99 miata or 2nd gen RX7? best ITS solution...

[gpeluso]

I have been running SpecMiata the last 2 years but miss the mix of cars..... I have an extra 99 w/hardtop but can not figuire out how it can be competitive in ITS when I see some of the BMW's (and being a former E36 owner). Where I live RX7's are foreign to all shops.... I have done research and found how ISC has a fast miata but they also have unbelievavle drivers..... My real question is what seems more realistic Miata or 2nd Gen? $$$, reliablity are important too.....

To me a miata would need to make 165 whp to have a chance......I have a handle on the suspension that would work for a miata......or do I buy a good used 2nd gen RX7( would never try and build with zero knowledge). I saw this weekend a BMW just destroy RX7's but it has to be the quaility of the builds...I know the BMW I am speeking of makes TOP power...I know nothing about the RX7's(three of them) that ran against the BMW. I think if the MIATA worked better we would see more in ITS..... Maybe I just need this extra 1999 w/ hardtop out of my garage so I will just quit trying to figuire it out..... Any thoughts???

Greg

[tnord]

about 6mos ago, i would've said go with the miata. i was shopping for one myself, but ended up with a 96 for ITA instead.

but recently (in part due to a hugely misleading article in sportscar) there has been a mob gathering for a witch hunt against the miata in ITA. this stems from fear of the many years of pointed development in both SM car and driver that has produced a very, very quick package. often times the SM guys outrun the ITA guys, despite being down 10-15hp, and having inferior tires and suspensions.

with the shortcomings of the SM ruleset there is more and more people making the switch to IT, bringing their car prep and driver ability with them. consequently, former SM now ITA competitors are starting to see some good results (yet nothing like the Honda crowd has seen for as long as i can remember) and it's unjustifiably raising eyebrows. to paraphrase one of my fellow ITA competitors "it makes me skeptical when these miatas show up out of nowhere and start kicking butt."

the point is i don't see any reason why this couldn't happen to the ITS miata. get a few good finishes, and the mob will switch their attention to you, using any combination of rumor, lie, speculation, ignorance, and fear to justify an adjustment to the ITAC.

[dspillrat]

The ISC/Vansteenburg ITS cars are making very good power and handle on rails..... My sunbelt 240z engine could not pull Kips car at ARRC in 2007.....and mine was around 188 flywheel HP ...... well driven they are contenders.... Charbonneau is kicking ass now in their ITS cars.... But looking at his 2008 ITA versus 2009 ITS times, he was over a second slower in the S car this year at Roebling Road in april. Slow track??

[racingralph]

if we had a 99 miata , we would be racing it in its... we are racing a rx-7 in the southeast. i think the miatas will be a great car for the class. you use the same tire as we do , are are bout 300lbs lighter. you've already got the car... a no brainer !! ralph mcconnell

[quadzjr]

The ISC/Vansteenburg ITS cars are making very good power and handle on rails..... My sunbelt 240z engine could not pull Kips car at ARRC in 2007.....and mine was around 188 flywheel HP ...... well driven they are contenders.... Charbonneau is kicking ass now in their ITS cars.... But looking at his 2008 ITA versus 2009 ITS times, he was over a second slower in the S car this year at Roebling Road in april. Slow track??

That whole weekend was slow. compare his "s" time to Mike and Kips A times.. with the exception of the ITB race most times were a good bit off lap records.

As for the "s" cars talk to mike @ ISC. They are always battling up front there "s" cars and can mix it up withthe best of BMW's and RX-7's.

[Knestis]

Travis does a good job of paying attention to the goings-on in IT but I'm afraid that he's laboring under the misconception that the ITAC makes its recommendations to the CRB for car specs based on what the mobs want.

Your ITAC members have been busting their butts (I just listen in and drink Appletinis) to define a process that is repeatable and as diddle-proof as something like this can be. I of course don't pretend to speak for the whole committee but it is pretty safe to say that we do NOT make decisions based on "a few good finishes."

K

[Ron Earp]

I'm with Ralph and David. Having watched some ITS Miatas that were well-prepped I know you can be winning in one if you hold up the driving end of things.

[Mazmarc63]

I have raced an ITS Rx-7 for 13 years. Go with the Miata. I am afraid the life cycle of the Rx-7 is reaching the light at the end of the tunnel. Parts are becoming more difficult to get and just as he did with the Rx-7's, Mike is building the Miata into the next ITS weapon. Admittedly, Andrew threw a con rod through the block in the Miata three weeks ago at Daytona. Something you wont see happening in an Rx-7:D.

