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Andy Bettencourt
09-01-2009, 02:03 PM
www.narrc.com (http://www.narrc.com)

Drivers,

Please start thinking about the NARRC season for 2010. I have been asked to gather feedback to present to the NARRC committee. What do you like, what can be improved, what would you change? Please send all feedback to me so I can put it into presentation format for the committee.

andybettencourt AT hotmail DOT com

No suggestion is to small or too large. No changes? Total revamp? Few tweaks? Add tracks? Eliminate tracks? Points? Money? Trophies? More races? Less races?

Think about how you would run it. Think about participation. The more feedback the better. Thanks!

(Go ahead and bounce around ideas in this thread if you want to but PLEASE send your official ideas to my e-mail so I can accurately coordinate the data)

Doc Bro
09-01-2009, 05:07 PM
I personally feel that it is/was a mistake to grow the series to 14 events this year when last year the series was 12 events. Why in the face of a dwindling economy would we ask our racers to do more? The series races too much- period.

I also feel strongly that we should not patronize LRP as heavily and maybe NHMS too if we want to be forward looking (with Palmer).

We need to add more prestige to the series some how or a fledgling series like Team-DI Pro-IT will kill it [NARRC] off rapidly. That BTW is NARRC's real competition and is a very energized and VIABLE alternative to NARRC.

We need to stop using NARRC points as a tool to keep events subscribed. If an event can't stand on it's own (ie Pocono, LRP) then 1.) either get creative with it (Jack's idea's at LRP) or 2.) dump it. Period.

Get rid of regional politicking and do what's right for the series.

And most importantly......I made most of these points (ALONG WITH OTHER DRIVERS REPS) two years ago and none of them got done!! If the series isn't willing to listen to its drivers then don't waste our time asking for input.

R

dickita15
09-01-2009, 05:47 PM
Rob I think you need to be more specific on some of your comments.
In 2009 Narrc ran:
3 weekends at NHMS (5 races)
3 weekends at LRP (3 races)
1 weekend at Pocono (2 races)
2 weekends at NJMP (2 races)
1 weekend at the Glen (2 races)
What do people really want?
It is a little hard to compare the Pro It with Narrc because Pro It cherry picks the few most popular classes, although admittedly the ones this site cares about.

Andy Bettencourt
09-01-2009, 07:03 PM
And most importantly......I made most of these points (ALONG WITH OTHER DRIVERS REPS) two years ago and none of them got done!! If the series isn't willing to listen to its drivers then don't waste our time asking for input.

R

Rob,

Plenty of suggestions have been put into play over the past couple years. Just because all of them haven't gone your way doesn't mean you should take your ball and go home. Let's all work hard to make this the best series it can be.

ner88
09-01-2009, 07:16 PM
I think it needs to visit each track once, with a schedule well spread out over the season.
NJ gets only one race sorry, just like NHMS (NHMS has two courses as well!)
It needs to be an event with the same schedule/format possibly leaving room to have Pro It.
Something like Sat. practice/Qual, followed by sprint races. Sunday Pro It practice/Qual, then longer races/ last race of the day is Pro IT.
At LRP, Maybe do it on July 4th weekend so we can do a Friday/Saturday same schedule.

Doc Bro
09-01-2009, 07:32 PM
Rob,

Plenty of suggestions have been put into play over the past couple years. Just because all of them haven't gone your way doesn't mean you should take your ball and go home. Let's all work hard to make this the best series it can be.


Who's taking their ball and going home??? I've supported the NARRC series more than anyone I know. I've only missed 3 NARRC races in 3 seasons. Thats an attendance of 34 out of the last 37 NARRC races. My support is unprecedented. I think that's an unfair statement. If all of the drivers in our region participated with with my numbers we'd have few problems.

The point's I have made are my own as well as others. If the series wants to improve it needs to listen to its drivers. Why do you think PRO-IT is working so well? Because Bob and Darryl ask questions and listen to answers; and the driver's KNOW it's THE DRIVER'S series. The NARRC feels like the regions' series.

R

kevin22
09-01-2009, 07:46 PM
I went into this in great detail at specmiata.com. But I will say it here as well.
I hate the bonus points.
and my reason..... They don't effect the outcome of the championship, all they do is create a huge point differential aftter a few positions down. all season long the points are innacurate until it has evened out.

Greg Amy
09-01-2009, 09:27 PM
What do you like, what can be improved, what would you change?
Add Palmer for 2010? Hey, just offerin'...

benspeed
09-01-2009, 09:44 PM
I'd ask for longer races. Publication in Sports Car. Somebody to write a summary of each NARRC race and publish it. Photos of the podium. Decent trophies. Result upload to MyLaps for all events.

I want a blond supermodel to hand me a cold german beer when I arrive in impound...

dominojd
09-02-2009, 06:41 AM
I'd ask for longer races. Publication in Sports Car. Somebody to write a summary of each NARRC race and publish it. Photos of the podium. Decent trophies. Result upload to MyLaps for all events.

I want a blond supermodel to hand me a cold german beer when I arrive in impound...

