Looking for in-car VIR group 6 incident

[chewy8000]

Anyone have in-car from the start incident of group 6 yesterday at VIR? Trying to see how many times my car got hit and what happened.

[ITA_honda]

Oh no.....dont tell me that beautiful car got damaged!!!!:(

[chewy8000]

Nevermind Ginsberg just sent this to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHbDRb4H2Gs

[shwah]

Wow. Looks like the accordian giveth, and the accordian taketh away. Bummer deal Tristan, and all others involved.

On a lighter note, how was the powerplant working out this time?

[gran racing]

Is that Greg's in-car and you're the vehicle that went flying by?

[chewy8000]

No it's the in-car from the #50 RX7. Yes I'm the missile in the grass.

[gran racing]

Did you hit the guard rail which caused the other stuff?

[Gregg]

Is that Greg's in-car and you're the vehicle that went flying by?
Nope...I would have wrecked long before that point. :blink: Tristan did have a hell of a jump until...well...you know.

I was there dutifully playing the role of crew for Jeff Janoska's MARRS ITB CRX this weekend and didn't race, who ran very good races both days and came away with 3rd-place MARRS points on Saturday and 2nd-place points on Sunday.

[xr4racer]

It is stupid moves like this that tear up many good cars. I hope the stewards had something to say.

matt miller

[chewy8000]

I agree it was a stupid move and won't be repeated.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Wow.

[Sandro]

On a lighter note, how was the powerplant working out this time?

from the video it looked like it was running really well ! !

how bad is the car? you have to have the worst like of anyone I know racing a VW

[quadzjr]

how in the heck did you get such a jump?

[Marcus Miller]

how in the heck did you get such a jump?

Nitrous, of course :shrug:

[iambhooper]

Tristan,

I have a couple of questions. First, weren't you 5 spots in front of me on the grid? Which brings me to WTF were you thinking? Did you forget about the kink?

Watching this $#!& happen from P24, all I could think was "dear god.... i've found myself in the middle of a European Touring car race!"

The race cannot be won on the first lap, but it sure can be lost!

hoop

[Ron Earp]

How did the car coming by on the inside have so much speed on the rest of the field only a second or two after the green?????????

[gran racing]

The beginning grass part I may have done but it needed to get settled down way before you did. Ballsey move; glad no one got hurt and sounds like you learned from it. Gesh, especially with such a nice new car. More importantly other peoples' cars.

[RSTPerformance]

The beginning grass part I may have done but it needed to get settled down way before you did. Ballsey move; glad no one got hurt and sounds like you learned from it. Gesh, especially with such a nice new car. More importantly other peoples' cars.

Holly $#!++

Dave- Your right, the grass was ok in some minds, but after that you should have settled down long before it becomes a video game... your playing with a lot more than just your car and your life. I hope you learned your lesson and the video maybe taught others a lesson also.

Two questions:

1) How did you get such a jump? you had to jump the start right?

2) What penalties did the stewards give you after the protests came pourig in?

Raymond

[shwah]

I just assumed the jump was the result of the pack expanding and contracting (like an acordian) as it formed up, and he ended up wide open trying to keep/catch up when the green flew. Not that uncommon to happen in a large field. Though I wish starters would take a harder line on this and insist on proper formations in more than the first few rows with our multi class groups.

[chewy8000]

The timing of the jump...I assure you... was plain dumb luck. I did it successfully on the outside the day before. I noticed that in most of the races that I watched they would throw the green when the field was 1/2 way down the wall so I just backed off and hammered it in 3rd after hog pen. Right as I got up on the cars in front of me the green went and I was already into 4th. Got the timing right at the start but I see how dangerous it was now compared to having patience and using race craft. Glad that everyone is okay and I did learn my lesson...

[Knestis]

It didn't work out very well at all in this case but it's NOT safe to assume that Tristan "jumped the start."

I'll confess to being sensitive to this issue after the snarky comments and back-channel steward-lobbying I got to deal with at the IT festival. However, Vaughn's video compilation shows me going by at the green, gaining on the front rows but having clearly NOT passed anyone prior to the wave of the flag. My point (Raymond) is that more velocity going into T1 isn't evidence of a jump, as the GCR defines it. Sort of like an increasing distance between cars coming out of a corner is NOT evidence that the guy ahead has more power. It's physics, about the distinctions among distance, velocity, and acceleration, with respect to time.

