Spec Tire For Proit Series??

[Robert Zecca]

Spec Tire For Pro It Series ?? We have been approached by Hoosier to be the Spec Tire for our series. What do you think? Give me you thoughts? The Miatas mostly run Toyo and could stay on Toyo if they wish. We want to keep costs down if they are willing to pay contigency money towards tires why not? I want what is best for you guys.....this is your series so please tell me what to do.

After speaking to competitors at NHIS this past weekend they all said KEEP PRO IT cheap, no changes in rules, etc..... WILL DO!
They also said if we do go to a tire make it Hoosier. They are not the cheapest but they are the best so if they add money great.

Last note, next year we may be supporting World Challenge events as well so lets keep this momentum going. We need to be inexpensive, competitive and show other potential racers that they need to be part of SCCA.

Thanks
Bob Zecca
http://72.167.111.130/forums/images/chromium/blue/misc/progress.gif http://72.167.111.130/forums/images/chromium/blue/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=287216)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Well the 'best' is debatable.

DO NOT DO IT. The SM's run in your series on Toyo's. Don't force them to buy tires...or anyone not running Hoosiers. BFG, Kumho, Goodyear...I have seen them all on grid.

Give us a 50% discount and maybe...

[spnkzss]

Spec tire in a series that is not spec cars, will ruin that series.

Contingency from Hoosier is one thing, forcing them to run any tire, bad idea.

[Robert Zecca]

Yes this is true. We would exclude SM since they run Toyo but after looking at the field at NHIS the majority of IT cars ran Hoosier. Do not worry we should leave SM alone. Keep the thoughts coming.

WE WILL NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT A MAJORITY CONSENSUS!

[Robert Zecca]

What if we ask all tire companies to see what they will do for a contingency program and bag the idea of a Spec tire?

[tom_sprecher]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if to run a spec tire is to save money and you're looking at Hoosier, is there a more expensive tire that guys are running now? If not how will this save money?

I cafoozed.

[Doc Bro]

Bob,

First let me say thank you for your generosity and most importantly TIME. You have gone well above and beyond what most would do for amateur road racing. I am priveledged to call you my friend.

There are three talking points in my mind about a spec tire.

1. Some guys (Autotechnic, Andy) run a tire in IT other than the Hoosier and have directed their development efforts at perfecting their combination.

2. It may keep some guys out of the series if they were only planning on doing one or two events, but then found out they needed a spec tire that was of a different brand than they already had.

3. We have nothing else "spec" in IT, and it is an "IT centric" series.

My .02

R

[lateapex911]

Tom, I'd assume Hoosier would provide some form of reimbursement. THEY would want that to be in the form of free tires (or discounts on their product) to the winners and top placing cars.

THat is anything but a money saver for the bigger group. Now everyone has to be on the super fresh stuff the winner is on if they want to be in the game. Costs go up. Hoosier likes THAT!

Spec tires are very very dangerous. Look at the FIASCO happening in NASA right now with Toyo. Choosing a spec tire has nearly killed a once healthy series.

History has shown, Bob, that spec tires work best when two condistions are met:
1- The cars are "spec"
2- the company is benevolent, and the changes to tires, pricing, production, etc are announced a year in advance. Benevolent means ALL parties buy at significant discount, and there are no limitations.

In mixed marque racing, and especially a series as this, where most drivers "cross over" (From other goals, such as NARRC, or just running favorite other races), and few drivers are only doing the ProIT series, a spec tire is a very bad idea.

[robits325is]

I think we discussed using the Hoosier Cup tires. These are harder than the regular R6 tire so they should last longer and equalize one more aspect of this series. I discussed this with Smarty and he is going to check with Hoosier on a possible discount / contingency for the Pro-IT series.

[StephenB]

Bob,

I agree if we run a Spec tire it should be to save money. Hoosier had spoken about using another compound other than the one most IT racers are running. I had the impression it was harder, lasted longer, and would be cheaper for us. I think that if Hoosier is willing to do a spec tire they should understand the advertising they will get especially if we run with World Challenge. They should then take that value and then give us back as much as they can! I think hoosier should look at us like a way to advertise their product not to make a billion $$. It seems as though (no actual fact on my part) that spec tires have often been more money or even gone up in $ since they had a monopoly type situation. Again that is speculation only.

