cam "blue printing"

[Ed Funk]

What's legal? What's enforceable at the typical regional event? Is anyone ever going to send a suspect cam and a known stock cam to Topeka for verification of legality?

[lateapex911]

It's been done. But, you (the protester or the protestee) don't send the 'stock cam'. For evidence purity reasons, a third party procures that. SCCA has some cams on digital file. They source the rest, then send them back.

I don't know what the Cam Doctor uses as a pass/fail threshold, but I imagine it will catch things like the ITB BMW 2002 cams I read an ad for that called them "IT tech shed legal cheater cams".

As to enforceable at a local event, I'd imagine that if it had excessive lift, it would be dinked right away. Measuring cams is something that (I bet) tech would get a bit bnervous about. If I had reasons to think that I needed to protest somebody over a cam, I would:
-find a tech guy I know and discuss it quietly, then..
-inform the tech staff that would be attending that event to be prepared for such a protest. That part would make me nervous, as it presents a chance for info to leak, but I think things would go smother with that approach.

In any case, I'd be prepared to have the cam impounded and sent to Topeka. Also, out of fairness to the protestee, I might plan on doing such a protest when there wasn't an event the next weekend, so as to not disable his car and preclude him from racing. (See spiteful Spec Miata protest fiascos of years past as examples of such 'strategies')

[tnord]

What's legal? What's enforceable at the typical regional event? Is anyone ever going to send a suspect cam and a known stock cam to Topeka for verification of legality?

it's been done in this division.

[Greg Amy]

Measuring cams is not difficult, if you have the specs. In fact, macro checks of the lift can be done with hand tools (not to the level to get bounced - you need specs, v-blocks, and a dial-indicator setup for that - but certainly adequately enough to check for gross cheating). But the only real way to do it per the GCR is to send them to Topeka with the (now, lower) test fee (non-refundable).

Jake, you're mistaken: the GCR actually requires the protester to provide a "known stock example" of the part(s) being protested. In the past, that's generally meant the protester has the part(s) sent directly to the inspector(s) from a trusted third party. Topeka does have camshaft profiles of common cars, but don't count on them having one for a Suzuki Swift <...rubbing hands/evil grin...> ;)

Don't worry about the "word getting out"; once a protest is filed against a competitor, the car is immediately impounded, and their failure to allow inspection (or impound) results in immediate Steward action. - GA

[quadzjr]

Do you have to have a known good cam for simple things like lift and duration or can you use the factory service manual?

[lateapex911]

Greg, I hear you, but...what I meant was that the protester provides the means to get the "Known stock example". If I showed up with a Honda/Nisaan/Mazda etc cam in a bag and handed to to you and said, "here is the stock version" it would be rejected, as you would have to assume I had some trick up the sleeve....it's an obvious conflict of interest.

But in the protest, I provide the means for others (unbiased third parties , ie, Stewards) to do the legwork, right?

I was told (by Tech) when I did a similar protest, that I should have contacted tech a week or so in advance, so that they would be prepared. As it turned out, they were most certainly NOT prepared (search this site for "A Protest Story" for a detailed rundown of how that played out) for what I had thought was a semi do-able protest. The concern going in was that leaking word that far in advance might yield adverse results. (That and the fact that the group of guys made the final call the morning of the actual protest...and we decided "By the book" was the way to go)

Heck, in that protest, the tech guys called out asking for tools to do the protest. We offered tools, but were rejected on teh conflict of interest basis.

[Greg Amy]

Do you have to have a known good cam for simple things like lift and duration or can you use the factory service manual?
A cam's duration is not a simple matter of measuring the base circle and subtracting that from the lobe measurement (thus my allusion above to "gross" cheating); cams' measurements are typical to and from a certain degree, and/or height between specific valve lift ('lash'). So, to measure lift correctly you need v-blocks (to spin the cam on), dial calipers (to measure the starting/ending point and the total lift), and specs ('cam card'). The Cam Doctor does all this for you. It'll "create" a cam card electronically if you measure a known stock example, then you compare that data to the part in question.