Now, you can ignore everything I've said because my run went completely sucktastical before T1, too. But for consideration...

K

[lateapex911]

I made my comments over on RRAX when I first saw this, but the "jump or not a jump" doesn't concern me in the slightest.

I've read Tristians comments, and I think they are a step in the right direction. I would hope that he found every car damaged in that fiasco and apologized profusely. That was a serious case of greed and bad judgment, and no consideration for others at the time. I hope it was a few seconds brain fart.

One comment I read though, and perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but the bit about surging up and back and timing the green bothers me. If you are the last car in line, fine. Otherwise, (I'm assuming this wasn't a last car in line situation) thats rather selfish behavior, and screws up all the rows behind you. Que up, hold the position and the pattern, and go on the green. Really, you have to be fair to others.

Yea, if there wasn't a good beating in the stewards office, or any protests, I'd consider myself veeery lucky.

[JLawton]

I think you guys can lay off him now. He has already said it was a bad move and wouldn't happen again. We've all done moves like this and most of the time get away with it.

I think we bashed him enough, let's move on......






One comment I read though, and perhaps I'm assuming incorrectly, but the bit about surging up and back and timing the green bothers me. If you are the last car in line, fine. Otherwise, (I'm assuming this wasn't a last car in line situation) thats rather selfish behavior, and screws up all the rows behind you. Que up, hold the position and the pattern, and go on the green. Really, you have to be fair to others.
.

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool: but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.


On edit: "You have to be fair to the others"???? Really?? I don't know about you but I will do everything I can to get an advantage as long as I don't think I'll get black flagged. If you have Crazy Joe behind you, and you know he's got a power advantage, you bet your ass I will do what I can to keep him back there........ (it never works, but I keep trying anyways!!)

[iambhooper]

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool: but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.

Well said. I can tell you from the 12 row, I was back n forth between 2nd and 3rd, while on the brakes, clutch and throttle... while trying to move just enough to get a glimpse of the starter stand.

That being said... Tristan, didin't you pass me in the dirt several other times over the weekend? I seem to remember your car coming past at 4/5 and at 7 with a plume of red mist. You've got a quick car, one that might be a class leader... but that means nothing if you keep wanting to bonzai everything. If you have the move, make the pass. Don't just stick the car in there and think that a hole will be there... you've seen the results.

Like Jay said, I'm sure (hope!) you learned from this. I'm sorry that others cars were damaged, but I was happy as snott to make it through without any harm to my car. I guess it did pay off to be back in the middle of the pack!

hoop

[chewy8000]

I think you guys can lay off him now. He has already said it was a bad move and wouldn't happen again. We've all done moves like this and most of the time get away with it.

I think we bashed him enough, let's move on......

Thanks Jeff. I understand the $%^# storm that was created and myself and others are done for the season. I feel as bad as one could for a split second lack of judgement like that. Really sucks...

[gran racing]

going by at the green, gaining on the front rows but having clearly NOT passed anyone prior to the wave of the flag.

But it's not just about if cars are passed prior to the waive of the green flag. I'm not implying that you (or Tristan) laid back more than acceptable on purpose, but I think that's more what Jake was talking about. For IT Fest, it would have been more interesting to see video from cars behind you.

[shwah]

It was amazing how a good start back in the pack can impact that first turn. At IT Fest I got a love tap going into 1 in the 2nd row as a result of the activity triggered by Kirk's very good start. Didn't have any idea what took place for quite a while, but I thought there was a video out there somewhere from further back in the pack that just showed a very competitive start and turn 1.

[924Guy]

Very interesting to hear that, Kirk! I'll have to go back and watch that vid again! I've sent the comment through to my wife, who took all the video.

It's both amusing and interesting/timely discussion; we were just having the conversation last night about how you can potentially get a killer (not jumped) start from the back, what the GCR says, and then what the heck do you do with all that speed when you're at a very narrow track like VIR or Waterford, with just 2 lanes of asphalt... She's a Novice this year, having just gone through school 2 weeks ago... so we pretty much came to the conclusion that "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!"

