If you were king for a day?

[ekim952522000]

OK guys we have been having a lot of deep rules discussion lately I was thinking it would be fun to list what would you do to the IT rules if you could write new IT rules again today.

keep in mind this is just for fun I am just curious as to what everyone would do I know 99% of these changes could never be made do to the high cost of the change and have come to accept them as part of IT.

If it were me I would...

Not allow splitters

Not allow spherical bearings

Allow any shock with 2 external adjustments

Allow the removal of cruise control.

Allow any unused wiring to be removed

Allow any size wheel in all classes width or diameter
(this would allow one wheel rule for all classes)

Allow anything stock to stay this would include ABS/TC

Include AWD cars

What would you do?

<--Hopes this thread can stay light hearted. :)

[Knestis]

...Hopes this thread can stay light hearted. :)

Whaddya mean, "IF" I were king...?

Bwah-hah-haaaah!

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/09/ceo_socnet/image/burger-king.jpg

K

[Greg Amy]

Folks, move along, nuthin' to see here...that's just the malt likker talkin'...

[Z3_GoCar]

Whaddya mean, "IF" I were king...?

Bwah-hah-haaaah!


K

Oh, Now you've got Kirk "Tha Kang" Knesits in the house..... Yo word to yor Mutha

[gran racing]

Add 400 lbs to the Golf III and add 500 lbs to the Golf IV. :D

[shwah]

Start a marketing campaign to increase interest and car counts in IT. I am seriously surprised at how many people I encounter that are involved in club racing and/or DE events that don't know about or don't understand IT racing. It is one of the most affordable and enjoyable options out there.

I really like IT, but it does suck to be in a "National Centric" division, and race against 1-3 other guys all season. IT Fest and ARRC are so nice that way. More competitors, and the best ones you can find.

Oh - and add 200# to every IT racer that writes and publishes a book.

[quadzjr]

If I were a king I would. force the implementation of using the area under the curve for both torque and horsepower for classifying cars.

I don't care ghow you do it.. just make it happen.; or off with your head!

Ohh and while your at it throw a coulpe lbs. on those pesky miatas.. (creepy laugh)

[RSTPerformance]

Add 400 lbs to the Golf III and add 500 lbs to the Golf IV. :D

Good call dave!

Raymond

[Marcus Miller]

I would not change any rule for 5 years.
Other than that, I agree with Chris, promote awareness and interest in IT.

[dj10]

If you were king for a day?

I'd get rid of all the CZAR'S that the president appointed! This isn't Russia!!!!!
Back to your normally schedule programming.............

[MMiskoe]

Have the details of the Process included in the spec line for each car.


Cripe all this talk about washer bottles on every other "what about..." thread and no one says it here. You guys are slacking.

[Spinnetti]

> Go back to stock, unmodified ECUs OR full aftermarket with whatever sensors you want with free intake (i.e. remove MAF). No point in doing it half way.
> Allow the cage to be attached to as many points as you damn well please
> Allow unused wiring to be removed

I guess I don't have much to complain about. Hmm. Thats not bad.

[tom91ita]

i'd appoint the K as jester of my royal court....

[Knestis]

...and Dave G. as your food taster.

Seriously - I'd make the SPEED Touring series for ITA-spec cars that are too new to be Regional IT eligible. And make it a National class to boot.

K

[Greg Amy]

I'd strike rules that required significant fabrication (outside safety equipment) for the vast majority of cars (e.g., sphericals, splitters), and I'd allow additional mods for commonly-available bolt-on parts (e.g., motor mount inserts, short shifters).

And, just for the hell of it, I'd allow removal of the washer bottle. Hey, I'm the king, go pound sand. - GA

[RedMisted]

Anybody who knows me will remember my moan about triangulated strut tower braces.

As King, I decree that you may now attach little thingy bars from your stayrod over to your engine cowl....and immediately proceed to go to town with the resulting suspension upgrades! :D

[RacerBill]

How about jack pads, limited size, but enough so that the frame is protected.

