Why the aversion to E85?

[RSI]

Motorsports in the NW are taking a hit because of the environmental impact. Seems that E85 would help that image a bit.

My experience in my car is that the car makes 2-3hp less on 100 octane though. The nice thing about E85 is its Cheap. I pay $1.85 a gallon for E85 versus $7 a gallon for race fuel.

Just curious why E85 on NA cars isnt being allowed. I get how if we were talking actual methanol and other forms of alcohol it could be a power adder.

[RSI]

anything?

[bonespec]

Since E85 can vary from between E70 and E85, how do you plan on testing each batch and retuning the motor for it????

You can buy E85 in a sealed drum, it's not cheap.

Works GREAT with turbocharged cars......but is NOT enviromental friendly.

[jhooten]

The club is looking at the fuel rules and what needs to be done to allow alternate fuels. Nothing happens overnight.

[CRallo]

Well it might not be totally green, but it seems better than gas... What's so bad about it? Atleast its renewable...

[shwah]

The tractor plowing, planting, harvesting, truck/train transporting, refining part takes more energy per energy potential in the fuel than gasoline.

It can be done better, but the way we do it, it isn't green.

[RSI]

this is so funny, I want to talk why its not in use, and how its good for the IMAGE of racing and some folks wanna talk about how its not green and its an inefficient source of fuel...

The funny thing is in this world of ours is that image is half the battle, for everyone who lives in states where motorsports are cool because this whole climate change thing just aint gonna happen...cool.

But the truth of the matter is that Portland International Raceway was almost lost because there were barely enough people in our city of 1 million to see any value, and all they saw was polluting cars and people who didnt care about the environment.

All politics aside...a more environmental image sure would help us out here in the PNW...

As for testing the E85 I use a hydrometer to check all fuels. Our local oil company carson fuel has even offered to sell it to us in E100 drums to blend our own E85. THey were willing to sell a 55 gallon drum for something around $2.10 a gallon last I checked.

[bonespec]

If allowed to run E85, will class rules allow for 50% larger fuel injectors to handle the extra needed volume?

Locally, here in Cincinnati OH, E85 is only a dime cheaper than 87. So 30 cents a gallon cheaper than 93 octane, but you use 25-30% more on the street. I was looking at it for the street motor I'm building, 13.7:1 compression D15 nonVTEC for the street and strip.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/bonespec/Honda/D15Baby8/Part%205/PA150013.jpg

I've seen a electric tool for measuring and testing, easier and more accurate than a hydrometer.

How about making your own race fuel? Last time I checked the federal permit was only $100 and some "consumption" was allowed.

[Duc]

If allowed to run E85, will class rules allow for 50% larger fuel injectors to handle the extra needed volume?


This is definitely a sticky subject. The increased volume of fuel required would mandate, at minimum, the capability to tune FI, and in most cases larger injectors. Most carburetors should be able to re-jet for it. Another disadvantage over pump gas is the amount of energy per mass of ethonal vs. pump gas. Here is a good comparison: Ethanol Properties (http://www.drivingethanol.org/motorsports/racing_fuel_characteristics.aspx)

The reason you can use E85 in most modern cars is that they have compensation tables based on calculated ethanol percentage. Some of the oem's (Ford in particular) have been supporting Ethanol for a while.

Is it worth perusing, yes I think it is, the image of racing is important. Will it be feasible for all club members racing, not sure. I will be giving it a try once I can tune just to play with it.

[Gibson]

The funny thing is in this world of ours is that image is half the battle...

Maybe this is the battle you should be fighting, trying to get people to focus on facts instead of fancy.

Accommodating fools has a history of not ending well.

[CRallo]

and the batteries in a Hybrid take more resources to manufacture and transport than they will ever save. That fact doesn't seem to be hurting their sales... or their image.


bring the E85!

[joeg]

E85 also requires that the entire fuel system (seals, gaskets, hoses, etc.) be compatible with the alcohol.

