WGI ITA track record

[dominojd]

I am very not happy. I just recently learned that the glen region is not recognizing Marc Cefalos ITA track record from the Last Chance regional. The previous day a GP, yeah GP honda CRX ran the enduro as an ita car. It ran 2/10ths faster than what Marc had run on sun during the regional.

What i'd like to know since when do enduro times count as track records? How will they know who was driving the car? How do we know if the car was compliant to class rules without much if any type of tech inspection? :shrug:

This really sucks.

BTW: I candy coated my real feelings.

[StephF]

That sucks. :(
But, AFAIK, enduros also run under an SCCA sanction number, thus making them sanctioned (i.e. regular/legal) events. So times recorded during them would count. Guess it's up to the region as to which driver is credited. I have run enduros where pits would come over and record who the driver was that just got into the car.
As far as the GP car running as an A car, that's FUBAR. How'd s/he do that? Were they in fact set up to be able to run A legally?
If not, then that's a slippery slope.....

[joeg]

You can cross a P car into IT...just need a cell and fire system.

It would obviously not be a very competitive P car running with glass windows, an IT motor, IT transaxle, etc., etc.

[dj10]

SM is a 1.17.0

[Andy Bettencourt]

Joe,

The first step is to find out who it is and ask them if its legit. If it's not - which I bet its not - meaning they wanted to run the enduro but GP wasn't allowed, they may volunteer to get it fixed.

I do NOT think lap records should count in enduros. In the middle of the race, you can run light without the opportunity for a compliance check.

[lawtonglenn]

I do NOT think lap records should count in enduros. In the middle of the race, you can run light without the opportunity for a compliance check.


+1

[datadude]

I do not agree with having one set of track records. Nelson has a few sets of track records, regiional/national events, 6 hour eenduros, 12 hour enduros and 24 hour.
I also believe that anything with a "PRO" attached to it should also have a different record file.

[Knestis]

Joe,

The first step is to find out who it is and ask them if its legit. If it's not - which I bet its not - meaning they wanted to run the enduro but GP wasn't allowed, they may volunteer to get it fixed.

I do NOT think lap records should count in enduros. In the middle of the race, you can run light without the opportunity for a compliance check.

Some regions/tracks explicitly state that enduro records don't count simply for that reason. And because it's not entirely possible to be sure who was driving, so who to recognize.

K

[datadude]

The other reason to have a separate track record file for enduros is this: Who Is Driving. With driver changes T&S doesn't know, except in IMSA, who is in the car. Crediting a driver with a record that he didn't set is unacceptable in my mind, ie the reason enduro records at Nelson have Team Names not individual driver names.

[StephenB]

They (Timeing and scoring) know the lap so can't they just ask the drivers who was driving at that time? Usually the drivers would probably know who it was anyway. seems simple to me...

Lets be honest how much light can you run in the middle of an Enduro compaired to the end? The only variable is Gas and I don't know many cars that FULL run much more than 100lbs when empty. IF they ran at empty in the middle are you assuming they filled up within a few minutes of the end to meet minimum weight? PS: I could do this same thing in a sprint race as well...

Enduros run under the same rules in the GCR as sprint races for each class would. Same protest process as well. For those reasons I think that Enduro, Pro, Sprint, ect should count as long as it has an SCCA Sanction #.

I think that the ITA or GP car in question would probably be honest and have his time removed if he/she was asked and his/her car was not compliant to ITA rules. If it was compliant He/She deserves the track record for the the SCCA class ITA as defined by the ruleset in the SCCA GCR.

Stephen

On Edit: Driver weight could be a big variable as well. That's why I always start enduros that me and my brother do :D

[lateapex911]

Stephen right, so, in an enduro, You start the race, and you run light fuel loads, on sticky fresh tires to gap the filed, because you know you'r stops are long, for whatever reason. You're running around 50 pounds underweight, get a huge draft off another class car, and bingo, you have a new track record.