[seckerich]

I would have used ITR as a blank sheet to try some steps forward. These suggestions are ITR specific:

1. Leave ABS as almost every car classed came with it.
2. Every ITR car would get max 18" wheel.
3. Any shock with 2 external adjustments.
4. Use real HP and Torque numbers (yes they do exist) and publish them from multiple sources so all know what was used for classing and the math used==total transparency. If they are wrong someone will tell you and be asked to prove it.
5. Let all cars remove power steering and loop the rack (hp loss is not figured into formula)
6. What the devil is cruise control doing on a race car anyway?

Ducking now!!!

[ekim952522000]

...and Dave G. as your food taster.

Seriously - I'd make the SPEED Touring series for ITA-spec cars that are too new to be Regional IT eligible. And make it a National class to boot.

K

This Idea I LOVE! If you did this with ITR instead of ITA you wouldn't really have to change the cars that are already running 328, TSX, etc.

[ekim952522000]

I would have used ITR as a blank sheet to try some steps forward. These suggestions are ITR specific:

1. Leave ABS as almost every car classed came with it.
2. Every ITR car would get max 18" wheel.
3. Any shock with 2 external adjustments.
4. Use real HP and Torque numbers (yes they do exist) and publish them from multiple sources so all know what was used for classing and the math used==total transparency. If they are wrong someone will tell you and be asked to prove it.
5. Let all cars remove power steering and loop the rack (hp loss is not figured into formula)
6. What the devil is cruise control doing on a race car anyway?

Ducking now!!!

Have you ever heard of open road racing in nevada were depending on safety equipment they give you a target speed to maintain for the whole 90 mile run. It is done on closed public highways and your goal is to stay as close to the target speed as possible like say 150mph. I bet cruise control would be nice for that. :D

http://www.openroadracing.com/index.html

[dj10]

And, just for the hell of it, I'd allow removal of the washer bottle. Hey, I'm the king, go pound sand. - GA

You mean washer bottles can't be removed!!!!!!????????

[PSherm]

2 words - battery relocation! :D

Oh, and -100 lbs for the Peons! :happy204:

[RedMisted]

How about jack pads, limited size, but enough so that the frame is protected.

Very good idea. My car has been jack-assaulted so many times I'm not sure where to put the jack...

[Doc Bro]

First thing I would do as King for a Day is increase the Kings reign to a lifetime term, then I would get a bunch of Frickin sharks with Frickin laser beams to do away with all the King's naysayers. Then I'd make Jake Gulick try to outswim them cause I know he's a good swimmer, then I would make Greg Amy offially change his first name to The. I would also take away 4th and 5th gears from Andy and make him run LRP in an 8hr enduro. I would make Dave Gran race....I would give the Blethens and endless supply of duct tape for repairs......I would break the tip off of Ben Phillips' pen....I would give Crazy Joe a 360 degree bumper for his car like a bumper boat.

:happy204:

[raffaelli]

First thing I would do as King for a Day is increase the Kings reign to a lifetime term, then I would get a bunch of Frickin sharks with Frickin laser beams to do away with all the King's naysayers. Then I'd make Jake Gulick try to outswim them cause I know he's a good swimmer, then I would make Greg Amy offially change his first name to The. I would also take away 4th and 5th gears from Andy and make him run LRP in an 8hr enduro. I would make Dave Gran race....I would give the Blethens and endless supply of duct tape for repairs......I would break the tip off of Ben Phillips' pen....I would give Crazy Joe a 360 degree bumper for his car like a bumper boat.

:happy204:


LOL, :smilie_pokal:

[RacerBill]

Have you ever heard of open road racing in nevada were depending on safety equipment they give you a target speed to maintain for the whole 90 mile run. It is done on closed public highways and your goal is to stay as close to the target speed as possible like say 150mph. I bet cruise control would be nice for that. :D

http://www.openroadracing.com/index.html

I remember the first time One Lap of America used the road coruse at ORP. Each car was supposed to fininsh one lap at an average speed of 50mph. You know what happened when they tried to maintain 50 all the way around!!!!!!!!!