You want them to copy pro IT? :D

Jeremy Billiel
09-02-2009, 08:56 AM
- Fewer Races
- Only one race per track
- Longer Races
- No Bonus Points (not needed if only one race per track)
- Money should be awarded to the drivers at year end
- Remove Admin Fee
- Add Palmer in 2011
- NARRC-OFFs is still last ane only event at LRP for NARRC Points

gran racing
09-02-2009, 09:32 AM
You want them to copy pro IT?

Pretty much sounds like it. From an outsider's perspective of the NARRC series, it's always seemed like the winner is primarly based upon attendance to events. While that won't be a popular statement to some, I don't think it's so far off from reality looking at the entire group in each class and not just the top three. I looked through the 17 page results, and there really aren't that many people who attend the majority of NARRC events. Top 3 in ITA, 1 in ITB, Rob in ITR, 1 in ITS... Way, way, way too many races especially when considering other big draws such as the IT Fest, ARRC, and Pro IT events. Because of this, the series kinda gets wattered down. It would be much more interesting to have fewer events and more racers truly going after the championship. Take advantage of the NARRC Runoffs at LRP and make it a bigger event. Again, just my opinion but in my eyes that had the stigma of being one of THE events and now is more of just another race at LRP which happens to be towards the end of the year. Now if you do take some the ideas that PRO IT is doing and really focus on a few events (one at each track as others have suggested?), you might get more people following the series.

ed325its
09-02-2009, 08:37 PM
My support is unprecedented.

???? Really?

Andy Bettencourt
09-02-2009, 10:20 PM
For the record, I only have one e-mail. If you want me to compile your thoughts. Send it in!

Doc Bro
09-03-2009, 07:09 AM
???? Really?


How many others can make that claim?

R

BruceG
09-03-2009, 08:14 AM
I'd ask for longer races. Publication in Sports Car. Somebody to write a summary of each NARRC race and publish it. Photos of the podium. Decent trophies. Result upload to MyLaps for all events.

I want a blond supermodel to hand me a cold german beer when I arrive in impound...

How about having a cold German hand you a blond supermodel when you arrive in impound, instead....Ben...LOL:026:

ner88
09-03-2009, 10:00 AM
Ben
Longer races, how long?
Would you be willing to write the summary?

ed325its
09-03-2009, 07:23 PM
How many others can make that claim?

R

In the 20+ years I have been around NARRC I would suggest quite a few.

dtanthon
09-03-2009, 07:41 PM
The NARRC website (www.NARRC.com (http://www.NARRC.com)) has the points from 2001 to the present.
This has how many weekends. how many rounds, how many doubles, and who drove what how many times.

Please send Andy your observations, comments and suggestions.

dpc
09-03-2009, 08:10 PM
Could the Regions stand on their own without any series ?????? dave

kevin22
09-03-2009, 08:31 PM
This is the way the 09 season should have looked. October LRP should just be a single, and get rid of all the bonus points. Top 6 races count for points. Just think how close the points would be in each class. the Tight points battle would make the series more fun, and ultimately increase car counts. 11 events total


18-Apr NHMS Single
9-May POCONO Double
10-May POCONO
20-Jun LRP One Day
7/18&19 NJMP Lightning
25-Jul WGIGlen Double
26-Jul WGIGlen
8/22&23 NJMP Thunderbolt
12-Sep NHMS NERDouble
13-Sep NHMS
10/2&3 LRP single


On a side note we still need to do something about hardship practices. they should only be available for those that need it.

and also I wonder why we need 5 minutes after the checkers at the grid. 3 minutes seems like more then enough time. and it is so damn hot some days. plus we pick up another 16-18 minutes.

Jeremy Billiel
09-03-2009, 08:34 PM
Could the Regions stand on their own without any series ?????? dave

yes NER could

Dano77
09-03-2009, 08:42 PM
Read the rule book aka GCR section 6.2.2.a then get the 18 minutes somewhere else.

Just sayin,Dan

Doc Bro
09-03-2009, 09:44 PM
In the 20+ years I have been around NARRC I would suggest quite a few.

In the face of a significant recession? That's why we are where we are. And it's great that there are drivers who've and who do participate with high event counts, but where are they all now? And what will it take to get them back. Isn't that the crux of this thread?


And to Daves point. That's exactly what the regions are using the NARRC designation for. Because they wouldn't be solvent without the car counts or they would lose significant revenue on a per event basis. This weekend past Brian M jokingly stated that this was the last NARRC season, and while it was obvious he was joking, it does suggest a bit of truth at least among some of the IT crowd. This personally will be my last NARRC season, I feel that there are more tracks to see and more experiences to be had than the NARRC is currently offering.

R

StephenB
09-03-2009, 11:07 PM
Andy,

I hope to have an e-mail with a complete revamp idea to energize and transform the series. Basically in short I would love to follow a national style format with points similar to the national divisions to qualify you for our own NARRC Runnoffs similar to the national runnoffs only for the Norh Atlantic Regional Racing series. Bring back the NARRC Runnoffs in full force and make it what it was back in the late 80's. We have grown so far away from that and made it a year long championship series that most championships are decided long before the end. Almost every profesional sports Series (Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer, Olympics, Nascar, even SCCA National Series) uses a format that allows you to spend the "regular Season" to prove your stuff to qualify for the big show at the end... then you have to bring your A-game to the big event and show everyone you are the top guy/gal! Nascar and SCCA National Racing are the only 2 autoracing series that I can think if that do this and I think they are on the right track for keeping interest and excitement all the way to the very end.

I'll get something to you shortly... when do you need the feedback by?
Stephen

Andy Bettencourt
09-03-2009, 11:38 PM
I like the total revamp idea - but remember one think in your sports analogy...most of your Pro Sports analogies have a playoff system and not a 'one and done' except football.

I think the double points at the Runoffs bridges the two concepts. It weights the RO's heavily but you don't NEED to win it to be the champ.

Andy Bettencourt
09-03-2009, 11:50 PM
yes NER could

Do you realize 6 of the 10 NERRC events are also NARRC events? It also appears that the two NON NARRC doubles are the two lowest attended events of the season. Did you know the Lime Rock single (NARRC) outperformed the RAL single (non NARRC) by 50+ entires (based on electronic pre-reg on NESCCA.com) Not saying that NER couldn't survive because we know it could but I don't think we have a good grip on the infuence of a NARRC event. The short season format of ProIt is proving popular!

There is no doubt that the NARRC series needs a revamp. Hell, I think it should be run by an independent committee that runs a single event at each track (NHMS, LRP, WGI, POC, Thunderbolt, Lightning), gives out event winner stickers and killer year-end trophies...but that may be too extreme.

ed325its
09-03-2009, 11:56 PM
In the face of a significant recession?

That is not the definition of unprecedented. You can't qualify your statement after the fact.

kevin22
09-04-2009, 06:21 AM
yes NER could

Lets look at the last race for NER at NHMS.

Group1 9 classes total. ITA,ITr, ITb, etc 19 cars
group2 Formula cars 13 classes 8 cars
Group 3 T1, GT1, etc 10 classes 12 cars
Group 4 SM 1 class 25 cars
Group 5 SRF 3 clases 4 cars
group 6 combined
Group 7 SSM 6 claasses 16 cars
Group 8 FV 3 classes 8 cars

Seems like this weekend was a waste, Not sure where all the SRF cars were, but I am sure this race never stood a chance. 1 week after a NARRC race & 2 weeks before another NER racee at the same track.

Jeremy Billiel
09-04-2009, 06:59 AM
Do you realize 6 of the 10 NERRC events are also NARRC events? It also appears that the two NON NARRC doubles are the two lowest attended events of the season. Did you know the Lime Rock single (NARRC) outperformed the RAL single (non NARRC) by 50+ entires (based on electronic pre-reg on NESCCA.com) Not saying that NER couldn't survive because we know it could but I don't think we have a good grip on the infuence of a NARRC event. The short season format of ProIt is proving popular!

There is no doubt that the NARRC series needs a revamp. Hell, I think it should be run by an independent committee that runs a single event at each track (NHMS, LRP, WGI, POC, Thunderbolt, Lightning), gives out event winner stickers and killer year-end trophies...but that may be too extreme.

I hear you, but as a result of the lower operating costs at NHMS NER's breakeve point is lower than other tracks. So while NER could survive and change it up to keep the car counts coming, I also acknowledge that the last races have been poorly attended.

dickita15
09-04-2009, 07:02 AM
Kevin,
Jeremy is right, NER has a good core or drivers and could easily run its own series without Narrc. Last week’s event has been our weakest for years mainly because of the date in my opinion. We have been trying to move the date and it looks like next year we will be able to move it a little.
I believe even with last weekend being as weak as it was the region will break even. NER is pretty efficient and has an advantage with cost being spread out over many events.
Actually I need to correct myself, RAL is our weakest Regional event. The NHMS national is actually or weakest weekend.

JLawton
09-04-2009, 07:05 AM
How about looking at it from the total opposite approach. EVERY race has NARRC points and only top 8 count? I do think there should be some sort of reward for racing at other tracks. You don't want someone to win the series just becasue he can kick ass at only one track.

I don't know if this is a good idea or not. All the suggestions I've heard have merit. Smarter people than I can hopefully figure it out. Truthfully? I don't think there is a silver bullet for this problem.

Greg Amy
09-04-2009, 07:17 AM
Here's something to chew on: is there any reason to have any kind of series at all? I mean, fer krist's sake, this ain't no pro football here...I'd like to think we're all in it for the activity itself (the racing) not to pretend we're some kinda pro players...we're decisively not...

If you like that kinda stuff, then leave the "series championships" to Pro-IT and go pretend in that arena if you want. Don't try to bring in sponsorship, and money, and things like that; you'll just ruin the amateur racing (there are plenty of places to go play in if you want that). I'm personally in it for the individual weekend activities (racing, time with friends, playing with cars) and I don't give two shakes about any season "championships"... sorry if I sound rude, but I just see this whole series thing within amateur racing as posing (trust me, Roger ain't out there watching to see who wins). But I admit my viewpoint is dramatically skewed...

:shrug:

JLawton
09-04-2009, 07:20 AM
Here's something to chew on: is there any reason to have any kind of series at all? I mean, fer krist's sake, this ain't no pro football here...I'd like to think we're all in it for the activity itself (the racing) not to pretend we're some kinda pro players...we're decisively not...