So in the end... a great opportunity for hoosier to get exposure, and possibly if priced correctly (like 30% less than the current Hoosiers we run) then we could have a great partnership and I would be all for it!

Stephen

PS: I personally don't use a ton of "take-Offs" but I have already heard about the "take-offs" AKA used tire concerns as well. Some of our fellow competitors run on Free "take-offs" and I think it is a valid concern since not many would exist since onlyour IT cars would be running this new compound.

[lateapex911]

The problem remains, Rob, guys like me. I will do a couple Pro races this year. Now, my car doesn't really fit the classes offered, so I'm only doing a couple. Still, I can't see myself dedicating the entire season to JUST this series. I know a few will, but I bet the majority will do other events.

Now, if the Pro series is on a spec tire that's not even used in our "normal" races, well, that's a real deal killer to me. Having to have yet another set of wheels or two dedicated to just these tires, or schlepping yet again to the tire busters and mounting/ dismounting even more tires, between events and paying $100 each time. Yeeccch. Not to mention the hassle. Most of us don't own shops and have lackeys who either do it on our own machines or take them to the tire place as a normal course of business. It's a freaking hassle and expense.

I think the majority of the guys who run the series are NOT on Hoosiers, (Although I bet Hoosier is the biggest single supplier) and NONE are on the Cup tire. And most do more than the Pro series.

[gran racing]

They are not the cheapest but they are the best so if they add money great.

If a spec tire is used (and within reason), it really doesn't matter much if the tire is the best or not as everyone would be using them.

If a spec tire were utilized in the series, it would be nice to have everyone receive a discount off the purchase price and not just the top dogs winning free tires. Then again. :D

A few years ago I was asked to run some Honda Challenge races. They Honda Challenge moved to Toyos. With me still wanting to run IT and couldn't run Toyos to be up front, that meant getting another set of rims specifically for HC. Then purchasing and managing another group tires. Blah. I was told I could still enter HC races with my Hoosiers but just wouldn't be competiting for a true win. All of that prevented me from giving HC a try.

Maybe there's a way to avoid the issues Jake mentioned, but I really don't know. The Hoosier Cup tires could be interesting, but again it would mean managing a second set of tires.

[StephenB]

Bob,



2. It may keep some guys out of the series if they were only planning on doing one or two events, but then found out they needed a spec tire that was of a different brand than they already had.
My .02

R

This is a VERY good point and probalby the biggest point that sticks out in my mind as far as why we shouldn't do a spec tire. I have interpreted The goals of this series to increase car counts by encouraging "double dipping" and by piggy backing IT with other forms of racing like Nationals, ARCA, ect where we normally wouldn't have revenue from entries from IT. If we did go to a spec tire the cost would go up significantly for those that are "double dipping" and the extra events we run could no longer be considered of value for testing and tuning for someone that is running the NARRC series and may be using our series to "test and Tune".

Great point, could possibly have persuaded me back to anything goes! And yes I was completly all for a spec tire this weekend when the topic came up. This thread is excellent to see everyones thoughts, for and against the idea.

I still want to see a Tire Sponser for our series. Several if possible as it is my #3 expense and the only one in the top three that I control. If someone comes up with contingency money I will most likely be switching to them!

Stephen

[ekim952522000]

This is just my opinion but I think going to a spec tire is a HORRIBLE idea with no positives that I can think of. Nothing is spec in IT so no spec tires.

Isn't better advertising for Hoosier to win in a open tire class anyway.

Not to mention you would be making it so guys could not just hop in for one or two races a year on the normal tire they run.

<---Sorry really passionate about this after the whole Honda Challenge - NASA TOYO RA-1/R888 disaster and the following internet drama.

[Robert Zecca]

You guys make excellent points and this is why we discuss things. I believe at this point to just approach tire companies for contingency money and BAG the idea of a spec tire. It is not fair to the few who can not run the series and again we must think down the road to keep costs down and be affordable to the masses. We have the best competitive racing period the way things are using the present tires. I do not see any advantages or disadvantages on the track.

