Is $350 for a single day regional a record?

[anthony1k]

Looking at the entry fee for the June 20 LRP. Is $350 for a single day regional a record? Not to be beating a dead horse, just wondering.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Why does it matter?

[rsx858]

$350 early and $400 regular for two 20 minute sessions

You would have to be crazy to register for that me thinks



Roughly how many people need to register for the region to break even?

[benspeed]

FOLKS! Let's not put ourselves out of business putting down our product. If everybody moans about an extra $50 and nobody shows, we will no longer have the races.

I always say the least expensive part of this sport is the entry fee...

[rsx858]

Ben, Yea I hate to bad mouth our own thing here but its just gotten rediculous. Its time for a serious overhaul. Yea this topic is a dead horse but hey this club needs a good chop cut rebuild.

[lateapex911]

Next time you're at the track, find Mr Skip Barber, and politely ask what's up with the $56,000, plus plus plus, that he charges. A region needs to find (rumour has it) between 70K and 80K to break even. I think NER is expecting a loss, but is "taking one for the team" for this year.

Jeremy correct me if I misspoke.

[gran racing]

Wow Matt, no I feel pretty silly for signing up for the race. I was actually happy it wasn't $400 regardless of when one registered. Maybe I should just do comp schools instead.


Next time you're at the track, find Mr Skip Barber, and politely ask what's up with the $56,000, plus plus plus, that he charges. A region needs to find (rumour has it) between 70K and 80K to break even. I think NER is expecting a loss, but is "taking one for the team" for this year.

Doing just that is aweful tempting. Think Steph would ever invite me as a guest to the club again? LOL!

[tnord]

Roughly how many suckers need to register for the region to break even?

70k rental + 10k misc expenses = 80k / 350 = ~230 entries.

fuck that shit. i just wouldn't hold events there anymore.

[rsx858]

70k rental + 10k misc expenses = 80k / 350 = ~230 entries.

fuck that shit. i just wouldn't hold events there anymore.

Agreed


Two ways this goes down, we can keep begging our membership to pay bogus prices for all these events until we've lost the shirts off our backs

or

we can cut back on our over-supply of events especially ones as crazy as this and next year provide fewer but better attended, cheaper, and profitable events.

[dickita15]

Well it is really up to the drivers who pay the bills. Gee I guess that is the way it should be. If you love LRP with its history and unforgiving nature and are willing to pay $350 to race at the legendary track SCCA is providing that opportunity to you. If you do not like the track, are uncomfortable with the limited track time and think it is too much money fine SCCA provides event at Pocono and NHMS just for you.
As long as enough members want to race there we will. When they vote no with their wallets it will go away. if you do not want to race there it has no effect of you. If you think that having less races at LRP will make more drivers enter Pocono or NH I believe you are mistaken.

[rsx858]

When they vote no with their wallets it will go away.

the vote is in... Regions have lost money on events like this, yet they have not gone away.:shrug:

[dj10]

Looking at the entry fee for the June 20 LRP. Is $350 for a single day regional a record? Not to be beating a dead horse, just wondering.

Your out of your mind if you pay that! Hell our region has a double this weekend for $300.00. But I guess the cost of living is way higher where you guys are at, so you can afford it. ;~)

[wepsbee]

I was going to do the school and regional but I think now only the regional. Line must be drawn somewhere.

[mossaidis]

The wallet agruement won't work. As long as NARRC/NERRC and others keep offering LRP events, folks will go because of series or region loyalty, scheduling options even if pricing goes to $500/day - yet regions will continue to loss money since they are not going to get the entires needed to break even.

Until Palmer comes aboard, Monticello opens it doors at a cheaper rate or we limit our schedule (which I think we should - from 14 to 10 events), this trend will continue. Paying $350 at LRP stinks, yet I know the reality of the situation given the story from many HPDE/TT clubs I used to run with. Yes, it's $70K-$80K/day. This is business and Skip will do what is necessary. Don't get me started on the "paving fee" that man chanrged clubs/regions for years - where's that money? GONE and probably spent on buying new cars for his racing shool!

Other the other hand, LRP is a 1.5 hour tow for me - no need for hotel room *maybe* unless it's two day event. Don't get me started on hotels around LRP - $200/night for reasonable room - BLAH it's tah-tah CT - so I am okay with one day events at LRP.

I *Think* am going to the Pro-IT at Mohud's LRP National event on 8/1. It will be more affordable since it's Pro-IT but still a ton of money - why, cause I feel bad about my region's situation and decision - but so be it. I have voiced my opinion here and with my regional and will NOT likely support another event unless the timing is right (no back to back weekend racing) and pricing does not go up.

I like Andy's idea: keep the June school and runoffs at LRP - drop everything else. It's not worth it.

Needless to say, I (and I imagine all the NE regions) can't wait for (Dick) Palmer Motorsports Park.

[anthony1k]

We just had a regional at LRP and that was "only" $290. I'd like to know if NNJR made or lost money on that one. I agree that, as racing goes, $60 is a drop in the proverbial bucket. But you have to draw the line somewhere. Why not $400 or $500? LRP entry fees are becoming a test case for price elasticity of demand.

Having said that, I love the place and I plan to be there.

[BruceG]

Next time you're at the track, find Mr Skip Barber, and politely ask what's up with the $56,000, plus plus plus, that he charges. A region needs to find (rumour has it) between 70K and 80K to break even. I think NER is expecting a loss, but is "taking one for the team" for this year.

Jeremy correct me if I misspoke.

Jake..You are so right!! Skip Barber doesn't care abour NER SCCA(or any SCCA region) IMHO. It's not the region's fault that they are getting charged crazy prices.

What Skip doesn't seem to realize is that the same folks that race in NER SCCA also ateend the Koni Challenge, ALMS and the Rolex and might not be so inclined to buy tickets for his events given our treatment by LRP. SCCA made Lime Rock what it is today. I went to my first race in 58 and a zillion regional and national races in the 60's and 70's and the track would not have survived with out those races!!:eclipsee_steering:

[Jeremy Billiel]

Wow guys... How many more times are we going to have this conversation?

Yes NNJ lost money at LRP. They lost a good amount AND they were able to get around usual contractual items like having to use LRP catering, etc.

If you don't like the entry fee, DO NOT GO!!! If you like it great. Yes NER will loose money on this event. How many cars will be there for the school? Don't forget that the school is the same price to rent the track and we do it to support our new racers!

Guys please, please think big picture here... Please come to Road Racing board meetings, everyone has all these opinions, but every CRB meeting I am at its the same group of people doing their best to put on these events.

[Andy Bettencourt]

You guys who are blaming Skip need to talk to Bob Zecca about the finances of the track and what is profitable and why. He has many contraints.

Vote with your wallets. 3 Regionals at LRP is WAY to much. I am not sure how many times we have to tell the PTB's this. I'll say this again:

Too much supply for the current demand (which is not bad BTW). Pull back supply and watch average car counts and event profitablity rise and entry fees fall.

I bleed SCCA red and NER yellow...but until the organizers realize they are doing it to themselves, they put the regions at risk.

[benspeed]

While I'm trying to be a good sport about it and take the high road - ya sure won't see me there.

[mossaidis]

Ben - you are able to stay objective even though you carry the same addiction as they rest of us - good for you.

Jeremy - your method of using demand and people's ability to spend money is a tactical one, not strategic. This ecomony will still suffer for another year (at least). Like Andy, my advice would be to plan ahead and have the NESCCA be smarter about event planning. So not to repeat, I completely agree with Andy here - NE regions will put themselves out of business at this rate or only cater to the rich and wealthy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Trust me when I say that $60-$90 extra for the event isn't going to keep me away. I do understand that some people have thresholds and they vote by not showing up. Short sighted? Maybe, but it is what it is.

