View Full Version : Scca Itr Vs Jp Bmw Club Racing Car
I wanted to let some of you who are interested what point out the between these 2 cars and classes are. It will be easiest to just show what the BMW JP cars are allowed that the SCCA ITR cars are not.
Cams
upgrade front and rear brakes to 4 piston calipers
Wings
Valve springs, keepers, etc. are open
Just to name a few things. A true built JP E36 325, 328, Z3 and/ or E30 M3 will NOT be legal in SCCA ITR.
I now return you to your normally scheduled programming.....
Knestis
09-30-2009, 12:29 PM
Sorry - why was there any question about any of this...?
K
Ron Earp
09-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Probably need to point this out on the BMW forums. I've communicated with a couple of BMW club racers who think their JP cars is ITS and ITR legal. And theirs might be legal in ITS or ITR, if it isn't competitive in JP and is using the stock cams.
There should not be any questions from ITB people. :~)
"I've communicated with a couple of BMW club racers who think their JP cars is ITS and ITR legal. And theirs might be legal in ITS or ITR, if it isn't competitive in JP and is using the stock cams."
Ron, you are correct, I know of one Legal ITR car who races in JP class. He can't beat the front runing JP cars but is very competitive only because he is a good driver.
robits325is
09-30-2009, 12:56 PM
I think I know what he is implying.
I think I know what he is implying.
Yep Rob, any JP car that the shoe fits. ;)
robits325is
09-30-2009, 01:03 PM
I can think of one.....
Doc Bro
09-30-2009, 02:05 PM
Yup,
Got really whooped by that one recently. Gorgeous car though...
R
NORRIS
09-30-2009, 03:39 PM
Hey Dan.
Are there any items that are ITR legal but not JP legal?
What is the difference in weights?
How about suspension prep?
Does anyone have any lap time comparisons?
Hey Dan.
Are there any items that are ITR legal but not JP legal?
What is the difference in weights?
How about suspension prep?
Does anyone have any lap time comparisons?
Hey Norris, how goes it out west? :)
I can answer a couple of your questions with out any research.
ITR is completely legal to run in JP class @ 2765#.
I'll double check on the weight unless someone else can answer that question.
I'm not certain about the suspension. I read the rule book but forgot.:)
At Summit Point, WVa., a JP car is about 1 to 1.5 sec faster on the 2 mile course. There is a link to a video that actually shows the difference between a JP 325 and a legal ITR car. search itr vs jp.
I copied this from the bmw rule book, just a few. :~)
a. Suspension components that control rear camber may be replaced with aftermarket components to provide this adjustment.
5. Suspension bushing material is free.
a. Bushing material does not include replacement of bushings with spherical bearings or rod ends such as Heim ends except as noted in F below.
b. Solid bushings are allowed if fixed in place and allow rotation in a single plane or axis.
6. Spherical bearings are permitted in the following components.
a. Front upper strut mounts.
b. Upper and lower rear shock mounts.
c. Rear lower control arms.
d. Camber plates.
Rotors are free (except carbon rotors are not allowed). The rotors must fit within wheels that comply with paragraph 3.A, above.
2. Calipers are free with the following limitations: 4 piston maximum, 2-piece design, 1 caliper per wheel.
3. The number of master cylinders must be as supplied by the factory, except that early production cars (i.e. 1600, 1800 and 2002) may update to tandem master cylinder for the safety of the dual circuit system.
4. Master cylinders may be modified to increase volumetric flow.
lateapex911
09-30-2009, 04:13 PM
I can think of one.....
I know that car, he made some $ recently, right?
I know that car, he made some $ recently, right?
Yea, without beating around the bush, it's Bill Ball's E30 M3. If it's a built JP car it is not legal in ITR. I think it's suspect to everyone.
lateapex911
09-30-2009, 04:49 PM
Man, he's gott a lot of balls! (Sorry, couldn't resist a lame ball joke)
Knestis
09-30-2009, 05:45 PM
There should not be any questions from ITB people. :~) ...
