Paddle shifters?

[StephenB]

I know that automatics are not allowed in IT and that currently we don't have cars classified with Paddle shifters however does anyone know if they have spoken about or requested? More and more newer performance cars are coming with them. Do they allow them in T1 or T2?

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

I bet the Ferarri that won T1 had set up like that.

[JoshS]

They are allowed in those classes, but the cars that have them are not automatic transmissions. They are manual transmissions that have electronically-controlled clutches and shifters.

It is a reasonable question to ask about WHY automatic transmissions are not allowed ... if it is because the removal of a clutch pedal gives an unfair advantage, then maybe these sorts of transmissions should be disallowed as well. But for now, they are allowed.

[Bill Miller]

I know that the VW's in T3 are classed w/ and w/o DSG. The DSG cars weigh more.

[wcmcarlos]

I always thought the ban on automatics was based on the danger of fluid leaks and spills.
Am I wrong about that?

[Spinnetti]

I think it's just tradition.... sports cars don't have autos, and when created, nobody would dream of a sports car you don't shift yourself! (I still think that)

[GKR_17]

currently we don't have cars classified with Paddle shifters

Not so fast...

I believe SMG was optional on the Z4. And SMG is a manual per the GCR. So paddle shifters are already legal in ITR. That transmission was also optional on the 2003 E46 BMW's, but that year isn't on the spec lines yet.

[JoshS]

Not so fast...

I believe SMG was optional on the Z4. And SMG is a manual per the GCR. So paddle shifters are already legal in ITR. That transmission was also optional on the 2003 E46 BMW's, but that year isn't on the spec lines yet.

That transmission was not available on the Z4 variant that's listed in ITR.

[BruceG]

I bet the Ferarri that won T1 had set up like that.

I watched the world Rally race from Finland or Norway last night. Sebastian Loeb beat all the Norse drivers in his Citroen. They have in car video of a lot of drivers. They could really use paddle shifters(like in F1). Their hands are so busy on the wheel that paddle shifters would really come in handy.

[GKR_17]

That transmission was not available on the Z4 variant that's listed in ITR.

Are you sure?

I see two 2003, and two 2004 2.5 liter Z4's with SMG listed for sale on autotrader right now.

[JoshS]

I watched the world Rally race from Finland or Norway last night. Sebastian Loeb beat all the Norse drivers in his Citroen. They have in car video of a lot of drivers. They could really use paddle shifters(like in F1). Their hands are so busy on the wheel that paddle shifters would really come in handy.

I watched the same broadcast. They already have paddle shifters in almost all the cars. The big lever you see in the center is a manual handbrake.

[JoshS]

Are you sure?

I see two 2003, and two 2004 2.5 liter Z4's with SMG listed for sale on autotrader right now.

I just confirmed it, I was wrong, you are right. I thought they were only available with the 3.0.

It was a fairly lousy implementation, not as good as the M3, but you're right, it was available and would (IMHO) be legal in ITR.

[Knestis]

I think it's just tradition.... sports cars don't have autos, and when created, nobody would dream of a sports car you don't shift yourself! ...

That's consistent with my perception from the olden days of IT but I can't tell you for sure where it came from.

K

[StephenB]

How about the Audi DSG transmission?

[RedMisted]

I know that automatics are not allowed in IT and that currently we don't have cars classified with Paddle shifters however does anyone know if they have spoken about or requested? More and more newer performance cars are coming with them. Do they allow them in T1 or T2?

Stephen


Oh God, please no....Do we need to classify "dumb cars" so that any uncoordinated idiot can drive a race car and maybe cause a dangerous situation on track???
There are enough racers out there that shouldn't be racing, and chances are if you are a racer yourself, you know of one or two of them...
Let's not further dilute the talent pool!

[StephenB]

I didn't realize that most professional race cars are "dumb cars"

[JoshS]

How about the Audi DSG transmission?

Seems legal in principle, but what 2005 and older non-turbo cars had a DSG transmission?

[StephenB]

Josh,

The Audi TT... old ITB Coupe to the new ITR coupe :)
Same car I mentioned on the AWD link just didn't post the type of car. 2004 and 2005 is the same car and has the specs with a DSG tranny. Not sure what the MK2 specs are but I think one of the last few years they made a 6 speed...

Stephen

[RedMisted]

I didn't realize that most professional race cars are "dumb cars"

I doubt there are any pro drivers alive that earned their place at the top of the sport by apprenticing in cars other than those of the old-fashioned stick-and-clutch variety.