Where my thersholds are is the quantity of events. I simply can't afford FORTEEN NARRC/NERRC/NNJR/NYRRC events. I choose 8 weekends. The +/- $90 isn't the issue. If you have 1500 entrants over 15 races, you get 100 entrants per race. If you only have 10 races, you get 150 per race. People will still race the same amount of races.

[raffaelli]

$8.75 a minute is kinda steep. Sucks really. Skip sat next to me on the hill at the Koni race. I didn't think to bitch at him. Just noted to him that it was a beautiful day and that the World Challenge was missing.

I love the place. My family loves the place. I can be there in 40 minutes with the trailer. I will be there and at the test day earlier in the week.:026:

[xr4racer]

What everyone should know is the $300 double at Beaverun this weekend will be lucky to get 65 cars.

matt

[chuck baader]

DAMMIT MAN:026: How many of you that are complaining about entry fees have actually sat on your region board and discussed what a reasonable entry fee would be based on the entries YOU THINK WILL ATTEND? None of us have a crystal ball so we do the best we can. And to hear the complaining really makes board members want to VOLUNTEER their time and effort to give you a place to race. Maybe you should take up golf. Chuck (ex-SCCA Alabama Region Board Member)

[mossaidis]

DAMMIT MAN:026: How many of you that are complaining about entry fees have actually sat on your region board and discussed what a reasonable entry fee would be based on the entries YOU THINK WILL ATTEND? None of us have a crystal ball so we do the best we can. And to hear the complaining really makes board members want to VOLUNTEER their time and effort to give you a place to race. Maybe you should take up golf. Chuck (ex-SCCA Alabama Region Board Member)

From one cynic to another, you have an excellent point but it won't stop people from venting or sharing their options - please take the good and seperate out the bad. As a board member you should know that no good deed goes unpunished - sorry if you were burnt out. Remember that these forums are just that - a place for folks to speak their mind sometimes without the "filter".

[dj10]

Trust me when I say that $60-$90 extra for the event isn't going to keep me away.

If I had your money, I'd burn mine.:)

[anthony1k]

Price alone does not tell the whole story. The key here is value. Track time I think is important. It takes a fair amount of time for most of us to load and unload car and equipment, tow to and from the track, and setup and close shop at the track. For 40 minutes of track time (assuming no incidents) just isn't worth it. I liked what NNJR did with the Friday T&T. I felt that between the two days I was getting a decent value.

IMHO LRP is not a good place to have a school. Finances aside, I think it is hard to put on a quality school in one day.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Chuck, some of us know the issues. Here are some:

LRP is VERY expensive.
The value is low.
SCCA gets 4 weekends a year there and they refuse to give any up because they probably won't get it/them back.
3 of the 4 weekends threaten to cost Regions money, sometimes significant dollars. Sometimes dollars that the smaller Regions don't have.
The Regions put on great events given the constraints they have. The entry fee is a chicken and egg thing as you know. If you knew 250 cars would show, you would have a low entry fee. If you had a low entry fee, more cars would show up. The balancing act is the issue.

Regional execs and reps from series come on here and ask us our opinons every year. They tell us we need to support these events or lose them...all while we are telling them we have too many events yet nobody is willing to bite the bullet and consolidate.

I will be sending out invitations for a 'NE Drivers Tast Force'. A group that would want to work together to present some ideas to the PTB for consideration for 2010. If you would ike to be part of that group, please send me a PM with your e-mail and I will get you on. We know the PTB work hard at a hard job - hell, I live that every day on the ITAC, but we need to figure out a way to get them to listen - AS WELL AS take the time to learn what we don't know about the issues so we can find a solution that makes it work for everyone.

Bottom line? We have people working on our behalf for racing that want what is best for the racers, the workers and the Regions. Let's help them help us all.

[seckerich]

I will offer a couple of options from a fellow race chair and BOD member:

If you did not make money when the economy was good with 4 races you never will. Dropped my regions National for that very reason. Less work for our already stressed worker pool.

Set an entry fee up to a certain car count and then rebate if the number is met. Share the risk as it may be. Who in their right mind runs 4 races at any track that loose money?

If you have 2 smaller regions that run races there and are close to loosing everything have them cancel a weekend and share the other. This will get worse before it gets better and it will take some creative thinking to get through.

Take it for what it is worth and do not be afraid to get involved and call your elected officials.

[JLawton]

Considering one heat cycle on my tires is $100, the extra $$ for the entry isn't that much. Plus I don't have to pay for a motel and only one tank of gas for the TV. And I save by skimping on my safety gear.......

But I am looking forward to Palmer.........



(And I was kidding about the safety gear)

[Andy Bettencourt]

And while Palmer *MAY* give us a less expensive option, it will compound our supply problem...

[gran racing]

Set an entry fee up to a certain car count and then rebate if the number is met.

Interesting idea.

Jeff, you're right! We should create a new hate thread about tires!!! I am absolutely at fault with this but I somewhat hide the tire costs in my head. Not sure why, maybe because it's pretty crazy so I just block it out? Tires are a big factor in killing my budget and what my wife hates the most. Then again tire budgets do range quite a between people and how competitive they want to be. I know I went from freebees or old SRF tires ($100 / set) to a budget I try very hard not to think about.

I can't think of any way to do it, but it would be great if there was a way to reduce everyone's tire budget. Spec GAC Hoosiers? yeah, I know... lol

How many Palmer dates do we have allocated per year per the agreement?

[lateapex911]

and only one tank of gas for the TV.


Really, Jeff, try the electric models. They've been out for a few years now, and they are far quieter and less smelly.

[Robert Zecca]

Guys,

A few weeks ago I wrote a post "SCCA IT IS TIME FOR CHANGE". This is what I am speaking about. NOW WE MUST SUPPORT NER AND THEIR EVENT and then we need to think about the future and how this can change for next year. Please deal with this for now and then lets work together later. We have ideas that may work for the better.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[tdw6974]

I will offer a couple of options from a fellow race chair and BOD member:

If you did not make money when the economy was good with 4 races you never will. Dropped my regions National for that very reason. Less work for our already stressed worker pool.

Set an entry fee up to a certain car count and then rebate if the number is met. Share the risk as it may be. Who in their right mind runs 4 races at any track that loose money?

If you have 2 smaller regions that run races there and are close to loosing everything have them cancel a weekend and share the other. This will get worse before it gets better and it will take some creative thinking to get through.

Take it for what it is worth and do not be afraid to get involved and call your elected officials.
Steve, Amen to the get Involved.Spent last evening as comp board member for Glen region trying to keep things in line for the region and the Customers(racers) At some point I suspect the regions will make a tough decision to drop events. We as a region are struggling with our October event as the"biggest Loser" We share the National with an adjoining region this is our "off" year. We tried to move the driver's school to July but WGI controls the test day on Friday and that is the way it is. I'm sure other tracks are the same way. We discussed the rebate but not certain how to handle it. Other regions have done it it would be a matter of logistics. Also discussed was a reduced entry fee for entering in 2 groups. asking regions that don't have a track/races to help fund the drivers school for drivers from there region? do we need to spread the area of scheduling so less conflicts of events. ? TW:eclipsee_steering:

[gran racing]

Tom, in the future, maybe your region (and others) could partner up with a HPDE group to complete a school?


Please deal with this for now and then lets work together later.