Lets not ruffle feathers and see if tire companies will give us prize monies.

[Robert Zecca]

You guys make excellent points and this is why we discuss things. I believe at this point to just approach tire companies for contingency money and BAG the idea of a spec tire. It is not fair to the few who can not run the series and again we must think down the road to keep costs down and be affordable to the masses. We have the best competitive racing period the way things are using the present tires. I do not see any advantages or disadvantages on the track.

Lets not ruffle feathers and see if tire companies will give us prize monies.

[ekim952522000]

You guys make excellent points and this is why we discuss things. I believe at this point to just approach tire companies for contingency money and BAG the idea of a spec tire. It is not fair to the few who can not run the series and again we must think down the road to keep costs down and be affordable to the masses. We have the best competitive racing period the way things are using the present tires. I do not see any advantages or disadvantages on the track.

Lets not ruffle feathers and see if tire companies will give us prize monies.

:happy204:

[gran racing]

Bob and Darrell, I have to say that you guys have really impressed me with the efforts being put into this series. Nice job.

[Knestis]

No dog in the fight but that's a great answer based on my experiences.

K

[RacerBowie]

You guys make excellent points and this is why we discuss things. I believe at this point to just approach tire companies for contingency money and BAG the idea of a spec tire. It is not fair to the few who can not run the series and again we must think down the road to keep costs down and be affordable to the masses. We have the best competitive racing period the way things are using the present tires. I do not see any advantages or disadvantages on the track.

Lets not ruffle feathers and see if tire companies will give us prize monies.

I'm an outsider here, and hell would basically have to freeze over for me to be able to run a NE Pro IT race, but BRAVO for making this decision, and listening to your racers.

More and more event organizers are starting to realize just how important listening to what we the racers want really is, and it is making our little corner of the sport a better place.

[spnkzss]

To kinda side track, I keep hearing this spec tire thing proposed to "save money". How does this save money? The people that want to win are going to always run a set of "x" heat cycled tires because the "x"th heat cycle is the fastest. :shrug:

[ekim952522000]

To kinda side track, I keep hearing this spec tire thing proposed to "save money". How does this save money? The people that want to win are going to always run a set of "x" heat cycled tires because the "x"th heat cycle is the fastest. :shrug:

To me it is similar to the Remote Reservoir shock thing, thinking that rules are going to limit costs. Falls into the same category as Street Touring in Auto crossing when they made the 140 tread wear rule hoping to keep costs down, and now manufactures make expensive sticky 140 tread wear tires that a lot of time cost more then R compounds and are shaved to last just as long.:shrug:

[dickita15]

What are Hoosier Cup tires?

[ekim952522000]

What are Hoosier Cup tires?
My guess would be the grand-am tires.

[StephenB]

Yes they are the GrandAm tires. Never used or scene them but from what I have heard they are a bit harder and made to last longer. Someone else will no more but that is the topside of the difference as I understand it.

Stephen

[ekim952522000]

Yes they are the GrandAm tires. Never used or scene them but from what I have heard they are a bit harder and made to last longer. Someone else will no more but that is the topside of the difference as I understand it.

Stephen

From the guys I have talked to that ran grand-am, I heard the tires make Toyo's seem like Hoosier R6's

[trhoppe]

Great idea to not have spec tires. Worst idea ever. If a tire is better then all others, it will become the "spec" tire anyways.

What you need to do is approach for more contingency/prizes. Nice job!

[lateapex911]

Yea, there's much grumbling form the guys who've run on IT Hoosiers and the Cup Hoosiers...not a lot of love for the Cup tires.

Bob, I'll echo the comments, thanks for listening..and being open minded. Some of the yahoos that post here have some good insight!

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am not sure they make the Cup tire in less than a 17" diameter.

Invite the companied to put up special contingencies for running their brand. Simple. As soon as you require everyone to run a specific tire, you kill the entries that don't run them and you do not backfill them with anyone.

[rthiele]

How about a tire distributor as a partner for the series? Tire Rack sponsors BMWCCA Clubracing for example.

[raffaelli]

Yes they are the GrandAm tires. Never used or scene them but from what I have heard they are a bit harder and made to last longer. Someone else will no more but that is the topside of the difference as I understand it.