If you like that kinda stuff, then leave the "series championships" to Pro-IT and go pretend in that arena if you want. Don't try to bring in sponsorship, and money, and things like that; you'll just ruin the amateur racing (there are plenty of places to go play in if you want that). I'm personally in it for the individual weekend activities (racing, time with friends, playing with cars) and I don't give two shakes about any season "championships"... sorry if I sound rude, but I just see this whole series thing within amateur racing as posing (trust me, Roger ain't out there watching to see who wins). But I admit my viewpoint is dramatically skewed...

:shrug:


Says the man who has "NARRC Champion" in his signature!! LOL

ner88
09-04-2009, 07:40 AM
Greg, it's been my question all along.

Look at last years NARRC series leaders and see how many aren't even running.
Racers are picking tracks and events that fit their schedule and offer the best bang for their buck.
NER like other regions are given dates from the track, that's it, only choice we get is do we want them. Refuse and someone else will get them and we probably won't have them offered to us next year.
NARRC gave NER's best dates away, I didn't get much choice in picking. Were their too many at NHMS in the past? Before NJ, probably no.
Now we, NER, have a double points NARRC event and NJ is running a PRO IT race against us!
Who's crying we need to work together?

Greg Amy
09-04-2009, 07:56 AM
Says the man who has "NARRC Champion" in his signature!! LOL
Hey, I said my position was skewed, dood...but so is yours. This is not an attack on my close friend Jeff Lawton, but you've had this tunnel-vision for years now, and - as I have described to you in the past - it's detrimentally affected your enjoyment of racing over the last couple of years. In fact, observing you is one of the factors that has led me to this skewed conclusion...

This "series thing" makes you do stoopid things. I've actually had guys come up to me before a race and, effectively, ask me to lay down and not win so I won't "affect their championship", as if I were some interloper. My response, of course, is along the line of "sure, no prob, write me a check for the $2k it's costing me to be here, and not only will I lay down, I'll even block your competitor for you." The nasty look I get told me that they simply don't "get" it...

I can tell you from experience that this whole "championship thing" really skews your perspective, and goes a long way toward reducing your enjoyment of your hobby. I do this for the fun of it, for the enjoyment, and for the individual activity. I would - and do - spend a lot more time and effort to win individual races (IT Fest, ARRC, endurance events) than I would to win any "series championship". I'll take any plaudits you want to toss in my lap that may come my way, but I most certainly won't go out of my way to attain them, knowing what I know vis-a-vis what it does to your pursuit, your hobby, your attitude, your enjoyment. There are plenty of opportunities out there for winning series championships against top-notch competition, results that anyone in the sport should and would be proud of. Notice, of course, that they're expensive; that's the nature of the beast...

Go for it, Jeffy. And when you finally win one - and you will - come talk to me about how it was so worth it to you in the end.

GA

Doc Bro
09-04-2009, 08:08 AM
That is not the definition of unprecedented. You can't qualify your statement after the fact.


OK Ed you win. I sincerely and humbly apologize for describing my level of participation unprecedented.....I hope that makes you happy.

R

dpc
09-05-2009, 06:57 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, but alot of people loose sight of why they started in this sport. not to win championships but to have fun and learn about their cars and how to race them....dave

JTBirden
09-05-2009, 09:43 AM
amen

benspeed
09-08-2009, 07:33 AM
Couple of comments - first - I will absolutely write a summary of each NARRC race I'm at - but I need a "cold German to hand me a blond supermodel" :-)

Second - Greg? WTF? You not in this for the joy of competition? You get tired of winning? I love racing because of the competition. Otherwise I'd do PDX days... Come on man - that was the goofiest post I've seen from you. Don't care about a championship? - bullcrap.

I like the idea that every race is a NARRC race but you can only count so many races from so many tracks so that the championship cannot be won racing at NHMS or NJMP alone.

Greg Amy
09-08-2009, 07:41 AM
Come on man - that was the goofiest post I've seen from you. Don't care about a championship? - bullcrap.
Waaa...? You equate "joy of competition" and "winning" and "competition" only with winning a series championship? If it's all about the season numbers,why don't we do Fantasy Racing instead? After all, I can win a championship that way much more cheaply...

Hey, when was the last time you were drinking with the guys and you reminisced and review play-by-play about winning a championship? I'd suggest you spent a hell of a lot more time talking about specific races...because that's what it's all about. No one remembers championships, everybody remembers good individual races.

Personally, I'd rather tan your ass on a race-by-race basis...the effect is immediate and the bull-shatting lasts a lot longer... ;)

gran racing
09-08-2009, 08:23 AM
Second - Greg? WTF? You not in this for the joy of competition? You get tired of winning? I love racing because of the competition. Otherwise I'd do PDX days... Come on man - that was the goofiest post I've seen from you. Don't care about a championship? - bullcrap.

Ben, I totally understand where Greg is coming from. He's not saying he gets tired of winning, but is talking about chasing one of many "championship" series. If people enjoy doing that, good for them.

After coming back from a fantastic Summit Point weekend, agreeing much with what Greg said, hearing how regions want to focus on improving participation...maybe the time and energy would be better spent focusing on making a few amazing events. Yes, I know we have some very good events but talking about taking it to another level such as the IT Fest, Summit's Labor Day Weekend, and ARRC. More to come in another thread.

benspeed
09-08-2009, 09:31 AM
Hey Greg - you are an expert at putting words in other peoples posts - you used the word ONLY - don't play that rookie debate crap with me, thanks. I don't have patience for people reworking what I say. That irritates the shit out of me.