If only it were this simple. For most it's not just a matter of the extra money allocated to entry fees. Like Andy said, people can only afford so many races. Then there's the whole economy. Although I hate to admit it, this is a hobby and when people are cutting costs this one sure would be the logical choice (at least to others in the family).

[Doc Bro]

Guys,

Please deal with this for now and then lets work together later.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca


The problem is Bob that some have already brought this up in years past. Certainly AB (and I) as drivers reps talked about these things 2 seasons ago....at LRP in an open forum, the regions missed the opportunity this year (and they're paying for it) and if history repeats will miss again next season. If anything the problem is even worse this year with the addition of a robust Pro-IT schedule.

We should've cut races right at the beginning of the season when it was deemed that '09 would be lean.

R

[dj10]

It's a damn shame you guys and Gals are stuck with so few choice's when it come to tracks. You want to play you'll have to pay no matter how much your region will lose. :~(

[gran racing]

I don't think we are. It's just that pricing is a bit tough at some.

Thunderbolt
Lightening
Lime Rock
New Hampshire Motorsports Park
Watkins Glen
Pocono (yuck!)
Summit Point (a little hike, but do-able)
Palmer coming soon - sweet!

[Andy Bettencourt]

We are lucky to have choices for sure. But it creates over supply - and that is what is killing entries. Just 2 events at each of these tracks and we have the potential for 16 race weekends. Data in NER shows most racers do LESS THAN 4 races per year. :dead_horse:

[lateapex911]

One of the issues with Lime Rock is it's location. Sure, it's got history, it's a challenging little bullring, it's pretty and all that, but unlike every other track on Daves list, it's just over an hour from the edge of the NYC metro area, one of the biggest populations in America.

NHMP is nearly 4 hours towing, the Glen is about 5, NJMP is 3, (or a LOT more if you come from east of the Hudson or north of the city), Pocono is 3 (but very undesirable from nearly every standpoint), and Summit is 5.

So, LRP means less towing and gas for the NCY metro area racer. And less time. On top of that, many families prefer Dad to be home during the weekend, and as there is no racing on Sunday, Dad can head up Friday night and be home for Sunday with the kids. Of course, it costs more, because Skip either has handled the finances badly, or he knows what he has, or both.

(IIRC, he bought the place in the late 80s/90s. He no longer owns the school, but had made the school a "sweet" rental contract with the track, perhaps to entice buyers with a juicy balance sheet. Rumour had it that the lack of cash from the school coming in as rental forced other prices up. Only Skip probably knows for sure.)

Until Palmer is online (assuming our agreement is financially better than LRP), we'll be looking at high rentals and events that struggle to break even. I'd assume the regions are trying to weather the storm until the Palmer option is really there before getting too agessive with schedule changes.

One thing I do know, is that the entire situation is more complex than we probably are aware of. I've attended NER Competition Board meetings, and I was impressed with the decisions being made and the "between a rock and a hard place" nature of the situation.

[mossaidis]

This is a caffiene induced question and I have NOT done the research lately - will monticello ever be available to SCCA? I believe NASA will be or has raced there already.

[CRallo]

shut up and drive! :p

[Bill Umstead]

My ramble...

I agree with much of what has been stated in this thread. However, due to its convenient location, LRP still is a favored track. I can get there and back home in a little more than one hour each way. Apparently a lot of the posters also have this feeling.

Why don't we in the NE have more early DS to get newbie racers out for the season. I have a newbie driver coming for the Friday school (so I will run Saturday) but he can't get another school until the October Glen Region event (which apparently is their "biggest loser"). He could not do the NJMP event in April. Could we get more entries if we graduated more racers earlier in the season?

I agee that there is too much supply for the current demand. I also run HRG and due to the issue with getting separate track time at SCCA Regional events, we cut our schedule dramatically for this season. We used to be able to put 20-25 cars on track.We weren't getting sufficient entries in the last couple of years to make the regions interested in giving us a separate run group. Hopefully, fewer events this year will equate to larger HRG car counts. We'll see.

For all of the smaller regions, we really need to band together on these events. I thought last week's NNJR event (T&T/Regional) was a good value at $515. I got 1.5 hr track time on Friday and damn good racing on Saturday. And did not have to stay in a local hotel which would have cost a couple of bucks. But car counts were down, with only three run groups for the T&T (about 75-80 cars total(?)) Firday, and only 145 entries for Saturday. Not a winning proposition for NNJR.

As for Pocono, few people like it, but it is close for us in NY and NJ, reasonably cheap, and if the region would run the two configurations like they did a few years back, it might even be interesting (sorta like the long and short course at WGI).

My .02

See some of you on the 20th.

Bill Umstead

[raffaelli]

This is a caffiene induced question and I have NOT done the research lately - will monticello ever be available to SCCA? I believe NASA will be or has raced there already.


I have asked them this questions a few times. I never really got an answer.

[Seabee]

You guys who are blaming Skip need to talk to Bob Zecca about the finances of the track and what is profitable and why. He has many contraints.

Vote with your wallets. 3 Regionals at LRP is WAY to much. I am not sure how many times we have to tell the PTB's this. I'll say this again:

Too much supply for the current demand (which is not bad BTW). Pull back supply and watch average car counts and event profitablity rise and entry fees fall.

I bleed SCCA red and NER yellow...but until the organizers realize they are doing it to themselves, they put the regions at risk.

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?

[gran racing]

It's too much supply amoung all the tracks that are reasonable options for us. Maybe it means cut 3 NHIS races (or what ever) and keep LRP as-is.

[Doc Bro]

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?


Because LRP gives much less "bang for the buck", actually not even close. Don't look at the LRP events in a vacuum add them to the 10 ++ NHIS events, plus the POC, and Glen and NJMP.....see. LRP 's 4 may not seem like a lot but on top of an already full schedule it is. When you marry those 4 with the cost/amount of track time ratio....it's a no-brainer. While LRP has it's merits (I don't think that's argue-able) if you had a dead foot you'd cut it off right, otherwise it'd kill the whole body.

Plus this year there is a vigorous Pro-IT schedule which has served to pull in some #'s to sparse events it has also removed some #'s from regionals as well. There are manby guys who are viewing Pro-IT as it's own series (the exact opposite of what it's intended to be).

Look at it this way if there were only 5 events a year (1 at each of our "in region" tracks) what would the car counts look like? HUGE....the exact opposite of what we currently have.

R

[dickita15]

It's too much supply amoung all the tracks that are reasonable options for us. Maybe it means cut 3 NHIS races (or what ever) and keep LRP as-is.


There are 5 regional weekends at NHMS. As I said in the other thread the NH races are similar to the Marrs races at Summit in that it is a mostly self contained series. There is much less crossover than one would guess. It looks like about 20% between those two tracks. IMHO cutting NH races would not make much of a difference in LRP entries.
Lime Rock has three regionals this year and they were scheduled last fall. Should there be only two, maybe yes but you have to weigh not only the current economy but the long term as well.
Two answer a previous question our deal with Palmer gives SCCA 5 loud weekends, so maybe one national and 4 regionals.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy B., you mention we have too much supply. I count the following at New Hampshire: 1 school, 1 National, 1 Pro-IT, 1 Enduro, and 10 Regionals. So why is 4 races and 1 school at LRP too much?

Good question Steve. Rob did a good job but I will add this:

*I* look at the whole NARRC schedule, drop the schools and most of the Pro IT (because the schools are not targeted at us and the Pro IT usually run INSIDE event weekends so they are a double dip opportunity) and see what I have.

I have a meeting with a person from NER soon and here is what he is going to say: "Yes we have a lot of events at NHMS, but they all make money..." Meaning there is enough demand at each of those races to sustain the dates and run a good program.