Don't think it would work well with my Carburettor. Could melt the float.

[almost heaven]

+1. Chaning all the seals is the big problem I see.

[RSI]

the injectors I can totally understand. That makes sense.

hmm as for seals, I know we arnt talking about OLD cars here...but I have done several "E85 conversions" if you will to 1983 Volvo's...my 1989 station wagon has the same fuel system though, we've been running it now for 3.5 years on E85 on the stock fuel system and seals.

No leaks yet ;)

[shwah]

I don't race for image. If you want to that's fine with me.

[Z3_GoCar]

Since my intake manifold is made of ABS, as are all BMW 6-cylinder intake manifolds since '92, can I install a custom built aluminum one:rolleyes:

[steve b]

If you want to race on renewable fuels, might I suggest horse racing. :026:

[itmanta]

Hmm, not much support. And only a couple of intelligent responses. If more people had actual experience with E85 it would be much different. The plus sides of 105 octane and virtually no pollutants deposited in the engine oil are maybe a plus? E85 will always be more renewable and cheaper than"race" gas maybe. Oh and the carb issue has been handled a long time ago with new rubber gasket compounds. You know most gas in the US already contains 10-20% ethanol... I think the hurdle is still ignorance at this point.

[Gibson]

I think the hurdle is still ignorance at this point.

In your case it is mostly arrogance.

[JoshS]

I'm confused ... that's an option? I mean, I live here in the heart of Silicon Valley and the closest E85 station to me is 25 miles away from home. And it's not sold at the track. Why do I care?

[bonespec]

AFAIK all pump gas has 10% alky in it, be it 87 or 93 octane.

E85 for me would be PERFECT for a street car, but lets talk race setups.

Tuning is a whole different ball game, lets not get into exhaust tuning with E85.

[joeg]

"Oh and the carb issue has been handled a long time ago with new rubber gasket compounds"

Really? for my particular model Weber? Don't think so...

[RSI]

maybe you guys should go vintage racing with Sovren....where all the motorsports technology is 20-30 years old....:D

sounds like a bunch of folks resistant to any changes. I guess my question was really, "why not E85?" Injectors was a GREAT point.

If someone wants to go to the "apparent" trouble of running E85 why would we not let them.

on NA cars I think the performance increase is negligible at this point. It's cooler burning, but burns slower..etc.

In theory you could substitute fuel pressure regulators for injectors....kind of a bandaid to be able to run it, but a possibility.

so the new question is, "if someone is willing to do the work to run E85.(and its not a performance benefit where guys running in the back of the pack are now challenging the middle or front)...why would IT not allow that to happen?"

[itmanta]

In your case it is mostly arrogance.

Thank you for adding to the discussion. No really I did not mean to come off that way. I have run my personal daily driver on E85 for 5 years now and absolutely love it as a fuel source. I would race on it in a second if it were legal. The effort in tuning it is no more work that optimizing a race or pump gas car.

[itmanta]

"Oh and the carb issue has been handled a long time ago with new rubber gasket compounds"

Really? for my particular model Weber? Don't think so...

What "rubber" parts in your carburetor are there other than the o-rings around the idle jet holders ? The O-rings would be easy to match up with ones of compatible material if the existing ones swell or deteriorate when tested in E85. The accelerator pump is not rubber any more and the paper gaskets are not an issue.

[shwah]

Motorsports in the NW are taking a hit because of the environmental impact. Seems that E85 would help that image a bit.

My experience in my car is that the car makes 2-3hp less on 100 octane though. The nice thing about E85 is its Cheap. I pay $1.85 a gallon for E85 versus $7 a gallon for race fuel.

Just curious why E85 on NA cars isnt being allowed. I get how if we were talking actual methanol and other forms of alcohol it could be a power adder.

The only question was in your title: Why the aversion to E85?