My point is clearly that competition is why we race, otherwise do a PDX. That's why it's called RACING. I would rather tan your ass over an entire season which is what shows who was the best driver that season, not a particular particular race. It's tougher to win a championship.

But I do agree that when we are hanging out drinking all of Crazy Joe's Yeungling, folks talk about specific races, not self aggrandizing over their Championship season.

But don't diminish the importance of a racing championship. (Wait - I forgot the smilely face so I'm not so pissy :-)

Greg Amy
09-08-2009, 09:48 AM
Hey Greg - you are an expert at putting words in other peoples posts - you used the word ONLY - don't play that rookie debate crap with me, thanks. I don't have patience for people reworking what I say. That irritates the shit out of me.
Easy there, cowboy! Notice that was a question, my friend...? I'm trying to point out that in my opinion placing a priority on series over enjoying individual races can skew your perspective and actually cause you to enjoy the individual events less. If I had to choose between enjoying the individual events more and the series less, or vice versa, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat. And I have.

Sure, it's "tougher" to win a championship than an individual race, but you're mistaken that the winner of the series is necessarily indicates the "best driver". All a series championship primarily does is indicate which competitors are more "devoted" (i.e., willing to commit more resources) to running the entire series, and then - and only then - deciding within that smaller subset who is the "best driver". If The Randy Pobst comes in and beats us all in one or two races, but doesn't run the series, are you going to claim that by winning the series championship that you or I are the better driver than The Randy Pobst?

I certainly don't diminish the accomplishment of winning a series championship;hell, been there, done that, several times. I'm simply pointing out is has no value to me. I will quickly pass on that 13th or 14th NHMS NARRC/NERRC/MARRS/whatever event to be able to compete at a Pro-IT event in New Jersey, or the ITFest at Mid-Ohio, or the ARRC at Road Atlanta. I do this hobby because I enjoy the events, the races themselves, not the season-long quest for the series.

But, if that's the focus, that we want to prove who's the better drivers over a full season of racing, then it should be all races, all tracks, everything counts, and no drops. Want to "prove" who's the better season-long driver? All in, babe; that's how they do it in the Bigs.

Everything else is just posing.

And, on a lighter note, I suspect you highly misunderstand the competitive nature of PDX events... ;)

Greg

StephenB
09-08-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm actually a bit different (OK no jokes :eek: ) than the rest of you because I actually refocused my agenda to go FOR a championship last year and this year. I took 2 years before that to travel and race at "bigger" more attended races like the ARRC, IT Fest, ect but found that I was missing something all summer long. I missed the anticipation of waiting between events in a championship to see what is going to happen next. What twist and turn will the next race create in the series championship. I will admit I have always been in the top 5 litteraly battling to the last 2 races to get on the podium. Last year it was a thrill ride that took many turns and made my last race of the year that more interesting. I knew what cars I had to beat and by how much and it became a race inside the race I was participating in. I also enjoy spending the entire summer participating in what feels like a summer long event rather than just jumping around. I like the build-up, the friendships I get from racing the same guys/gals all summer and I truelly like the challenge to win a series over just a weekend. I also admit that if I was in a class that I had no chance of getting on the series podium it would probably be much less interesting to race in the championship series and I would actually go for the more exciting weekends.

I do enjoy and probably do share stories from a the view of a particular race weekend rather than from the view of the championship but all those race weekends that I am doing and the storys that come from them all have an effect on the outcome of the series championship which make them that more interesting to me.

I submitted my proposal for a complete revamp that would include making the NARRC RUNOFFS a must run event in the NESCCA Division much like the National Runoffs are for the SCCA National Division of our club. It follows the National Points structure and philosophy as I understand it allowing ALL Regional Races in the NESCCA to qualify and at the same time helps reduce travel for those interested in running in it.

It's funny how we are all so different on what we like and even that changes from season to season. At least one thing is for sure... we all like competition and we have a desire to drive :eclipsee_steering:

Stephen
2008 TeamDI Pro-ITB Series Champion!

Doc Bro
09-08-2009, 10:56 AM
But, if that's the focus, that we want to prove who's the better drivers over a full season of racing, then it should be all races, all tracks, everything counts, and no drops. Want to "prove" who's the better season-long driver? All in, babe; that's how they do it in the Bigs.


Greg

Actually Greg that would prove who's "more devoted" than the current system, rather than who's a better driver. In the current system you get guys dropping podium finishes, with your proposal they could keep them, to their benefit. In other words, keeping everything favors the "working man driver" over the guy who elects to sit one or two out or has an occaisional Mulligan. I think the current NARRC structure is poor because of that fact.