Now add in LRP 3 times. No doubles, high entry fees - low value when compared to NHMS, WGI, NJMP - and probably Palmer when it comes on line. If LRP pulls from the Tri-state area, has some great history, and arguably a WAY better track than NHMS...why do the events lose money?

I submit again that members have many other choices that provide them with better value. NJMP can be expensive but they can do a weekend 'Triple'. NER hosts doubles and triples at NHMS for well under $300. So while we have too many choices, that is a loaded statement. We have too many 'good' choices that hurt the participation at a track with low value. It's just the natural evolution of a competitive environment that is taking effect. Now the issue to ME is that we hang on to these LRP dates with white knuckles and don't realize that money losers are dumb and dangerous - especially when the historical data is there to tell you that you will be literally 'risking it all'. And it's not a 'high risk, high reward'...it's 'high risk, no reward'.

I love Lime Rock. So do many people. I would run there 5 times a year. But I believe there is demand enough for us to be there twice a year (Regionally - since WE are only regional, I can't speak for the National guys). Once for a school and single - and once for the only really realiable event of the year, the NARRC Runoffs. And I am fully willing to admit that I could be wrong.......we may only have enough demand for that value-proposition once a year.

At some point we have to admit that Lime Rock is what it is. People have been voting with their wallets for a good few years now...I HATE to see hard working and well intentioned volunteers take a beating on these events but I do feel the writing has been on the wall. We as drivers need to advise them on what to do. We either need to rally and support what we want to keep, or we need to take a bullet for the betterment of the entire system.

[Seabee]

Andy. Thanks, I think this is a healthy discussion for everyone to chime in.

I don't understand the low car count at LRP and the success of NHMS. They are equal hauls for me but I rarely put NHMS on my schedule. A combination of car set-up, hard on equipment and I don't care for the layout. But it works for a lot of people and makes money so that would be difficult to argue.

Maybe the lack of doubles at LRP have an effect. Can a solo event be run on the skid pad-go kart area concurrently with a regional?

I fall into the category of a limited schedule and not chasing points. So I haul to WGI three times a year and pay 250 for a 3 session test day before a regional.

And if we talk about bank for the buck. Why has the 12-hour dropped off. Not long ago there were lotteries, etc where it was full in minutes. Not sure what the entry is but most likely less than $100 per hour.

So is it simply a matter of economy and we must ride it out or is there a fundamental issue with the SCCA program?

[Greg Amy]

At some point we have to admit that Lime Rock is what it is. People have been voting with their wallets for a good few years now...
+eleventybillion.

Lime Rock is, simply put, too expensive for SCCA Club Racing, given the existing demand. Let them have their country club, and we'll go play on the "public courses". - GA

[Greg Amy]

So is it simply a matter of economy and we must ride it out or is there a fundamental issue with the SCCA program?

Steven, the rental prices at LRP have climbed substantially over the last 10 years. A decade ago - when Skip needed the income - I think we were there for $25k-30k a weekend? Since then Skip has - rightly so - recognized the value of the place and priced it accordingly; today it's 750 c-notes to go play. No one should fault him for maximizing his income; if you or I had it we'd be doing the same. Skip owes nothing to SCCA and vice-versa, it's purely a business relationship.

As such, there are not enough SCCA racers willing to pony up the funds to go race there to cover the costs. Notice: Club. Unless we find some sugar-daddy willing to "sponsor" SCCA Regional events (for what return on that investment?), the entry fees must cover costs to sustain ourselves long-term. Figure eight groups, max 30 (?) per group, means 240 racers paying the way. Divide that into $75k and you get just over $300. But, given we rarely max out all groups (wings and things rarely fill up, and Big Bore is a big bore), I'd say we're looking at an average group size of less than 20, meaning an average cost per racer of $470. And, as we can see from the original post and from the car counts this weekend at $350, that's just not going to happen. Hell, NNJR only had 149 online entries at en entry fee of $290!

Revenue must equal or exceed costs to stay in biz...

Ergo, it's apparent that there's not enough racers out there willing to pay the costs to play at Skip's country club. If we only had one event per year at LRP to choose from (make it the once-a-year NARRC Runoffs, a-la IT Fest and ARRC) you might get enough interest to break even. But when there's three weekends there to choose from you're going to never make expenses... :shrug:

GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

Maybe the lack of doubles at LRP have an effect.


This points directly to VALUE. If we could race on Friday at LRP (only qualifying or practice is allowed on Fridays, nothing on Sundays), we could have a traditional double or a creative triple there for the same money!

Many are with you on the LRP vs. NHMS issue...but people also want to race so they choose the velue with the most to offer.

[Ed Funk]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster:D?

[Andy Bettencourt]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster:D?

It's a great format but nobody seems to use it.

[Seabee]

Some other items for thought. Why are the wings & big bore counts down? I would guess that entry fees are the minor expense to their program versus let say SM where entry and tires are the majority.

NNJR had 38+/- SM entries last week.

Maybe one weekend (Sat) at LRP should be set up like the IT fest so a region can make or break even and we can still keep a LRP data alive.

From what it sounds the current math is not making it for SCCA at LRP so either some change is made or it will most likely go away.

And more on the value/dollar issue. I attend the test days at LRP for around $225 for 5-20 minute sessions. And car counts are ususally low.

[Doc Bro]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster:D?


Problem is that alot of guys don't want to take a day off to qualify. If your self- employed like me no work, no pay. So in reality for some it makes the entry fee even more expensive.

R

[lateapex911]

Yup- The no racing on Sunday thing at Lime Rock makes a tough situation even harder.

And Skip plays hardball,..I think, but could be wrong...that he won't rent out the "loud" weekend date unless you buy Friday AND Saturday. But...no racing on Friday. ;(

So, no matter what, a region is on the hook for $70K.
IF we could get Sat only for half that, it would make financial sense. Doc Bro points out the advantage of the one day Sat regional. No time from work on Friday. Or Thurs night. Lots of companies are cool with leaving early on a Friday in the summer, So it works...bust out early Fri afternoon, bang out a quick regional and hit the beach with the kids on Sunday. If only we could do it for $35K instead of $70K.

So, what to do with the Friday is the tricky part. PDX, Schools and test days look like they are good options, but it seems like they aren't "good enough".

[BruceG]

+eleventybillion.

Lime Rock is, simply put, too expensive for SCCA Club Racing, given the existing demand. Let them have their country club, and we'll go play on the "public courses". - GA

Moot point....but if it weren't for SCCA regional races over the years LRP wouldn't exist today!

[Ed Funk]

Problem is that alot of guys don't want to take a day off to qualify. If your self- employed like me no work, no pay. So in reality for some it makes the entry fee even more expensive.

R

Yeah, I understand as I'm self employed also. I work 6 days a week year round, so that I can afford to take the occasional vacation and/or race weekend.

[dickita15]

?Qual Fri. am for Sat am race. Qual Fri. pm for Sat pm race? Seems that I remember something like that from the days when we discovered that tires made from rubber were faster:D?

Mohawk Hudson Region tried this format just a few years ago. Solid innovative idea but the internet boards did not believe they could pull it off, that the schedule was impossible and that peoples afternoon races would get cut short. Entries were terrible. Ironically because of the low car count Mo Hud combined race groups and everyone got a ton of track time, but the region took a bath.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mohawk Hudson Region tried this format just a few years ago. Solid innovative idea but the internet boards did not believe they could pull it off, that the schedule was impossible and that peoples afternoon races would get cut short. Entries were terrible. Ironically because of the low car count Mo Hud combined race groups and everyone got a ton of track time, but the region took a bath.