[shwah]

Winner.

First thing I would do as King for a Day is increase the Kings reign to a lifetime term, then I would get a bunch of Frickin sharks with Frickin laser beams to do away with all the King's naysayers. Then I'd make Jake Gulick try to outswim them cause I know he's a good swimmer, then I would make Greg Amy offially change his first name to The. I would also take away 4th and 5th gears from Andy and make him run LRP in an 8hr enduro. I would make Dave Gran race....I would give the Blethens and endless supply of duct tape for repairs......I would break the tip off of Ben Phillips' pen....I would give Crazy Joe a 360 degree bumper for his car like a bumper boat.

:happy204:

[kgobey]

Limit all cars to a predetermined to a max and a min weight and then also a power to weight ratio.
Buy every region a rolling road Dyno and test every last one of the competitors for that hp to weight ratio.... (EDIT:) AT THE EVENT... after the race.

Same with SM.

[seckerich]

Limit all cars to a predetermined to a max and a min weight and then also a power to weight ratio.
Buy every region a rolling road Dyno and test every last one of the competitors for that hp to weight ratio.... (EDIT:) AT THE EVENT... after the race.

Same with SM.

Have fun--they call it NASA.:rolleyes:

[Knestis]

How about jack pads, limited size, but enough so that the frame is protected.

It *just* occurred to me that a jack pad provision would allow me to get those air jacks Cameron has been agitating for...

Schwing!

K

[gran racing]

Doc Bro for KING!

[Duc]

1. Leave ABS as almost every car classed came with it.


Ducking now!!!

ABS at 150 scares me, those systems are not designed for those speeds.


My Kingdom:

Cut the zip ties off the heater core and use it for target practice, same with the water bottle.

Cage rules is open, keeping the current rule as the minimum, include piercing the firewall to allow the cage to extend to where our feet are. (loved the cages this weekend at 24Hr of Lemans)

Lose the side glass.

Any Head and Neck system, though one would be mandated. (Sorry simple safety rule)

Any two way adjustable shock

Any motor/ transmission/ body mounts.

[Z3_GoCar]

ABS at 150 scares me, those systems are not designed for those speeds.


My Kingdom:

Cut the zip ties off the heater core and use it for target practice, same with the water bottle.

Cage rules is open, keeping the current rule as the minimum, include piercing the firewall to allow the cage to extend to where our feet are. (loved the cages this weekend at 24Hr of Lemans)

Lose the side glass.

Any Head and Neck system, though one would be mandated. (Sorry simple safety rule)

Any two way adjustable shock

Any motor/ transmission/ body mounts.

Maybe the ABS on a Toyota isn't designed for those kinds of speeds, but my BMW and Porsche's are.

If I were king I'd make glue on vortex generators legal, kill the lift not the car. Also I'd either remove the front spoiler, or add a provision for a rear wing 10"x48" mounted no higher than 4" above the peak of the roof, depending on which side of the bed I woke up on :p Hey a guy who races a backward falling rain drop can dream??

ps.. I remove my support for Kirk "Tha Kang" Knetis and place behind Rob "Tha Tooffus" Bro

[Spinnetti]

Anybody who knows me will remember my moan about triangulated strut tower braces.

As King, I decree that you may now attach little thingy bars from your stayrod over to your engine cowl....and immediately proceed to go to town with the resulting suspension upgrades! :D

Ooo.. I forgot that one, the dumb washer bottle thingy, and TOTAL removal of heat and AC... 2nd all of those, and I STILL couldn't hit minimum weight.

[JoshS]

ABS at 150 scares me, those systems are not designed for those speeds.

At what track do you get up to 150?

[JoshS]

... and I STILL couldn't hit minimum weight.
What car?

[Spinnetti]

What car?

1985 Toyota Corolla GT-S. I was at minimum weight at 28yrs old, but at 44, I'm over (same car the whole time) :)

[Knestis]

...If I were king I'd make glue on vortex generators legal, kill the lift not the car. Also I'd either remove the front spoiler, or add a provision for a rear wing 10"x48" mounted no higher than 4" above the peak of the roof...

