12 hrs of Summit

[StephenB]

Good luck to everyone this weekend! :happy204:
The entry list looks great! :eclipsee_steering:

If anyone that lurks here has internet at the track feel free to post updates here! :024:



5 ITR Ron Willis White w/red & blk 1992 BMW 325i Manassas Motorwerkes Inc/Spider Pig Racing
8 ITS Don Himes Black 1999 Mazda Miata
10 ITA Mac Spikes Yellow 1995 Mazda Miata East Street Auto / SAFERACER / diyautotune.com
12 SSM Bruce Shelton White & Black 1991 Mazda Miata Automotive Enterprises / The Wheel
18 ITA Andrew Zimmermann Red 1998 Acura Integra Hankook Tire, Icarp.net
19 ITA Steve Colletti Red 1996 Acura Integra Colletti Motorsports
21 ITS Bruce Ledoux Silver 1999 Mazda Miata Guardian Angel Motorsports
23 ITE Matt Miskoe Red 1995 Mazda Miata American Engineering & Testing
25 ITS Teri Willis White 1987 BMW 325is Manassas Motorwerkes
28 T1 Lance Miller Red 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Carlisle Events, Mechanicsburg Sports Car Center, Lawrence Chevrolet
32 SSM Robert Dimarco White 1990 Mazda Miata Mitchum Motorsports/RP Performance
33 SM Chris Mitchum Black 1999 Mazda Miata Mitchum Motorsports/Ride for Jim.org
39 ITE Jason Marks Yellow/white 1992 BMW 325i Bimmerworld
41 SSM Joe Plunkett Yellow 1997 Mazda Miata Subway
43 SSM Brian Billey Enduro Silver 1990 Mazda Miata Cottonwood/ Meathead Racing
56 ITE Rick Stewart Silver 2002 BMW 330i Piper Motorsport
57 ITE Serge Tousignant YELLOW 1997 BMW M3 BIMMERSHOP
59 ITR Dave Volante White 1998 Acura Integra Type R High Street Racing
69 ITB Scott Holman yellw/black 1979 plymouth arrow frederick motorsports
75 SM Michael Collins Arctic Blue/Orange 1999 Mazda Miata MEATHEAD Racing/York Automotive
77 SM Bill Miskoe Black/Silver 1994 Mazda Miata Iron Dragon Racing
87 ITS Sam Schechter Blue 1992 Mazda Miata Neuromonitoring Technologies
88 ITA Kurt Thiel Green 1990 Mazda Miata kumho tires,father dominic, flying bugger racing
89 SM Manuel Dasilva white 1994 mazda sm phr
94 ITE Paul Moorcones yellow 2000 Acura Integra Type R Radial Tire Company
95 SSB Thomas Sheehan red 2008 Mazda MX-5 guardian angel motor sports
99 ITE Steve Snow BLACK 2007 BMW 3 SERIES BIMMERWORKS.COM
03 ITE William Miller Red 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Carlisle Events,Mechanicsburg Sports Car Center, Lawrence Chevrolet
08 SM Wiliam Hess White 1991 Mazda Miata

[Bob Roth]

#59 Integra type R, See our race report, www.highstreetracing.com (http://www.highstreetracing.com) "

[StephenB]

Thanks for the updates and congrats on the win... It's probably not a real endurance race unless you test the endurance of the crew!!! Your group certainly proved that!!

Will we meet at the 12 hrs of Nelson? We plan on going out but in an ITB Golf... After competing in 100's of races this is the one I am most excited about!

Stephen Blethen

[Bill Miller]

Wow, this had actually slipped my mind. Talk about telling a tale of the economy! 30 cars? I remember when (only in the last couple of years), they had to get a waiver to start more than 50 cars (25 cars per mile rule).

[racecarjohn]

I have run the 12 Hr before and ran into the night. What was the opinion about starting at 9am and running until 9 pm with almost no headlights needed? Do you think you might have more show up it ran in to the night? That was part of the alure for me and my friends to run. We couldn't make it this year but looking at next year

By the way, was there a reason givin to change the start time?

[Knestis]

My understanding is that the region decided to start earlier to make headlights a non-issue to make it "easier" for teams to get prepared and enter.

Personally, I wouldn't NOT do the Summit 12 just because it doesn't go into the night but that is part of the allure of endurance racing for me.

