Golf spec

[Flyinglizard]

http://www.750mc.co.uk/F-golf-gti.php
Check out this . Spec VW. Lots or cars.
The cars still have some value, when they are even, fun , and dont break.
I tried to put this together for The Fl. thing but every one wantted to run their own thing. I am all for it.
I will even put it together if I get 6 cars that want to play .
Mike Ogren , FL. Interested/ Email me
[email protected]

[Knestis]

The 750 Motor Club has a long history of cheap racing series in Britain. They had a "hot hatchback" series back when I first stared reading Autosport in teh '80s that looked like it had HUGE fields. We just don't have enough road racing in the US for this kind of niche marketing, no matter how much sense each idea might make on its own.

K

[ECR]

Yellow 03 GTI from Fl region. Count me in IF standard IT mods are allowed( header, coil overs,etc)




Sounds like a good idea.

David Leira

[Flyinglizard]

Hi David. Thanks.
At this point in time, the VW ,ITB cars have traded around for less than 5000$. They all cost at least twice that when built. Exzample the Miata. Cost is about the same to build, and they pass around for 9- 20K. It is all about the value of racing. 40 cars , going the same speed is the best race, regardless of the actual speed.
There must be a lot of VWs sitting around because they are less than competitive , at this point in time. Who wants to spend the entry cash and the weekend, just to drive around with a few midpack cars? Good in it's own sense. But what if.. you had 10 or 20 Vws, all on three wheels, in turn 17?
With the 16V being outclassed in ITA, the Mk 3 on megasquirt, going well in ITB. Maybe it is time to return to the old ," Golf Cup" style of race.
All VW ITB or 16V,ITA cars will be elgible/ If the Mk 3 proves too fast, with squirt, maybe the stock D fant will be allowed.
I am open to suggestions, keeping the racers happy is very important.
I have one car, maybe two. When I get 6 cars, I will approach CFR, SCCA , to put us together and give it a try.
WE will try balance the cars with weight, per the English version., for starting values. I will ask for engine build sheets. The goal will be to help the slower cars get up to speed.
I know that many hate spec car racing. But after racing 30 years,it is not what you race, it is the race among 5 or 6 of your best friends, all waiting for the others to make a mistake, laughing as you go by, the spinning, dirt tossing, car.
These events are the remembered races, not the qualify up front, and drive away races.
Hand signals are mandatory.
MM

[jmracer17]

Sounds like allot of fun. When funds and time come back i would be interested!

[Knestis]

You're talking about ITB cars, with the exception of the 16v, that can already be competitive. (I don't buy the thesis that the MkII - as a make/model option - can't be competitive there.) Seems a shame to suck entries out of an existing class to create another smaller one. How about doing a class-within-a-class among the VW fans in the area...? Those same six guys could be racing among themselves within the current structure. Heck - everyone could put a six-pack in the kitty and the winner takes home the brew loot. :)

More seriously, I'd be curious to hear more about why you think VWs are "less than competitive."

K

[Grumpa]

I have an '83 ITB GTI that I have been tossing around the idea of building to a "C" Rabbit because the car really isn't competitive with the newer chassis' that abound in "B". An ITGTI class would be the FWD equivalent to IT7, which at least has its own class at the IT Spectacular. Knestis makes a very valid point with his above comment about road racing, however, were this idea to come to fruition as a stand alone, I'd be in. I have to agree with Lizard about racing with friends and all the fun and bragging rights that go with it, and with ECR - stay within the IT rules.

You have to remember that the Cup series were a marketing ploy for the manufacturers to sell cars, now you might want to look at marketing this type of series to newbies. Getting started in motorsports is difficult enough, picking the wrong car just compounds the aggravation. The opportunity to race in an "equal" car would provide newbies a chance to get their feet wet and perhaps save themselves a lot of time, effort, and money. Rent-a-Rides could be a viable option in this class also. My $.02, FWIW.

Knestis,
Just read your reply about the A2 chassis. My only experience is with the A1 chassis, which at best is only 25 years old, and it is not competitive in "B". Non crossflow head, flexie flyer front end, underpowered and less aero than a concrete block, it's hard to justify "B" racing when midpack is the best I can expect. At least in "C" I have a chance to race up front.