An alternative is to use an optical comparator, which projects the profile of the cam visually over a known shape. From there you actually compare the shape/profile.

To answer your question directly: yes, a known stock example is needed, assuming you don't have the Cam Doctor or optical comparator info already.


...(search this site for "A Protest Story" for a detailed rundown of how that played out)...
Oh, I'm well aware and remember it well. Everything that COULD have been done incorrectly WAS. However, I'd like to think that your experience is not indicative of how the process would work as a matter of course...I know it's not the way I would have handled it.

[Ed Funk]

Do you have to have a known good cam for simple things like lift and duration or can you use the factory service manual?

The few factory service manuals that I have seen don't list cam specs, tho you can usually extrapolate lift, but duration etc ---fugidabotit!

[lateapex911]

Oh, I'm well aware and remember it well. Everything that COULD have been done incorrectly WAS. However, I'd like to think that your experience is not indicative of how the process would work as a matter of course...I know it's not the way I would have handled it.

I've sometimes wondered if your increased role in the tech dept was in part due to your observance of the proceedings. Certain the release of the questionable parts that hadn't been determined to be legal/not legal was a huge shock to me, and I had a hard time following Dick Patullos first rule of screw ups, to wit: "Assume stupidity before malice"......

[Greg Amy]

Addendum, for simplicity: you can do the same thing a Cam Doctor does. All you need are a couple of v-blocks, a degree wheel (I've got one), a dial-indicator (ditto), and a dial-indicator magnetic base (or some kind of fixture - ditto).

Drop the known stock cam into the v-blocks. Attach the degree wheel to the end of the camshaft with the wheel's TDC at the cam's TDC mark (or any suitable "zero" point such as the center of the pin/keyway). Zero the dial indicator on the base circle at TDC. Slowly rotate the cam 1 degree at a time and note the dial indicator's reading. Do this 359 more times and you have the cam's profile; toss it into an Excel spreadsheet and you can even chart the profile graphically. Do the same thing for the camshaft in question and compare the data; it will give you lift (is the total lift different?), duration (has the duration been changed?), profile (is the lift and duration the same, but the cam's been changed in between?), and pin location data comparisons (has the pin been moved to change timing?)

Any technically-competent person should be able to do this, but this is what the Cam Doctor does for you, without having to know how to use the above tools.

Now, would a protested competitor settle for this method? Probably not. And, does the majority of SCCA Regional/Divisional technical staff have these tools and technical abilities? Probably not. Thus, SCCA bought a Cam Doctor and performs the service for you (and retains database info about various cams). - GA

On edit:
I've sometimes wondered if your increased role in the tech dept was in part due to your observance of the proceedings.
Absolutely. Two major things happened to motivate me; that was one of them.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ahhh, the beauty of running a Miata. All the cam specs are on file in Topeka. They could turn that protest around quick!

[Z3_GoCar]

Sure you've got a profile of one cam that's stock and one from the motor, but what's the manufacturing tolerance? How much variation between stock cams, and are you really sure it's within that level? I know of a company that makes a "stock" cam for rules similar to IT for their factory racing efforts, only the cam's take advantage of their manufacturing tolerances. I'm reminded of the SM protest where they measure the sway bar and said it was the wrong size but didn't account for the layer of paint on the bar:o

[dominojd]

Hmmm Ed you're asking all of these cam questions Ya nervous or something? :shrug:

:D

[Greg Amy]

...what's the manufacturing tolerance?
Far, far less than what is required to make a performance difference.


...a company that makes a "stock" cam for rules similar to IT for their factory racing efforts, only the cam's take advantage of their manufacturing tolerances.That's what we here call "cheating" ;) I don't know of whom you speak, but I strongly suspect it's built less to "manufacturing tolerances" (cams are ground to pretty precise tolerances, even mass-produced ones) and more to "it'll meet the measurements at the points where it's typically measured, and everything else in between is pretty wacky."

Thus, the Cam Doctor.

[dj10]

So your saying....if I want to protest say ie; another BMW 325 E36 cams, I should keep my extra set of stock cams with me?

