and it’s all bullshit………

[dj10]

I’m concerned how some the SCCA, regions are now making money, and I think you should be too…. I call it a “you snooze you lose penalty”. For some reason just like fine print from credit card companies, hotels now putting a non-cancellation fee on their online websites and other businesses that deal with sleazy penalty clauses. If you cancel after a certain date you get smacked with a $50.00 penalty! Why is that? Don’t tell me that a stamp and an envelope cost $50.00! Isn’t it enough that you can make the race probably because your car isn’t working right, a part broke, someone working on your car couldn’t get it finished in time or a 100 other valid and real life reasons? But NO, the SCCA regions like the Cincinnati Region & others have to kick you when you’re down. You bust your ass to get everything ready and safe but sometimes, things just don’t work correctly. It’s not like racecars can be taken out on the street and tested. Sometimes they can but you really need to test the cars under full loads to see if anything fails or works correctly, which can’t be accomplished on the street. When you think about it, you have to ask, what did they do for your $50.00 or what ever they charge for that fee? If you didn’t sign up for the event they would not have gotten a dime. Is this an ethical way to gain extra money but beating someone out of money who already feels badly about missing a race, or has to possibly spend a lot of extra money to fix something that has broke? Well my racing friends…….it’s all bullshit and we are the club and he shouldn’t and can’t let this keep happening. If this happens with an event it time to boycott that event & region in the future! By using this scheme to gain extra money the IT SPEC-tacular has diminished its self to just a substandard club race and they lost a customer. To add insult to injury I bet the money doesn’t even go to the workers. This is about principal. It’s all bullshit and it’s bad for ya.

[Greg Amy]

Amen, brother. I've made that similar rant, and since then pretty much decided that any region that requires pre-payment for an event will be forced to handle a write-in entry, will get a personal check at the gate, and the registrar will have to deal with all its associated hassles and efforts, and I'll pay the "late fee" instead. - GA

[joeg]

Come on guys...it's our Club and many regions are hurting on account of lower car counts because of the economy over the last year and a half.

The regions don't get a discount or rebate from the track rentals due to smaller than anticipated turn-outs. You shouldn't grumble about such penalties.

[Greg Amy]

Come on guys...it's our Club and many regions are hurting on account of lower car counts because of the economy over the last year and a half.
If that's the case then be honest about it and raise the entry fee.

[dj10]

Come on guys...it's our Club and many regions are hurting on account of lower car counts because of the economy over the last year and a half.

The regions don't get a discount or rebate from the track rentals due to smaller than anticipated turn-outs. You shouldn't grumble about such penalties.

Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit!!!!! I don't need penalized becuase I have a GD problem with my car. So what yor saying is that these regions count on these penalties just to survive!!!!!!!!!????????

WE ARE THE CLUB AND THE CLUB IS US!!!!! "THE TIME IS RIGHT FOR VILOENT REVOLUTION":cool:

[dj10]

If that's the case then be honest about it and raise the entry fee.

:happy204: touche`

[mc-integra111]

I have only been to a sum total of 2 SCCA races ever, but I didn't even realize this. I checked the old entry for the race I entered this year, and sure enough they would charge you a late fee if you didn't pay early, and a cancellation fee if you had to cancel late. That indeed kinda sucks. I guess I did my best not to sign up (pay) until the last possible minute so I knew my car was fine (assuming it left the last race intact, it should make the next).

This seems like a good thread to offer an alternative. If you are in the Midwest (I know that is a big caveat as guys are on this forum from all over the place), then come race at some Midwestern Council events. They encourage everyone to sign up online early for no fee. Then, simply bring your checkbook (or cash) to the track when you arrive and pay the normal entry fee. No late fee bull shit as long as you signed up early. You can always remove yourself from the online sign up at any time. Hell, if you don't remove yourself and just don't show up, they don't care.

[erlrich]

I can top that Dan - in the DC Region this year, if you don't cancel by noon of the first business day after the event you forfeit ALL of your entry fee. This is the same region that requires you to pay in advance, and bills your credit/debit card immediately or cashes your check upon receipt. And they wonder why so many drivers wait so long to register. Now, I understand the rationale behind wanting to get drivers to register early, but I think some of our regional execs are trying to run the events more like a for-profit business than as a club event.

There are many things I like about our region, but there sure are some I really don't.

[pitbull113]

Being charged for cancelling is complete bullshitness

[chuck baader]

You want a place to race? Then go sit on a race board meeting and try to decide whether or not the region can afford the $34000+ total for two days racing. The quit your bitching and be glad you have a place to race. Chuck

[dj10]

I can top that Dan - in the DC Region this year, if you don't cancel by noon of the first business day after the event you forfeit ALL of your entry fee. This is the same region that requires you to pay in advance, and bills your credit/debit card immediately or cashes your check upon receipt. And they wonder why so many drivers wait so long to register. Now, I understand the rationale behind wanting to get drivers to register early, but I think some of our regional execs are trying to run the events more like a for-profit business than as a club event.