[Flyinglizard]

The last regional I was at @ sebring, there were 3 VWs in ITB, 1 in ITA, and maybe 1 ITC. maybe not. I dont think that we could thin this out very much. The cars just dont come out.
David had his MK 3 pretty fast and won.
James. Does your 16V have a header? I came by to talk to you ,but you were pretty busy. We were running the Miata, not a DUB.
RE Rabbit MK 1, It seems very doable to allow the 10/1 engine,and adjust weight.
I would try this , with the IT cams in your cars for starters.
I would eventually like for all the 8V cars to run the same cam, and have the same compression ratio(10/1). Not right away, but to keep it close, as soon as cars made it time to try it. If the cars are just fine ,as is, we'll leave them alone. We could group buy for about 100$ each or a little less. The same cam and compression, would be ideal,IMHO
Techtonics cuts my custom cams for my Ministock. Nice cams. We could easily balance the the solid cam cars and the hydro with the same cam grind for both cars. If the 16V runs the stock exhaust manifold,and stock cams, and they will run real close. I had a stock, lightened ,track 16V that turned the exact times as my ITB Golf. 2:48 Long. Sebring
Even the 16V, 7 in wheels might work out(MAYBE NOT) , as the 16V carries about 60# more front end weight.
I would hope that all could run on 6in wheels and open tires.
I dont think that balancing the cars will be very hard.
I would guess that most of the old 1.8, 16V, have been turned into 8V cars a while ago. A low dollar 16V should be our standard measuring block. I hope that most of the cars could go about 2:46-2:47 @ Sebring.
Please post any thoughts . Goal, is close, repeatable , cheap race cars,that all go about the same speed. MM

[Knestis]

>> The last regional I was at @ sebring, there were 3 VWs in ITB, 1 in ITA, and maybe 1 ITC. maybe not. I dont think that we could thin this out very much. The cars just dont come out.
David had his MK 3 pretty fast and won.

So what kind of cars are running up front in B, besides David's MkIII...? Are we sure that everyone is legal...?

>> Goal, is close, repeatable , cheap race cars,that all go about the same speed. MM

How about ITB...?

K

[jlinfert]

Duece Keene, when he runs, generally takes the win down here and his car is ABSOLUTELY legal (and 200 lbs heavier than a MK3).

[jmracer17]

Mike,
Its bone stock (and very very very tired). I have a header for it but not going to put it on until I rebuild the motor (which wont be for a while). We tried chips but they made the car bog coming out of the corner (at least at sebring short) Under this program, what is the weight difference for the 16?? And, is it different from the 1.8 to 2.0? Would we run the weight as it is in the GCR?

[Knestis]

I got beat by Deuce at the SIC last year. He brings the whole package, no doubt.

But I'm also pretty confident that - as a driver - I left enough time on the table at RR to have made up most of that difference.

Frankly, I just don't think that more classes are a good thing for SCCA club racing. And all it would take to "qualify up front and run away" in a spec class like is described here, is EXACTLY what's required to do so in ITB today - budget, engineering, testing, and talent.

Look at NASA's Spec classes - most notably e30 and the 944s. Everything was copacetic in the early seasons until competitive pressures started encouraging the guys/gals who wanted to run up front to go crazy - by building real (gasp!) race engines, for example.

It's not rules that control costs: It's low levels of financial commitment required to run up front. That comes primarily from low class subscription - since high levels of participation go hand-in-hand with competition, and typically, higher numbers - so the only way to "assure" low costs to run up front is to have small classes in which entrants aren't compelled to really duke it out for wins.

So the upshot is that, as long as Spec VW isn't a success, it could be cheap. If it catches on and someone gets serious about it, it will stop being cheap.

K

[Flyinglizard]

We ran two NASA races this Summer,(Teen Challenge SM). Hyperfest, and MidOhio. Lots if cars. There was only one VW in some PT class. Lots of E30, 944, spec cars. The races were non stop battles. NASA does a good job. They seem to bring a lot of big money cars. The spec racing was very tight and well subcribed.
There are more E30 cars than CFR gets for ITB.
I am sure that we can run a small Spec V, ITV, class, with the A 1 cars, 8V, A2cars and the stock manifold, gearset, A2 16V.
Basic rule set; A1 ,1.8 8V, any head, 10/1 compression, spec cam or stock cam. 3.94 final gear. Any header, weight .2270#
A2 8V, Hydro head, 10/1, any header. 2270# 3.94 gear
A2 16V, stock cams, stock exhaust, stock gearset, 2270# (3.67x091 gear)
I would discourage the 4.22 gear, because it is NLA, and stuff explodes sooner with it. I am up in the air with welded diffs. I love racing with them but they create their own problems, both driving style and prep issues.
Of course, the weights will be adjusted to balance any markedly fast model combination. The goal is equality. I know that it is a bit to swallow , if you spent 20k to dominate ITB.( our ministock VW had 75# added to reduce our domination, this year)
I am not opposed to back dating the Scirocco with the hydro 1.8 @ 2350#.
If you have looked for any 1.5 or 1.6 parts , you may like this route.
I am aware of the anti Spec people and respect that opinion. I like to race, the closer the cars, the better the race.
I am open to suggestions,(that are printable)
I will do all that I can to make this work and fun.

[jmracer17]

A2 16V, stock cams, stock exhaust, stock gearset, 2270# (3.67x091 gear)


Is this for the 1.8? What would it add (if any) for the 2.0?