HAH! You don't have a kingdom. You have an parallel universe!

:026:

K

[Duc]

Maybe the ABS on a Toyota isn't designed for those kinds of speeds, but my BMW and Porsche's are.




At what track do you get up to 150?
Daytona, ran out 5th gear, at about 140 with smaller tires. 100+ on a ABS system engineered for the street, I would not want to try it. Driving on the highway and competition driving are two different driving models. Now a new ABS system, off of a newer application (BMW, Porsche, Audi ETC), maybe. But this is IT! And you were king for a day...

And on that note, add remove the 5yr rule to my list. If someone wants to run it let it be so.

[GKR_17]

What car?

Irish Mike (E46 328) was at 150 or better at Daytona. We got close with a draft. My numbers say the Supra could be near 160...

I'd plug the ABS in in a heartbeat if allowed, even on a 20 year old system.

[shwah]

I've driven early 90s ABS cars, and current generation Porsche's and everything in between ABS wise on the track and no way no how would I want a 'typical' IT car ABS system to race with. Those early systems will not let you get the most out of a good setup. The Porsche stuff is another story - just awesome. The Z4 is alright, and would probably be helpful, but nothing ever felt right like the P car.

[seckerich]

ITR was the perfect opportunity to be forward thinking about newer technology without effecting current IT cars.

ABS MAY be disconnected would solve the problem you have.

Many of the current IT cars are going to age out just like the foundation cars of Production. The 12A motor is on its death bed already, and many of the most popular IT cars are getting harder to find factory parts for. This thread is a good place to bring out some ideas with some light hearted posts. What I would like to see is some input on a 10 year plan for IT. We say that rules that require removal of items add cost for all because you HAVE to do them, yet newer cars have more and more of these banned items.

More and more drivers are selling other cars to join IT because of cost and the number of opportunities to race on a given weekend. We need to continue to be the most attractive option for new racers and old.

PS. King Kirk is just a little freaky. :D

[MMiskoe]

Maybe the ABS on a Toyota isn't designed for those kinds of speeds, but my BMW and Porsche's are.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I've seen a few too many ABS failures that resulted bad things. I don't even like it in my street cars. ABS primary concern is not to get the car slowed down, but to keep it aimed straight. When it gets confused it will stop stopping while it gets re-oriented.

Plus it is very hard to get a spinning car to spin off in a straight line if you can't get the wheels to lock up.


How come no one asked for a change in wording on cleaning up/removing wiring harnesses?

Could we sample fuel out of the tank instead of needing a port?

Would eliminating the requirement for DOT tires make tire choices cheaper? I've never researched it.

[ekim952522000]

I was expecting Kirk to say "when I am King aftermarket cam gears will be legal";)

[tom_sprecher]

What I would like to see is some input on a 10 year plan for IT...

+1

I don't want to get too OT, but what do you guys think the next wave of popular ITA & S cars will be? Obviously I'm a car guy, but that is just one dimension of many and I really do not keep up with what the car companies produce now, let alone 5 - 10 years ago.

What would make for good candidates in either class?

[ekim952522000]

....This thread is a good place to bring out some ideas with some light hearted posts. What I would like to see is some input on a 10 year plan for IT. We say that rules that require removal of items add cost for all because you HAVE to do them, yet newer cars have more and more of these banned items.

......

It is interesting that you bring this up I often find myself looking at the older cars in IT to avoid all of the hassle that getting a newer one causes. As someone who removed the ABS from his car and ran new brake lines this is not something I think the typical new person is going to want to do.

I do think at some point IT is going to need to add the rule that "all unused wiring is allowed to be removed" considering how much "stuff" new cars come with seat heaters, navigation, etc.... I know it would add some cost to a 110% build but as we get people racing newer and newer cars racers are not going to want to have 1800ft of wire rolled up on there floor board.