Like Ron said, still gotta drive it though.

[tnord]

Travis does a good job of paying attention to the goings-on in IT but I'm afraid that he's laboring under the misconception that the ITAC makes its recommendations to the CRB for car specs based on what the mobs want.

Your ITAC members have been busting their butts (I just listen in and drink Appletinis) to define a process that is repeatable and as diddle-proof as something like this can be. I of course don't pretend to speak for the whole committee but it is pretty safe to say that we do NOT make decisions based on "a few good finishes."

K

and i think you guys are laboring under the misconception that people don't submit "data" (term used as sarcastically as possible) with the underlying motivation being results.

from what i can see, you guys are willing to take this "data" and conjecture as fact, and act on "what you think you know." i agree that you guys have done an excellent job of removing, and working towards removing as much "diddle-ability" from the process as possible.

but there's still that pesky power multiplier and using "what you think you know."

[Knestis]

Oh, trust me Travis - we TOTALLY understand the motivations behind any information provided to us. It's usually not too tough to suss out what someone wants, based on what they provide. :)

This is an opportune moment to share a few hints with anyone who cares about this issue...

** Car A beats Car B is not evidence that A needs to be slowed down or B needs a break. Travis is right on that you might reasonably use that as the basis to go looking for evidence, or that this will likely be the motivation behind requests that specifications be reviewed. It is not however "evidence."

** Hypothetical power estimates - like when street car guys figure out how much power they have by adding up the advertised gains from the "mods" - are weak evidence at best.

** It's perfectly reasonable to share your support - or lack thereof - for any potential rule change. You are empowered to say, "I understand that the Borgward is being considered for classification in ITC and am vehemently opposed to that idea!!! I raced Borgwards in the Olde Country so I KNOW that they will ruin the category." But please remember that we're trying to make the IT weight specification process as objective as possible. It might be that NOBODY wants [whatever race weight] but we will still recommend it to the Board if it's what we get out of our collection of practices and processes.

** If you have input that you want considered, it is best if it is (a) in a web-enabled form we can archive, (b) attributable to an actual live human being, and (c) not super secret. Something you heard from someone, have no physical documentation of, and can't tell who told you isn't going to be particularly compelling.

The ITAC (I will take the risk of speaking for them on this) takes the task of separating conjecture and opinion from fact very seriously, and is pretty smart on the issue. VERY importantly, the committee membership also represents a wide range of priorities and experiences. That slows us down at times but I think you all can be pretty confident that we're not a group of Yes Men.

K

[tnord]

i hear your words, but i'm still withholding judgement until i witness the actions (or lack thereof).

[JeffYoung]

Kirk speaks for me on the above -- that is 100% spot on.

Back to the original issue, I still (and I may be old fashioned) think it is a toss up between an ITS RX7 or Miata:

1. RX7: can buy a top shelf, race winning, ARRC winning even car for fairly cheap, more top end, good brakes, fun to drive. All ITS issues sorted out, a "formula" for making the car go fast. Downside is as Marc indicates long in the tooth, starting to get hard to get parts.

2. Miata: Well, it's a Miata. Well balanced. Good power (Greg, the word is the 165 you mention is obtainable), great handling and brakes. can have some trouble at up and down power tracks (VIR/Road Atlanta). Probably nearly impossible to be at momentum tracks. Still early on the development curve which is good and bad. Probably more to be had in the car, but it may take $$$ and time to get there.

[Wreckerboy]

Well, as a Borgward owner I'm now thoroughly confused and pissed off....

[Tristan Smith]

I just listen in and drink Appletinis
K

Appletinis???!!!! oh the shame...........:D

[tnord]

Well, as a Borgward owner I'm now thoroughly confused and pissed off....

if by borgward you mean, miata....you should be.

letters are being written to the ITAC requesting the car be "re-run" through the process (read; throw weight at it) using nothing but conjecture, misrepresentation, and speculation as "evidence." and from what i can tell, despite kirk's words here, the ITAC is buying into it.

[JeffYoung]

Travis, I'm not going to get into any details other than to say I like you, but you are wrong.

We have to consider the letter, and the evidence, and we are -- just like we would with any other car.

[tnord]

Travis, I'm not going to get into any details other than to say I like you, but you are wrong.

We have to consider the letter, and the evidence, and we are -- just like we would with any other car.

it's nothing personal from my side either jeff.......but lets see this "evidence."

[Knestis]

if by borgward you mean, miata....you should be.

letters are being written to the ITAC requesting the car be "re-run" through the process (read; throw weight at it) using nothing but conjecture, misrepresentation, and speculation as "evidence." and from what i can tell, despite kirk's words here, the ITAC is buying into it.