[Ed Funk]

Hmmm Ed you're asking all of these cam questions Ya nervous or something? :shrug:

:D

---or something!!!

[lateapex911]

So your saying....if I want to protest say ie; another BMW 325 E36 cams, I should keep my extra set of stock cams with me?
If you want to provide those extra cams as "proof" don't bother. What's to stop a protester from providing "Stock" cams that aren't?

If you think YOU'RE going to be the protestee, then by all means, now you're back in business while the cams are out to the Good Doctor.

[quadzjr]

I have heard.. not going to mention from whom.. but they got stock cams from supplier A.. then drilled there own dowl pin at the at teh degree that they found most beneificial within the stock range. Fortuantely for them the stock cams range was apparently failry broad. A fair stretch of the rules that if jsut left up to a degree wheel and dial gauge would be legal. The cams got protested, however the protested party was handed the portest then told to bring there car up tech. Since the messenger left, they were able to swap in stock cams before having to pull them again in tech. (there was a reason why the car didn't run to the tech shed.. the timing was WAY off.. they jsut threw the cams in there.. didn't have time set them up.)

Side note.. As a vote of relief this was not on a IT car.

[lateapex911]

Far, far less than what is required to make a performance difference.

That's what we here call "cheating" ;) I don't know of whom you speak, but I strongly suspect it's built less to "manufacturing tolerances" (cams are ground to pretty precise tolerances, even mass-produced ones) and more to "it'll meet the measurements at the points where it's typically measured, and everything else in between is pretty wacky."

Thus, the Cam Doctor.

Bingo. And this is something to be aware of when writing a cam protest. If you decide, for whatever reason, to protest a guys cams, and you only list factory specs (lets say that's only duration and say lift) you are leaving a lot of other points on the table. You might get the results back that the cam meets specs and is "legal" when in reality, it isn't close to stock.

If you really think a guy is cheating, then you might want to assume he's smart enough to really cheat. Send the cam off to Topeka for a complete profile check against a known stock version. If you are going to kill the king....kill the king.

(If you think he's kinda cheating, like he's got the wrong cam in there because he's running a wrong assumption or by accident, then a paddock chat might be the way to go)

I'm just a dumb rotary guy, but even I know there's a lot that can happen between start of open, full lift and close.

[lateapex911]

The cams got protested, however the protested party was handed the protest then told to bring there car up tech. Since the messenger left,

CRASH! Steward totally dropped the ball, huge misconduct. Totally against the book. Once the evidence is out of the control of the stewards, it's tarnished and the whole deal is screwed. The protester should have written the Steward up.

[dickita15]

I had a hard time following Dick Patullos first rule of screw ups, to wit: "Assume stupidity before malice"......

Jake if you are going to quote me get it right, “Never attribute to Evil what can easily be explained by stupidity”.
It is a good rule to live by, it helps be resist the urge to kill people.:shrug:

[lateapex911]

Yes, good point Dick. I bow to your correct wordsmithing...

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tons can be learned from the history on cams in SM. From the dowel pin issue to what we have today, published specs for every lobe and tolerences.

Using a 'new' cam that is manufactured to those exacting tolerences is nothing more than blueprinting IMHO. IIRC, a set like that for my car is around $700. A huge chunk of change as compared to just buying a nice new set from Mazda...but we know we can't legislate spending.

Dan - if I was you, I would sure as heck keep the stock cams around. You pay to have teh cams pulled on a protested car, have them measured against what you 'know' to be stock, and then you decide if you want the protest to head to Topeka.

[lateapex911]

Dan - if I was you, I would sure as heck keep the stock cams around. You pay to have teh cams pulled on a protested car, have them measured against what you 'know' to be stock, and then you decide if you want the protest to head to Topeka.

Then rent.... errrr...sell the stockers to the guy who just watched his (obviously suspect) cams head off into the sunset. Profit! ;)

[dj10]

Dan - if I was you, I would sure as heck keep the stock cams around. You pay to have teh cams pulled on a protested car, have them measured against what you 'know' to be stock, and then you decide if you want the protest to head to Topeka.