I don't have an aversion per say, I just don't use it because it is inconsistent as provided at the pump, has lower energy content per pound and requires higher injector flow for proper tuning.

My earlier response was solely in relation to the suggestion that E85 is green. The way we do it in the US, it is not as green as Plain Old Gas. I see it more as a subsidy program for the farming industry.

If the reason to do it is that it 'is perceived as green' (which it is by some), rather than it 'is green' (which it isn't) then I simply disagree with the need to accomodate it. I'm not opposed, just don't think we HAVE to allow it.

IMO a stronger argument would be to require no-lead fuels across the board.

Maybe gather data on the amount / type of fuel consumed and emission produced at a race weekend so we can know whether the environmental impact matches the PR 'hit' that the sport is taking.

[shwah]

Hmm, not much support. And only a couple of intelligent responses. If more people had actual experience with E85 it would be much different. The plus sides of 105 octane and virtually no pollutants deposited in the engine oil are maybe a plus? E85 will always be more renewable and cheaper than"race" gas maybe. Oh and the carb issue has been handled a long time ago with new rubber gasket compounds. You know most gas in the US already contains 10-20% ethanol... I think the hurdle is still ignorance at this point.

While it is not applicable to my race engine, with shorter oil change intervals, could you point me towards some data on the 'virtually no pollutants deposited in the engine oil' part? I had not heard that before.

My understanding of the E85 spec is that it has a pretty wide tolerance for actual percentage of ethanol, which will impact the octane rating. Is 105 on the high, or low side of that tolerance?

E85 may be 'renewable', so is hydrogen, but both are energy negative when the whole process is taken into account. It consumes more fuel/energy to manufacture/distribute than you can get out of it, and more than comparable energy content gasoline. Changing the source of organic matter could improve that, but corn -> fuel is not the best approach.

To take your point a step further we should be racing all electric 'zero emission' cars, which would actually be displaced emission cars that have a much larger carbon footprint dedicated to battery manufacture and disposal, and a smaller carbon footprint moved from the car to the power plant for the energy used. I'm not interested in 'appearing' to be green.

Yes most, but not all, retail pumps have ethanol in them, there should not be a material compatibility problem in any car 30yrs or younger.

I don't care if people run E85, but don't build a faulty case for why we all should.

[RSI]

shwah: I will consider your thoughts 2 posts up. Thanks.

As for your latest post. at NO point was I saying that the WHOLE sport should use E85. I guess I was hoping to understand why we haven't allowed it as an option for those interested or willing to give it a shot.

[shwah]

I'm not sure why. I do know that we may have new fuel rules in 2010. I wonder if they will address this point

[joeg]

From a Mustang drag race article:

Ethanol is especially hard on vintage Mustangs with their rubber fuel hoses (my car has those), carburetor float needle valves (my Weber has those), die-cast carburetor bodies (my webers are die-cast), galvanized fuel tanks and lines (my car has those), and related components. Some owners have reported problems with phenolic carburetor floats (big concern).

Because ethanol accelerates the deterioration of vintage fuel systemhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif (http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/mump_0905_ethanol_and_vintage_mustangs/index.html#) components, you must take care of regular preventative maintenance more often. All fuel system rubber parts should be replaced annually and inspected frequently. Because ethanol tends to be hard on die-cast carburetor bodies, this also calls for close inspection because ethanol and zinc don't get along well. Although ethanol probably won't harm your carburetor's metal parts, there's always some element of risk (depending on your carburetor's metallurgy).

Stainless steel needle and seat is a partial solution--not exactly sure if available--stainlee fuel lines (expensive); and rubber hoses can be swapped for something more E-85 tolerant.

I have spoken with GM Powertrain engineers who state that there would be a lot of work in the conversion.

I'll pass.

