rule.

Point is that everything potentially matters when it comes to picking - so defining - races. Think what you want but I can make the math for a 12 hour enduro work out better than for a 3-hour simply because people - some people, not everyone - are willing to pay for a seat in a long race, where they aren't willing to pay what it costs to run 1/2 of a 3-hour.

K

[Cobrar05]

Ah...the SCCA protest against SFI. I have to wear a HANS if I want to race my Koni Challenge Mustang next season. No ISAAC allowed. Should I restrict myself to just SCCA because every body except SCCA requires an SFI approve device?

Oh, well. I tried, boys. There is a 9 hour race at Road Atlanta in December. We have 4 RA dates for next season with 3 hour races and another 9 hr race. CMP, Charlotte Motorspeedway as well.

[Marcus Miller]

I'd race the 9 hour in December.... If you hadn't scheduled it against NASA's hallmark event...

[NORRIS]

I'd race the 9 hour in December.... If you hadn't scheduled it against NASA's hallmark event...

Last year James Clay did both:eclipsee_steering:

This year he's only doing the nine hour:o

He must be getting old:lol:

[RSTPerformance]

Anything over an hour in my mind is an endurance race... But I am not racing a VW or Miata that will run all day long!!! I like three hours but would love to and would probably prefer to run 6,12, or 24hrs instead... The longer the race the more of a test for endurance is challenged!

Raymond "wow it's been a while since H&N took us off topic... Well done!" Blethen

PS: I also prefer to boycot any SFI snob series...

[Marcus Miller]

Last year James Clay did both

This year he's only doing the nine hour

He must be getting old

probably couldn't get a good deal (Free is good, right?) on a seat out here :026:

old?? ha! Will we see you for the 25, John? :eclipsee_steering:

[mtownneon]

So the longer the better but really anything under 3 hours isn't worth calling it an endurance race.

I ask because now that I'm chairing the Club Race program in the Indy Region I'm brainstorming with the rest of our Club Race board to come up new/better ideas for races. We had been offering a one hour "enduro" the last few seasons and participation in them has run off a cliff. I've also noticed other regions offering the same thing have been seeing similar results. My initial thought has been a 3 hour enduro as we could run it as part of a regional weekend program.

Any thoughts?

[dickita15]

Well if you prospective is that of a race organizer Dave, you have to ask yourself who you are trying to attract. A one to 3 hour can entice sprint racers to try something different. A guy can iron man a race that length or can do it with one buddy and they can use a pick up crew without a lot of prep.
With the proliferation of Miati that are easy on parts it really does not take much work to run a short endure.
There is a much smaller pool of hard core guys who like the long races but if you have the right track and the right date they will travel to participate.
We run a 3 hour at NHMS. We went to 4 hour and then to 6 but it hurt entries. NH is not a track well suited to enduros. Tough on brakes and not a good rhythm so we could not seem to make a longer race work.

[MMiskoe]

I'm brainstorming with the rest of our Club Race board to come up new/better ideas for races


What ever you do, don't have mandatory pit stops. There is/was a 4+/- hour race at WGI that I used think would be fun, but didn't go simply because they required 2 stops, 5 minutes each. That's not an enduro, that's a couple of sprints shared by a couple of drivers. If I understand it correctly them roundy round guys from down south on TV every sunday often do mandatory stops, you wanna be associated w/ them?

Enduro's have pit stops that require strategy (ie, long enough to force every car into the pits at least once and force the re-fuel/driver change to have some pre-race planning). Anything else is a sprint race w/ some interruptions.

[Ron Earp]

Deleted, missed the author's point.

[Cobrar05]

I am tired of the "Its not an enduro" line. The next step up from sprint race is enduro.
I am not aware of a single SCCA national or regional or NASA sprint race over 45 minutes in lenth.

Since there is nothing in between a sprint race and an enduro, by definition a race longer than a sprint is an enduro. The honest question is whether its your kind of enduro or not.

The "its not an enduro" claim only serves to eliminate or make exclusive YOUR kind of enduro racing. That means that it serves to discourage, not encourage people to join us. Thats the wrong approach. Hell, I drive a V8 car. I am not even allowed to enter most SCCA enduros. Thank god for NC Region and Atlanta Region.

So, lets start telling guys that are curious that its not an enduro unless they are ready to run at least 6 hours. Unless they know enough guys to crew the race car and know someone else he trusts to drive or is willing to chance driving someone else's car.

Last point in this rant. The pitstops. Its not a real enduro unless you have no required pitstops.

Grand Am Rolex requires a pitstop in the first 30 or 45 minutes of a race. I think ALMS does not allow any work on the car until fueling is completed. These are professional series. We are AMATEUR racers. AMATEUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1.a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=professional&db=luna).

Either we do pitstops in a way that takes as much of the risk for injury out of it or we go professional style, which means your entire team must be in firesuits with helmets.

[lawtonglenn]

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One "B-U" (bladder unit).


instead, all we really need is SFI approval of this:

http://www.egeneralmedical.com/mck-14001914.html

.

[callard]

Grand AM ST and GT classes (sedan cars similar to IT - not prototypes) run two to three hour sprint races as the norm. No mandatory time for pit stops but usually with two drivers. They also run a 6-hour Enduro at the end of the season at VIR for those cars. Just sayin....
Chuck

[JohnRW]

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instead, all we really need is SFI approval of this:

http://www.egeneralmedical.com/mck-14001914.html

.