There are many things I like about our region, but there sure are some I really don't.

Earl,
Your a member of that region and club, they are suppose to work for you. VOTE SOME PEOPLE OUT AND GET IT CHANGED! Penelties are something you get when you do something wrong. Cancelling an event due to a good reason is not doing something wrong. As a matter of fact if your car is down or not safe for some reason your getting penalized for doing something RIGHT!

[gran racing]

You guys are too funny. Here I am psyched that I don't need to sign-up for the years events waaaay in advance (late winter or early Spring), pay for the events, and not be able to cancel. That's basically how many HPDE organizations work. Listen, if you intend on going to an event register for it. If you can't make it, send in your cancelation on time. It's really not that difficult guys. Or if you truly want to change things, take over many of the registration duties. Heck, for many events and regions is you have a legitimate reason and approach it right, maybe they won't even charge you the justified fee that's listed. I totally forgot to send in a refund notice, sent them an e-mail with an apology and "I screwed up" - no late fee was charged.

Steve, you're not charged if you cancel. You're charged if you can't take the couple of minutes and notify the region you weren't able to attend the event. Is it really that hard?

This thread does have an appropriate title, but not for the same reason.

[Greg Amy]

That's basically how many HPDE organizations work.
Funny you should mention that; it was because of entry/payment/cancellation policies like that, plus the inflexibility of being able to get into and out of events, that was a driving force for me rethinking that whole "HPDE thing" in the late 90's and deciding to go back to Club Racing again...

[pitbull113]

Down here in florida if you sign up early and mail your check they 1) don't cash your check until the event has been run. 2) if you don't show or do show and your car does not make it on the track they shred your check or return it. if you pay with a credit card your card gets credited.

The event was going to be held regardless of whether i signed up or not no reason to keep my money if i can't make the race.

[StephenB]

I say BULL SHIT as well :happy204:

It's simply NOT right to charge the fee when we are all racing on a budget and the event will go on regardless if I show or not. Luckely I am part of NER... they truelly take the extra steps for the racer and I don't ever anticipate fees like this!

If I were you I would get a petition together at the next event, get on the next board meeting agenda and then show them that the club THEY ARE REPRESENTING do not want it. I also agree with what someone else said... get vocal and change the administration that is running your region.

Anyone that agrees with this cancelation fee should think about this scenario... YOU get a broken wheel bearing on your trailer on your way to YOUR next event, have to find a shady hotel to stay the night in the middle of no-where then get it fixed all to miss the event drive home and get YOUR $50 cancelation fee for not showing and calling the day of the event to cancel. I hope karma doesn't get me this weekend :blink:

I agree these rediculous fees add an anchor to the heal of the honest ones who are already drowning!

Stephen

[RexRacer19]

I think it is BS - that people can not plan ahead and have their car prep done before the deadline along with having other afairs in order that would keep them from racing. I realize that there are always exceptions, but the club realizes that sometimes people are flakey "looks like rain this weekend...guess I will stay at home."

Late fees and cancellation fees are part of the game just like renewing your license. You make sure things happen to have the outcome favorable.

[gran racing]

Anyone that agrees with this cancelation fee should think about this scenario... YOU get a broken wheel bearing on your trailer on your way to YOUR next event, have to find a shady hotel to stay the night in the middle of no-where then get it fixed all to miss the event drive home and get YOUR $50 cancelation fee for not showing and calling the day of the event to cancel.

Stephen – even in the scenario that Dan’s talking about, all you’d need to do is contact the region and request a refund. Nothing was said how long you have to do that. To be sure you don’t forget, do it when you get home that evening or the next day.


If you cancel after a certain date…Dan

I can’t believe that some of you actually find this so unreasonable. Should regions hold money aside and wait for you to submit a refund request months after the event? Come on.


the SCCA regions like the Cincinnati Region & others have to kick you when you’re down.

I’ve only raced with the Cincy region a couple of times but will say for the events I’ve been to they are one of the most accommodating, helpful, and thought out race weekends I’ve attended.

People who are organizing these events do so on a volunteer basis. Are you truly so selfish to not comply with a few reasonable expectations to make their jobs easier? It’s not an us versus them thing and we should be working together to ensure our Club runs smoothly.

[dj10]

I think it is BS - that people can not plan ahead and have their car prep done before the deadline along with having other afairs in order that would keep them from racing. I realize that there are always exceptions, but the club realizes that sometimes people are flakey "looks like rain this weekend...guess I will stay at home."