K

[Gregg]

As one who was in on the dicsussions and decision to make the schedule change, there were multiple reasons.


Perhaps the most important--we had requests from multiple specialties (specifically T&S) to change the time so that they could leave the track earlier and not have to drive in the middle of the night to get home after having spent 15+hrs at the track
In what we anticipated to be a "down" year based on economic factors, we believed that it would be easier to prepare / convert cars if they didn't need the light bars. Remember that this is just after we started allowing SRFs into the fold.
The move to an earlier start time would save the region considerable $$, removing the need for the light booms so that T&S / Control could track cars, and removing the need to providing night visibility of corner stations / flag conditions.

Of course the corollary is that flaggers and pit workers needed to spend more time in the hot sun than in year past.

Although I have heard from a few drivers/teams that they would have considered running this year if we stayed at 12-12 (or 11-11) the fact is that is was a down year as predicted. Some regulars (like the good Dr.) didn't enter and while I'm sure the lack of night running played a small part, I truly believe there were bigger factors at play that kept the numbers down.

[Knestis]

Oh, sorry - let's be clear that CMS not coming had ONLY to do with finding funded codrivers. I'll run any enduro if there's enough $$ to make it happen.

K

[Bill Miller]

As one who was in on the dicsussions and decision to make the schedule change, there were multiple reasons.


Perhaps the most important--we had requests from multiple specialties (specifically T&S) to change the time so that they could leave the track earlier and not have to drive in the middle of the night to get home after having spent 15+hrs at the track
In what we anticipated to be a "down" year based on economic factors, we believed that it would be easier to prepare / convert cars if they didn't need the light bars. Remember that this is just after we started allowing SRFs into the fold.
The move to an earlier start time would save the region considerable $$, removing the need for the light booms so that T&S / Control could track cars, and removing the need to providing night visibility of corner stations / flag conditions.

Of course the corollary is that flaggers and pit workers needed to spend more time in the hot sun than in year past.

Although I have heard from a few drivers/teams that they would have considered running this year if we stayed at 12-12 (or 11-11) the fact is that is was a down year as predicted. Some regulars (like the good Dr.) didn't enter and while I'm sure the lack of night running played a small part, I truly believe there were bigger factors at play that kept the numbers down.

Not for nothing Gregg, I would think that you would cater to the 'paying' customers, rather than the volunteers. As Dr. K. pointed out, part of the draw is the night portion of the race. Did you lose 20-ish entries because of the schedule change? Hard to say, and no one will ever know. I agree that economic factors probably played a larger role. Too bad, it's a great race.

[IPRESS]

Greg, I think you guys had a legit call on it this year. It is real hard to tell if it was 9-9 or just the economy. I think it was the economy more than anything. I wonder if a compromise might work in the future. (It is never good to disregard the ideas of the volunteer force that allows us racers to race.) How about instead of 9-9 or 12-12 you find something inbetween?

BTW, Can you link me to the ITE rules that apply to the 12HR?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not for nothing Gregg, I would think that you would cater to the 'paying' customers, rather than the volunteers.

Nobody like change...but without the volunteers, NOBODY gets to race.

[Gregg]

BTW, Can you link me to the ITE rules that apply to the 12HR?

All of our region-specific class rules are here:
http://wdcr-scca.org/ClubRacing/MARRS/RegionSpecificClassesCR/tabid/73/Default.aspx

As for something a compromise on start/end times, we went w/ 9-9 when we looked at time of year (a week from the Summer Solstice), and how altering the schedule by just 30min-1hr would have redered the 2nd and 3rd bullets I posted moot.

Obviously we'll be looking at comments from those that attended and those that didn't (but usually do) in deciding what to do next year. We'll also be looking for feedback from our hundreds of 12hr volunteers, without whom we wouldn't be able to put on this event.

[Bill Miller]

Nobody like change...but without the volunteers, NOBODY gets to race.

We'll agree to disagree on that one Andy. You get the racers to work, or provide the workers. Or you hire them. Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate the workers, and what they do. And I've kicked in $$ for the worker party at every event I've ever entered. But I'm honestly tired of the tail wagging the dog. You know what you're in for when you volunteer for something. If it doesn't fit with your view, it's pretty simple, DON'T VOLUNTEER! I've seen this in plenty of other areas. I saw it when I was on the volunteer Fire Dept. People felt that since they volunteered, they were owed things. I've seen it in Scouting as well.