Ooooh, sorry! I didn't know it was super-secret expensive real racey car stuff. I'll go back to the Taco Bell parking lot with the rest of the kids.
:happy204:
K
JoshS
09-30-2009, 05:54 PM
Hey Norris, how goes it out west? :)
I can answer a couple of your questions with out any research.
ITR is completely legal to run in JP class @ 2765#.
Not anymore. First of all, you're talking about an E36 325i (you know there are other ITR and JP BMWs, right?)
Second of all, starting in '09, SCCA IT crossover cars have to run in their SCCA class, not in their equivalent Prepared class. So an ITS car would run as "ITS", not "JP."
Unless, of course, it's really fully legal for JP. Note that an IT car can have spherical bushings in places that aren't legal in JP. Don't know if YOU do or not. I did until just recently.
Ooooh, sorry! I didn't know it was super-secret expensive real racey car stuff. I'll go back to the Taco Bell parking lot with the rest of the kids.
:happy204:
K
LOL K!
Just bustin your chops. I'm sure by now you know what's going on. :)
Z3_GoCar
09-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Not anymore. First of all, you're talking about an E36 325i (you know there are other ITR and JP BMWs, right?)
Second of all, starting in '09, SCCA IT crossover cars have to run in their SCCA class, not in their equivalent Prepared class. So an ITS car would run as "ITS", not "JP."
Unless, of course, it's really fully legal for JP. Note that an IT car can have spherical bushings in places that aren't legal in JP. Don't know if YOU do or not. I did until just recently.
Another IT legal mod that's not JP legal is an aftermarket ECU, the JP guys have to reflash the stock Seimens unit, or if it's an e-36 325 can swap back to OBD I ( note all of us Z people have to stick with OBD II )
Another IT legal mod that's not JP legal is an aftermarket ECU, the JP guys have to reflash the stock Seimens unit, or if it's an e-36 325 can swap back to OBD I ( note all of us Z people have to stick with OBD II )
We're not talking about the little stuff. I'm talking about the kind of stuff that would let a JP E30 M3 pull a full built E36 326 by 10 cars on the straights. No way is this going to happen with a legal built E30 M3. Not even if the driver is Hans Stuck.:)
benspeed
10-01-2009, 09:06 AM
I admit that I was pretty impressed with the speed of Ball's car so when I saw the JP stickers on the car I was concerned. Bill Ball the owner said it was built to the max over many years. I would expect a built to the max car would be taking advantage of all that can be done under JP rules. I plan on visiting the gentleman to request a look at his ride, hopefully with a BMW expert with me. I will have the JP rules in my pocket. I have discussed this with at least one club official.
Doc Bro
10-01-2009, 10:05 AM
Yeah Ben,
I talked to him after last race and just said (tongue in cheek) "That track record will stand for a long time." I don't think he got what I was saying. I knew that the car was fast before last NJMP even happened. When I saw him signed up I checked the BMWCCA Club racing section of my last couple of Roundels and saw he was a JP winner at some events. There goes that. Fortunately for me he spun with 2 turns to go and handed me the win.....sometimes it's better to be lucky than good:happy204:
R
hondaman321
10-01-2009, 06:09 PM
Every car has parts that are not legal. I could come and find parts that are not legel in doc bro's car and dan jones car. For dan to start this thread is crazy. His car is extremely fast, to fast. Some people buy or have cars built and do not realize they are not legal, however Dan claims to do work on his car himself. While all the cars down south are not legal, I would assume dans is not if he can compete with them. Whats your opinion?????
JLawton
10-01-2009, 06:22 PM
Ewwwww Gotta love those anonymous first posts!!!
Ron Earp
10-01-2009, 06:29 PM
While all the cars down south are not legal, I would assume dans is not if he can compete with them. Whats your opinion?????