Actually Dick, IIRC, low car counts that weekend were more due to it being one of THREE back-to-back-to-back doubles. Pocono, then LRP, then NHMS.

We can only handle so much. Pocono paid better points, NHMS has better value. LRP is the first one off the schedule for most. Not me, but most.

[ner88]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?):D
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?

[Robert Zecca]

REGARDING MONTICELLO.

The track was never intended in design for actual racing so I do not ever believe we will be able to race there. It is only good for touring, pdx, etc......

I like what Doc Bro had to say in his thread regarding Pro IT. I hope people listen and learn from his words because Pro IT may go away next year if things do not change.

Bob Zecca

[StephenB]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?):D
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?


YES :happy204:

Create a Series that everyone can and wants to run in, Draw the crowds and have a series we can all enjoy and afford!! I would rather run a summer long "series" than 1 event here and there as it spreads the cost factor into a summer thing rather than a weekend thing! (Perception is everything to my wife!)

I think something like a "northern" north east series and a "southern" north east series would work AWESOME! Top 5 from each Series get Gaurenteed entry into the NARRC Championship at LRP and IF the entries don't fill up by a certain deadline than anyone else outside the top 5 in each class in each series can run first come first served until the run group is filled. I bet that would bring new meaning to the NARRC Championship like it had in the 80's and 90's
To me it seems as though this would help travel expenses and hopefully eliminate some weekends of the schedule by eliminating some of the tracks we currently are running to successfully run in a series. I actually think this would work similar to how it works for the National guys/gals. We would just need to hype up the NARRC Championship event at LRP and make it a valid goal for our peers! :smilie_pokal:

Stephen

Edit: Maybe we should do some math and planning... :blink: utilizing past participation numbers and make it a % of the total class rather than just top 5. Some run groups have so many classes that maybe the top 5 is to many cars and other run groups like SRF and SM should get more than 5 due to the higher attendence...

[Andy Bettencourt]

So, here is the question" Is NARRC the problem?"
Some facts as I understand them:
Made up of 4 regions, of which only one has a track(or two).
80% of all entries come from NER.
The intent was to encurrage competitors to compete at all regions' NARRC events.???
Take away the NJ events and you have NERRC(oh and Pocono but who care?):D
Questions:
With all the issues we face is NARRC out lived it's purpose?
Who actually runs the series (right now)?
Should we create a new series that will address todays market place?

NARRC isn't the problem. NERRC isn't the problem. NYSRRC isn't the problem. The problem is regions holding too many events at a track that drivers don't see enough value in - thereby creating a losing proposition at 3 of the 4 events there per year.

If the events at WGI, NJMP and NHMS all make money at resonable entry fees, they stand on there own.

[ner88]

So if NY dosen't hold the NARRCoff (Their only NARRC event), MOHUD has no regionals and NNJ can't afford to lose again at LRP, there won't be too many events at LRP, seems to solve that problem!
NARRC becomes a NNJ/NER series? HOw many people will travel between NJMP and NHMS? FACT: NOT Many!

[Andy Bettencourt]

So if NY dosen't hold the NARRCoff (Their only NARRC event), MOHUD has no regionals and NNJ can't afford to lose again at LRP, there won't be too many events at LRP, seems to solve that problem!
NARRC becomes a NNJ/NER series? HOw many people will travel between NJMP and NHMS? FACT: NOT Many!

Like I have said Jerry, NER should hold their school/single and the NARRC Runoffs. It was nice to share when there was enough demand to need to share. Now there is not.

NARRC needs an overhaul too but that is a WHOLE 'nother story. It should be run by ANYBODY other than the execs from Regions. Let it, like Pro IT, stand or fall on it's own. I believe those who race for the NARRC Championship want to do so at a variety of tracks. A true Divisional series. NHMS, LRP, WGI, NJMP, Pocono, etc.

[ner88]

Andy
I agree, let's all work together and create a series that we can sell to each region/track, call it NARRC or whatever. What we have now is broke and we need to fix it.

[StephenB]

I would agree with you Andy that some ok Several people (but not all) want to race at a variaty of tracks which is one thing that makes The NARRC successfull. I referenced "I actually think this would work similar to how it works for the National guys/gals" and a great adder that you bring up is being able to run at other tracks so maybe we should steal the way the National division runs the points to go to the runnoffs. They allow "out of Region points" to factor into the equation but still limit the number of events. This would allow someone like me that can't afford to travel to run in the "Northern" North East Series and fight for a series championship and still allow someone like yourself to run at several tracks. Then we both can get a chance in the NARRC Runnoffs And be crowned the NARRC Champion! Not sure exactly how the National Guys/Gals run it but if we can copy some of those ideas to create 2 neat series that feed of eachother we may drive some of us to run in even 1 more event per year (without all the travel) then maybe someone like me could be the NARRC Runnoffs champion!

I think a big part of the problem for me anyway is the NARRC series is to large and I cannot afford it from both a time and $$ standpoint so I have chosen to run a different series alltogether. In the end it may be close to the same cost in travel and entry value per track time but I am saving a ton on Maintance and vacation time.

Stephen

[gran racing]

Of all the people that race in various events, how many are actually following one of these series?

Just curious because I really don't care which region is hosting a race, what series it maybe part of - I care about the quality of the event. For example, IT Fest - which might be THE best organized event and thought out event I've attended (both years). ARRC. Summit's Labor Day Double. Runoffs at LRP.

As far as regions having to purchase a Friday & Sat event - sell it to a HPDE club. At $345 per entry, SCDA is sold out for the upcoming event at Lime Rock. Sell it to a PCA region. We essentially have no PDX program in the N.E. Maybe sell all but one session and have that as a "SCCA Club Racing Grooming Group".

[Greg Amy]

NARRC isn't the problem. NERRC isn't the problem. NYSRRC isn't the problem. The problem is regions holding too many events at a track that drivers don't see enough value in - thereby creating a losing proposition at 3 of the 4 events there per year.
This can't be stressed enough.

Even though we've tried...

[Andy Bettencourt]

As far as regions having to purchase a Friday & Sat event - sell it to a HPDE club. At $345 per entry, SCDA is sold out for the upcoming event at Lime Rock. Sell it to a PCA region. We essentially have no PDX program in the N.E. Maybe sell all but one session and have that as a "SCCA Club Racing Grooming Group".

They can't afford it Dave. The rent for an 89dB day is significantly lower than the 103dB days of which there are a limited quantity of that SCCA requires to run our equipment.

[gran racing]

Just curious...
Any idea what they pay for an 89 DB day?
How much do we pay for a single Sat only event?

[lateapex911]

We can't get a single Sat, so the rent if you could get it might be 27K or so....

[jjjanos]

They can't afford it Dave. The rent for an 89dB day is significantly lower than the 103dB days of which there are a limited quantity of that SCCA requires to run our equipment.

Huh?

I believe that Dave was suggesting subletting the facility for part/all of the time on a Friday to a group that wants to hold a PDX.

I'm fairly certain that there are procedures for such an arrangement, or at least there were, and, IIRC, the only requirement was that the other sanctioning body carry an insurance policy identical or greater than the SCCA policy. That would be how SCCA ProRacing (a separate sanctioning body) can run with Club Racing Events.

It seems that you have already determined the only workable solution - drop LRP dates - and are not looking for alternate solutions. None-the-less, the idea of a PDX is workable.