Late fees and cancellation fees are part of the game just like renewing your license. You make sure things happen to have the outcome favorable.

You don't get plealized not renewing my license late, do you? Remember what you wrote here when you have an emergency and can't make a race that you entered and get slammed with a penelty on top of the emergency! Late fees and cancellation fess are not part of good business!!!!!!! As I said bullshit!!!!!

[BruceG]

Yeah, well The NY Region isn't as nice as our NER. Just registered online for the OCT 2/3 NARRC runoffs and they have the $50 penalty fee listed...LOL

[BruceG]

Also....show of hands. How many of you will not race in a region that applies the $50 fee? None...I thought so...LOL

[Greg Amy]

I can’t believe that some of you actually find this so unreasonable. Should regions hold money aside and wait for you to submit a refund request months after the event? Come on.
Care to clarify, Dave? My impression - and my beef with the system - is hitting you up for money up front then charnging you a cancellation fee if you cancel before the event (or within a reasonable time after the event).

If you are saying you can get 100% refund if you cancel your entry within 7-10 days (or whatever) after the event (though I always contact the registrar immediately afterward - if not before - and I prefer the "enter online and pay at the track" options) then I agree with you. With rare exception, if an event requires a pay-in-advance with an online pre-entry then I will almost always enter at the track and pay the late fee.

Please clarify, Dan and Dave. - GA

[gran racing]

My impression - and my beef with the system - is hitting you up for money up front then charnging you a cancellation fee if you cancel before the event (or within a reasonable time after the event).

I've never seen this be the case including the IT Fest. In fact, the Cincy region even agreed to waive the late entry fee. If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.

[callard]

Just another point to consider....The DC Region provides meals for you and your crew on Saturday as part of your entry fee. Negotiations with the caterer are made well in advance of the race for a headcount of XXX. Last minute additions are at a differrent rate. Cancellation of your entry doesn't change what the caterer is paid for the left over meals.
Regards,
Chuck

[Bill Miller]

Hey Chuck, save me the $20, $30, $40, $50, ??? off my entry fee, as I always brought food and beer for myself and my crew.

[mc-integra111]

If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.

I read the entry for the RA race I attended earlier this year again. The cancellation date was the Wed before the event. Any cancellation after that would be charged $25 (refund amount would be $25 less than the entry).

I think that is a fair date for circumstances that are the choice of the entrant (something came up, family obligations, looks like rain (pussies), etc.). However, this gives no wiggle room for circumstances beyond the control of the entrant (trailer breaks on the way to the track, a dump truck runs over your tow vehicle on the way, etc.).

Judge for yourself. I still like the pre-register online, pay at the track when you arrive.

[erlrich]

If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.

I thought that was what we were talking about? Dan's original post was referring to a cancellation fee. In the DC Region it works this way - you have up until 9pm Friday before the event to withdraw with no penalty; if you cancel after Friday evening you pay a $50 fee unless you come to the track, register, and then withdraw. If you haven't withdrawn by noon the first business day after the event you forfeit your entire entry fee.

Chuck, yes I understand what you're saying, but if our region is paying $50 per person for those meals we're getting screwed royally. This is a penalty, plain and simple. The registration/withdrawl is all done online, so the clerical work (done mostly by volunteers, right?) is minimal...the actual cost to the region for a late withdrawl can't be more than $10, and that is probably a high estimate.

[raffaelli]

My experience with the late fees...

I signed up for an event online, had the check to mail in my car...and there it stayed. I noticed it on my way to the office one day...and after the penalty day. I contacted the registrar and explained that I signed up, check stayed in my car and that I would drive it to the registrars house that night. I was told 'not necessary, just drop it in the mail to me'. I did so.

At the event, I found the registrar in T&S, brought some cookies and complimented the registrar on how great the entry process went in front of all of the registrars friends. I didn’t pay the late fee.


I withdrew from an event at the event. I don't know what the policy was other than I signed a form that said I wasn't on the track and I am bailing out while talking about my overheating sob story. The original check amount, less the worker donation, was sent to me. I didn't pay a late fee.

I suspect that attitude has a lot to do with it.

[Butch Kummer]

I was going to stay out of this because I don't really agree with Late Fees and Cancellation Fees, but we HAVE put them in our Supps (for Atlanta Region events) in the past.

When we first implemented Late Fees (and the language is "MAY be assessed") it was because some folks (the same ones each time) were abusing the system and ALWAYS registering at the track. Not only is this a drain on the Registration and T&S staff, but it also can affect group make-up as well. Quite simply, you registering early gives us more time to plan adequately. I will also note that Atlanta Region does not deposit checks for our Road Atlanta events until after the event is over, so there is no penalty for registering early.