If you're going to volunteer for something, you shouldn't expect to get anything more than the intrinsic satisfaction you get from doing whatever it is you're volunteering for. If you actually do get other things out of it (free food, professional courtesy, etc. etc), you should look at that as a bonus, you shouldn't expect it.

I dare say that a crew and the drivers for a 12-hour endurance race will be a hell of a lot more tired at the end of their day (safe to say that it's longer than 15 hours as well), than somebody that's sitting in the T&S tower. If the drivers and crew want the race to end @ 9, that's fine. It's also fine if they want it to end @ midnight. Telling the drivers that the race will end @ 9 because the workers want to get home earlier is BS.

And the bottom line is, without the racers, there is no need for the volunteers, because there are NO races.

[Bill Miller]

All of our region-specific class rules are here:
http://wdcr-scca.org/ClubRacing/MARRS/RegionSpecificClassesCR/tabid/73/Default.aspx

As for something a compromise on start/end times, we went w/ 9-9 when we looked at time of year (a week from the Summer Solstice), and how altering the schedule by just 30min-1hr would have redered the 2nd and 3rd bullets I posted moot.

Obviously we'll be looking at comments from those that attended and those that didn't (but usually do) in deciding what to do next year. We'll also be looking for feedback from our hundreds of 12hr volunteers, without whom we wouldn't be able to put on this event.

Gregg,

You need hundreds of volunteers to put the event on?

You mentioned the light bars and the SRF's, but according to the list that Stephen posted, there was not one SRF entered. And honestly, people that plan on entering endurance events like this, usually understand what's involved. I'll concede the 3rd point, that w/ a low entry (<60% of capacity), saving the additional lighting expense helps. But when was the schedule changed, before or after registration opened?

I guess one of the other questions that needs to be asked, is did the WDCR lose money on the event, w/ only 30 entries?

[Gregg]

1. Yes. To be specific, more than 200 less than 300. Perhaps you'd like to stand out in 100 degree temps for 15+ hrs to work the event. Oh, and no bathroom breaks or meals for you. Perhaps getting paid a stipend will make that OK.

2. No SRFs this year. Multiple SRFs last year

3. Prior

4. Yes.

And Bill, I'm sure that our numbers might drop slightly if we had to increase the entry fees to pay for all of the workers that would replace the club members that coordinate and execute this event for other club members. Entry fees were $850 this year. if we pay each person $100 for their time working the event (that includes Friday registration, practice and qualifying), we'd need to charge each team a minimum of $600 additional. Given the current "conditions," how do you think that would have gone over? I still think the assumptions we made in the fall were very accurate.

You heard from one regular that didn't enter the event because he couldn't get enough funded drivers to make it worthwhile. Well, surprise....most teams need "funded drivers" for these types of events because the costs of tires, transportation, fuel, food and accomodations for crew and entry fees is considerable.

I know that you love to argue for argument's sake, and you've had precious little chance to engage people here in your games for the past two+ years. So be it. I don't.

As I said previously, the region will take all its learned this year and previous years and make a decision on what to do for '10.

[Bill Miller]

1. Yes. To be specific, more than 200 less than 300. Perhaps you'd like to stand out in 100 degree temps for 15+ hrs to work the event. Oh, and no bathroom breaks or meals for you. Perhaps getting paid a stipend will make that OK.


Well Gregg, now you're just being silly. Did it even hit 100 during the course of the race? And you forget that I've been to this even before. I've crewed for Kirk on multiple occasions, as well as others. I also know that they send cars out w/ food & drinks for the corner stations. So spare us the melodrama.


And just because you have that many workers show up, doesn't mean that you need that many to successfully put on the event.

[John Nesbitt]

Well Gregg, now you're just being silly. Did it even hit 100 during the course of the race? And you forget that I've been to this even before. I've crewed for Kirk on multiple occasions, as well as others. I also know that they send cars out w/ food & drinks for the corner stations. So spare us the melodrama.


And just because you have that many workers show up, doesn't mean that you need that many to successfully put on the event.

Actually, Gregg is spot-on. There were ~170 volunteer workers who signed up online, plus a few who did not, plus the 'compulsory volunteers' provided by each team, which works out to slightly over 200 people.

Speaking as one who has worked the past 5 12Hr's, either on a corner station or in pit road, this is not excessive.