That you're a one post wonder troll?
Every car has parts that are not legal. I could come and find parts that are not legel in doc bro's car and dan jones car. For dan to start this thread is crazy. His car is extremely fast, to fast. Some people buy or have cars built and do not realize they are not legal, however Dan claims to do work on his car himself. While all the cars down south are not legal, I would assume dans is not if he can compete with them. Whats your opinion?????
Thank you, I take this as a compliment. :) My car is as open for inspection anytime anywhere. If you want to protest me please bring cash cause I don't accept American Express.:) I'll also be happy to give you Chuck Stickley's phone number since he built the engine and I asked for a full build LEGAL SCCA IT engine. Stickley's engines have passed tear downs at ARRC. I try and do things and deal with people as honestly as I possibly can all the time. I do all of the normal maintance myself but Jim Locke prepares the suspension and does the larger repairs. I only give him feed back so he can setup the car. Just remember, it takes a car and a driver to be fast.
hondaman321, who ever you are, your invited to my paddock area anytime your around.
Again, thank you for the compliment, it is appreciated.
Z3_GoCar
10-01-2009, 08:00 PM
I wanted to let some of you who are interested what point out the between these 2 cars and classes are. It will be easiest to just show what the BMW JP cars are allowed that the SCCA ITR cars are not.
Cams
upgrade front and rear brakes to 4 piston calipers
Wings
Valve springs, keepers, etc. are open
Just to name a few things. A true built JP E36 325, 328, Z3 and/ or E30 M3 will NOT be legal in SCCA ITR.
I now return you to your normally scheduled programming.....
We're not talking about the little stuff. I'm talking about the kind of stuff that would let a JP E30 M3 pull a full built E36 326 by 10 cars on the straights. No way is this going to happen with a legal built E30 M3. Not even if the driver is Hans Stuck.:)
Oh, like the valve springs and keepers aren't little :p If you're looking for a major modification that'll pull 10 car lengths try a light weight aluminum flywheel. BTW, a new stock dual-mass is $647 from Pelican compared to a new aluminum is ~$400:blink:
hondaman321
10-01-2009, 11:13 PM
I am not saying you and only you. Lots of cars are not legal. You def do not have stock valve springs, and when your car idles and sounds like the compression is way to high? I have seen stickley motors in the past that have switched hands and then torn down and has illegal parts in them, keepers, retainers, springs. Lets not get started. The fact is IT is getting like world challenge was when turner race it a couple years ago. Everyone cheated and you could not win if you were not cheating. Also I have watched your car in some corners. You can not be that fast when the car handles that bad. I am sorry, it goes for alot of cars out there.
Thanks,
Biff
I am not saying you and only you. Lots of cars are not legal. You def do not have stock valve springs, and when your car idles and sounds like the compression is way to high? I have seen stickley motors in the past that have switched hands and then torn down and has illegal parts in them, keepers, retainers, springs. Lets not get started. The fact is IT is getting like world challenge was when turner race it a couple years ago. Everyone cheated and you could not win if you were not cheating. Also I have watched your car in some corners. You can not be that fast when the car handles that bad. I am sorry, it goes for alot of cars out there.
Thanks,
Biff
Biff,
I can't speak for ever ITR car out there, but I can speak for my car. I will say that everything in my head, cams, springs, retainers and valves are totally stock and I can run 93 octane in my engine. You couldn't do that if your compression is high. Your the only person who has ever said that my car looks like it handles badly.:) I have had many people come up to me and say how good the car looks through turns. I'd rather get a 2nd place finish and be legal than to win a race and know I was illegal. If you believe me or not, I can't help that. All I can do is tell you the truth.
benspeed
10-02-2009, 08:59 AM
The way Dan handled those lame allegations should be the way Bill Ball handles being inquired upon. Nobody is saying Bill is a cheater. He should be willing to jack up the car, especially if he shows up running stickers from another series that allows greater performance mods.
gpeluso
10-02-2009, 10:08 AM
Whoever said Dan's car handles badly is nutzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... Dan takes pride in dialing his car in........I have seen him try many spring, shock, ride height adjustments. I would like to see his data compared to others in corners. He or his car is no dog in any corner. For you to say he is only fast because of his motor is ignorant and if he is cheating put up the cash and tear him down... bet he won't care. I remember when he did have a junkyard engine and crap suspension in ITS and guess what...... he still found ways to win. I wish I could have seen him run 20 yrs ago.... btw Dan, you are no spring chicken!