The request is "review the Miata weight." That's ALL we are "buying into," Travis. And the fact that it's being reviewed is absolutely no indication of the credence placed on any particular evidence provided. Pro or con.

Let's be clear: At this time, we will review a weight specification of a listed IT car for absolutely no reason whatsoever, beyond that you've asked. The decision to review is automatic: Any and all evidence has to stand on its own.

K

[lateapex911]

if by borgward you mean, miata....you should be.

letters are being written to the ITAC requesting the car be "re-run" through the process (read; throw weight at it) using nothing but conjecture, misrepresentation, and speculation as "evidence." and from what i can tell, despite kirk's words here, the ITAC is buying into it.

Travis...am I gonna have to come out and slap you around a bit? ;) I hope not, it's long way. Are you ON the ITAC?? Then how can you KNOW what goes on on our con calls or on our board??

Just because we say "All evidence is considered" doesn't mean it all gets weight.

Also, how do you know about the letters we are getting that are
conjecture, misrepresentation and speculation!?? Have you hacked the system?

The Miata (ITA) is getting looked at, like dozens of cars before it. There are three possible outcomes. It gets lighter, gets heavier, or stays the same...but the reasons behind any of those outcomes aren't clear to anyone yet. Including you!

In answer (sorry for the sidebar...had to be done), to the original question.
I'd go with the Miata.
A- RX-7 is nearing the end of it's prime, partswise, etc.
B-Mazda is a GREAT company to race with.
C- the thing reads your mind...you think, it goes there.
D- My calculations show the power can be had.
E-It will win with a good driver with good racecraft. Gotta be smart though..it's not an easy peasy pass 'em on the straight then block 'em in the corners car.

That said, there are other options in ITS, some as yet unexplored, that show significant promise.

[quadzjr]

I have no plan to run in ITA nor do I own a miata.. however it seems a bit biased that the person that is so concerned that the miata is getting reviewed seems to be a miata racer/building one(As you would expect since it affects you.) However as it has been said by Kirk and Jake the car is under review process. So it's weight can go up, down, or stay the same. Why do you automatically assume that their review will result with the miata gaining weight? The only reason why I would make this assumption is if I did have a advantage and was afraid of losing it. If the car did not have an advantage you could make the assumption that car would loose weight. Which I hope is the case after a year so for the ITB MR2 having a similiar weight to a mustang! :) This isn't the first time a popular car has been reviewed and it won't be the last. just my 2cents.

-Side note: I am not against the miata in anyway. I personally was looking to build a 96-97 ITA car myself.. I just couldn't afford to do so. So I picked a chassis that has atleast one spares package (My street car :))

[tnord]

Why do you automatically assume that their review will result with the miata gaining weight? The only reason why I would make this assumption is if I did have a advantage and was afraid of losing it. If the car did not have an advantage you could make the assumption that car would loose weight.

....busy at work right now....but suffice it to say that i've had conversations beyond this thread with jake and kirk. i'd also like to reiterate that this is absolutely nothing personal, i think they're both great members of the ITAC, this miata thing is just a little trickier than usual.

[ulfelder]

Naturally, we've been pondering this at Flatout. I've run an ITS RX-7 for 8 years, but I was planning to build an ITS Miata for this season until one-third of all the money in the universe vanished late last year :o.

(My new plan is so top secret I have an arsenic pill under my tongue right now, as I've been instructed to commit suicide rather than divulge it. Mwahahahaha.)

Second-gen RX-7s are today where 240Zs were when I began racing: they're all-time-great cars, people know how to make 'em go fast, and the good ones can win races - but they're old, with all the challenges that entails.

Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

[Ron Earp]

and the good ones can win races - but they're old, with all the challenges that entails.


Dang, I wonder where that leaves us Z guys these days? :o

[ulfelder]

Dang, I wonder where that leaves us Z guys these days? :o

Double-dipping in ITS and Vintage! :D

Steve

[JeffYoung]

Actually it leaves you adjusting your drum brakes and putting Marvel Mystery oil in your carburetors with an eye dropper.

[dspillrat]

Actually it leaves you adjusting your drum brakes and putting Marvel Mystery oil in your carburetors with an eye dropper.

Sensors can be added now? Mootec??..., Thinking of adding a fuel injection sensors to the intake runners...to hell with the mystery oil!!!

David

[quadzjr]

and putting Marvel Mystery oil in your carburetors with an eye dropper.


I thought that was more of a british thing? hahah:happy204: