New Roll cage Questions

[Toplevel]

Hello, just looking for some opinions on my new cage. Its a prefabbed cage from kirk racing, so everything was precut(for the most part). I jave it tacked in place right now, making sure everything fits correctly.

Is there any problem with where the door hoops mount to the floor at? To me it seems like the door hoops should be further forward, like more into the dash. But it is pushed forward all the way it will go.

Im guessing it will be ok, because i dont really see rules against that, just want some opinions from you guys. Oh and just so you know i have thoroughly read the rule book on cage rules, about whats allowed, minimum angles the bars must be at and such.

OHH and im short, so thats why the seat is mounted so far forward.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/91/l_5f2d8c48aa40444b9af986cbfdd03ab4.jpg

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/76/l_91b00a1396bf43fca9ad681dbb975dab.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/92/l_8e6e27fbcde84813a87a1e17368b19ba.jpg

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/65/l_bd6d18c366c64bac9aa809f33fa27b8c.jpg

[Andy Bettencourt]

I hate the threads that ask for opinions on stuff that is impossible to correct for free. Cages are so 'personal'. Pre-fabbed stuff is always a compromise and people usually choose them for cost reasons.

Feedback (all IMHO):

- Have someone do the optional 7th and 8th points to the firewall. From your foot to your knee is exposed. BAD.

- Conncect your NASCAR bars. I would bet most cars would open those up like a tuna can if you got t-boned. Not seeing much side impact protection in that at all.

- Tha dash bar looks WAY to close but I guess you won't hit your hands on it

- How are you going to mount your seat-back-brace? The cage is REALLY far from your aluminum seat...

It's always a cost vs. benefit thing...spend a little extra now.

[Gibson]

It is my understanding that if you prefer you could remove the dash, slide the cage forward, then fit the dash back over it, is that correct?

And I second both the previous suggestions, the door bars need reinforced and you need more leg protection.

Edit: On second glance, I see it is as far forward as the A pillars and roof will allow.

[seckerich]

I have to agree with Andy here. You need to make the best of a bad situation. By that I mean that this cage is barely safe and is an injury waiting to happen. Way too far away from the main hoop for seat brace and belt mounting. Front down tubes leave you exposed to get your knees crushed. Best you could do if you use this is to run the tubes to the optional firewall mounts in a V shape. One from the top front of the door bars down to firewall and one from the lower door bars forward. This will close up the area and still count as one mounting point per side. Might loop the shoulder bar forward in the main hoop to cut down the distance instead of just a straight tube. Most drivers loop it back for more clearance so you would still be legal. Box the down tubes of the front hoop to the rockers, floor only is not safe. Car looks too nice to have that cage. Might contact a cage builder in your area and see if they would just bend you some front down tubes that go more forward. Sorry if this sounds cruel but I have seen the A pillar driven over toward the tunnel and your legs will never be the same.

[Toplevel]

Thanx guys. Thats exactly what im looking for. Food for thought!

[ed325its]

I agree with Steve. Have someone design and bend new front down tubes that move them and that knee breaker front brace behind the dash.

[joeg]

It is perfectly legal as is, but since you asked for opinions, everything said above should be taken in like a sponge.

I like the idea of extending the A-pillar tubes to another mounting point, but I don't think your knees are at risk with the cross bar.

You could actually cut out the main hoop brace behind the seat and "flip it" to have a better seat brace distance to span.

[ddewhurst]

One more point about the horizontal tube in the main hoop being the LONG distance fron your seat/shoulders. Shoulder belts STRETCH a GREAT during a frontal impact/crash. You do not want that long distance that you now have. The longer the shoulder belt the longer they will stretch. Also with the vertical distance of the horizontal tube be sure the height is correct relative to your back plane/shoulder height per the GCR/manufactures shoulder belt guide lines. Please google Issac head & neck restraint & watch the video of their sled craches. You'll say to yourself, WOW, with a great deal of understanding.