Greg
"Dan, you are no spring chicken!
Greg"
I'm not!!! Damn ever since Doc put 4 stents in my heart I feel like one. :~)
hondaman321
10-02-2009, 10:32 AM
for arguments sake, you are correct. I do not drive, I have worked with scca for many years and get annoyed at post like this. I understand I come off as an asshole, however facts are facts. Last year at watkins glenn. A car in ITR (red bmw) not dan jones is known to have cams or at least I know it has large cams(very large). Dans car pulled this other itr bmw 8-10 cars down the straight aways. I do not care about his exit speed coming out of the corner compared to the other car, it was not that much different to pull 10 cars. Its like saying you have a legal sunbelt motor(when they were still around) and all they did was put gigantic cams in a built motor and shipped it. Come on. I have worked at enough places to sit at a track and realize which cars are legal and which are not. Today barely any are, E36's in the northeast had been legal in 2003-2004, however all the ones down south caused this ITR class. You can see that cars that are legal in ITR still compete with ITS because they should still be in that class. It was for all the people down south that had all the illegal parts and caused this mess. So anyway overall everyone cheats, if you are not thats great. But dont tell me you have a junkyard motor or a built legal motor and then pull 10 cars on a similar car that is known to be legally built.
Thanks,
Biff
Biff, I guess there is no way I can convince you that I'm legal. If your around when I'm racing please come over and at least say hi and look the car over. I carry my dyno sheets with me. I have no idea of the race you talked about and surely didn't know anything about the other illegal BMW you wrote of. Maybe his car wasn't running right? Who knows. All I will say that the people that I've raced against a lot know I am a man of my word and the duty, honor and intergity means something to me.
BTW Biff, Thanks for all your work with the SCCA.
Ron Earp
10-02-2009, 11:13 AM
f Today barely any are, E36's in the northeast had been legal in 2003-2004, however all the ones down south caused this ITR class. You can see that cars that are legal in ITR still compete with ITS because they should still be in that class. It was for all the people down south that had all the illegal parts and caused this mess.
No Biff, not everyone all over cheats and cheating isn't unique to "the South".
And as far as the ITR "mess", you are flat out wrong. ITR was definitely a needed class. You can't stuff 240hp stock cars into ITS and not have the weights be so high as to make the car completely unusable.
hondaman321
10-02-2009, 11:57 AM
ron i agree, ITR is a great class for other cars, however the e36 fully built to the rules will have a tough time beating an its e46 323 or an its rx7 or an itr 968 or an itr integra. e36's fit in ITS until everyone down south starting cheating. Its not a myth, it is true. I have seen 8-10 cars sold and then motors rebuilt from the south and not one(not one at all) was legal.
Eagle7
10-02-2009, 11:58 AM
Biff, I guess there is no way I can convince you that I'm legal. If your around when I'm racing please come over and at least say hi and look the car over. I carry my dyno sheets with me. I have no idea of the race you talked about and surely didn't know anything about the other illegal BMW you wrote of. Maybe his car wasn't running right? Who knows. All I will say that the people that I've raced against a lot know I am a man of my word and the duty, honor and intergity means something to me.
BTW Biff, Thanks for all your work with the SCCA.
Dan, I don't know you from Adam (except on this forum), but your responses to Biff show me you're a real class act. :happy204:Keep up the good work.
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