[StephenB]

Chris... seriously? I think that this may be true for the US and our roundy round culture like Nascar but I bet any F1, ALMS, WRC, ect, ect, ect, ect, drivers have not driven a racecar with a third pedal in a several years! I think paddle shifters have proven to be faster and more reliable in most of those high level racing series.

If you are talking about a normal everyday automatic then we are on the same page, personally I think you loose lots of car control with your regular old fashioned Automatic 3 speed!

Stephen

[Kai Noeske]

Here is an interesting video on that topic ... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-iNbHhbfcE



Cross-posted from another forum. I _had_ to!!!

EDIT: changed to new video URL.

[RedMisted]

Chris... seriously? I think that this may be true for the US and our roundy round culture like Nascar but I bet any F1, ALMS, WRC, ect, ect, ect, ect, drivers have not driven a racecar with a third pedal in a several years! I think paddle shifters have proven to be faster and more reliable in most of those high level racing series.

If you are talking about a normal everyday automatic then we are on the same page, personally I think you loose lots of car control with your regular old fashioned Automatic 3 speed!

Stephen

I agree that the top foreigners have not seen the clutch pedal in a while, but they probably had to drive machinery with traditional transmission/drivetrain layouts back in their formative years.

No doubt that the more sophisticated systems are way better in terms of performance and reliability. My whole point was that the traditional systems require a bit more driver involvement, that's all.

Call me a purist, but I will always prefer dancing with the pedals. I do accept that SCCA club racing is going to have to include paddle-shifters on a wholesale basis, because in the future, that's all that car manufacturers are going to be making.

[BruceG]

I agree that the top foreigners have not seen the clutch pedal in a while, but they probably had to drive machinery with traditional transmission/drivetrain layouts back in their formative years.

No doubt that the more sophisticated systems are way better in terms of performance and reliability. My whole point was that the traditional systems require a bit more driver involvement, that's all.

Call me a purist, but I will always prefer dancing with the pedals. I do accept that SCCA club racing is going to have to include paddle-shifters on a wholesale basis, because in the future, that's all that car manufacturers are going to be making.

Chris....IMHO, so much safer with the new paddle shifters. faster to shift and one never has to take one's hands or eyes off the road. I recently drove a new 2010 Subaru Outback with a 6spd manual and a new CVT autotransmission with paddle shifters. The auto gave great,crisp shifts, nice downshifts and very quick!

[GKR_17]

...and a new CVT autotransmission with paddle shifters. The auto gave great,crisp shifts, nice downshifts and very quick!

I'm not familiar with that particular model, but by definition a CVT does not shift gears.

[RSTPerformance]

Greatest Video ever!

Thanks for posting!

Raymond

[BruceG]

I'm not familiar with that particular model, but by definition a CVT does not shift gears.

CVT's usually(or always?) run off a belt but as long as they shift gears, who cares?....LOL

[vr6guy]

I think all the advancements of technologies with transmissions is great. With that said i think some of those advancements should'nt be allowed in the IT racing world. We have to remember that this is entry level racing. Theres already alot of argument about where cars belong in the classes, and what they should be allowed as far as weight is concerned, etc etc. Just imagine what will happen if we allow these different transmissions into the mix.

take it easy on me, its just an opinion and one way to look at it.......

Marc

[BruceG]

I think all the advancements of technologies with transmissions is great. With that said i think some of those advancements should'nt be allowed in the IT racing world. We have to remember that this is entry level racing. Theres already alot of argument about where cars belong in the classes, and what they should be allowed as far as weight is concerned, etc etc. Just imagine what will happen if we allow these different transmissions into the mix.

take it easy on me, its just an opinion and one way to look at it.......

Marc MArc...I respect your opinion but wouldn't you like to race a Golf with VW's sequential auto box in it? Leave your hands free for steering and wave at the crowd on your victory lap.....LOL. Seriously, thought we shouldn't let any of our classes get to the point of technical stagnation that Formula VEE is at right now.

[frnkhous]

MArc...I respect your opinion but wouldn't you like to race a Golf with VW's sequential auto box in it? Leave your hands free for steering and wave at the crowd on your victory lap.....LOL. Seriously, thought we shouldn't let any of our classes get to the point of technical stagnation that Formula VEE is at right now.