R

Jeremy Billiel
09-08-2009, 12:00 PM
- Fewer Races
- Only one race per track
- Longer Races
- No Bonus Points (not needed if only one race per track)
- Money should be awarded to the drivers at year end
- Remove Admin Fee
- Add Palmer in 2011
- NARRC-OFFs is still last ane only event at LRP for NARRC Points

No one is listening. This championship shoudl not be about who attends more races. Per my prior post. No bonus points, only one track each and to Jerry's prior post NJMP and NHMS only get one event not 2 tracks. It's as easy as that!:D

Doc Bro
09-08-2009, 12:45 PM
No one is listening. This championship shoudl not be about who attends more races. Per my prior post. No bonus points, only one track each and to Jerry's prior post NJMP and NHMS only get one event not 2 tracks. It's as easy as that!:D


Jeremy,

You do mean one WEEKEND per track not one race right. Otherwise how long are you anticipating the race to be, and what would "your" schedule look like?

Here's the format I would use.

Two points races per weekend only one weekend per track in the NARRC series.

Sat AM 10-15 min Qualify
Sat PM Points race 30min with a random invert of finishing to set grid or something like that to keep it interesting
Sun AM second 30 min qualifying race finishing order sets grid
Sun PM 45min points race

R

gran racing
09-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Jeremy, people are listening and that series is called PRO IT. It's the first series I've actually been somewhat tempted by.

There are numerous series throughout the nation where it's much more about who attends the most events in a particular series then whose the best. How many different series are there even in the NE alone? NARRC, NERRC, Pro IT, ???

One can't compare the various championship series in SCCA Club Racing to PRO (racing, football, baseball, or whatever). Much, much different secenarios.


You do mean one WEEKEND per track

As you're stating, less races applies to these series as well. Make it more manageable for people to run a full series which generates more interest. More interest and participants generates additional competition. It all goes hand-in-hand.

benspeed
09-08-2009, 12:51 PM
Jeremy - agreed!

Greg - you are my friend and I am a cowboy :-) But I do bust balls if I don't like something and you get tougher scrutiny on this topic because you are a multi champion and ARRC winner.

I feel strongly that racing for a championship is a big part of the game and a measure of skill. But after ruminating on Greg's position that a myopic focus on the championship can kill the fun, there's truth to that. I remember racing for the NARRC ITS championship in '05 and just pouring $$ into the car, rushing to fix before the next race, racing 10-12 weekends to have enough participation points to even be in the hunt, adjusting on the car between every sesssion - that did kill down a lot of the fun of the race weekend and just enjoing the moment of being at the track.

Being myopic or singularly focused on the championship result - that's a trap I fell into and the hobby was less fun. Realized it, changed my priorities and still ran for championships and won a couple and had WAY more fun. So I believe I understand your position better - that you are not seeking to diminish the value of a championship - your point is a myopic approach to going after a championship can outweigh the moment, the weekend fun with friends. I agree that the merit of the championship is less because of the points format.

What we want to solve for is how to construct a championship that does reward skill and effort and not be a participation trophy like every kid gets on the soccer team - that is meaningless. A championship should demonstrate who was the best driver over the course of a season from results on the podium, not bonus points for attendance.

Doc Bro
09-08-2009, 01:12 PM
A championship should demonstrate who was the best driver over the course of a season from results on the podium, not bonus points for attendance.


Amen!!

Those bonus points have been unfairly used by regions to boost attendance at their failing events at the expense of the drivers wallet.

R

Andy Bettencourt
09-08-2009, 01:33 PM
Amen!!

Those bonus points have been unfairly used by regions to boost attendance at their failing events at the expense of the drivers wallet.

R

Not the past year. The Pocono bonus is gone. Bonus points are given out for attending 5+ events and 3 or more tracks. You guys really think they impact a championship that has 14 events and takes the best 8? In reality, you should HAVE TO go to 5 in order to even be eligible for the year end hunt. Half + 1 is a very common way to do this. The track bonus is to try and make sure a driver wasn't a one-track wonder and a true multi-track driver.

To Greg's point about the 'big-guys' and that is how they do it - we aren't them. Meaning we have real jobs and real lives. We don't have back up cars and big sponsors. It seemingly makes sense to do a 'best of' system or else it WOULD be an attendance award!!! This is an attempt at a system that rewards the best given the reality of real life. No? What would be better?

My redo suggestion dumps the bonus points but keeps in a minimum amount of events (5) to qualify. It has 8 weekends on 6 tracks over 7 months providing 12 points opportunities. Doubles every weekend exept two events following schools. If you require 5 events, you don't need to incent people because you are demanding it, if you have events at all the tracks and not a slew at one, you don't need track bonuses.

ner88
09-08-2009, 02:19 PM
Sat AM 10-15 min Qualify
Sat PM Points race 30min with a random invert of finishing to set grid or something like that to keep it interesting
Sun AM second 30 min qualifying race finishing order sets grid
Sun PM 45min points race

R

How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.

Jeremy Billiel
09-08-2009, 03:26 PM
How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.

Interesting idea Jerry!

ner88
09-08-2009, 03:44 PM
It's not a NARRC race, It's a NARRC EVENT.
I want everyone to want to attend the event!
Just calling a race a NARRC race dosen't bring in racers anymore or at least enough to make a difference.
5 Events-5 Tracks!
No bonus points, no runoff!

Doc Bro
09-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Not the past year. The Pocono bonus is gone. Bonus points are given out for attending 5+ events and 3 or more tracks. You guys really think they impact a championship that has 14 events and takes the best 8? In reality, you should HAVE TO go to 5 in order to even be eligible for the year end hunt. Half + 1 is a very common way to do this. The track bonus is to try and make sure a driver wasn't a one-track wonder and a true multi-track driver.