[Knestis]

Watching with interest, then...

Taking minor liberties, I've pulled out the outcomes that you anticipate for this venture:

** Increase the resale value of VW racing cars with prep levels similar to IT

** Attract fields of "10 or 20" cars "going the same speed"

** Get a lot of VWs that are "sitting around because they are less than competitive" out on the race track

** Find a place for the 16v (1.8, 2.0, both?) to race where it won't be "outclassed"

** Balance the cars with weight and engine build sheets to achieve on-track equity among "all VW ITB or 16V, ITA cars, and maybe 2.0 with some restrictions

** Keep the racers happy; help get the slower cars get up to speed

Is that an accurate summary?

K

[Flyinglizard]

K. Pretty well summarized.Thanks,
RE, 2.0, that should work, but will need a lot of weight, maybe 200#. It makes a lot more torque than the 1.8. Long run, the 1.8 will cost less tires, brakes and overall weight. 6 in wide wheels. though for now.
I will consider tires and wheels , when I get info on current fitments.
I wil try to get the run group in ITB. The target times are there.
If someone wants to start a Yahoo group for info sharing, lets get it going. [email protected] 352/428/8983 cell.

[jmracer17]

I like it. I would love to race with a bunch of VW's that are relativly close in speed. For me, not only would it be a fun group to run in, but it would help me to learn set-up and improve on my driving skills as the idea is to have cars that are close to the same, correct?

[Flyinglizard]

Heres where we're at. "VW Cup" very similar concept to UK Cup.
I have a Note into VW for some help , NA yet , but they have answered me inthe past.
I have a tire deal pending withFalken tire. for the 615 tire at about 75$ or less. We will test that tire very soon on our Chumpcar. But it looks fine in other racing.
Racers, Please email me with intent, car specs and some lap times. lets get it going for early 2010. Mike Ogren ,
[email protected] 352/428/8983 cell.

[GTIspirit]

Too bad my geographic location is outside the area under discussion.



A2 16V, stock cams, stock exhaust, stock gearset, 2270# (3.67x091 gear)
I would discourage the 4.22 gear, because it is NLA, and stuff explodes sooner with it.

I'm curious about this point. Since it's allowed by the IT rules why the aversion? Concerns about engine longevity rather than performance gains?

The 4.2 R&P is still available:
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=020409143AG
And shorter R&P from an 8V GTI should also fit for something around 3.9.

[Flyinglizard]

The 4.22 works well at very few tracks, runs the weak 5th gear too hard, too long, and if the cam and ECU are near stock, wont go much, if any faster. The mechanical drag(tooth angle, OD) and bearing load onthe tiny 5th gear, negate much advantage. Power thru the larger 3rd, and 4gears last a lot longer. It just makes more noise, followed by silence. The 16V may like it more, and I want to keep the cars even. If they run the same RPM range, they will stay close.

The 3.89 and 3.94 gear is about optimal for most tires and tracks, IMHO.

[GTIspirit]

The 4.22 works well at very few tracks, runs the weak 5th gear too hard, too long....

The 4.25 R&P I referenced uses the stock 16V 5th gear. It is the 8V 4th gear that must be changed, as noted, because the splines on the pinion are a different size than those on the stock 16V 4th gear but the teeth are otherwise identical. Top speed with the 4.25R&P is a theoretical 120ish mph, which I think is the aero limit of the car anyhow, so I don't see how having the shorter R&P would affect top speed.

I see the 3.67 as a handicap on the 16V since the 1.8L 16V has less bottom end grunt than an 1.8L 8V which has what, a 3.89 or 3.94 R&P.

Good luck with the series, I was just asking to understand the advantages/disadvantages of the shorter R&P in a 1.8L 16V.

[mgyip]

I see the 3.67 as a handicap on the 16V since the 1.8L 16V has less bottom end grunt than an 1.8L 8V which has what, a 3.89 or 3.94 R&P.

In the A2 chassis, the 1.8L 8V was factory equipped (detuned?) with a 3.67 FD as was the 1.8L and 2.0L 16v. In the A2 chassis, the Rabbit GTi was equipped with either the 3.89 or 3.94 FD which helped the cars tremendously BUT VW's insistence on using a relatively short 5th gear made the cars quite buzzy and annoying at highway speeds.

IIRC, the 1.8L 16v had identical torque figures to the 1.8L 8v bretheren. However the 16v made so much more top-end torque that it gave the impression that the car was "flat" at low rpms. To experience a multi-valve engine that is truly flat when it is off-cam, drive an E30 M3 or a Mercedes 190E 2.3 16v...

[Flyinglizard]

Does anyone still run a 4.25 gear?? I have not seenor heard one since Moroso, about 2001. I put a couple in ice racers to pull the tall studded tires.
FWIW, this may morph into the "VW Cup USA"
Falken and VW have replied initially and I wait for ideas from both. MM

[shwah]

Chiming in with the same comments I had at vortex.