How many times in a sprint race do you top up the tank before going to impound?

The troubling issue here is that people allowed a non class car to run illegally and the racord fell.

[StephenB]

Stephen right, so, in an enduro, You start the race, and you run light fuel loads, on sticky fresh tires to gap the filed, because you know you'r stops are long, for whatever reason. You're running around 50 pounds underweight, get a huge draft off another class car, and bingo, you have a new track record.

How many times in a sprint race do you top up the tank before going to impound?

The troubling issue here is that people allowed a non class car to run illegally and the racord fell.


Jake I agree with you on this. How was he allowed to run? I guess I also agree with you on the enduro Vs. Sprint race but if you knowingly cheat to get the track record in an enduro anyone could do the same in a sprint race and just run out of gas and finish last. This IS the reason that Nascar modified check track and Weight BEFORE they go out. Then again that's professional with thousands on the line!

Stephen

I hope that Marc gets this fixed he does deserve it!

[lateapex911]

Agreed, there are a myriad of situations that can result in bogus records. I know of a former record that was set with a known illegal car. It's not the only one, no doubt.

[ner88]

Want a track record, go out totally illegal, run the race and finish out of the top 5.
Who's going to know?:shrug:

[stinkin]

Greetings fellow IT drivers

From what I have heard through the grapevine, it sounds like it is
time to clear the air about my lap times at the Watkins Glen enduro. Ken
Buchel prepared the car to the current ITA specification to the best of my
knowledge. I believe some people are a bit confused, because Ken owns 3
Honda CRX race cars. One car is in H production, one in ITA and one in ITC.
The paint and graphics are nearly identical on all 3 cars. The lap record
times are not very important to Ken or myself, what is important is our
integrity.
In earlier posts we have been called cheaters by fellow drivers with
little knowledge of the vehicle or it's level of preparation. Earlier posts
have mistakenly identified the vehicle as a production car. Ken's production
car is a far cry from this car's prep level. Ken Buchel's cars are
beautifully built and run exceptionally well. It sounds like this is a
matter for you to discuss at your next board meeting, not one to make
personal attacks on the intergity of both Ken and myself via an online
forum.
If you have any questions please contact me at [email protected] ([email protected])

Bryon Beiler

[lawtonglenn]

.

Thanks for the clarification Bryon, as a driver of one of
two identically painted cars I am often accused of the
shenanigans of my teammate :D so I understand fully.

I didn't read all of the posts, but the ones I read weren't
blaming you or your builder for cheating, rather were concerned
that a crossover classed car (which yours is evidently not)
claimed a track record without being fully vetted in the class.
Your explanation that this was not an HP/ITA crossover certainly
dispels this concern.

I think that one of the larger questions is whether lap records
earned in an enduro should be treated equivalently with those
earned in a sprint race. The facts are, that in the enduro, the
driver to be attributed is not certain, and the controls on
weight during the race are not enforceable.

In a sprint race the driver, and car with remaining fuel, is
weighed. If it meets minimum at post race impound, it certainly
was over the minimum at every time during the race, and hence
during the record breaking lap.

In an enduro, one of the drivers could weigh substantially less
than the other(s), causing the car to go underweight, and/or
the car could lose enough fuel during the race to go under
weight. Either/both of these situations could be "corrected"
during the enduro, so that the post race impound weight appears
adequate.

Therefore the controls on "during race" weight are not the same
for enduros as they are for sprint races, and no one could
be absolutely sure that the record breaking lap was made with
a car that met the class minimum weight.

So...for the reasons of driver attribution, and certainty of
weight compliance, lap records won earned during enduros should
not be given the same importance as those earned during sprints.

.

[lawtonglenn]

I do NOT think lap records should count in enduros. In the middle of the race, you can run light without the opportunity for a compliance check.


+1 (again)

[Knestis]

I'm reminded of a recent enduro, where we watched a team bolting in a spare tire on their last stop. It looked kind of heavy...

:)

K