We ALL like to do things OUR way. If you have an acquaintance with some race car experience please use him/her as a mentor. You'll be ahead in the end :023:

[seckerich]

What area are you located in?. If you are close I will bend you new front down tubes if you buy the material. I am in NC.

[Toplevel]

im in NJ

[gran racing]

One more point about the horizontal tube in the main hoop being the LONG distance fron your seat/shoulders. Shoulder belts STRETCH a GREAT during a frontal impact/crash. You do not want that long distance that you now have.

Not saying that this is inaccurate but somewhat interesting as Gulick and I noticed that in the new BMW AMLS car they showcased, the belt mounting point was waaaaay back. If I recall correctly, in the trunk or thereabouts.

[GTIspirit]

...Best you could do if you use this is to run the tubes to the optional firewall mounts in a V shape. One from the top front of the door bars down to firewall and one from the lower door bars forward. This will close up the area and still count as one mounting point per side.

Is this allowed in IT? I see a lot of pictures of cages with a V-shaped arrangement to the dash panel, but the rules specifically say one tube....

9.4.C.3.


Cars competing in Improved Touring, Showroom Stock, Spec Miata, and Touring may extend one tube, from each front down tube, forward to the firewall but not penetrating the firewall.

I don't see how the V-arrangement can be considered one tube, or is this legal because one tube comes from the front downtube and one tube comes from the front baseplate???? Since any number of tubes can connect to the limited number of baseplates......

9.4.G.6.


Any number of additional tube elements is permitted within the boundaries of the minimum cage structure.

[GTIspirit]

Oops, double post.

[betamotorsports]

Is this allowed in IT? I see a lot of pictures of cages with a V-shaped arrangement to the dash panel, but the rules specifically say one tube...Incorrect. Figure 16 on page 149 shows one tube but none of the wording in 9.4.2 for a Showroom Stock cage or in 9.4.3 for a Touring cage mentions one tube. I would allow a V forward brace if the apex of the V met at one mounting point on the firewall - particularly in this case.

EDIT: Never mind, one tube forward to the firewall is correct. I was reading the Appendix. Sorry for the confusion.

[CRallo]

Incorrect. Figure 16 on page 149 shows one tube but none of the wording in 9.4.2 for a Showroom Stock cage or in 9.4.3 for a Touring cage mentions one tube. I would allow a V forward brace if the apex of the V met at one mounting point on the firewall - particularly in this case.

Current GCR? My understanding is that wording was changed...

[joeg]

Long Shoulder Straps--All WRC Rally cars run the shoulder straps back to the rear suspension cage cross tube; there is no rule prohibiting such length in the GCR for our racing. My new FIA Belts have very lengthy shoulder belts.

That being said (and have tried both) you are much much better off with a short shoulder belt length and you can feel the difference in "security" even without experiencing a crash.

[seckerich]

The "any number of tubes" does cover extending to the allowed firewall pickup.

[GTIspirit]

While the electronic copy of the GCR is not the official one, I pulled the rules quote from the 2009 GCR on the SCCA website. Is there a different version available that doesn't have the wording I quoted from the 2009GCR.pdf rulebook?

One tube sounds pretty clear to me, even clearer considering the any number of tubes doesn't extend to the allowed firewall, err, dash panel pickup. How can it be interpreted to mean two tubes going to the dash panel, even if they do only touch the dash panel at one point?

[Mike Mackaman]

X2 on Steve's comments. The first thing I looked at was the location on your header. Steve is way more qualified than I, but I too would bend you new front tubes to get everything in a better place. These things can look scary to someone who has seen enough after pictures!

Mike

[betamotorsports]

Current GCR? My understanding is that wording was changed...The 2009 hard copy GCR I have does not specify in the the rule text a single forward tube. I also looked through the FastTracks up through July 2009 and there were no revisions that I found.

EDIT: Never mind, one tube forward to the firewall is correct. I was reading the Appendix. Sorry for the confusion.