While I agree about technical stagnation, at this point none of the cvt's i'm aware of would be wise choices to allow into IT, possibly any place in club racing. They are fragile at best, and many of them won't even provide 100k mile service in hands of the avg. driver on the street. Add in super sticky tires, power modifications, and reprogramed computer control of the transmission to try and take advantage of the shiftless always in the peak power range nature that cvt's have and they have no place in club racing as they sit. Certainly not IT, do you wanna have cars that need 5k dollar trannies replaced everyweekend? Oh, nevermind the fact that in a place like IT you could add to that the cost of a diff and installing it, Plus flushing the multiple coolers everytime you broke one of these transmissions. Allowing things like BMW's smg, Toyota's hydraulically controlled manual transmission that was used in atleast the mr-s, and others is one thing. CVT's are an entirely different creature. Honestly i'm not sure either has a place in IT yet. I don't know if they still do but 6-8 years ago wrc teams had to replace the hydraulically controled transmissions at almost ever service stop. They had to be specially built and the computer programmed for the expected temperatures. While obviously the street systems are better, I still feel that in a racing setting where you would be looking to speed up shifts, slip clutches more on launches, etc. Problems and very much accelerated wear likely make them a few years off from making sense. As long as most cars are still available with a standard manual transmission that makes a lot of sense for classes like IT to leave that part of the rulebook alone.

Brian

[lawtonglenn]

.

Not understanding how you could shift a CVT, I looked it up on Subaru's page, where they describe it as "virtual" shifting:

"The Subaru Lineartronic CVT features a manual mode system that simulates a six-speed manual transmission. When in this “virtual” manual mode, the driver can use paddle levers on the steering wheel to select one of six programmed “speeds.” These six speeds are ratios intended for various driving conditions.Shifting to a lower ratio is accomplished by tapping the downshift when the vehicle is in “Drive.” The manual downshift holds the chosen ratio until the engine’s rev limit is reached."


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[QUOTE=frnkhous;297673]...none of the cvt's i'm aware of would be wise choices to allow into IT, possibly any place in club racing. .../QUOTE]



food for thought from F500.org:

"Formula 500 (F500) is a Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) open wheel road racing class.

Formula 500 was originally introduced in the early 1980s as Formula 440 (F440). Formula 500 is a spec class in the sense that the engine, drivetrain, and shock absorbers are all tightly regulated, but the chassis, bodywork and other car parts are free for designers to experiment with within dimensional and structural limits. These regulations allow for very competitive racing at a relatively low cost which rewards driver and car set-up skill.

What kind of transmission is in a F500?

F500 uses an advanced Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), similar to that used in F1 racing snowmobiles. These advanced belt driven automatic transmissions are tuned to optimize the power curve of a two stroke engine, constantly keeping the engine at its peak power. One of the key benefits of the CVT is that it is a stepless transmission. This allows all of the engine's power to be transmitted to the drive wheels at all times."

.

[StephenB]

As long as most cars are still available with a standard manual transmission that makes a lot of sense for classes like IT to leave that part of the rulebook alone.

Brian

Yup this was my dilema... I would like to build a TT but they didn't come out with a manual until last year :( Way out of my budget for now! Figured I would throw out the question and let if flow from their. After more research and speaking to a few knowledgeable people you cannot do any large HP gains with the CVT system because it messes up the information leading to the transmission as far as peak HP, REv limit, and other concerns and supposedly the transmission, as it is, is at max capacity and would cost more to upgrade than the donor car...

Stephen

[JoshS]

.

Not understanding how you could shift a CVT, I looked it up on Subaru's page, where they describe it as "virtual" shifting:

"The Subaru Lineartronic CVT features a manual mode system that simulates a six-speed manual transmission. When in this “virtual” manual mode, the driver can use paddle levers on the steering wheel to select one of six programmed “speeds.” These six speeds are ratios intended for various driving conditions.Shifting to a lower ratio is accomplished by tapping the downshift when the vehicle is in “Drive.” The manual downshift holds the chosen ratio until the engine’s rev limit is reached."

My wife's 2002 Audi A4 has a CVT (Audi calls it "multitronic") with the same sort of manual mode -- just 6 pre-chosen fixed ratios that you can shift like any other auto-manual box.

The CVT works great. I wish it had a "race mode" though where it would just get the engine to the peak HP point and just stay there.

BTW, it also has a conventional dry clutch just like a manual transmission -- no torque converter. The clutch is actuated hydraulically by the transmission's computer instead of a clutch pedal.