I've contacted SCCA Tech to see if they have E36 cam profiles or cam's. I'm planning to keep the cam's with me.......just in case.

[Jeremy Billiel]

To answer your hidden question, yes Ed the cams that you happen to have in that certain motor in the garage *may* be legal to the book/ maximum allowable specs, but clearly not within the intent of the rules.

Has anyone ever officially tested one of "these" cams?

[Ed Funk]

No "hidden" questions. I'm confidant that the motor in the garage is a well built, legal, Serra motor. And i'm confidant that it'll idle like a Honda. It's other "lumpiness" I'm asking about.

[MMiskoe]

Ahhh, the beauty of running a Miata. All the cam specs are on file in Topeka.


Yes, but! Once they are out of the car you have no way of measuring the relative difference between intake & exhaust timing...... Ahh the beauty of dual cam designs.

[quadzjr]

Couldn't you say that about all cams? In the case of the DOHC motor required to us e an offset key. the only timing changes available are +/- a tooth.

-Which I have seen some motors benefit from moving the a cam a tooth relative to the other.. (motorcross Yamaha 450 engines produce significant gains from doing this, and my street MR2 turned was a gas saver! I fixed the cam timing on teh MR2 and now it is faster, but gas mileage went to crap)

[Greg Amy]

Once they are out of the car you have no way of measuring the relative difference between intake & exhaust timing...
If that's important to you, specify measuring relative cam timing in your protest. But, if all you protest is the cam itself, you never asked for that to be looked at anyway...

Don't forget to spec checking the gear(s) for altered keyways (compare it to known stock example), and/or widening of the keyways (allows you to move the cam timing, and it don't take much), and/or modified timing chain (though that's REALLY taking it to an extreme level of cheating...) - GA

[quadzjr]

Don't forget to spec checking the gear(s) for altered keyways (compare it to known stock example), and/or widening of the keyways (allows you to move the cam timing, and it don't take much), and/or modified timing chain (though that's REALLY taking it to an extreme level of cheating...) - GA


How would you alter a timing chain to get a +/- degrees? Either case.. that is a bit extreme but isn't the use of offset bushings (SOHC) and keys (DOHC) legal? I would think your best bet is to just put a degree wheel on the thing and dail gauge.

However does the Tech shed have the proper tools to do such a job.. I.e. piston stop, degree wheel, dial gauge, etc? I guess that is the point of the adance warning.

[Greg Amy]

How would you alter a timing chain to get a +/- degrees?
Use/make one with different-length links.


isn't the use of offset bushings (SOHC) and keys (DOHC) legal?Only on the crankshaft pulley.


However does the Tech shed have the proper tools to do such a jobNot likely.

GA

[Ron Earp]

Don't forget to spec checking the gear(s) for altered keyways (compare it to known stock example), and/or widening of the keyways (allows you to move the cam timing, and it don't take much), and/or modified timing chain (though that's REALLY taking it to an extreme level of cheating...) - GA


And cam gears that have the drive pin and mark re-indexed, another extreme example.

[GKR_17]

isn't the use of offset bushings (SOHC) and keys (DOHC) legal?


Only on the crankshaft pulley.


And only to bring the timing back to factory specs.

[Andy Bettencourt]

...*may* be legal to the book/ maximum allowable specs, but clearly not within the intent of the rules.



I disagree. It's all part of blue printing - very much allowed by the rules in black and white. No doubt that some cars may benefit more than others...

Tolerances seem to be tighter on Japanese cars but sooo many teeeny-tiny little changes occur every year with these companies. I would guess that the Miata is one of the ONLY cars in the ITCS where the full cam specs, for every lobe - with tolerences, is documented.

[Ed Funk]

you can't use SM cam specs for IT, at least not universally.

Why not?
Aren't both classes supposed to be using stock cams?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why not?
Aren't both classes supposed to be using stock cams?

Beat me to it Ed. Why do you say this Travis? Both classes are required to use stock cams.