"Gift-wrapping is not available for this product." - Why not, dammit ?

[Cobrar05]

Grand AM ST and GT classes (sedan cars similar to IT - not prototypes) run two to three hour sprint races as the norm. No mandatory time for pit stops but usually with two drivers. They also run a 6-hour Enduro at the end of the season at VIR for those cars. Just sayin....
Chuck

Actually, they require a driver change. That means they require a pitstop. Of course none of the cars could run 2.5 hours on a single tank of fuel anyway. The cars fuel load is regulated so that no team/car has an advantage.

The 6 hour race was reduced to 4 hours this season as well, because of increasing expenses and falling car count.

So, some of this applies and some doesn't.

[Knestis]

>> I am tired of the "Its not an enduro" line. The next step up from sprint race is enduro.

No fair arguing against drawing a semantic line in the sand by drawing your OWN semantic line in the sand, Rob. The original question asked for what those dictionaries call an "opinion."

How about a little more leeway in terminology? There's a whole 'nother genre that's somewhere between "sprint" and "enduro" - in my OPINION - that includes ECRs, 3- or 4-hour races, and anything that mandates pit stops. Some think of them as "enduros," others don't.

Sprint - Go as fast as you can for a short period of time; rewards intensity and the ability to get 10/10ths out of car and driver over the short run; requires optimization of the car for the purpose - outright speed.

Enduro - Go as far as you can over a long period of time, as fast as you can; rewards preparation, teamwork, organization, and patience; requires optimization of the car for the purpose - to run a long time without stopping.

"Extended Sprint" or "Mini-Enduro" - Go as fast as you can over a time longer than a sprint race; rewards some compromise between what is required for a sprint or enduro; requires no specific optimization beyond that required for sprint races due to specific mandates in the rules.

It's that last bit that is crucial to the definition. It would piss off the ECR/3-hour crowd if the rules let me show up and run one stint with my distance-optimized car. It pisses me off because mandatory stop rules handicap me for choosing to specialize my hardware. What if I asked that the supps demand cars tweaked harder than mine (solid bushings throughout, right at the minimum weight, etc.) to start 20-minute sprint races with a 1 lap deficit, to make the situation equitable...?

Mandatorty stops are racing socialism. :happy204:

Look - at NO point did I say, "Hey, regions wanting to make money - don't run any 3-hour or 90-minute races, dammit...!" I just said, "In my opinion, when they DO that, the races don't qualify for 'enduro' status."

K

EDIT - Sadly, I heard that NCR didn't get to its minimum entries to break even on the event. (I think Jeff Y. told me it was 60...?) Consider though for a minute that the economies, though just as real, are different for something like the 13-hour. Remember that the entry fee was $825.

[Cobrar05]

Actually, the OP was asking what is the minimum lenth for an enduro. Not the optimum lenth.

Which is why I said 90 minutes. 3 hours would be my favorite and the most often scheduled distance. Then I saw one "its not an enduro" after another.

The q was what is the minimum distance.

If we killed the under 6 hour enduros because, well, they aren't enduros. How many enduros would we have left?

As you say even the VIR 13 hours is struggling to survive.

I'd love to see a 5 or 8 race 3 hour enduro series. I think that would be a blast. But, i guess its not an enduro.

As for me...I am really looking forward to the ARRC 3 hour not an Enduro. I want that checkered flag for my trophy case. Enduro or not.

[Knestis]

..As for me...I am really looking forward to the ARRC 3 hour not an Enduro. I want that checkered flag for my trophy case. Enduro or not.

You and me both...!

See you there,

K

[callard]

What is this "Trophy Case" of which you speak????? :shrug:

[Bob Roth]

I believe its not an enduro if some cars can complete it without having a pitstop. Running 90 to 180 minutes without a stop is just a long sprint race.

The benefit of having pit stops (even if there is no fueling or tire changes) is that it allows multiple drivers to help pay the bills and gives a lot of guys the taste of what endurance racing is about. The more drivers we have, the more endurance racers in our pool. I thought it was great that the ARRC 3 hour had two manditory stops because it let me put 3 guys in our car. Also, it encouraged guys to compete with their sprint cars as it didn't penalize a team who wasn't running a giant cell. The result is there were a lot of guys at ARRC who now can say they have done an endurance race. Perfect.

[tdw6974]

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instead, all we really need is SFI approval of this:

http://www.egeneralmedical.com/mck-14001914.html

.
Glen, No Gift wrapping available according to site! :D

[Cobrar05]

I believe its not an enduro if some cars can complete it without having a pitstop. Running 90 to 180 minutes without a stop is just a long sprint race.

The benefit of having pit stops (even if there is no fueling or tire changes) is that it allows multiple drivers to help pay the bills and gives a lot of guys the taste of what endurance racing is about. The more drivers we have, the more endurance racers in our pool. I thought it was great that the ARRC 3 hour had two manditory stops because it let me put 3 guys in our car. Also, it encouraged guys to compete with their sprint cars as it didn't penalize a team who wasn't running a giant cell. The result is there were a lot of guys at ARRC who now can say they have done an endurance race. Perfect.

The ARRC 3 hour not an enduro is my favorite race of the season. I reject the idea of the "long sprint race". Sprint racers run 30-40 minute races. A 90 minute is more than twice the lenth of what a sprint racer runs. The Indy 500 and NASCAR races run 3 hours. They are considered endurance races.