bolt in cage question - welding

[karter74]

Not sure if anybody here can answer this or if it has ever came up before. I was wondering if you could weld together the sleeves. By drilling the sleeves and welding them to the bars I am told it would actually be stronger than bolts. Would it be stronger and would it be legal??:shrug:

I appreciate any input.

[Speed Raycer]

Kinda depends on the joint, access to the joint, prep of the metal etc.

Is it already bolted in the car, or is this a fresh install?

[joeg]

Sure you can do it!

[karter74]

It is a new install. We starting to look it over and a welder friend suggested it. I am talking about an Autopower standard bolt-in cage. I am thinking about the front part of the cage. The rear is all drilled and goes together easily.

[betamotorsports]

Traditionally the front roll hoops or the halo bar have all been bent from one piece of tubing with a welded in cage. There's nothing in the GCR that would preclude welding the bolted front hoop connection to the main hoop for a bolt-in cage. I suggest you also put the bolts in the place after you weld it to at least cover up the holes and make the tech inspectors happy.

IMHO, if the cage is bolted into the car at the unitbody/frame then all the joints need to meet the bolt-in roll cage requirements.

[karter74]

There are no holes in front part of the cage right now. What we were thinking was drilling the sleeve and filling the holes. This would be in place of the bolts. The idea was not to drill holes in the front tubes that do the actual support.

I know the way it works some times. Even if were stronger it does not meet the rules it will not be allowed. I would not want to put some tech guy in a position that he had to make a call. I would expect they would side with the GCR as it is written and that would be the right call.

Now I can't find the rules on the bolt in cages. In the 08 GCR it was there but can't find it in the 09.

[seckerich]

The only portion of the cage that requires "continuous" tubing is the main hoop. halo, or down tubes. Drill holes in the sleeves only for added weld points and weld the seams. Perfectly legal to weld up a bolt in cage.

[betamotorsports]

There are no holes in front part of the cage right now. What we were thinking was drilling the sleeve and filling the holes. This would be in place of the bolts. The idea was not to drill holes in the front tubes that do the actual support.

That would work. Be sure to bottom the front hoop in the sleeve against the main hoop and weld completely around where the sleeve overlaps the front hoop.

[tom91ita]

if you are going to weld it, why bother with the sleeves? just butt weld the sections together. the main hoop will still be one continuous piece per the rule.

the other sections do not have to be, right?

[karter74]

if you are going to weld it, why bother with the sleeves? just butt weld the sections together. the main hoop will still be one continuous piece per the rule.

the other sections do not have to be, right?

Not sure about that. I hate to interpret rules. I am worried I will go the wrong way. :rolleyes:

[Speed Raycer]

Again, pics will clear up a lot. Yes, you can weld a bolt in together.

[karter74]

There are Stubs that attach to the main hoop and then the front down tubes and side bars attach to those. In this picture you can see the sleeves. Under the sleeves the the two bars but up against each other.

This is not my cage but a pictue I found assembled

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads12/cage0211455178521209493774.jpg

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7315/dscf3200xd1.jpg

[tac911t]

When I had my car inspected this year, the tech inspector mentioned that the bolted sleeves would need to be welded to the bars at some point in the future.

Has anyone heard of this change being proposed for a future date?

[tom91ita]

my cage started life as an Autopower bolt in and i had visions of wanting to remove some day at first. and i did not have any welding skills or friends with them, etc.

i have since added door bars and some welding of the sleeves to the cage while leaving the bolts in place.

my ITB crx si has ~ 150#'s of ballast in it and moving 5-15 #'s of bolts and sleeves down to the floor beside me has not been a high priority.

but if starting from scratch, i would weld the cage in and not bother with the sleeves and bolts. a bolt-in cage is essentially a welded cage that was assembled and then cut in strategic places and then sold with sleeves to allow it to be re-assembled in the car.

the headache with trying to do a retro on my cage now is that i no longer have good access to some points that need to be welded. there are various threads around about how to assemble a cage and how/when to move it to get access to the welds.

for instance, cut 2" holes in the floor to "drop" the main hoop through the floor to tip back the hoop and allow the A-pillar hoops and hoop above the windshield to be welded 360° around with more ease, etc.

good luck regardless of which path you pick.

[Tak]

Without the rule book in front of me, I believe roll cages are required to use the same size tubing everywhere. The sleeves will fall foul of that. Will anyone care? I doubt it.
Personally I do not like welding straight around a tube--I much prefer "fishmouth" joints--the longer weld is stronger, and less likely to fail catastrophically in an impact (the peaks and valleys of the fishmouth help prevent crack propagation along the entire weld).
Why not do it right and cut out the side bar attachments and bend up/weld in new single piece side bars. Gives you the opportunity to triangulate while you're at it...

Tak
#29 ITA SFR SCCA

[anthony1k]

Personally I do not like welding straight around a tube--I much prefer "fishmouth" joints--the longer weld is stronger, and less likely to fail catastrophically in an impact (the peaks and valleys of the fishmouth help prevent crack propagation along the entire weld).



I agree 100%. Bad idea not to use sleeves. Aside from the safety concern, the tubes underneath the sleeves do not perfectly butt up against each other. You'll have to weld tubing to bridge them together. It will be a royal PITA.

My cage started as an Autopower bolt-in and over time it has been reinforced and welded in several places. My suggestion is to install it as a bolt-in (as it was designed) and weld the sleeves in place for added rigidity.

Good luck

[Speed Raycer]

Sleeves are not bad. They are used quite often in structural repair and IIRC, there's a diagram in the GCR about sleeving.

If you're concerned about the length of the weld, then notch the sleeve on both ends with 60 deg. notches. That plus rossette/plug welds will make a very strong joint.

As far as the same size tubing requirement, all required tubes must meet the minimum requirement. Sleeves typically do not make the tube thinner ;)

[joeg]

Scott--Actually they changed the GCR and all that old stuff about proper sleeving and the like is gone...seems banished to an archive.

Nothing actually replaces it, although the new rules have fewer restrictions.

Strange.

In any event, a sleeve is fine (as would be a plug for that matter)

[Speed Raycer]

Sheesh... nothing like getting rid of useful info!

[markw]

I would read GCR 9.4.2.B. I don't see a problem welding your sleeves, but the rule does specify the bolts need to be in place. I have seen some left field interpretations of the GCR by tech officials in my years. Better to have the bolts in place. Regards

[karter74]

I talked to a local tech guy and he said the same thing. He works for a structural steel company and knows ultimately the welds are stronger but said some will argue that don't know any better. I didn't want to miss a race because of this...