[tnord]

Beat me to it Ed. Why do you say this Travis? Both classes are required to use stock cams.

since when do rules from one class apply to another?

[Greg Amy]

since when do rules from one class apply to another?
When both classes are required to use stock parts? Plus, we're not talking about rules applying from one class to another, we're talking about the sanctioning body's consistent application of identical rules between classes.

I suspect Travis is referring to the fact that SM engine builders were cherry-picking various iterations of cams that Mazda supplied with their Miata engines over the years. Additionally, many of them were "Spec Miata Cheating" their cams, optimizing profiles within the easily-available lift and duration specs, and/or moving the timing pins to optimal locations.

To address this cheating - and it WAS cheating, at least in terms of the optimization - Topeka procured a Cam Doctor and a specific example of a specific camshaft that it deemed "the legal camshaft" in SM. Everyone has to run THAT cam to be legal, REGARDLESS of what may have come in their "stock" engine.

So, what I think he's saying is that there may be instances out there where someone is truly using the stock cam that came from Mazda - fully legal in IT - but it's not legal in Spec Miata. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

The specs were defined by Topeka to keep the 'cheater' cams out. If they did there job correctly, I see no way a stock cam could fall outside the specs/tolerences.

[lateapex911]

The bottom line here (to me) is this:

You run the cam that came in your car as listed on the spec line. Or.....you get creative.
You get protested and the cam is sent to Topeka and the Cam Doctor. They procure a stock replacement. You match it, and your are golden. You don't match, and trouble ensues. Maybe they procure another, even two to double and triple check..I'm not sure how far they'll go, but I imagine you might be abe to request that in the prostes, as long as you are willing to pay for any 'above and beyond" costs. The whole part of setting up the protest has some flexibility to it.

Now, the only place where I can see that you can take your published specs, and 'Build a cam" that meets those specs, but is optimized in other respects is when there is no possible way for anyone to procure a stock example to check against. At that point, you're making a bet that when you get protested nobody will come up with the proof to show that your cam has been cheated up.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now, the only place where I can see that you can take your published specs, and 'Build a cam" that meets those specs, but is optimized in other respects is when there is no possible way for anyone to procure a stock example to check against. At that point, you're making a bet that when you get protested nobody will come up with the proof to show that your cam has been cheated up.

And again, let's make sure we clarify two things on the table here. Blue printing a cam would be 'building' one to the top or best of all the factory tolerences. All very legal and above board. Expensive and a waste? Yes and maybe - depends on teh car I would bet.

The other is building a cam to the specs where they exist and fudging other dimensions where they don't...it may meet the published specs where you measure - but when you put them spec for spec against a stock unit, you would see the difference...and probably get bounced. Hopefully.

[quadzjr]

And again, let's make sure we clarify two things on the table here. Blue printing a cam would be 'building' one to the top or best of all the factory tolerences. All very legal and above board. Expensive and a waste? Yes and maybe - depends on teh car I would bet.



It may be a waste to some.. I know Sunbelt buys massive quantities of cams for miatas measures them all and sells them accordingly to the SM guys.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It may be a waste to some.. I know Sunbelt buys massive quantities of cams for miatas measures them all and sells them accordingly to the SM guys.

And that is called 'parts bin' blue-printing. Some engine builders require you to ship them a crate motor. They then disassemble the unit, measure and then shelve the parts. If you are a 'good' customer, you get the lightest factory stuff all mtached in weight. If you are an 'average' customer, you get the heavier stuff all matched in weight.

[quadzjr]

yeah.. hence the "stock motors" that cost thousands and thousands of dollars.. just crazy..

I guess that is one great advantage with runnign a Miata.. every tip and trick that can be done to a "stock" motor can be applied to an IT motor.

[Andy Bettencourt]

yeah.. hence the "stock motors" that cost thousands and thousands of dollars.. just crazy..

I guess that is one great advantage with runnign a Miata.. every tip and trick that can be done to a "stock" motor can be applied to an IT motor.

Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.