Good luck with the plan, but I disagree with the justification that VWs are not competitive or attractive to race currently - especially in ITB. The A2 and A3 have proven to be very competitive, and the A1 IMO is actually a better choice at some tracks. I agree with Kirk that this could potentially weaken current fields a bit. All of these issues are likely quite regional in nature, and there is a good chance this works well in some areas and not others.

To the ITA discussion - I think the 1.8 is the way to go, as 200# is a lot to overcome, and the lower flowing 2.0 heads make it unlikely to make up the difference in hp. I think it would be fun to see what I could do with an ITA car, but now that I am moving away from CIS-E it will be hard to convert over to 16v in the future.

[Flyinglizard]

I have never said that the ITB cars are not competitive. You can run the same car in ITB or VW Cup. The cam change is in the future, if at all.
The days of 30 car ITB fields are gone. Wake up and look around. The racers/drivers have gone to SM. The engineers have gone to Prod. Times change.

There are two forms of motorsports, drivers' classes and engineers' classes. IT is now an engineers' class with new cars better than the old cars.
I am trying to keep the ITC cars running , the ITB cars , along with the ITA 16v cars . on the track for a reasonable cost. That is all. Dont make it more than it is.
I want the " Vw Cup" to be a racers class, not and endless $10,000 engineering problem, that IT is now.
Race what ever you want. You can leave the car on the trailer for VW Cup. MM

[Knestis]

>> You can leave the car on the trailer for VW Cup.

But I'd propose that we all ought to be worried about the impact on club racing more broadly, of the proliferation of niche classes, series, or "cups" - particularly when rules divulge in ways that make it difficult or impossible to cross over, or where actual events - dates on-track - start poaching off one-another.

If "Spec Golf" were a class-within-a-category, this could be avoided and could in fact help BOLSTER existing IT fields. Make an agreement to run on inexpensive tires, even define specs that are something less than balls-out IT preparation (say, no aftermarket ECUs?), put stickers on the cars in the Cup, and run among the rest of the IT crowd...? A good thing.

New rules (e.g., different weights) and class stickers, even running in the same race group at SCCA Regionals? Worrisome from the 30,000-foot view.

K

[lateapex911]

>> You can leave the car on the trailer for VW Cup.

But I'd propose that we all ought to be worried about the impact on club racing more broadly, of the proliferation of niche classes, series, or "cups" - particularly when rules divulge in ways that make it difficult or impossible to cross over, or where actual events - dates on-track - start poaching off one-another.

If "Spec Golf" were a class-within-a-category, this could be avoided and could in fact help BOLSTER existing IT fields. Make an agreement to run on inexpensive tires, even define specs that are something less than balls-out IT preparation (say, no aftermarket ECUs?), put stickers on the cars in the Cup, and run among the rest of the IT crowd...? A good thing.

New rules (e.g., different weights) and class stickers, even running in the same race group at SCCA Regionals? Worrisome from the 30,000-foot view.

K

Ding ding DING.

Unless you plan to run and popularize the "Cup" in NASA or elsewhere, it makes NO sense to have rules that allow/require cars to exceed the prep limitations of IT.

A major carrot to the SM ruleset is the easy double dipping into ITA with the Miatas. Lots of regions see a lot of double dipping. SF Region saw so much that they created a THIRD class called ITX. Just for any IT car (that includes SM) so they could double dip. So, in the SF region Sm drivers are triple dipping.

I know you want to include lots of models and have them be on equal footing, but once you start opening up prep rules, you've opened a Pandoras box. I think you'll be way better off keeping it simple, and leaving the outlier cars that will need extra allowances off the list.

(Second, the 30 car field comment is rather regionally accurate/not accurate. Summit on Labor Day had a HUGE ITB field. Heck a 30 car SSm fiield or a 30 car SM field is a very good turnout, even for them, these days.)

[Flyinglizard]

Florida region has OKed the first date of Nov 13- 15th!! I dont know if I can get my car ready.. I will if I get some takers for the first show.

Per response; It makes sense to not exclude true IT cars. I have had only one inquiry about converting an ITC car. But withthe open Vin rule ,it is not to far out of line. It seems to be a non issue today tho.
Falken tire is very interested. It will be about one week until I get to the head guy, with a decent proposal.
Florida region has OKed a run group 5, P2, (under 2.8litre)
ITB is group 6, plenty of laps if you care to double dip.
I have a rough rule set, with the weights, pretty much done. I willpost it here to get yelled at some more. Nothing is set in stone. I just want to avoid a ringer car. I have pretty good data for the 1.8 and even have found some mk 3 stuff. Tristan may have cost the mk 3 about 40 pounds tho... Basic #per CC with an RPM value.
MM