[europeanspec]

Hmm, not much support. And only a couple of intelligent responses. If more people had actual experience with E85 it would be much different. The plus sides of 105 octane and virtually no pollutants deposited in the engine oil are maybe a plus? E85 will always be more renewable and cheaper than"race" gas maybe. Oh and the carb issue has been handled a long time ago with new rubber gasket compounds. You know most gas in the US already contains 10-20% ethanol... I think the hurdle is still ignorance at this point.

If you are looking for "intelligent responses," the internet is the wrong place to look. Regardless, here are a couple of responses. Rebuke correctly or I'll make fun of you.

Why would you need 105 Octane in IT unless you were running high-compression, which is illegal?

I change my oil often enough that I don't worry about pollutants. I'm looking for metal in my oil.

You have to burn 40% more so you would have to carry 40% more. Weight is bad.

E85 is also harder to extinguish than straight gasoline. It takes different chemicals. How will the safety crew differentiate what you have when you are on fire?

Alcohol is for drinking, gasoline is for racing.

[RSI]

our volvo's run 10.8:1 and 11.0:1 compression. I didnt think that was high.. :shrug: ..but it sure likes 97-100 octane. At least that is the octane at which MBT with the most power.

as for your 40% number..is that from your experience of driving a car that has been converted or something you read on the internet, where all posts are intelligent and well thought out?

as for alcohol for drinking and gasoline for racing.....I sure hope gasoline isnt for drinking :D

[RSI]

btw...I've gotten two intelligent items through this thread.

One E85 would require larger injectors..ie it would require another change of the rules. That's key.

Next, I got a PM regarding the E85 possibly failing the dielectric constant test used by scca.

Thanks for those who have provided insight as to why the governing body wouldnt allow E85.
Jonathan

[bonespec]

Due to E85 lower BTU content, you need about 40% more fuel to make the same power at WOT.

Under cruise conditions you can run a leaner mixture with detonation issues.

[europeanspec]

our volvo's run 10.8:1 and 11.0:1 compression. I didnt think that was high.. :shrug: ..but it sure likes 97-100 octane. At least that is the octane at which MBT with the most power.

as for your 40% number..is that from your experience of driving a car that has been converted or something you read on the internet, where all posts are intelligent and well thought out?

as for alcohol for drinking and gasoline for racing.....I sure hope gasoline isnt for drinking :D
I didn't read it on the internet. I learned it in College Chemistry. Just the same, your car on the interstate can run just fine at Stoich, but during race conditions you want a fatter mix. Have you ever run your Volvo in race conditions on Ethanol?

Here in the South, we are adverse to new ideas such as birth control and women's sufferage. E85 is nowhere on the horizon.

[dickita15]

From a research and marketing point of view I can see SCCA approving alternate fuels in the future as long as the safety implications are well researched, but I certainly do not see it starting in Improved Touring. Too many exceptions would have to be made to our ruleset. This type of experipentation would be better suited to production, Gt and even C or D sportsracer where the alterations needed are already permitted.

[steve b]

Alcohol is for drinking, gasoline is for racing.



Here in the South, we are adverse to new ideas such as birth control and women's sufferage. E85 is nowhere on the horizon.


LOL... I hope we get to meet some day. I like you already.

[europeanspec]

LOL... I hope we get to meet some day. I like you already.

Be careful what you wish for. I'll be at Barber in September, but I'm not sure if I'm driving yet. My car is back burner and my buddy's rentals may be full.

[bonespec]

New Vettes in ALMS are running E85 for the Green Challenge.

[CCARVER]

I am green racing!
I take junk cars and fix them up to race. Recycling at its finest.
Who ever said IT racing was not green?
No idea on the E85, we live in one of the oil states.

[wrcRS]

From a research and marketing point of view I can see SCCA approving alternate fuels in the future as long as the safety implications are well researched, but I certainly do not see it starting in Improved Touring. Too many exceptions would have to be made to our ruleset. This type of experipentation would be better suited to production, Gt and even C or D sportsracer where the alterations needed are already permitted.

I agree with this guy.

I am not against using alternative fuels in our racecars though.