240z Brake Pad Question

[Tom Donnelly]

Well, I'm just about out of my sets of Hawk HT 9 riveted pads for my 240z. I've heard Hawk doesn't make the HT 9's anymore. What pads are y'all running now?

Tom

[pablo]

Poterfield R-4 seem to be ok for me no initial bite stops good easy on the rotors

[Ron Earp]

Carbotechs. Most of the Z guys I know are using those, at least those racing around the VIR/CMP/RRR area. 10s seem to work well, I have used 12s and like those, and Parrish was going to try a set of 8s and let me know how those go.

12 > 10 > 8 with respect to brake torque. No ill effects on rotors with the 12s, even at CMP. I'm sure there are other pads that will work well too. I've been using Carbotechs for about four years and enjoy their service as well as the product.

[Tom Donnelly]

Thanks. Anybody running the Hawks ht10's?

[betamotorsports]

HT10s are going away from what I understand. Replaced by DTC60/70. Porterfield can make pretty much any pad shape out of any pad material they sell. I've run the DTC70s on my 350Z and they are wonderful. I like them better the PFC 01s.

[x-ring]

I'm using (or I will be if I ever get the car back on track) Hawk Blues. I tried some compound Porterfield but didn't see much difference WRT the blues. The tracks around here aren't particularly hard on brakes.

The roters don't last long usiing blues.

[pballance]

Tom, I am running the 10's. Seem to work well for me. If they go away I will try Blues and/or carbotech.

Wish you could make it to NSS but I understand the $$$. It is a fun track, keeps you busy. I hope Randy Shedd makes it so I can at least have someone to try and run with (if he doesn't run and hide from me :) )

[ITZ34]

I've been running the Blues for a long time. Tried Carbotech 10s this weekend on the front (have been running Carbotech rears)because I was having wear issues with the Hawks, but they only lasted 2 qualifying sessions and a 30 minute race. I used to get 2 full weekends on Blues and changed rotors every other set. This season, I only get one weekend now and it's chewing up the rotors. I haven't changed anything on the car, but this is getting ridiculous (and expensive). I'm running full bias to the rear.
I must be doing something wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[pballance]

How much cooling have you got running to the rotors?

Check the piston seal on the calipers. I actually cooked the seal and it was causing a pad to drag.

Just thinking out loud.....

[Tom Donnelly]

I must be doing something wrong. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


Maybe you're going faster. :)

Old tires could do that too. Can't stop as well with less sticky tires. If everything else is working and you have sufficient cooling, (you said nothing changed).

Tom

[Tom Donnelly]

Tom, I am running the 10's. Seem to work well for me. If they go away I will try Blues and/or carbotech.

I was leaning towards ht-10's cause I used to get the ht-9's riveted instead of bonded. The bonded would tear up quicker. Back in the day. Are you getting the Hawks through Carbotech? And are they the black or blue compound? The ht-9's were black.

Road Atlanta is hard on brakes, more so than Roebling. I guess its the downhill on the back straight.

I have to stay local this year, spent too much money just getting the car and trailer working! I might actually have to buy tires this year. I've been running on 6 year old Hoosiers that were in my parent's basement. Wrapped in trashbags for 6 years. They've held up pretty well so far. The Appalacian tire fella said all the Z's are running 15's this year too. 2 sets of 15 inch panasports. There's some more money there too. I think that will wait till next year.

Tom

[ITZ34]

I have 1 -3" hose running to the front of each caliper from an opening in the airdam under the bumper . It's attached directly using a modified dustshield.The seals on the caliper are cooked after only a couple of events, so maybe that's the problem. I'd like to get another hose in there but i can't see how with the space constraints.

Thanks

[Mike Mackaman]

I made some epoxy fiberglass composite ducts that allow a 3" hose to blow through the caliper. These drop the caliper temp about 200 degrees at Road Atlanta with a very fast driver, not me! I am working on a duct to split a 3" hose to blow on both sides of the rotor, but other things have kept me from finishing it.