[gran racing]

Nuttin' but love Chris. :) I was soooo glad it didn't impact you. Finally replaced my bumper - damn those must be some long wheel studs. lol

[erlrich]

Ok, after reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do most of you guys think there are times when it's ok to go off track intentionally? I'm not talking about avoiding contact, or other emergency situations, but driving off into the dirt to pass someone, or to maintain your position? Is that really ok? If so I need to adjust my way of thinking.

[Knestis]

>> "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!!"

Good advice pretty much any time one is on the track.

At the start, the onus is ALWAYS on the driver who gets a good run to have a way to resolve it.

In my case, there was pavement to work with, but it became quickly occupied by sideways car. I had to choose the best of three bad options (try to squeak past Dave's bumper, which I actually snagged in the process; vs. broadside him having slowed however much I could or turning left into the wall). I put myself in that situation with the run at the green, I had to deal with it, and I bear responsiblity regardless of what goes wrong or what led to the mess.

The real lesson though (I think) is that this is the case IRRESPECTIVE of details re: who got how good of a start. It's a lot easier to work out the details if all of the cars in a given space are getting there at about the same speed but that's pretty much never going to be the case on the start.

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

EDIT - A thousand years ago in the ITC Alliance days, I got a whopper of a run from DFL in a big pack at Portland. In THAT case, in all probablity, I DID jump the start because all I had to go by was the increase in noise from the other side of the slough (no radio, couldn't see the flag). I was driver's right (inside of the last turn onto the straight) but - BUMMER - had to come to a COMPLETE STOP to get back in line at the end: They people in front of me were nose-to-tail and running right along the end of the then-brand-new "pro pits" wall on the infield side of the straight, I couldn't get in, and the end of the pits was covered by a (slightly) angled Jersey barrier. I'm lucky that I was driving a slow car.

[erlrich]

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

I agree 100%. I assume all regions do this, but I know in the DC region the corner workers start calling in the condition of the field several turns before start (typically T8 at Summit). The starter knows what the field looks like long before they come into sight. As best I can tell, our starters are pretty good about getting the flag out as early as possible; I think they usually have it waving by the time the lead cars hit pit out.

[jjjanos]

>> I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.

It's a subtle distinction but I'd propose that their real responsibility is to get the race underway safely, rather than forcing the field to look pretty. And starters who get preoccupied with the "Hah hah!" games, worrying more about surprising us with the flag than about getting us underway, are frankly not paying attention to the most important aspect of their job.

I'd way prefer an early, messy start to a late start with the front rows tightly bunched up.

K

You can throw a late green if everybody can see the stand - say at a Roval where the stand is miles above the pavement. At most places we run, the guys in the back will never see the flag and are either guessing or keying on the cars at front. A late start will be fine, if the nuts holding the wheels aren't playing games, but that's not the case usually.

You'll get someone in row 4 leave a gap and get on the throttle early in an attempt to get a jump, everyone behind gets on the throttle, even if only to maintain their spacing on him. Gapper needs to roll off the throttle, and everybody behind accordians...

I think part of the problem for this particular race was that few, if any, of the groups maintained pace car speed when it dove for the track. Probably a consequence of everyone knowing that there was no way there would be a waveoff. It takes so long to do another pace lap that I imagine you could have cars barrel-rolling prior to the green and still get a green.

[JLawton]

Ok, after reading some of the comments here I have to ask: do most of you guys think there are times when it's ok to go off track intentionally? I'm not talking about avoiding contact, or other emergency situations, but driving off into the dirt to pass someone, or to maintain your position? Is that really ok? If so I need to adjust my way of thinking.



Yes*




*IF you're talking two wheels. Like any other situation you better be damn sure you're making the right decision though. Four?? Not a good idea (in my opinion)



Hell, I saw Fangio do all four in the grass to make a pass in a Prototype. If he can do it, I certainly can do!!!!

Kidding, KIDDING!!!




.

[lateapex911]

Jake, I realize you've always been lucky enough to never have started at the back of the pack, :cool: HAR har har. yea, my rocketship RX-7, you know, the one that has 44 hp less than your car!) always starts up front. Jeff, I've never started higher than the second row.

.....but you get that rubber band effect. The further back, the harder it is for everyone to keep a steady pace. You've got guys down shifting, guys realizing they're too close to the car in front, or starting to lag. This starts from the second row back, but gets magnified the further back you go. It's not done on purpose.