[Knestis]

Not saying that this is inaccurate but somewhat interesting as Gulick and I noticed that in the new BMW AMLS car they showcased, the belt mounting point was waaaaay back. If I recall correctly, in the trunk or thereabouts.

Mount per your belt manufacturer's directions. Some use polypropylene, others nylon. They have different stretch characteristics.

K

[Gibson]

Only one tube can connect directly to the firewall, but you could still run a triangulated brace that connects to that tube right at the firewall. That would give you much better foot protection and still adhere to the letter of the law.

[CRallo]

Only one tube can connect directly to the firewall, but you could still run a triangulated brace that connects to that tube right at the firewall. That would give you much better foot protection and still adhere to the letter of the law.

I'm about to go read this all for myself, but it seems that some would disagree... :/

[ddewhurst]

***Only one tube can connect directly to the firewall, but you could still run a triangulated brace that connects to that tube right at the firewall. That would give you much better foot protection and still adhere to the letter of the law.***

+ 1 on this as ^ stated.

Connect a second or third tube to the ONE tube that attaches to the firewall & all is legal.

Connect a second or third tube to the firewall or firewall mounting plate & your illegal.

[seckerich]

The usual silly SCCA cage rule BS but David is correct. Not going to turn your question into a rule thread. It has been protested in the past with extra tubes to the firewall point and it stood. ARRC 2002 if I remember correctly. Make the cage safe and go race.

The tube could be a loop with the bent part forward and be one tube. Cage rules have more gray areas than you ever want to see me exploit.

[Toplevel]

Only one tube can connect directly to the firewall, but you could still run a triangulated brace that connects to that tube right at the firewall. That would give you much better foot protection and still adhere to the letter of the law.

Thats exactly what i will be doing in that area.

[Speed Raycer]

IIRC, the "may extend one tube" rule wasn't a problem until they actually added wording 2 (?) years ago. If you look right above it at the AS rules, I think thats where it comes from. AS must have one tube (on each side IIRC) extending to the firewall from the cage. Looks like they pulled out the "ust" and replaced it with "ay". Good enough for the regional guys ;)

Personally, it's a BS rule. Possibly one of the more important areas of protection and now we're compromising the design. There's very rarely a competitive advantage to it because of all of the crap you have to work around on the drivers side (fuse boxes, wiring and oh yeah, that clutch and brake pedal sytem) keeps you from getting to any frame or really structural stuff thats also attached to the firewall.

Yes, the work around is attaching triangulation bars to the One tube instead of to the firewall pad.

To the OP, I'd suggest taking a long hard look at what you have invested. This may be where custom is the way to go. There are several builders up in the NJ area. Havaspeed.com comes to mind, but I can't recall if he's in Jersey or not.

[europeanspec]

Longer belts that stretch more would lengthen the time of negative acceleration and lessen the force on the body. They could save your life in an inelastic collision such as straight into a wall. It depends on your cockpit setup and geometry on whether longer or shorter belts would be better.

[lateapex911]

When I had my car teched for it's logbook, I had the belts mounted about 18" back from the seat, per the belt makers directions for angle, etc, and the tech refused to sign off. They had to be ripped out and a new bar welded into the cage right behind the seat for the belts exclusively. fun fun fun.

Triangulate that cage my friend! And those angled door pars give me a 'parallelogram' feeling, and thats not wonderful. Perhaps some vertical connectors or a tube running through them forming an X?.

[lateapex911]

Some ideas, easy to do.

[Gibson]

Triangulate that cage my friend! And those angled door pars give me a 'parallelogram' feeling, and thats not wonderful. Perhaps some vertical connectors or a tube running through them forming an X?.

That is what I was thinking up by the feet. Gussets are invaluable also, strengthen a cage by an amazing amount.

[Toplevel]

Resurecting older thread....

Any cage builder in or near NJ/PA?
I'm going to keep the back half and want from the main hoop forward done.