Mike

[dspillrat]

Man,
You gotta get more air to your brakes.... At least 2 ducts, 3 needed to keep things cooler at Road Atlanta......hat on caliper, and 2 to the rotor...... Its not pleasant at pit out on the 10th lap hitting the floor...... Can ya say dirt tracking brakes!!!!!

I gotta get on the track!!!! Any Track!!!:eclipsee_steering:

David

[pballance]

Dave, Here is a link to an old thread that has pictures of ductwork.
http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22163&page=2

I don't have Katmans's pictures on this machine so I will post them up tomorrow along with Parrish's set up.

Mike, shoot me a pm with your email. I want to talk with you about the ducts you have built. I need an alternative to the caliper hat that I currently have.

[pballance]

Ok, here are the pictures of other racers solutions to Z brake ducting.

[ITZ34]

i really appreciate the help guys. Where does the second inlet come in from the front of the car. I have 1 on each side of the airdam. Do you cut 2 more holes in the airdam?

[pballance]

Dave,

I have a single duct in the face of the air dam per the GCR. It splits into the 2 lines that are then routed to the brakes.
Here is a link to my set up as I found it from the PO.
http://picasaweb.google.com/ITSa240/Zbrakes#

I have replaced the dryer duct and changed a few other minor things but you will get the general idea. My set up makes it interesting when changing rotors. I hope to alter that later this year.

[Tom Donnelly]

You can use other exising holes to from which to duct the brakes. The air dam has a great big hole in the center.

[ITZ34]

Thanks Paul. I was wondering about adding holes because of the rules. Do the 3 lines that Katman used all come from a single inlet?
I see I've got some work to do this weekend

[Tom Donnelly]

Chet's old z, the one that won the ARRC, had 2 ducts on each side of the air dam and 2 ducts attached under the bumper that went through the large center hole in the airdam. Totaling 6 ducts. I have a picture somewhere. The GCR denotes the ducts allowed in the airdam by total size. And the center section isn't really the airdam, its an existing hole. So they (Katman and Chet), had a duct for each of the 3 hoses that ran to the brakes. I don't remember if they ever got protested, or what happened if they did. The airdam ducts didn't go over the total allowed area for the airdam. As I recall. (I could be remembering wrong, and I'll try to find the pics)

Tom

[Tom Donnelly]

Here's one pic. Its hard to see the center ducts but they're there if you look close.
They're under and right by the bumper uprights on each side.

I'll try to find a better pic.

[Tom Donnelly]

Here's John Williams car, only 4 ducts though.

[Tom Donnelly]

Here's my car, although there's room for improvement. I have the clamshell on the rotors and the duct to the caliper. I need to run the 3rd set of ducts for more cooling. No pedal twice at 10 at Road Atlanta a couple of weekends back. The center ducts under the bumper could be bigger. Look back at John's car. My center duct is just to the right of the tow hook under the bumper.

[TomL]

Tom - There is NO limit on the number or size of ducts in the air dam. The only limit that applies is the number of holes you can cut in the front valance, which is basically one hole per side for a 3 inch diameter duct. As long as you don't cut more than one 3" hole in the valance, you can run as many ducts, and as big as you want, if you can figure out where you can run them (other than through the valance).

[Tom Donnelly]

Tom - There is NO limit on the number or size of ducts in the air dam. The only limit that applies is the number of holes you can cut in the front valance, which is basically one hole per side for a 3 inch diameter duct. As long as you don't cut more than one 3" hole in the valance, you can run as many ducts, and as big as you want, if you can figure out where you can run them (other than through the valance).

Tom,

You're right, and that's where I've been heading with this. I even think the hole can be larger than 3 inches, so you can have a duct that tapers down to the 3" hose.

You still have your yellow 200sx?