By adding the "may be assessed" language, we give our registrars the authority to "penalize" the jackasses that perpetually show up at the late window demanding that they get special treatment. To date, I'm not sure they've ever done so but at least now they COULD if they feel it's warranted.

For the Barber event we added a $150 Late Cancellation fee for the 2008 event. It rained on Saturday at the 2007 event and we ended up refunding over $10,000 in entry fees from people that were already at the track but decided not to go out in the rain. The feeling was folks might be more reluctant to withdraw if they had skin in the game. For 2009 I reduced that to $50, and even though it rained on Saturday (again) we only had about 30 drivers (of 180) choose not to go out. Hopefully I can convince the PTB to drop it altogether in 2010, but again the idea is to keep folks from deciding to not show up because they suddenly find a need to rearrange their sock drawer.

Again, we don't assess either fee in the case of truly unexpected circumstances - it's really just there to give some leverage against those jackasses that show up with bad attitudes.

[DavidM]

My personal opinion is that if you're at the track and decide not to go out solely because it's raining then you shouldn't get any of your money back. It's understood that we race in the rain. You should show up ready to do so. If you decide not to go out, fine, but I don't think you should expect your money back. Of course, that's hard to determine.

I have no issues with the cancellation penalty. If you can't figure out whether or not you're going to be at the race the Friday before the race and go to the website and withdraw your entry then you should get a penalty. Stuff can always happen on the way to the track or life events can occur and, as has been said, I think if you explain your situation to the registrar you will not get a penalty. If you are just unorganized or lazy then you deserve a penalty.

David

[jhooten]

I don't know how other divisions/regions do it. We (Lone Star) do not charge late fees. We give a discount for early entry.

My take on cancellation fees. If the fees are not listed on the entry forms then they cannot be collected. The fees are listed to discourage entrants from dropping out on a whim at the last minute. However, I do not remember ever being charged a late witdrawal/cancellation fee for any event where I had a valid reason for the withdrawl. BTW, a forecast of rain for the weekend and being to cheap to buy rain tires is not a valid reason in my book.

On our home track we have the option to run several track configurations. If we have enough drivers pre-register we will make sure we have enough workers to run the more desirable long course. Which means we have to put more EVs on the track contract at added cost. etc. so forth and so on. And, Spec Miata, if you don't want to run in the IT group get your entries in early. When the Chief sees a large SM entry list he may not be so quick to combine groups.

Our board meetings are open to the membership. We beg members with ideas on how to make the events better to show up. Do they? NO!

Bitching on a forum is not going to change anything. Don't like the way things are being managed quit whinning, get active, and go run for a position the the board. Then you can bring hope and change to YOUR club and make things run the way you think it should be done.

[pballance]

While I agree that cancellation fees are troubling and I dislike them, I encourage those of you that don't like them to get involved with a racing region and offer to help out with the racing program. I know we could use the help.

That said, we are working NOW for a race to be held June 2010. We will incur expenses prior to June that will need to be paid. We have to decide at what level of participation we can break even and then HOPE that we can get that number of entries in a down economy. Part of that decision is made based upon the numbers of pre-registered entrants. If you have any idea to help us plan the event and gauge how many drivers/cars will show up, I am all ears.

I like the discount for early registration. I also like the fact that we will continue to not cash checks for no-shows but it sure would be nice for them to notify us during normal registration times that they are not coming. Makes run group choices much easier.

As a club and a racing region officer, we have a financial obligation to our members to "break even" on an event. Our BoD has decided that "break even" might mean going in the hole every now and then in order to further the program(s) of the club but we cannot afford a multi thousand dollar loss.

Track rental is high dollar these days and every racing region has felt the pinch of the economy. I have read/heard the number Chuck mentioned above $34,000.00 for the weekend at Barber. I know what our expenses are and how big of a job it is planning to host a race. We will continue to try and host the BEST race we can given the circumstances and will try to control costs as much as we can without penalizing no-show drivers.

Paul

[Gregg]

This is a penalty, plain and simple. The registration/withdrawl is all done online, so the clerical work (done mostly by volunteers, right?) is minimal...the actual cost to the region for a late withdrawl can't be more than $10, and that is probably a high estimate.
I completely agree and have spoken to our R.E. about this extensively. Should he be relelected to the BoD this fall, he has promised to eradicate the these truly punative fees and make registering for WDCR events more customer-friendly.

The region pays a 3% credit card processing fee for each transaction--registration and withdrawal. That's $6.75 per road race registration (far less for solo entries) and $6.75 for each person who withdraws (if they paid by C.C.) Over the course of many road race and auto-x events that the region runs that comes to both a lot of lost good will and a lot of lost revenue each year.

[dj10]

My hats off to all the regions that have come to realize how wrong these penelties are to a already beaten down enterant who much reluctantly withdrew from an event. On the same hand if there are legimate costs associated with the withdrawal I'm hoping that common sense will prevail and the regions should use their discretion to cover their costs. I'm sure I can speak for most everyone in saying the last thing we racers want is to burden our regions or other regions will these costs such as credit card fees. I might even accept a $10.00 to $20.00 donation to their workers fund, as long as it goes to the workers. I don't want to see cancellation fees or penelties.

Thanks for eveyone's opinion. THE SCCA IS US AND WE ARE THE SCCA.

[dickita15]

My region is fairly user friendly about such issues and I will take some credit for that. I have been arguing for less hassles and reduction of silly rules in the supps at road racing board meetings for years and yet there are often people that want to add something like that. We had a proposal for a cancellation fee just this last winter, and it came from people I respect. Fortunately it failed.
The economics of running a race event is very dependent of number of entries. There is a fairly high fixed cost and only a bit of variable cost. A swing of 20 cars can make a pretty big difference in the bottom line. Given that I always figured that as a region you want to be the one that is easy to race with. Even if 10 percent of your driver pool thinks like Dan it can have a big effect on your profitability.
I enter way ahead and pay at the window. If I have to mail a check ahead of time I think twice before I enter that race.

[tom91ita]

the IT Spectacular weekend is one of my favorite races and when i register i understand the rules and the risks. i know that when i have traveled on vacations, i accept the risk on some flight cancellations and book the cheap ones and i have at times bought cancellation insurance for overseas flights.

similarly, i read the policy and decide if the risk is worth it.

not the best analogy but i have had tequila tonight.

anyways, the policies were quite straightforward. my personal M.O. for this is to register on line and send a check in the mail. this way the registration is easier and i know that the check will not be cashed until after the event (at least i have never had a check cashed prior to an event).

i don't like the online credit card payment cause i know the charge is hitting me right then and it is costing the region more than the stamp will cost me.

a few years ago the fort wayne region cancelled a race (brat bash? at Gingerman) due to the low number of entries. there was something like a $5,000 to $7,000 cancellation fee. there was something like less than 10 entries pre-registered. did anyone see if fort wayne had a race this year?

the regions commit a very large sum of money hoping we will be there. fort wayne made a very difficult decision in that they picked the way that was going to cost the region the least amount of money (cancel early or pay the full load and not have the entries to cover it)

i can understand that some would say that you have to err on the side of the customer and some will say the customers should be responsible.

since this year's IT SPECtacular had a $50 late fee after 7/21 and a $50 cancellation fee after 7/29, i really see no difference in "costs" of registering and then a late cancellation vs. paying the late fee at the gate. either way, you are out $50.

personally, since i was committing $150 in fuel to get to and from the track, cancelling and losing the $50 fee would be better than driving to the track and having to cancel.

[dj10]

What really ticked me off was that I used my credit card for and entry fee and and not a fine or penalty! Any region that has to use these tactics instead of charging the appropriate entry fees is not anywhere I want to race no matter how big they think their race is!

[jhooten]

I hear NASA has a really great program. May be you would be happier with them.

[Duc]

Down here in florida if you sign up early and mail your check they 1) don't cash your check until the event has been run. 2) if you don't show or do show and your car does not make it on the track they shred your check or return it. if you pay with a credit card your card gets credited.

The event was going to be held regardless of whether i signed up or not no reason to keep my money if i can't make the race.

And I have used that a couple of times, even on a test day the day before a race. That has saved me the money to fix the problems right and make the next race, and want to come back for more.

[dj10]

I hear NASA has a really great program. May be you would be happier with them.

Ahhhhh the intellect of a Texan.....Love it or leave it, where have I heard that before? :)

[jhooten]

Why should we raise the entry fees on every entrant to cover the cost incurred by the few who want to pull out on a whim at the last minute? It is the same drivers all the time that do this. Abuse the system often enough and things start to happen to prevent the abuse.

If you have a valid reason for withdrawing take your case to the region and ask for a waiver of the fees. If you don't and decide to stay home because your cousin's girl friend's sister has a hang nail pay the fee and quit whining.

Don't like that way the region is operating get active to change it. Run for a seat on the board.

[dj10]

Jerry, now this is a opinion that is respected.
You are right we should be more involved how our regions plan and charge for races, and I plan on reviewing our regions policy when it comes to withdrawals. I do believe that transmission problems and saftey issures that cropped but were not found until late Thrusday race car were valid issues but the Cincinnatti Region didn't even what to hear them. So not only did I have to fork out money to replace a transmission I had to order other parts to make the car safe and they still hit me with a $50.00 penelty.

[RSTPerformance]

I would be VERY turned off of any race that was charging a cancelation fee... The money part of registration should not be that difficult. Most of the work is getting the entrants info together for t&s. I would thnk requiring everyone to pay at the track would be the easiest system.

Dan- let's mess em up real good!!! Everyone post the races that have penalty fees, we will all register and skip the payment options... The info will be all entered, the region will be excited with all these extra Pre registered cars and oops we never showed... They can't hit you up for a late cancelation fee as technically (in most regions) you are not an official enterant until you have paid!

Raymond "thanks Dick, Glad to be in NER" Blethen

[jjjanos]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event
2. Not refund the full amount if notice of withdrawal is made prior to midnight Friday evening, going into Saturday.

If, however, the Region has turned away entrants because of your entry, then, regardless of when you withdrew, you should be on the hook for the full amount if you pre-registered and you occupied a slot that was turned away.

That being said, one reason to retain part of the entry fee has to do with credit card transaction fees. If the Region processes such an entry, it gets dinged something like 3% by the CCC. If they then process a refund, they get hit with another 2-3%. Which suggests that charging the card prior to the event is a stupid policy. None-the-less, if the Region does process the entry - they should retain the bank fees.

Lots of businesses charge you a cancellation fee - airlines, hotels...especially if booked through a site like travelocity.

[BruceG]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event
2. Not refund the full amount if notice of withdrawal is made prior to midnight Friday evening, going into Saturday.

If, however, the Region has turned away entrants because of your entry, then, regardless of when you withdrew, you should be on the hook for the full amount if you pre-registered and you occupied a slot that was turned away.

That being said, one reason to retain part of the entry fee has to do with credit card transaction fees. If the Region processes such an entry, it gets dinged something like 3% by the CCC. If they then process a refund, they get hit with another 2-3%. Which suggests that charging the card prior to the event is a stupid policy. None-the-less, if the Region does process the entry - they should retain the bank fees.

Lots of businesses charge you a cancellation fee - airlines, hotels...especially if booked through a site like travelocity.

Hell, both INNS in Lakeville, CT(Interlaken and Wake Robin) charge you 50% up front which you won't get back if you cancel for any reason(good chance to give them swine flu, I guess...LOL). On top of an already hefty price for average accomodations, I quess they figure with the prep school parents crowd(Hotchkiss, Salibury,Millbrook, Indian Mountain, Berkshire School,etc) they don't care so much about the Skip Barber, ALMS, SCCA crowd at LRP. The only other local choice is the Sharon Motor Lodge(Bates Motel) that charges $150 per night for hell on earth!!

Sorry to steer this thread in a slightly different direction but we were talking about overcharging...LOL. The new Comfort INN in Great Barrington, Mass is $250 per night. Perhaps Skippy can put a Trump Tower right at trackside so at least we won't have to travel so much.:shrug:

[dj10]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

[Z3_GoCar]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

HEY DAN,

YOU NEED TO COME WEST YOUNG MAN. OUR POLICY IS NO WHEEL ON THE TRACK-YOU

GET A FULL REFUND! ( :p )

Break the race car on a Friday test day, and you'll get to keep all your money for the weekend. Have a bad break during the race on Saturday, then you'll get your money back for Sunday. Just think you'll get just enough people on the track to keep it interesting with out the long lines of slow cars in their own battle for position. Hey property prices are at an all time low too.

[seckerich]

Hey you REGIONS!!!!! READ WHAT YOUR MEMBER ARE TELLING YOU!!!!!!

WE ARE THE SCCA MEMBERS AND YOU BETTER START LISTENING!!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

Cuts both ways Dan. Wait until the region has to shell out $30,000 plus to rent a track and has to pay if you show up or not. It is a huge risk for many regions to run a race. My region does not charge any fees but some must to take the risk. You will soon find less places to play and less track options if you hang the region out. A polite note or phone call to the registrar usually goes a long way to some leeway. As a region we have to commit to a weekend a year in advance and are on the hook for the rent either way. Your region just may tell you it is no longer worth the risk and you can just travel farther to race.

[KelleyHux]

As a registrar, I've watched this thread with interest ... I guess in MiDiv we're pretty lucky. Most everyone has a pretty fair refund policy.

If you've never been a registrar, you cannot fully understand the amount of work that goes into Registration for a weekend. Despite repeated efforts to streamline the paperwork flow, there is still a tremendous amount of paper which moves on any race given weekend. I'd be glad to show you - even if you just have about an hour on Friday night to help out. Keep in mind, not all of us are blessed with race courses which have dependable internet service at a reasonable (i.e. free) price.

On-line registration has been wonderful. Everyone has complaints about almost any on-line registration system - none of them are perfect. As a group they do a great job of making the driver responsible for entering most of his/her information, and at least putting a little bit of effort forward to enter the race. I especially like the on-line entry list, as that has dramatically reduced the calls about "Is so-and-so entered for the weekend?".

Yes, we still have some drivers who do not choose to use computers and/or the internet, so they still register the old fashioned way - by phone. They are genuinely appreciative when I tell them that it sufficient, and they do not need to do anything else except come to the track prepared to pay their entry fee.

My race group, MVRG (consisting of the Des Moines Valley Region and the Nebraska Region), cannot take credit cards at the track. If you enter on-line, you can pay by credit card, but it is not required. If you wish to wait to pay at the track, that's fine - but it must be by check or in cash. Yes, I've sent a few folks off to find an ATM because they didn't come prepared to pay by check or in cash. And, yes, the confirmation email I send to each driver clearly states that any money paid at the track must be by check or in cash.

I can only speak for the registration policies of the Missouri Valley Race Group (MVRG - made up of Des Moines Valley Region and Nebraska Region), but I think they're very generous. If you let the registrar know either by entering on-line, mailing an entry, calling/leaving a message on my phone, or at the very least, sending an email that you will attend the event prior to the opening of at-track registration on Friday at 5:00 PM - no late fee. (Yes, I've had a few messages sent from blackberrys at the track, before 5PM, saving the $40 late fee.) If you simply walk in the door without letting me know you are coming, I'm sorry - but per the MVRG board's wishes I have to charge you a late fee. I keep telling them to drop the late fee, but so far - no luck.

If you break on the test day, and come tell me that you're cancelling - full refund. If you paid by check, I'll return your check.
If you break during the morning session on Saturday for a Regional / National weekend, and you're only entered for the National - I'll change you to a regional only entry - refunding you the difference between the two entry fees ($60 or so). Or, better yet, if you paid by check, bring me a new check, and I'll trade checks with you. That's less paperwork for me, you, and the treasurer.
If you are a paid driver who no-shows, you will get a full refund. However, we do like to know that you won't be there, even if it's after registration opens. (Mostly, 'cause we like to know that you're not in a ditch somewhere between home and the race track.)

All requests for refunds must be made by the close of registration on Sunday.

I guess the biggest point to my rant is that I'd much rather have you enter early. I can get all of the T&S paperwork done prior to the event. The stewards have an idea whether or not groups need to be changed, etc. There's lots of good reasons to enter early. Someone mentioned about the counts for the caterer for Saturday night dinner, and don't forget ... there's planning that goes into calculating how much beer and/or other beverages to buy!

We had to cancel a race last year due to a low turnout - and having been the one who personally called every single one of the drivers who had entered - it's a very difficult decision to pull the plug on an event. I struggled with whether or not to drive the almost 300 miles to be at the gate, just in case someone didn't get the word that the event was cancelled. Lucky for me, I had some local folks who said they would take care of it. My biggest concern was someone who towed from a long distance, only to discover when they pulled in at the track that the event was cancelled.

If you have constructive suggestions on ways Registration can run more smoothly and with less effort for all involved, I'm very interested. Please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM, or send an email to KelleyHux at yahoo dot com.

Thanks for reading this far,
Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

[jumbojimbo]

Given the ease of electronic crediting, there really is no reason for any region to

1. Process the financial part of the entry prior to the event


This ignores the financial reality of organizing a race. Many race tracks (Mid Ohio included) want their deposit money well in advance of the race. If a region doesn't get $ from pre-entries, then the region has to have a $20,000+ reserve from year to year to even be able make the deposit. In some regions, individual members float the region a loan just to make the deposit.

What you are saying is that you would rather see regions not put on events then help pay the deposit for the race you are planning to run.

[tom91ita]

Kelly,

i do want to thank you for your efforts even if i don't drive in your area.

the online registration is very much appreciated. after dabbling with nasa for a couple of years, that was a major advantage they have in convenience.

it also makes it easier to enter the track. if you are pre-registered, you could pull up to the gate, sign the track waiver and nasa waiver and you were in.

not sure how that would work within SCCA. perhaps if we had the hard-card for signed waivers?

thanks again,

tom

[jjjanos]

This ignores the financial reality of organizing a race.

I am aware of these realities.


Many race tracks (Mid Ohio included) want their deposit money well in advance of the race.

So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?


If a region doesn't get $ from pre-entries, then the region has to have a $20,000+ reserve from year to year to even be able make the deposit.

I would argue that a Region that lacks a year-end surplus to reserve its race dates is a Region that is suffering from mismanagement a/o is really too small and should co-sanction/combine with another Region in a similar situation.


In some regions, individual members float the region a loan just to make the deposit.

See above.