What SM HAS done is open the eyes of many to what pro builders do - regardless of make or model. They are always developing and pushing the envelope....it's their job.

[dj10]

Part Bin engine's have been happening for a long long time, nothing you can do about it. It's when the engine builder start's to substitute with not so factory or modified parts that all hell breaks loose, like in SSGT a number of years ago @ the Mid O runoffs, they threw out the top 4 or 5 cars and they were all built by the same person. :~) People with money will go to extremes for 1 or 2 hp. In SM they get special fuel that cost's $45.00 per gal. and will give you about 1 to 2 hp.

[quadzjr]

Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.

What SM HAS done is open the eyes of many to what pro builders do - regardless of make or model. They are always developing and pushing the envelope....it's their job.

Oh I know and have seen a plenty.. From tearing apart motors that were built for IT by top companines.. and while I was going through the engine.. There were many things that were not legal.. but it requried a full teardown, and stock motor right next to it to tell anything was out of the ordinary, for the majority of the items..

I was amazed just the bit of horsepower gained from modifying stock sensor.. Against the rules in SM

[JeffYoung]

There is a really good thread on specmiata.com where a guy tore down I think a Rebello SM motor, a Sunbelt Motor and a Race Engineering motor.

Just blatantly illegal stuff in some of them (I can't remember which ones). Blatantly.

I think Jake and Andy nailed the legality issue on cam blueprinting. Making it match the best factory specs? Fine. Any other fudging? Not fine.

Ron ran into this with the oddball C cam for the Z car. It's hard to even find a SINGLE C cam, much less a good one. So, you have one cut, but you do it right.

[tnord]

most of the illegal stuff is in the Race Engineering motors from what i've seen.

but a builder will do whatever you ask them to......

[quadzjr]

You will get asked a question..

"do you want to pass tech? or do you want it to be legal?"

The most reacent that I can remember race engineering had alot of problesm getting busted for valve spring shimming.. when there is nothing in the book allowing it for the later years..

The Robello engine I worked on alos had illegal parts.. the only blatantly illegal parts were ones that performed no real performance gains only increasing the longevity.

[x-ring]

Trust me when I tell you that some of the tricks that make those 'pro' Miata motors fast are neither SM legal OR IT legal.


Uh, yeah. Been there, torn that down.

OK, so I'm not smart enough to multi-quote, so from quadzjr:


The most reacent that I can remember race engineering had alot of problesm getting busted for valve spring shimming.. when there is nothing in the book allowing it for the later years..


I'm assuming you are talking about last year's Runoffs; those weren't Bob's engines. I know, I wrote the RFA on them.

Now from Travis:


most of the illegal stuff is in the Race Engineering motors from what i've seen.


Hmm. I figure I've torn down as many SM engines as any scrutineer in the club, and I don't recall ever writing paper on one of Bob's engines. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Finally, from quadzjr, again:


...it requried a full teardown, and stock motor right next to it to tell anything was out of the ordinary, for the majority of the items.


And that's why we do it that way.

Last thing - there's also the Laywer factor: What may seem clearly non-compliant could be allowed on appeal, depending on who writes your letter to the COA...

[tnord]

that's because his motors aren't good enough to get to where you're at Ty, at least not legally. i'd venture to speculate that's why he was in the RO's tech shed for SM last year....he wanted to see why/how he was getting beat.

you have 10,000 times more experience than i do with this stuff, but the real bad cheating that i've seen/heard of second hand has all been RE.

[seckerich]

Its always interesting to see the total lack of class some people have to post speculation about builders cheating. Every driver is responsible for the legality of what they put in the car and race. It is up to the driver to purchase a legal motor for that class. The builder does what the customer asks. I have had requests for a mild EP RX7 motor that I knew was going in an ITS car. I didn't build it, but would I be the cheater if I did? Is there anyone else you wish to slander with your inuendo today Travis??