Tom

Where an air dam/spoiler is used, two total openings may be cut in the front valance to allow the passage of up to a three (3) inch diameter duct leading to each front brake/rotor assembly.
Where no air dam/spoiler is used, two total openings of a maximum size five (5) inches by seven (7) inches maybe cut in the front valance so that brake ducts can be added with a three (3) inch diameter hose leading to each front brake/rotor assembly.
c. No part of the car, except for the exhaust system and

[TomL]

The Nissan has only a single 3 inch duct per side, and they are located in the radiator opening. I have room to run the hose through an existing internal opening, so I don't have to cut anything. My car may be heavy, but it has big vented discs so I can get by with that little brake air. But it's marginal and I'm trying to decide how to run a second duct.

A problem I have with the rule that you cited is that on my car, it is easiest to have the airdam as a "chin" spoiler (i.e., a small strip - 3" tall - of plastic) bolted to the bottom of the stock valance. That leaves me without any real room to install an inlet into the spoiler. I'd like to install a 5x7" duct into the valance, but if I do that I'd have to eliminate the spoiler altogether.

So my options are:
1) chin spoiler and no more ducting
2) a bigger airdam (large enough for a duct) and cut a 3" hole in the valance, or
3) remove the spoiler and install the duct in the valance.

A fourth option, using the chin spoiler and a duct in the valance, wouldn't really allow me any advantages over the other three options. But it's illegal as the rule is now written.

I had a long discussion with Jeremy Thoennes about this, but I couldn't even get him to even understand what I wanted to do (I didn't think it was that hard). Anyway, I never could get any consideration of a change. But then I never sent in a formal request, either.

[Tom Donnelly]

Tom,

What if you fabricated a duct that was 3" wide by 2" tall? That would leave 1/2" top and bottom on the chin spoiler. I fabbed a duct from sheet alumninum that tapered into a 3" circle. I just formed the sheet into a cone shape, rivited it together, and cut the front to match the shape of the hole in the air dam. I worked with paper templates first until I got to a final configuration. I did it because I couldn't find a duct sold that was small enough for the Z car car. I wish I had a decent picture.

If you're at Road Atlanta in July, I'll find you and show you what I did if you want. It cost me like $4.00 per duct.

Tom

[Tom Donnelly]

Tom,

I re-read your post. You mean you can duct the air dam but not the chin spoiler? I hope that's not right.

Tom

[TomL]

I guess I should have been more clear. I am not legally prohibited from putting a duct in the chin spoiler, it's just that if you put even a 2" tall duct in a 3" tall spoiler, the structural integrity goes to pot. First time you run through the grass, you're likely to rip the whole thing apart. I use the "stock car" plastic, which is flexible and will take off road excursions just fine, but only if you don't cut most of it out for a brake duct.

If my front valance were further off the ground and I had room to run a 6+" tall spoiler, I'd put a duct in the spoiler. But I can't. Maybe I should just raise the ride height by 3 inches in the front to solve the problem?:)

[ITZ34]

Thanks Tom
I've seen pictures of Chet's car before, but didn't think you could legally cut four holes in the airdam.
The other 2 ducts I assume (as shown on John Williams' car) go through a hole you cut in the inner fender. Is that correct?

[ITZ34]

AHA Just ran out and looked at the car. I see where they go now

Thanks

[Tom Donnelly]

I use the "stock car" plastic, which is flexible and will take off road excursions just fine, but only if you don't cut most of it out for a brake duct.

If my front valance were further off the ground and I had room to run a 6+" tall spoiler, I'd put a duct in the spoiler. But I can't. Maybe I should just raise the ride height by 3 inches in the front to solve the problem?:)

I remember you passing me in the grass on the left just before the esses once. I think you handle off-road excursions just fine. :)

[pballance]

Hey Tom, If I didn't get the last ones, Pegasus has HT-10's in stock. :)

[Tom Donnelly]

Ok, thanks Paul. I think you found the brake drums the last time too.

Keep looking!