I know, but the poster said he knew when the green would be thrown, and laid back, then surged ...the resulting run was huge, so we know it wasn't a "layback a foot, then surge" deal. We all do that.



On edit: "You have to be fair to the others"???? Really?? I don't know about you but I will do everything I can to get an advantage as long as I don't think I'll get black flagged. If you have Crazy Joe behind you, and you know he's got a power advantage, you bet your ass I will do what I can to keep him back there........ (it never works, but I keep trying anyways!!)

I've been behind guys who surge up and back twenty feet, It's ridiculous. They're in the second or third row, by the time that snakes back even 2 or 3 rows of the 20, it's insane! If anyone needs help on the start, it's me. 105 ft lbs of torque, and no radio...but you have to try to be fair to those around you.

Best place EVAr for the huge run start: Pocono. LOTS of room. (like 10 wide room) I started 32nd of 32 there once, hung way back, timed it perfectly, and was in 12th by the first turn, with enough momentum to take me to 4th by turn 2. (Luckily, my lap times were good enough to run with the leaders, I was just starting from the back for other reasons)

[happyjap]

Hoop,

Just found another vid on utube - looks like you were in the middle of that one. You got lucky, eh?

Rex

[BUMPnGO]

Hole shot gone bad.:eclipsee_steering:

[quadzjr]

Hoop,

Just found another vid on utube - looks like you were in the middle of that one. You got lucky, eh?

Rex

link?

[dickita15]

I might be in the minority on this but I'd suggest that starters do NOT do us any favors by waiting to see if things are formed up and tight before throwing the flag - particularly with a big field. It's a bit of a generalization but, the later the green, the more opportunity the snake has to get coiled up and ready to strike.



I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

[JoshS]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Out here when we have 50-60 car fields, we often find that unless the front row goes very slow and the green comes late, the back of the back hasn't even caught up and formed up by the time the green comes out. The back of the pack won't even be on the front straight yet.

When I was in the slowest class in the group instead of the fastest class, I used to really welcome those late greens, so that maybe we could get a proper 2-by-2 start.

[lateapex911]

Yea, I'm with you Josh. I wrecked in qualifying once and had to start 67th of 69 at Watkins Glen. At the time the starters stand was near the beginning of the straight, and I bet maybe 6 rows were ON the straight when the green waved. I was two corners away, and I guessed we were going..because I had found a car with a radio antenna on it, and keyed off him.

[Knestis]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Fair enough.

Josh also points out that the pace car - and the FIELD - has an obligation to get it organized on the pace lap. The reason that I was in the position I was at Mid-O is that the row ahead of me was dawdling all the way around almost to the carousel (scrubbing tires, mostly).

K

[shwah]

This is why IMO we need to reinforce to the starters that it is OK, actually preferred, and IMO safer to wave a bad group off.

Even if there is a split start.

Even if it is a 4 mile track.

[racer14itc]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

[iambhooper]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

Are you refering to the staters stand or the pagoda? I've been in the that starters stand, and you can see everything.

[racer14itc]

Are you refering to the staters stand or the pagoda? I've been in the that starters stand, and you can see everything.

hoop,

it all depends are where either the Chief Steward is located at that moment, or what the starter and/or start judge see. The start judge should be on the starter's stand as well.

I was not there so I can't speak as to why no action was taken.

MC

[Z3_GoCar]

Looks like some folks might want to re-read GCR 6.8.3. As an SIT, if I had seen this from the tower (which is admittedly difficult because of the pit wall hindering line of sight in this case), I would have certainly reported it to the Chief Steward. It would then be his/her call to issue a CSA (Chief Steward's Action).

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC

By leave the pavement (I beileve it's racing surface in the GCR), I presume you mean all four off??

[Knestis]

This is why IMO we need to reinforce to the starters that it is OK, actually preferred, and IMO safer to wave a bad group off.

Even if there is a split start.

Even if it is a 4 mile track.

Even if it the day is behind schedule...?


By leave the pavement (I beileve it's racing surface in the GCR), I presume you mean all four off??

That's always been my operational understanding.

K

[shwah]

Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC
I never saw that car leave the pavement.

[shwah]

Even if it the day is behind schedule...?


K
Did this result help out with the schedule?

Yes regardless of schedule. Not following our own rules for the rolling start is a dangerous practice, literally.