[Bob - Race Engineering]

Hello,

My name is Bob Thornton I am the Owner of Race Engineering. We build engines mostly for Spec Miata, IT and Spec E-30 as well as the odd circle track engine. I have built over 2000 engines in my engine building career over 1800 of them have been Spec Miata engines and have done testing for various teams and companies such as Joe Gibbs Racing, General Motors, ARP, NPD, Total Seal, Carbotech and Dyno Jet just to name a few.

The purpose of this post is to introduce myself to this forum. And to correct some of the above posted statements that were presented as facts which are non factual.

It seems that Mr TNORD has taken it upon himself to present to this forum information pertaining to myself and my company for slanderous purposes. To my knowledge I don't know Mr TNORD nor have ever built an engine for him. I have no knowledge of his credentials or expertise in the professional engine building field as well as any expertise he may have in the terms of tech.
I would also like to say before I delve into any facts that I have been consulted multiple times by the IT Comp Board.

1. - I have never had an engine be deemed non compliant for any shimming issues.

2. - Mr TNORD has an opinion that the only way I can get to the runoffs is to be there in tech. Something to the effect that I do not have the ability to build a compliant engine or one that is competitive enough. The fact is that I have won over 30 championships as a Spec Miata engine builder and three championships as a driver in Spec Miata and have had more track records either as a driver or as an engine builder than I can keep track of and have personally won over 50 SCCA races. And personally have NEVER been found non compliant. I would like to know where all these cheated up engines are that Mr. TNORD has said he has seen? Also who deemed them non compliant and what their credentials are?

3. - Since SM has become a National Class I have probably had as many engines at the runoffs as any other engine builder and more than most and have passed numerous complete engine tear downs to which Ty Till can attest. As for Mr TNORD suggesting that I need to go there so that I can learn the tricks, in the famous words of my mentor Smokey Yunick "I pride myself on being an innovator not a copier."

4. - The reason I go to the runoffs is to be there for my customers and to try and give something back to the SCCA. I do this since it is a club and it has allowed me to have a company that I have gained so many great friends and customers from for many years. Also Mr Eckridge can attest to the fact that I spent three years as a Central Carolina Region board member, which is on a volunteer basis.

5. - As an engine builder I have been found non compliant two times

One was a cam shaft in a protest situation in which I took full responsibility for publicly. The cam shaft had two lobes which were out of tolerance 1/4 of a degree at 10,000 lift. Which certainly is no performance advantage but, never the less, it was non compliant.

The other was a non compliant timing issue on a 99 which occurred at the runoffs in 2007 in a compliance check. I inadvertently installed an oil pump from a 94 1.8 engine onto a 99 engine and the timing sensor boss was in a slightly different position in which it caused the ignition timing to be off. It actually retarded the timing as opposed to advancing the timing which resulted in less horsepower and Tim Buck at Mazda Speed Motorsports Development as well as Ty Till can substantiate this statement.

I usually do not address these types of posts but the blatant inaccuracies stated throughout this thread needed to be corrected. If anyone has any further questions or comments I can be reached at Race Engineering 704-202-5551.

Thank You

Bob Thornton

[dj10]

Thanks Bob, good to hear from you.

[seckerich]

Thanks for the post Bob. Some people seem to forget that slanderous posts about companies without facts is irresponsible and potentially expensive. Companies like Race Engineering, Rebello, and others make their living on their reputation. Think before you use second hand gossip to degrade them. How would you feel if they showed up at your place of business spouting lies? I know them both to be incredible motor builders and honest businesses.

[tnord]

Thanks for the post Bob. Some people seem to forget that slanderous posts about companies without facts is irresponsible and potentially expensive. Companies like Race Engineering, Rebello, and others make their living on their reputation. Think before you use second hand gossip to degrade them. How would you feel if they showed up at your place of business spouting lies? I know them both to be incredible motor builders and honest businesses.

For you to presume I'm lying would be a mistake.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Let's keep it on topic. Lots of good knowledge for people in this thread on not just cams, but on blue-printing and what sometimes does comprise a no-expense-spared legal IT motor.

[Wreckerboy]

I'm assuming you are talking about last year's Runoffs; those weren't Bob's engines. I know, I wrote the RFA on them.