The 'standing-up' jobs - flagging, pit marshall - are very grueling, especially in the sort of weather which we typically experience in June. They become tolerable (and attractive for volunteers) when there enough troops that we can rotate folks, and give them enough downtime to relax, hydrate, eat, rest, visit the bathroom, even spectate a little.

When the volunteer count starts falling off, the constant amount of work is spread over ever-fewer volunteers, who burn out and stay away, which reduces the headcount, which increase the individual workload ... It becomes a vicious circle.

[IPRESS]

I have raced the 12 HR 3 times in the last 7 years (every time it doesn't conflict with work.) If we run at night, fine. If we run totally in the day, fine. I am OK with making things easier on the people who are on the Flag Stands and Pit Road ALL DAY. I pretty sure we towed from the farthest away this year (If someone beat us on distance they should be committed) Cresson, Texas. We will tow again........Day or Night.
Do whats best for the event, it is always a must do.

[StephenB]

I think a survey of each volenteer would be a great idea. Ask them what they prefer and then take those ideas and/or recomendations and make your decisions. I think that us (paying racers) can then choose to attend or not. The last thing you want to do is drive away the volenteers. The volenteers in my mind are the ones that make up SCCA and make it the club that it is. I agree that to have a race you need racers but without volenteers the costs will rise and you are just delaying the decline in entries to a later year. If we say "to bad don't volenteer" and we then have to pay the extra $600 for an entry fee the event long term will not survive. Sorry to disagree with you Bill I just think that the regions need to think Long term. We do need entries for the short term but I recomend regions to do everything possible to make the event memorable by "wowing" us as consumers when we do attend the events so we show up next year and talk about how everyone should have attended!

Anyone from the 12hr attending Nelson? I am pretty excited to be attending my first ever endurance race longer than 3hrs!! Probably in for a shocking experience... so are the people that have the pit stall next to us :blink:

Stephen

[Marcus Miller]

What is the entry fee cost for the 12 hour at Summit and the 12 hour at Nelson?

[Bill Miller]

Stephen,

I don't disagree with you that the Regions need to think long-term, as does the entire Club (how long have we been waiting for that strategic plan?). I just don't think it's strategic when you make changes to something based on the wishes and desires of a group that's not paying for it, at the expense of those that are.

When I first started racing, if you wanted to run for series' points, you had to work a minimum amount of time at some specialty (tech, T&S, flagging, etc.). Personally, I think racers should be required to work the different specialties. They will bring a different perspective to the worker cadre, as many of the workers have never turned a wheel on the track.

I just don't get how people don't understand that it's the racers that are the reason for races, not the workers. Don't have enough workers? The racers will find some. And let's be honest, races are big social events for workers (not that they're not for racers). And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. I love the social atmosphere at races, and I think the camaraderie is great. But this is starting to sound like someone that gets invited to a party saying they won't come if the host doesn't provide certain things.

And maybe I've just seen too many people over the years that volunteer (not just racing) that do it because they expect something out of it. Do it because you want to do it, and you get your own intrinsic satisfaction out of it. Don't do it and then turn around and say "hey, I'm volunteering". If you have to advertise that you volunteer, you're probably volunteering for the wrong reasons.

[John Nesbitt]

I think that we make a mistake if we try to argue that one group - drivers or volunteers - is paramount, and that the other group needs to fall into line (or quit). This is a symbiotic relationship - both groups are essential to make this thing work.

Remember that this is club racing. Nobody is doing this for a living. So it has to be enjoyable and worthwhile for both drivers and volunteers.

I understand why the poster thought that 200 seemed like a very large number of volunteers. It does seem like a large number. The thing is that it breaks down into individual numbers for a bunch of different specialties.

For example, we need an absolute minimum of 65-70 flaggers to staff the various stations and to provide a minimum of off-time for each volunteer. Fewer than that and you start getting the sort of burn-out I referred to in my first post. A barely-acceptable model is 2 hours on, 1 hour off. A better model is 2 hours on, 2 hours off.

The fact that there are a number of folks working some other specialty is interesting, but irrelevant. We can't say to someone, "Well, you signed up for registration, but you have to flag a corner." They will simply walk away.

The operative word here is 'volunteer'. The whole package has to be attractive enough for drivers to volunteer their entries and for workers to volunteer their time.