[Knestis]

I absolutely agree but there's no question that I've seen compromises to safety made over the years, influenced by the clock.

K

[Ron]

Following Greg Amy during night practice at VIR 13 hr in 2007, I learned that at the left hander after the uphill esses if you cut the inside of the corner you kick up just enough dirt that the following car can't see an exit point. Not saying it was done on purpose, but one does learn "tricks" that can be used later in life.
Also that year we were starting close to the back and it was the fasted pace lap I have ever done. I think the plan from the starters was to spread the field out with a fast pace car. I think the pace car turned a 2:30 lap time! It did however spread the field and it was a smooth start.

[StephenB]

GCR 6.8.3.
Essentially it says if you leave the pavement during competition and gain an advantage, said advantage can be rescinded by the Chief Steward. This applies at the start as well.

MC


This is a correct statement but to be considered "leaving the racing surface" you need to have all 4 wheels off the racing surface. You also need to re-enter the track where all 4 wheels left... but you can't turnaround :blink:

In this case all 4 wheels DID NOT leave the track. until he started spinning and boucing around.

[racer14itc]

This is a correct statement but to be considered "leaving the racing surface" you need to have all 4 wheels off the racing surface. You also need to re-enter the track where all 4 wheels left... but you can't turnaround :blink:

In this case all 4 wheels DID NOT leave the track. until he started spinning and boucing around.

Stephen, the "4 wheels off " clause of 6.8.3 only applies to temporary and airport circuits that are marked. So the "off course excursion" portion of 6.8.3 is open to interpretation by drivers and stewards. Guess who usually wins? :eek:

FWIW, this situation could also be penalized under 2.1.4, reckless or dangerous driving. The stewards have several options to curb aggressive driving at the starts...

MC

[StephenB]

Stephen, the "4 wheels off " clause of 6.8.3 only applies to temporary and airport circuits that are marked. So the "off course excursion" portion of 6.8.3 is open to interpretation by drivers and stewards.

I think it is fair to say that in the nicest way possible I completly disagree with you unless noted in the supps.

"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course durng a competion, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion. Unless otherwise provided by Supplementary Regulations, when ever a driver leaves an artificially marked course or an airport circuit with all four (4) wheels, he shall re-enter the course at the same spot where he went off, and cannot simply re-enter further down the course, subject to the directions of the Corner Worker controlling Re-entry"


Guess who usually wins?

I 100% AGREE with you here. At LRP a few years back the stewards penalized you for dropping 2 wheels over a painted line in the uphill... Didn't even have to drop of the pavement at the top of the hill! If you touched that line = DQ!!!



FWIW, this situation could also be penalized under 2.1.4, reckless or dangerous driving. The stewards have several options to curb aggressive driving at the starts...

MC

I 100% AGREE with you here.

Stephen

PS: Thanks for being an SIT. My brother did this and I simply don't have the time... working in retail weekends are a must :(
Eventhough we will probably never race together and I may never attend an event you personally work at I thank anyone that takes the time to volenteer in our club! Even if we disagree :)

[jjjanos]

I cannot say that I disagree but Starters are aware that the sooner they give the green the faster the speeds are in the first turn when it gets tight and cars start bouncing off each other.

Which is a red herring. The problem isn't how fast cars are going at Turn 1. It's the number of cars trying to go through at once. It's the accordian effect that is the problem.

Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.

[Knestis]

...Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.

Also a fair point. At that juncture however, the bitch should be with the pole-sitter. And potentially with the pace car driver if he/she sets a speed that's not appropriate. AND THAT is a separate issue from the speed of the pace car on the out lap...

Lots of responsibility in lots of little pieces, the sum of which can be a big PITA.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

IMHO, it's not the start that was the problem.... As I saw it in the video here are some of the mistakes leading to the whole incident:

1 ) Tristian did have a very small overlap, maybe a couple of inches maybe less than that, with the gray car.

2 ) The yellow Rx7 swerved.

3 ) The gray car overreacted and swerved into the VW which had been there... causing the pitt manuver type spin into the fence.

What did make this worse for lots of people was the fact that it was a start and lots of cars were in close proximity togeather. I didn't see who tapped the car taking the video. I thought he was free untill he went sideways.

[tac911t]

IMHO, it's not the start that was the problem.... As I saw it in the video here are some of the mistakes leading to the whole incident:

1 ) Tristian did have a very small overlap, maybe a couple of inches maybe less than that, with the gray car.