It all boils down to the elasticity of demand with respect to track time and entry fees and how much PDX revenue you can get. Losing track time on Friday will hurt entries, PDX-revenue lowers the fee/car needed to cover costs and that raises entries. Making it a one-day event sounds like it will increase entries.

It's all a stopgap measure any way. LRP hasn't realized it's no longer the only game in town and clubs soon will realize that they can get more track time, with less hassle and lower entry fees at the new facilities. What they lack in LRP's history, they compensate with better value. Doubtful LRP will be able to keep charging company store prices now that the chain stores have opened.

If they don't adjust their pricing because of the increase in supply, clubs will simply cut back because the demand won't be from their members.

[Andy Bettencourt]

JJJ,

I am not sure you understand. Many HPDE clubs run at LRP. They do so at an 89dB limit. The rent for those days is roughly half of what it is per day of an SCCA weekend. So while Dave's idea has merit, it is not financially feasable for these clubs to rent at that rate. We just had a one day event at LRP that lost NNJR money...so it's not so much one day that makes it work there.

LRP doesn't have to realize anything - YET. They have a product and we keep paying...that is the crux of this discussion. If the events made money and were fully sunscribed at $800 a day for a single, I wouldn't be complaining...to each his own. But the Regions beg for entries and support every year for fer they will lose money - again...I am just suggesting that they lower the amount of events there so they can increase supply and make the balance sheet actually balance.

[Dave Zaslow]

The problem with LRP is not NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, NJMS, or any other acronymic alphabet scramble one wants to throw at this. LRP is the most expensive place to put on a race because the track rental fee for unmuffled events is exceptionally large and all ancillary services come from the track as well. LRP has limited track hours and should be run as a restricted regional for the 10 top participating classes (and what will fit running with them in 6 run groups). I think the car counts would be the same or better.

Demand by racers is elastic. Supply for races is both elastic and inelastic in that only so many dates at tracks are available and the organizations puting on a race want to have those dates available in good times and bad. In a year such as this the demand is down, but the supply is actually up due to the base supply of "historical" dates being supplemented by Pro-IT and the recently gained ability to run IT cars in national classes.
It does not make sense from an economics view, but it may from a region's emotional view - "We've always done this event on this date and we'll do it forever".

Silly.

The regions see having the NARRC imprimateur as bringing more entries, so they designate most or all of their races as being part of the NARRC series. Then they still run other races that compete for the time/money/interest of their racing population.

For the any economy there needs to be just enough races to meet the racers demand AND leave the regions financially sound. Regions should join to co-host events so the risk is spread amongst them. Next year, or the year after, things will be different. Better or worse, who knows; but they will be different. If the tracks (all of them) take only a short term view, it will come back to them eventually.

The contracts re already signed for this year. Sanctions have been applied for. Flexibility has been lost. Suck it up and go forward being somewhat wiser. Look to give the most value to your customers and they will stick with you.

I will enter the LRP 6/20 race and pay for the too expensive motel room as well. I will go to WGI because it is a pleasure to race there. I will try to get to NJMP because I haven't been there. I won't go to NHMS because I have been there. I will make it to LRP for the NARRC-offs and will not let anyone else use my car (but I reserve my right to borrow Nat W's).

DZ

While NARRC is not really the problem we are having I'll stick my two cents in here.

In the NARRC series only about 30% of entrants (not entries) ran 4 or more NARRC races (2007 data).

NARRC needs to define a more limited number of races (no more than two) at each of the tracks that the drivers are interested in running. At the moment this is NHMS, NJMP (T and L), WGI, POC, and LRP. The NARRC drivers have previously expressed their opinion and wanted the diversity of tracks. I personaly would like to see no more than 10 races and 8 counted. No bonuses, no incentives.

[Greg Amy]

LRP hasn't realized it's no longer the only game in town and clubs soon will realize that they can get more track time, with less hassle and lower entry fees at the new facilities. What they lack in LRP's history, they compensate with better value. Doubtful LRP will be able to keep charging company store prices now that the chain stores have opened.
You're not a local, so it's understandable how/why you would underestimate the draw of this place for HPDE/track time events. This place holds a "panache" to non-racers that really cannot be overstated. The opportunity for some of these groups to be "able" to drive LRP is a terrific draw, to both "regular" guys in street cars and rich guys in Ferraris and Porches, and is the primary reason why Skip has been able to sell memberships to his LRP Club at a rate far exceeding my - and many others' - expections. As such, Skip can make a helluva lot of revenue, at significantly-reduced expense and risk, through these avenues.

But, "us racers", for the most part, don't have that much of a high regard for the track's history and reputation. To many of us, it's just another race track (though one much more convenient). And, there's a lot fewer racers than there are HPDE'rs. So, while the HPDE'rs will fill up four to five track registration events within hours, SCCA racers look upon three opportunities per year to race there as yet another choice to use discretionary time and money.

Further, are you aware that, by local ordinance, the track is only allowed a limited number of open-sound, a limited number of 103db, and a limited number of "competition" days (defined as wheel-to-wheel true racing, not testing, HPDE, or open passing)? So, by ordinance, he's only got "so" many days to sell to racing groups, and SCCA ain't the only one in town (e.g. Porsche Club, Ferrari Club, BMW club, NASA/PDA, etc). There's a lot more demand for competition time there than there are days available, so why can't he charge all he wants?

Finally, there ain't a whole lotta chain stores around; Watkins Glen is a good 5-6 hours from New York City, LRP is one; New Hampshire - no where near the draw as LRP - is over 4; Pocono - a place people stay away from in droves - is another 2. New Jersey is close to the City (2-3 hours?) and is good competition, but it ain't the saintly LRP.

Add to all of those factors the new LRP Club, which pulls many dates away from the market (so the members can drive around in their cars) and it's pretty obvious that this place will not be dropping its prices any time soon.

You're an economist, you understand what I'm saying. But, unless you spend time up here to really understand the psychological draw of this place, you can't understand why. No amount of formulas or calculations can explain it. Trust me when I tell you this place has a magnetic attraction to the gearhead that any track owner would kill for...

In the end, we (New England Region), with great foresight, chose to pursue a privately-owned club track as a solution. Once Palmer is open to our use, I suspect we'll quickly make LRP a one-event-a-year situation. Doing so will reinstate our "reverence" for that track (you don't know whatcha got until it's gone) and it will again draw a large number of racers, and make that one LRP a money-winner.

And Skip will sell those other two competition weekends to another group (or, convert them to HPDE or club weekends) without even blinking an eye.

GA

[Doc Bro]

NARRC needs to define a more limited number of races (no more than two) at each of the tracks that the drivers are interested in running. At the moment this is NHMS, NJMP (T and L), WGI, POC, and LRP. The NARRC drivers have previously expressed their opinion and wanted the diversity of tracks. I personaly would like to see no more than 10 races and 8 counted. No bonuses, no incentives.


Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!!

The NARRC series has gone from a series about drivers to a series about regions. Everyone wants the NARRC moniker in hopes that it will draw cars. The fear of shortening or limiting the NARRC series is the same as the fear of dropping dates. Making business decisions based on fear (emotion) and not facts is very dangerous.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner!!

The NARRC series has gone from a series about drivers to a series about regions. Everyone wants the NARRC moniker in hopes that it will draw cars. The fear of shortening or limiting the NARRC series is the same as the fear of dropping dates. Making business decisions based on fear (emotion) and not facts is very dangerous.

R

The NARRC and Pro IT should merge, run an 8 race season and pay out cash. THAT will draw if its workable.

[dickita15]

The NARRC and Pro IT should merge, run an 8 race season and pay out cash. THAT will draw if its workable.