What you are saying is that you would rather see regions not put on events then help pay the deposit for the race you are planning to run.

See above.

[Wreckerboy]

I've been down this road in a much smaller organization (EMRA) and seen the ugly financial realities. EMRA does not demand pre-registration, and does refund your entry if you chose not to turn a wheel after you pay.

Reality #1: Want a date in July? Be prepared to pay for at least 50% of it (varies by track) in the January-March timeframe. In the northeast, that means the organization has to do it on income from the previous year. Oh, and if you cancel the event too late you get to pay for the date anyway, or some huge portion of it.

Reality #2: Insurance. It costs a lot, and typically they want a huge amount of that up front as well. IIRC, EMRA's insurance is around $35K per year. And you can't rent a track around these parts without proof of insurance. So it has to be paid for early on.

The ugly reality is that a typical 10 weekend EMRA season chews up $50K or more before the first event of the year. And EMRA is small potatoes compared to SCCA and NASA in terms of size and expense.


I am aware of these realities.

So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?

No, but that is not the idea of a non-refund policy. It is to cover the organization's ass in the event of a fiscal, for lack of a better word, washout. It is designed to encourage the driver to attend and spend. For example, EMRA had an event at LRP a few years ago that had rain on race day (EMRA did/does two day weekends, one day Time Trial, one day race) which resulted in about 12 cars showing up and running. There probably were in excess of 60 "pre-registered." LRP is expensive, hugely so, with rentals in the $35K per day range at the time. Forgive me if I don't recall the exact amount. There is no discount from LRP for bad weather.

It would have damn near put us out of business, but fortunately the TT the day before was a huge success (except for me, I rolled the damn car going down the hill :( ) and EMRA lived to see another day.

I'm not involved over there as actively as before, but I do know that like a lot of smaller organizations they are suffering in this economy. It's not bad money management, it is the desire to put on affordable events and remain around to do so from year to year.

[tdw6974]

[quote=BruceG;295315]Hell, both INNS in Lakeville, CT(Interlaken and Wake Robin) charge you 50% up front which you won't get back if you cancel for any reason(good chance to give them swine flu, I guess...LOL). On top of an already hefty price for average accomodations, I quess they figure with the prep school parents crowd(Hotchkiss, Salibury,Millbrook, Indian Mountain, Berkshire School,etc) they don't care so much about the Skip Barber, ALMS, SCCA crowd at LRP. The only other local choice is the Sharon Motor Lodge(Bates Motel) that charges $150 per night for hell on earth!!

Try The willows down the road for a thrill

[jumbojimbo]

...
So opening registration 3 weeks prior to an event really doesn't help make the deposit required well in-advance of the event, does it?


I'll give you that one. Besides cash flow there are many reasons to have registration open early. But you painted with a broad brush, essentially saying that no region should process financial transactions before race day. I disagree with that part. The region needs the cash flow.


...
I would argue that a Region that lacks a year-end surplus to reserve its race dates ... (insert unlikley solution here)

That's fine, but you just cancelled a couple of GL races. I'm not saying I like it this way, but if we don't pre-register and help regions fund their deposit, the race will eventually be lost never to return. Unless you think that only the 1 or 2 big regions should be putting on races in each division.

It's easy to make demands on how it should be when you don't have $30,000 on the line and a chance to bankrupt your region. Again, maybe a region in that situation shouldn't be putting on a race. But then we'll be whining about the lack of races. Cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[jjjanos]

I'll give you that one. Besides cash flow there are many reasons to have registration open early. But you painted with a broad brush, essentially saying that no region should process financial transactions before race day. I disagree with that part. The region needs the cash flow.

Opening registration and taking money are distinct actions. I didn't essentially say no financial processing prior to the event, that is exactly what I said. A Region that needs the cash flow that badly is living life to close to the edge.


That's fine, but you just cancelled a couple of GL races.

Why? Because the Regions won't cooperate and hold an event together?


Unless you think that only the 1 or 2 big regions should be putting on races in each division.

It's easy to make demands on how it should be when you don't have $30,000 on the line and a chance to bankrupt your region. Again, maybe a region in that situation shouldn't be putting on a race. But then we'll be whining about the lack of races. Cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Who hosts the event only determines who has financial skin in the game and, possibly, the faces that carry the titles. The field hands generally don't care who hosts the event, unless their is something wrong with the management (see below) and drivers, IMO, don't care either unless their is something wrong with the management.

When I lived in the old CenDiv (pre-Gingerman days), you saw the same faces at Waterford for DET regionals and schools that you saw at Grattan for the WMR and DET events. Grattan got some folks who wouldn't make the trip to Waterford, but they still showed for the annual DET event at Grattan.

So, exactly what's the problem with two Regions co-hosting a race?