2 ) The yellow Rx7 swerved.

3 ) The gray car overreacted and swerved into the VW which had been there... causing the pitt manuver type spin into the fence.

What did make this worse for lots of people was the fact that it was a start and lots of cars were in close proximity togeather. I didn't see who tapped the car taking the video. I thought he was free untill he went sideways.

What gray car? The yellow Rx7 moved over just a little to the right toward the blue Rx7, the blue Rx7 was still on the track, and they both probably would not have touched each other. Brake lights did not appear on the VW until after the blue Rx7 was hit, not to mention that there was a 2 or 3 car hole behind the blue Rx7 that VW could have slipped into. At the point the blue Rx7 was hit, the guardrail and the track were moving closer together, and the VW ran out of room. It seems that if the guardrail and track did not close in at that point, the blue Rx7 would have been passed in the grass on the right.

I was a few rows behind Hoop, and all I saw was a dirt cloud to the right, and cars spinning of to the left.

[RexRacer19]

Which is a red herring. The problem isn't how fast cars are going at Turn 1. It's the number of cars trying to go through at once. It's the accordian effect that is the problem.

Maintain the pace car speed. "Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the pace car pulling off." (GCR - Sporting Regulations).

- That doesn't happen and certainly didn't happen in many of the starts at VIR.


Also a fair point. At that juncture however, the bitch should be with the pole-sitter. And potentially with the pace car driver if he/she sets a speed that's not appropriate. AND THAT is a separate issue from the speed of the pace car on the out lap...

Lots of responsibility in lots of little pieces, the sum of which can be a big PITA.

K

While I can't speak for the other groups this past weekend, being the pole sitter for group 6 on both days, I can say that things went absolutley like they should have up front. The pace car maintained a slow and consistent speed all around the course, and once it went in I maintained that speed within 5mph until the green flew. The cars that I could see behind me were formed up nice as well.

[Z3_GoCar]

What gray car? The yellow Rx7 moved over just a little to the right toward the blue Rx7, the blue Rx7 was still on the track, and they both probably would not have touched each other. Brake lights did not appear on the VW until after the blue Rx7 was hit, not to mention that there was a 2 or 3 car hole behind the blue Rx7 that VW could have slipped into. At the point the blue Rx7 was hit, the guardrail and the track were moving closer together, and the VW ran out of room. It seems that if the guardrail and track did not close in at that point, the blue Rx7 would have been passed in the grass on the right.

I was a few rows behind Hoop, and all I saw was a dirt cloud to the right, and cars spinning of to the left.

Sorry, the dark blue looks like a steel grey on my screen.

[cooleyjb]

Even if it the day is behind schedule...?



Isn't that why races have a number of laps and max time to keep it from getting behind schedule. The pulling of cars after a session slows the day down more than a wave-off.


This is why IMO we need to reinforce to the starters that it is OK, actually preferred, and IMO safer to wave a bad group off.

Even if there is a split start.

Even if it is a 4 mile track.

FWIW they did wave off at least one start this weekend. One of the open wheel groups was waved off.

[jjjanos]

FWIW they did wave off at least one start this weekend. One of the open wheel groups was waved off.

True, but only because they needed to send an EV to retrieve a sports racer that parked on track during the pace lap.

[SRX-7#27]

[QUOTE=Z3_GoCar;287671]IMHO, it's not the start that was the problem.... As I saw it in the video here are some of the mistakes leading to the whole incident:

1 ) Tristian did have a very small overlap, maybe a couple of inches maybe less than that, with the gray car.

2 ) The yellow Rx7 swerved.

3 ) The gray car overreacted and swerved into the VW which had been there... causing the pitt manuver type spin into the fence.
QUOTE]

The yellow RX-7 did not "swerve". After the green, I moved over on blue #58 as we headed to turn 1 and we both had plentey of room. We know each other well and have raced hard that way for the better part of a decade. Blue 58 was hit hard from behind by an out of control car. Plain and simple... I've kept my mouth shut on this thread since Tristan was good enough to take ownership for the problem on Sunday and post the video. Shows he has learned from what happened, and that's really all that matters. But don't you try to be an armchair QB and spread the blame on an incident you were not involved in and clearly don't understand. -Al Gervais