I like the idea of Narrc being 10 races two at each track(although if that means 4 trips to Millville that would be pretty unattractive to those in New England where most of the drivers are) making the Narrc pay like PRO IT has a problem. The only reason there is money available for the PRO IT is that the regions are giving up half the entry money. As said before they only agreed to do that because it was extra money. If people are only entering the money paying race whether it is Narrc or Pro IT the business model fails. The entry fees would have to double.

[jjjanos]

JJJ,

I am not sure you understand. Many HPDE clubs run at LRP. They do so at an 89dB limit. The rent for those days is roughly half of what it is per day of an SCCA weekend. So while Dave's idea has merit, it is not financially feasable for these clubs to rent at that rate. We just had a one day event at LRP that lost NNJR money...so it's not so much one day that makes it work there.

I realize the HDPE clubs cannot afford loud rent. They don't rent at that rate. They rent at a lower rate from you. What I'm suggesting is that a fee from them plus the revenue raised from entries might cover the two-day rental. Hell, organize your own PDX and charge an arm and a leg. I don't know whether it can cover the cost of a two-day racing event, but dismissing it without crunching numbers or seeing what they would pay seems.... well, dismissive.


You're not a local, so it's understandable how/why you would underestimate the draw of this place for HPDE/track time events. This place holds a "panache" to non-racers that really cannot be overstated. The opportunity for some of these groups to be "able" to drive LRP is a terrific draw, to both "regular" guys in street cars and rich guys in Ferraris and Porches, and is the primary reason why Skip has been able to sell memberships to his LRP Club at a rate far exceeding my - and many others' - expections. As such, Skip can make a helluva lot of revenue, at significantly-reduced expense and risk, through these avenues.

I understand the captivation with the track. I also understand that Wonder Bread seems pretty darn good until you've had a good loaf. Mystique be damned. At some point, folks will vote with their wallets and even the rich boys will go away. He can charge what he wants. He can charge more than the market will accept. At some point, the glitterati clubs aren't going to pay it because the clubs won't be able to get enough cars.

Then again, never underestimate the stupidity of someone who buys a Ferrari.

[Doc Bro]

The NARRC and Pro IT should merge, run an 8 race season and pay out cash. THAT will draw if its workable.


So how does that affect all the non-Pro-IT classes? They effectively have no championship. Or are you proposing opening Pro-IT to all classes?

Shorten NARRC, do something to add prestige back to it. Shorten Pro-IT (or eliminate it) so that it doesn't pull from the NARRC, but supplements it. Pro-IT seemed to better fulfill its intent when it was 6 races.

.02

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

So how does that affect all the non-Pro-IT classes? They effectively have no championship. Or are you proposing opening Pro-IT to all classes?

Shorten NARRC, do something to add prestige back to it. Shorten Pro-IT (or eliminate it) so that it doesn't pull from the NARRC, but supplements it. Pro-IT seemed to better fulfill its intent when it was 6 races.

.02

R

What I mean is consolodate the efforts. Run an 8-10 event schedule and pay out like NARRC used to.

[Dave Zaslow]

If national classes have their own races at each of the tracks in NEDIV, should the LRP regionals be structured to have longer races for IT and SSM run groups? Should this become the Pro-IT series? Say the IT (2 groups) and SSM (1 group) races are twice the length of the others in a two day regional. Perhaps two 30 minute qualifying sessions and a 45 minute race.

The entry fee would have to reflect this but if we think people are going to pay $350 for two 20 minute sessions on one day, how much for 105 minutes on two days?

If there are 9 slots per day and these 3 groups take 6 of them, then 2/3 of the $75K for LRP = $50K At 30 entries per group $50k/90 = $550; at 35 entries $475; at 40 entries $420. Is this a value proposition or is the initial entry fee just too much no matter the track time? The remaining three slots, if filled with 30 entries each, would need to pay $275.

Any sense in this?

DZ

[Doc Bro]

What I mean is consolodate the efforts. Run an 8-10 event schedule and pay out like NARRC used to.


Gottcha, makes sense.

[anthony1k]

Since math makes it highly improbable those events such as LRP are ever going to breakeven, here is a radical idea: subsidize money losers with proceeds from all NARRC races.

Use recent history to get an accurate picture of profit/loss for all NARRC events.
Come up with a realistic 2010 schedule. 10 races, 8 count sounds reasonable.
Calculate the amount of money needed to keep all 10 events in the black.
Add a “sustainability” fee on top of entry fees for all events.
Use proceeds to offset loses as needed.

On their part, events that traditionally lose money need to come up with innovative ideas to contain the bleeding. For example, LRP should focus on value (more track time). Other tracks that starve for entries but have fewer time constrains maybe need to look at inviting other clubs (BWMCCA, PCA) to race. The series perhaps needs to look for ways to entice racers to race more often by offering multi-event discounts and other incentives.

Of course like everything else, it is easier said than done and the devil is in the details.

[ner88]

So, put a progam/series together, find the people to manage it, show me (PTB )who will particapate and how it will benifit our regions and we will be glad to run it.

[lateapex911]

Two thoughts. interrelated.

As I look at the actual car counts, I see certain groups are pretty poorly subscribed at regional.

Has there been discussion of eliminating those groups, running a restricted regional, and adding a regional only class (ITX) into that now empty group that would allow the popular cars to double dip?

An secondly, there currently exist double dipping possibilities for the SSM and SM cars into the IT group. Why hasn't this been encouraged with a discount on a second entry?

I know eliminating classes is tough medicine, and would bring complaints, but the Regions are losing money, and can'toperate as charities indefinately.

[anthony1k]

Has there been discussion of eliminating those groups....

The problem is too many races and too few racers. How would chasing away racers solve the problem? There are plenty of opportunities for Miatas to double and triple dip now. The focus should be on how to increase overall participation.

[zchris]

As I look at the actual car counts, I see certain groups are pretty poorly subscribed at regional.

Has there been discussion of eliminating those groups, running a restricted regional, and adding a regional only class (ITX) into that now empty group that would allow the popular cars to double dip?

An secondly, there currently exist double dipping possibilities for the SSM and SM cars into the IT group. Why hasn't this been encouraged with a discount on a second entry?

I know eliminating classes is tough medicine, and would bring complaints, but the Regions are losing money, and can'toperate as charities indefinately.
__________________
Ok Jake, this is an idea Andy B has been pushing also. Lets run with it and apply this to a recent NE race that had 6 ITA cars and 30+ SM's. Now in that race I would say that to make it fair, SM should have a 30+ lap race with similar amounts of P and Q. So I guess that would leave ITA with just a 6 lap race with 6 minute P and Q. Does this sound fair. After all why waste track time on just 6 cars. DUMB. You get the point I assume.

[dickita15]

Historically one of the ways to deal with a down economy and the resulting lower car counts is to combine groups as aggressively as possible so that you can increase track time. This provides an increase in value that helps combat the lower car counts. When you look at the race groups we have been using in the narrc area races the tough ones are the two open wheel groups. You need really small count before you can make them one group. FE’s and FV just do not belong together.
One of my more off the wall ideas was to combine closed wheel groups to get back up to 25 cars or so and then run a race schedule that gives the closed wheel groups 3 session on track a day and the two small open wheel groups two sessions a day. It seems fair to me that the groups with lots of cars get more time after all it is the fact that they are having to deal with more cars on track that is creating the extra time.