Correct me if I am wrong, that engine was for a '99 and was built by Karl Zimmerman of ART (http://www.appliedracingtechnology.com/), who, interestingly enough, is no longer listed as an advertiser there. The issue was "explained" publicly on the SM web site shortly after that here and in other threads (http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/18/380.html#000049). They also had a similar problem at the same time with a Honda motor built for Andy Hollis at the solo nationals - valve springs shimmed not in accordance with manufacturer's procedures. That resulted in Hollis forfitting his points and earnings for the season.

[lateapex911]

Man, Hollis has a had a checkered history, eh? (i'm not saying the motives or intent for the two issues are related, just observing, LOL)

[Wreckerboy]

Very much so, it would appear. Read this (http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?p=454702&highlight=2008+Solo#post454702) thread, with attention to post #453.

Hollis is the same person who, a few years back at the same event, showed a letter purported to be from Honda claiming that there was a so-called "tow package" for a Civic that allowed the final drive parts found on the car. Reference that here (http://sccaforums.com/forums/4/322646/ShowThread.aspx).

[x-ring]

Correct me if I am wrong, that engine was for a '99 and was built by Karl Zimmerman of ART (http://www.appliedracingtechnology.com/), who, interestingly enough, is no longer listed as an advertiser there. The issue was "explained" publicly on the SM web site shortly after that here and in other threads (http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/18/380.html#000049). They also had a similar problem at the same time with a Honda motor built for Andy Hollis at the solo nationals - valve springs shimmed not in accordance with manufacturer's procedures. That resulted in Hollis forfitting his points and earnings for the season.

I will neither confirm nor deny....

[lateapex911]

Very much so, it would appear. Read this (http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthread.php?p=454702&highlight=2008+Solo#post454702) thread, with attention to post #453.

Hollis is the same person who, a few years back at the same event, showed a letter purported to be from Honda claiming that there was a so-called "tow package" for a Civic that allowed the final drive parts found on the car. Reference that here (http://sccaforums.com/forums/4/322646/ShowThread.aspx).

The tow thing was epic. Written on doctored up Honda stationary IIRC. They tossed him and his (then?) wife Anne (I think she was tossed, maybe not) out for a loooong time, and slapped him with a very large fine. Like thousands, right?

[Wreckerboy]

The Honda thing was true chutzpa, agreed. I had heard about the fines as well. When I next came across the guy he was prepping a Miata for auto-x and writing a series of articles about it in GRM. Thought it was interesting, and then learned that the guy was on the advisory board for autocross, which apparently elicited some howls from that constituency as well. I guess the thought was like in NASCAR, where they put a notorious cheater, Gary Nelson, in charge of tech becaue he would know what was illegal because he'd already done it.

I guess Smokey Yunick didn't want the gig.

[Bill Miller]

For you to presume I'm lying would be a mistake.

So Travis, pony up some hard evidence to support your position. You're making claims against someone that makes their living on their reputation. Bob has come here, and his been pretty open, IMO. You, all you've done is talk about things you've heard 2nd hand. And if you've actually seen this illegal stuff, as you claim, back it up. Otherwise STFU and GTFO.

[Bill Miller]

The Honda thing was true chutzpa, agreed. I had heard about the fines as well. When I next came across the guy he was prepping a Miata for auto-x and writing a series of articles about it in GRM. Thought it was interesting, and then learned that the guy was on the advisory board for autocross, which apparently elicited some howls from that constituency as well. I guess the thought was like in NASCAR, where they put a notorious cheater, Gary Nelson, in charge of tech becaue he would know what was illegal because he'd already done it.

I guess Smokey Yunick didn't want the gig.

Rob,

It really is amazing the lengths some guys go to, to cheat. I remember several years ago, there was a guy that ran an SSB Acura that went to the trouble (and expense) of having counterfeit springs made. Everything looked exactly as a stock Acura spring would have, yet the rates were totally off. IIRC, when it was put next an actual stock spring, the size of the stock was considerably larger (like 1/4 - 1/3 larger).