To Greg's point about the 'big-guys' and that is how they do it - we aren't them. Meaning we have real jobs and real lives. We don't have back up cars and big sponsors. It seemingly makes sense to do a 'best of' system or else it WOULD be an attendance award!!! This is an attempt at a system that rewards the best given the reality of real life. No? What would be better?

My redo suggestion dumps the bonus points but keeps in a minimum amount of events (5) to qualify. It has 8 weekends on 6 tracks over 7 months providing 12 points opportunities. Doubles every weekend exept two events following schools. If you require 5 events, you don't need to incent people because you are demanding it, if you have events at all the tracks and not a slew at one, you don't need track bonuses.


That is true AB, an omission on my part, and if memory serves me that also came out of our town hall 2 years ago [bonus points to Pocon that is].

R

Doc Bro
09-08-2009, 04:36 PM
How about Sunday AM 30 min Points races
Sunday PM (3) 45 min races
1. PRO IT
1. PRO SM
1. PRO SFR
Your fastest lap of weekend sets grid for PRO races, in other words you must run the regional.


Hmmmmmm......

R

On edit, will there be a second entry fee for the "Pro" part of the weekend?

ner88
09-08-2009, 08:54 PM
Hmmmmmm......

R

On edit, will there be a second entry fee for the "Pro" part of the weekend?

Of course! or we can just charge more for 1 entry?:)

Eagle7
09-09-2009, 01:21 PM
...Sure, it's "tougher" to win a championship than an individual race, but you're mistaken that the winner of the series is necessarily indicates the "best driver". All a series championship primarily does is indicate which competitors are more "devoted" (i.e., willing to commit more resources) to running the entire series, and then - and only then - deciding within that smaller subset who is the "best driver". If The Randy Pobst comes in and beats us all in one or two races, but doesn't run the series, are you going to claim that by winning the series championship that you or I are the better driver than The Randy Pobst?...

Greg
My rookie year I was at least 5 seconds off the pace. I don't think I beat anybody on-track. Back then we had to sign up for the Champ series, and only a handfull did. Points were awarded solely based on the relative finishing position of Champ series drivers, and they gave double points for select events. I clinched the division championship with the double 1st place points I got by blowing up on lap 10 of an 18 lap race. That trophy is not one I display proudly.

dpc
09-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Maybe it is time to look at minium number of cars per class to be included to be a champ....I mean what thrill is to be a champ of 3-4 cars, maybe your friend next door will see that champ trophy and think you beat 42 others like naccar. guess I opened my mouth again with out a dog in this fight. but I have a hard time looking at a champ that beat 3 other cars all season long.....sorry dave

Dave Zaslow
09-10-2009, 09:06 AM
1. There should be no more than 12 designated NARRC races at 6 circuits over 8 weekends:

· Lime Rock Park, Lime Rock, CT – LRP (1 single NARRC race and the season ending NARRC double points race)
· Pocono International Raceway, Pocono, PA - PIR (1 double NARRC race weekend)
· New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Louden, NH - NHMS (2 double NARRC race weekends)
· New Jersey Motorsports Park Thunderbolt Circuit, Millville, NJ - NJMP-T (1 NARRC race)
· New Jersey Motorsports Park Lightning Circuit, Millville, NJ - NJMP-L (1 NARRC race)
· Watkins Glen International, Watkins Glen, NY - WGI (1 double NARRC race weekend)

Only the best six (7) race finishes will count towards the championship. Of course the regions are free to have other non-NARRC regionals.

2. NARRC races should not be held less than three weeks apart.

The regions scheduling committees must take that into account when putting together the schedule and negotiating with the racetracks.

3. All NARRC races should all be restricted regionals.

The purpose of this is to give the majority of our entrants more track time. Non-NARRC races can be unrestricted regionals.

I think we can do this with the following seven run groups that had at least 10 unique entries in 2008:


:

SRF, EP, FP, GP, GTL
FC, FF, FV, NCF
GT-1, AS, ITE
ITA, C, 7, SPO
ITB, S, R,
SM, SPU
SSM, STU
Yes, that means 10 different entrants could have signed up for 10 different races, but we’ll get to that later. These are also the only classes available to have a champion because

Other classes that would fit into these 7 are fine; otherwise they take too much track time away time for minimal entries.

For 2011 and beyond we would need to see the number of entries in 2010 for all classes. If they make it to 10 unique, they are in. If those that are there now go away, so be it.

4. Championships should only be awarded in competitive classes .

I don’t think that all classes deserve to have champions. Many have few competitors. I am asking for 10 unique entrants in the course of a season be a qualifying criteria for a champion to be declared.

5. Track time should be maximized.

The examples below are minimum requirements.

If the track is open 9AM to 6PM a one day single should have a 20 minute qualifying and a 30 minute timed race, minimum. If racing can start at 8 then do a 40 minute race.

A two day single should have the same schedule as a single, with the 2nd qualifying being a qualifying race for the second day’s 15 minute mixed group warm-up and 45 minute (minimum) race.