[ner88]

OK, hear is how we build a series,
1) 5 events, one at each track(NHMS, NJMP, Pocono, Glen and runoff at LRP), one event a month
2) Only 5 race groups, top five based on prior years particapation
3) It's a traveling event same format at each track
Sat. AM practice/qual.
Sat.PM Qual.race
Sun. AM Qual. race(best time from Sat. race)
Sun. PM Main Race (finishing position from AM race)
4) No throw away race but if you pay entry fee you can still receive points, same for DNF
5) LRP will be a shared event
Gold, Silver and Bronze Medals per event, no money

Lots of track time, have schedule out early so eveyone can plan ahead!

If other race groups want to play, they will need to get their numbers up!

[lateapex911]

As I look at the actual car counts, I see certain groups are pretty poorly subscribed at regional.

Has there been discussion of eliminating those groups, running a restricted regional, and adding a regional only class (ITX) into that now empty group that would allow the popular cars to double dip?

An secondly, there currently exist double dipping possibilities for the SSM and SM cars into the IT group. Why hasn't this been encouraged with a discount on a second entry?

I know eliminating classes is tough medicine, and would bring complaints, but the Regions are losing money, and can'toperate as charities indefinately.
__________________
Ok Jake, this is an idea Andy B has been pushing also. Lets run with it and apply this to a recent NE race that had 6 ITA cars and 30+ SM's. Now in that race I would say that to make it fair, SM should have a 30+ lap race with similar amounts of P and Q. So I guess that would leave ITA with just a 6 lap race with 6 minute P and Q. Does this sound fair. After all why waste track time on just 6 cars. DUMB. You get the point I assume.

It's not about class sizes, it's about group sizes. When you have 6 classes in a group, yet there are 5 or 7 cars circling around, it's not an efficient use of track time. The idea would be to give up those 7 entries, and use the group as an opportunity for cars to double dip. Other regions do this to great effect. It's grown to be that the Double Dip group is as large as any.

I suggest it, as I said, as a "restricted Regional". If it works, you get to keep the dates which nobody seems to want to let go of, AND keep the region solvent. It removes a race date for certain classes (which is currently being advocated now with the suggestion of dropping entire race dates) yet could keep us in the black.

[Andy Bettencourt]

__________________
Ok Jake, this is an idea Andy B has been pushing also. Lets run with it and apply this to a recent NE race that had 6 ITA cars and 30+ SM's. Now in that race I would say that to make it fair, SM should have a 30+ lap race with similar amounts of P and Q. So I guess that would leave ITA with just a 6 lap race with 6 minute P and Q. Does this sound fair. After all why waste track time on just 6 cars. DUMB. You get the point I assume.

WHAT? I am not sure restricted regionals has come up for a year or two. The only way it would work is if the resultant schedule provided more VALUE to the classes that were there and there were more ENTRANTS.

And Chris, no recent race had 6 ITA cars - unless you are talking about the Pro IT inside of a National at NHMS - which is not relevant. Besides, what you are saying is either disingenous or short-sited. It's not about class size, it's about RUN GROUP size. Nobody cares if a run group is made up of 25 1-car classes or 1 25-car class. But when a 6-8 car run group takes the green, that IS hard to swallow - especially when they complain that they can't be combined with any other group. This April, IIRC, the race chair combined all the open wheelers into one group, extended the race so that the slower groups got their laps and extended everyone elses day.

Again, our reginal execs put on great races at each of our venues. The issue is that people are voting with their entries (or lack therof) for LRP. WGI, NJMP, NHMS - they all stand on their own and seemingly do well...it's LRP that is always the issue. We all know why. I submit that we have too many events their for the market of drivers. Simple.

[zchris]

If thats the case Andy, mix the 2 or 3 GT cars in with the ITA cars. I personally do not mind driving with the moving chicanes. Hell, some GT1 cars move as slow as you guys. Then we all get more track time. I guess what I am saying is inclusion should be cosidered before you throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If thats the case Andy, mix the 2 or 3 GT cars in with the ITA cars. I personally do not mind driving with the moving chicanes. Hell, some GT1 cars move as slow as you guys. Then we all get more track time. I guess what I am saying is inclusion should be cosidered before you throw the baby out with the bath water.

I have no issues with that Chris if it made sense for the event. Except Big Bore closed wheel is never an issue in terms of run group size. It's the open wheel guys that historically have less than desirable group sizes at regionals - and the issue is compunded by the lack of willingness to combine the 'big bore' and 'small bore' open wheelers. I understand the issues, but we can all understand why it hurts 'event value'.

I can't stress this enough - increasing VALUE in non-traditional ways is really only an LRP issue. Yes we want as much value as we can get at any track - but we either have to dump some of these events or try something new while we keep them...no?

I like inclusion. If I were an open wheel run-group guy (I have dreams of a Stohr/DSR someday), I would be trying to increase the participation within my run group! Let's just drop an LRP event and see what happens to car counts at the remaining 2.

[lawtonglenn]

...
3) It's a traveling event same format at each track
Sat. AM practice/qual.
Sat.PM Qual.race
Sun. AM Qual. race(best time from Sat. race)
Sun. PM Main Race (finishing position from AM race)...



Racing for points is nice, but I just love racing....so this proposed
format with 3 races (two Q race and one points race) or the
NER triple format (one Q race and two points races) are equally
attractive to me....I truly believe more races/event is the
most valuable to me.

Last year's NJMPL 5 race season ender, with three regionals
and two PROITs, in one weekend, was heaven...pure heaven!


.

[StephenB]

OK, hear is how we build a series,
1) 5 events, one at each track(NHMS, NJMP, Pocono, Glen and runoff at LRP), one event a month
2) Only 5 race groups, top five based on prior years particapation
3) It's a traveling event same format at each track
Sat. AM practice/qual.
Sat.PM Qual.race
Sun. AM Qual. race(best time from Sat. race)
Sun. PM Main Race (finishing position from AM race)
4) No throw away race but if you pay entry fee you can still receive points, same for DNF
5) LRP will be a shared event
Gold, Silver and Bronze Medals per event, no money

Lots of track time, have schedule out early so eveyone can plan ahead!

If other race groups want to play, they will need to get their numbers up!

This is a great idea that would make me participate in this series in a heartbeat! :happy204: almost!

1.) Yes I agree
2.) I would rather see all race groups be involved, however higher subscribed groups get to go first then the next and so on to the lowest subscribed going last. this will benifit the bigger groups because they will get to run in case of a major incident, and they get to leave early if they want to!
3.) I completly LOVE this format! PERFECT and the only thing I would add is that TIMED races would be better use of the track than laps. We (Regions) don't pay rental fees for laps we pay for the time we are on it! USE THE ENTIRE DAY... currently events over and over again end Early when we paid to use the track until the end of the day on Sunday! (Or saturday for the purpose of this thread)
4.)Points system doesn't matter to me as much as the #of weekends and I agree 5 or so weekends is perfect! 1 per month! no drops
5.) something like a $10 fee per event per entrant that goes towards the end of year NARRC championship to help pay rental costs?

I would also say that medals are a great prize... and only have them for the series race sunday afternoon. Maybe also allow drivers to purchase a medalion holder that would have a plaque for the current year competition or something along these lines so that if you do get a medal you can display it. maybe add in a picture holder that you can slide a picture of your car into :)

Stephen

[Dave Zaslow]

Jerry,

I like the concept.

Doesn't LRP have some funny restrictions on Friday racing? Is this not why there were two qualifying sessions for the two Saturday races when a 'double' was tried? Would a qualifying race get around this?

I have no objection to a qualifying race. The choice would be to grid cars by lap times or by finishing position from the qualifier.

I personally would rather have one 30 minute timed race than two 15 minute races. It also saves the minutes getting groups off track and getting the next one out.

DZ