[Knestis]

I was expecting Kirk to say "when I am King aftermarket cam gears will be legal";)

Note to self: Delete all nice things posted about Mikey to date.

K

[ekim952522000]

Note to self: Delete all nice things posted about Mikey to date.

K

:(Sorry Kirk that was a low blow.
http://www.guzer.com/pictures/bear-low-blow.jpg

[JoshS]

+1

I don't want to get too OT, but what do you guys think the next wave of popular ITA & S cars will be? Obviously I'm a car guy, but that is just one dimension of many and I really do not keep up with what the car companies produce now, let alone 5 - 10 years ago.

What would make for good candidates in either class?

In 2008 I made a list of appropriate cars coming into IT eligiblity over the next few years:

BMW Z4 2.5
Infiniti G35
Mazda6 V6
Mazda6 4-cyl
Saturn Ion
Acura TSX
Mazda3i 2.0
Mazda3s 2.3
Mazda RX-8
Scion xA/xB
Chevy Cobalt
Ford Mustang
Scion tC
Toyota Corolla XRS
Volvo S40/V50
BMW 325i
Honda Civic Si
Mazda MX-5
Pontiac Solstice
VW Golf/Jetta/Rabbit 2.5

The 2004 variants of couple of these have already been classed since I first wrote the list. There are candidates in here for ITA, ITS, and ITR. The Scions might even work in ITB.

[seckerich]

With big O in office we might have to bring back ITD.:smilie_pokal:

[Knestis]

:(Sorry Kirk that was a low blow.
http://www.guzer.com/pictures/bear-low-blow.jpg

Now THAT is funny!

No worries :)

K

[Duc]

As someone who removed the ABS from his car and ran new brake lines this is not something I think the typical new person is going to want to do.

Yeah that is on my to-do list, and I do not look forward to it. I need the weight loss.




I do think at some point IT is going to need to add the rule that "all unused wiring is allowed to be removed" considering how much "stuff" new cars come with seat heaters, navigation, etc.... I know it would add some cost to a 110% build but as we get people racing newer and newer cars racers are not going to want to have 1800ft of wire rolled up on there floor board.

The amount of wiring has actually diminished quite a bit with the advent of single or two wire bused networks (J1850 in GM and FORD around 96-97, CCD for DCX 98+, CAN, and a bunch of hybrid buses). This eliminated the need for home run connections except for power connections. The other thing that has improved is insulation technology.

But does not some of the "systems" that are allowed to be removed cover the wiring?

The concern for me is that to allow for maximum safety equipment (cage, good seats that are not Carbon Fiber, fire systems) and reaching minimum weight. All of these little items do add up.

D

[Z3_GoCar]

With big O in office we might have to bring back ITD.:smilie_pokal:

Are you talking about the Pelosi GTxi SS/RT sport edition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY

[RedMisted]

Many of the current IT cars are going to age out just like the foundation cars of Production. The 12A motor is on its death bed already, and many of the most popular IT cars are getting harder to find factory parts for. This thread is a good place to bring out some ideas with some light hearted posts. What I would like to see is some input on a 10 year plan for IT. We say that rules that require removal of items add cost for all because you HAVE to do them, yet newer cars have more and more of these banned items.

More and more drivers are selling other cars to join IT because of cost and the number of opportunities to race on a given weekend. We need to continue to be the most attractive option for new racers and old.

On a larger scale, I wonder: "What's it gonna be like to be a car guy in 20 years?

Cars are now made standard with tons of driver-assistive devices and other "pleasure" features and accoutrements. I expect this trend to accelerate, given the regulatory environment's tendency to increasingly overstep its bounds, and society's ever-expanding love of the lawsuit and seemingly latent desire to behave more and more like inanimate objects.

I'm thinking that if I'm still going to be racing IT, I sure as hell don't want to construct a newer car that will cost me extra $$$ to gut, because of all the Mickey Mouse equipment that the automakers installed to make driving a sedentary activity. But if driver aids have a future in IT, I'd rather go race Production or Factory Five or something where I dictate my OWN fate, not some damned computer.

I think if IT is going to survive, it needs to set a strong precedent that driver skill will ALWAYS be a part of its overall philosophy. But I could be wrong in this assumption. The IT drivers of the future may be such a coddled species that they may find the idea of racing without electronic nannies to be an inane concept.

Not trying to go too far off the track, but just had to get this off my chest....

[ekim952522000]

I do like the idea of only allowing manual transmissions and no ABS for the reasons you stated to keep it about the driver, those are excellent points I had not thought about it would suck to have to buy the newest car just so you could have the best ABS/TC system in the field.

[rlward]

Heck in 20 years let make a class of motorized micro-cars. any power unit allowed, as long as it was governemt approved. I could hook my pacemaker battery to the GMC-Obama green micro motor and get up to 25 MPH on the straights, 5 MPH faster than the national speed limit on the interstates.

[Bob Roth]

1) Allow ABS, other than airbags, they are the most highly tested, most failsafe parts of a car. Considering that these cars are capable of 150 mph, I find it highly unlikely that ABS is as unsafe as some suggest. Now if it is, fine, make it optional to remove for those that think othewise. However having locked up rear ends and fronts dry and wet, if its already on the car, let me use it if I want it.
2) For power based weight adjustments, do the area under the curve plus provide some adjustment for high and low HP/liter engines. A 1 hp per liter 160 hp 1.6 Del Sol does not have the same development potential as a 0.6 hp per liter 150 hp 2.5 liter porsche. The only honda's entered in quantity in IT today are non-vtec ITA Civic's and Integra's. There's something wrong when people are building VTEC honda's for every other class of racing but SCCA IT racing.
3) Let people disable and remove power steering, same with remove non essential engine compartment stuff like wiper systems (at least in spec classes - See below)
4) Work on more single make spec classes . In the field's I am seeing, 60% of the IT cars are Spec/ITA Miata's. Like it or not IT is already a majority spec series. Accept that the future is more spec racing and not class racing. Go to Spec 944, BMW 3 series, Honda. We are approaching the end of times where there are cheap plentiful varied new cars that are very good (other than Miata's) coming into IT. Most cars are too heavy, and heck, many are ending supply of manual transmissions. Also they are just getting tough to develop into reliable, good working race cars. Rather than pit the Honda Vtecs vs BMW 3 series vs 944's leaving everybody unhappy, make them race within their own spec for their own trophies. I am not arguing about eliminating the present classes, Just add new ones using NASA templates try to grow IT fields.

I have been around to see VW rabbits, Dondge Chargers, Dodge Neon's, and CRX's be the next hot thing in IT and then wane. Someday this will also happen to Miata's. If it does and the IT committee hasn't found a next act, I don't see how IT will continue.

[lateapex911]

Work on more single make spec classes . In the field's I am seeing, 60% of the IT cars are Spec/ITA Miata's. Like it or not IT is already a majority spec series. Accept that the future is more spec racing and not class racing. Go to Spec 944, BMW 3 series, Honda. We are approaching the end of times where there are cheap plentiful varied new cars that are very good (other than Miata's) coming into IT. Most cars are too heavy, and heck, many are ending supply of manual transmissions. Also they are just getting tough to develop into reliable, good working race cars. Rather than pit the Honda Vtecs vs BMW 3 series vs 944's leaving everybody unhappy, make them race within their own spec for their own trophies. I am not arguing about eliminating the present classes, Just add new ones using NASA templates try to grow IT fields.

I have been around to see VW rabbits, Dondge Chargers, Dodge Neon's, and CRX's be the next hot thing in IT and then wane. Someday this will also happen to Miata's. If it does and the IT committee hasn't found a next act, I don't see how IT will continue.

Let's be even more simple. Have a class for every entrant.

I can't remember when a Dodge Charger was ever THE hot car in a competitive field.. Rabbits are still out there and doing well, and you should get out to the IT-Fest and the ARRC..there was this car called the CRX there. Did OK.