A two day double can either be done as two singles or as a two day single with the qualifying race scored as a regular race.

6. Eliminate “Bonus Points” for visiting some number of tracks or running some number of events.

The (ahem) point of these incentives was to get people to travel or enter one more race. Maybe they did but there was not a big change in statistics. You want points, you run races.

7. You must earn at least 800 points to be declared a champion.

You have to race more often or you have to do very well less often. In 2008 there were only 6 classes that had more than 5 drivers enter 5 races or more (ITA, ITB, ITS, SM, SRF, SSM). This will be tough as it does away with the bonus points and there is one less finish to count towards the total.

8. Give meaningful awards.

A fee will still be collected from all entrants of the events listed above. This fee is used to pay for all NARRC year-end trophies and awards. Trophies and awards will go to all 23 eligible class champions. If any money is distributed it will be proportional to the champion eligible classes number of entries, and rounded to the nearest $10. Some portion of the NARRC fee will be retained by the series for administrative and publicity purposes.

Please feel free to repost in other forums, but feedback should go to Andy Bettancourt.

ner88
09-10-2009, 09:24 AM
Sorry Dave, I don't see anything in your post that interests me.
Looks like the same old dead series.

lateapex911
09-10-2009, 10:17 AM
Dave, why do you give NHIS two double NARRCs?

dickita15
09-10-2009, 04:21 PM
Dave you forgot the fast formula cars.

Dave Zaslow
09-11-2009, 08:08 AM
Jerry,

I am not trying to recreate NARRC, just make it a better competition for those who recognize it as a worthwhile goal. I think we need a divisional regional championship. Maybe that means adding Summit and Beaverrun. I think a NARRC regional should be different than any other regional.

Jake,

I am looking at the 2008 season for which I have a full excel spreadsheet. New England had two singles and one double at NHMP. The double had 1/3 more entries. This year they have two doubles and a single. The one double already run has also been ahead of the single by about the same percentage. I thought the large core of New England Region racers would like having four NARRC points opportunities grouped into two weekends.

Dick,

The bar I set was 10 unique entrants in a class. The FA's only had 3, the FM's only 4 in 2008. 2009 shows 5 FA's and 2 FM's so far. As far as I am concerned they are playing elsewhere or not at all. Either they fit into one of the seven run groups above, or they go to an unrestricted regional or a national event.

All,

Remember that this is not just an IT issue, but one that we need to reach out to all the classes. I've looked at the SM and SRF sites and don't see much discussion. There is no NARRC.com Forum. If you know of other discussions I'd like to take a look.

DZ

Racer Chris
09-11-2009, 01:20 PM
Dave,
Don't even consider the possibility of SRF being grouped with Production! It isn't recommended by SCCA and is just plain dangerous. The only other class SRF could be combined with IMO is Spec Miata.
I like running my prod car with SM, SSM, or any IT class much better than with SRF.

wdether
09-13-2009, 05:18 PM
Dave,
Don't even consider the possibility of SRF being grouped with Production! It isn't recommended by SCCA and is just plain dangerous. The only other class SRF could be combined with IMO is Spec Miata.
I like running my prod car with SM, SSM, or any IT class much better than with SRF.

Dave,
I agree with Chris, SRF and Prod does not make a good match. I also think SPO would be better with GT1-3, AS, and ITE. SPU could go with ITA, C, & 7.

Having fewer race groups than the customary nine, that are the norm now, is a good idea and would provide more track time.

ner88
09-13-2009, 09:35 PM
Dave, that's my point, we do need to recreate NARRC, it doesn't need band-aids it needs major surgery.
The points system doesn't work, the schedule sucks and it's not drawing racers.

lateapex911
09-18-2009, 03:34 PM
Two items, some probably covered already, but:

I just looked at the schedule out of curiosity. FIVE NHMS events! F that! That's nuts.

Last year, I thought "Why not see if I can win the NARRC Championship?" It rewards consistency, and finishes above all else, and that hasn't always been my strength. So, that was my focus. I went to NHMS a few times. Not a fan of the track, like my buds who hang there though, so it was cool. I went to Pocono, ONLY because of the whole wacky points. I hate, despise and abhor Pocono. But I had to go to earn the points.

So I reflected after the season about my 'fun' level, and of course, I had fun. It's racing! And winning the NARRC was cool, and even though there weren't 50 guys in my class, the one guy who was my 'rival' is a really solid racer and wrench, so beating him was the challenge.

But this year, I decided other challenges beckoned, like conquering new tracks and traveling to cool tracks.

And it's been a great season, lot's of fun, and I feel as though I'm growing as a driver/team boss/wrench/bottle washer/rig driver. And I'm not going to the same track 5 times just for points.

Different strokes, etc, but to me, in many classes, the NARRC thing has become a game of showing up and finishing well, rather than enjoyable racing at interesting tracks.

Some of that could be fixed, but I realize that some of it is just the way it is.

But FIVE races at NHMS!?!?!? sheesh.

ner88
09-18-2009, 03:48 PM
I said it before, 5 races, 5 tracks.

Robert Zecca
09-18-2009, 04:22 PM
Can't we all just be friends!

My car is quickier than your car.

ner88
09-18-2009, 05:13 PM
Can't friends disagree? ;)