Stephen


I have them for my E46 M3 for DE. Yes, they are harder, traction is not as good as 'regular' Hoosiers. But my experience may be tempered since I buy them already race used. 18" for sure, 245 I think.

[philstireservice]

How about a tire distributor as a partner for the series? Tire Rack sponsors BMWCCA Clubracing for example.


If you're going to do this make sure the company does the trackside service for your series.

[gran racing]

You offering Phil? :happy204:

[philstireservice]

Unfortunately we are not able to attend all the events, and if I was, I would want an exclusive !!!

[DaveITB1]

Smarty will be trackside for the 2009 ProIT Series Drivers.

http://www.northeastracingtire.com/Home.html

[tom_sprecher]

I believe at this point to just approach tire companies for contingency money and BAG the idea of a spec tire....Lets not ruffle feathers and see if tire companies will give us prize monies.

This is how we have been doing it for years in the South. Hoosier provides free tires based on how you placed in a certain size field or sponsorship $$$ depending on what series we are talking about. The usual conditions is you must win on Hoosiers or all the cars running the series must display stickers.

We do have a spec tire for IT7 (Toyo RA1), but it is cheaper that a Hoosier and lasts much longer (general consensus).

What you describe above is not what I consider a "spec" tire rule. To me it is more a sweetheart deal for Hoosier and the race winners. How does the average racer benefit?

[Mark Gregory]

Please do not advocate a spec tire. Let the tire companies compete for our buisness, this may bring the price down. What we sould do is limit the number of tires per car per season. Of course we know a new tire has the best performance but a good race tire will last much longer than you think and will usualy stabilize after a couple of heat cycles so the performance is consistant. The limiting of sets of tires used per season would add a very interesting dynamic to the race / qualifying strategy for the championship. The limiting if number of tires would even the playing field a little and make it more affordable to the budget racer to compete in the PRO serise. I would be pleased to be involve with a study to select the " right tire " the number of tires and a set of rules that could be enforced to control the number of tires used.

[PsychoRallye]

I would still love to see Hoosier offer some real discounts on the tires for adverts on the car, I'd love to run hoosiers but they aren't cheap and for that money I might as well spend a little more and get the Goodyears so....

[StephenB]

I don't think that limiting tires will work for our type of racing. I think it would be great for similar chasis... like prototype Rolex cars or other series where the cars have similar HP, and weights, even FWD vs. RWD. I think the chasis differences in IT is to great and tire wear is to drastically different.

Stephen

[gran racing]

Mark, I like the concept but what Stephen said is spot on. For example, the MR2 would absolutely clean house in ITB as they are so easy on tires. I do like the ideas being discussed.

[Mark Gregory]

The idea is to cut cost. The study would be to find out what cars realy need new tires every race and what cars can run for longer on old rubber. front wheel drive cars may use more fronts than rears if they have the same alocation as a rear wheel drive car thay may have an advantage by only having to replace the fronts more often. Could your car go all season - ten races on three sets of tires ? - when i ran the ITA Golf in 2000 we only purchased new front and put worn fronts on the rear. Thing about this average cost of tires $1000 mounted and balanced. three sets $3000 ten races. cost for tires per race $300. In 2005 I ran 14 NARRC races with three sets of tires and the third set was for the runoff at Lime rock. I did a 1.017 at Lime rock on tires that had done 4 race weekends. I think I was on the front row next to Nick with a set of 3 race tires in june of that year. We have learned from our endurance racing that tires can go much longer than you think without a great loss of performance at the 24 hour race we ran a set of tires ( I will keep the name of the tire for now) for 8 hours with little or no performance loss . I agree that all cars are different that is why it would take a little work to figure it out but the goal is to reduce racing cost and we all know that tires are on of our biggest expences.

[dj10]

How about a tire distributor as a partner for the series? Tire Rack sponsors BMWCCA Clubracing for example.

I like this idea.

[Beran]

I'd like to run a race or two in the ProIt series...
I run hoosiers and I will be running whatever other race that happens to be the same weekend.
I will want to be able to race whatever I bring to race for the whole weekend. Not have to buy a special set of tires to compete in ProIT.... especially if those "special" tires are not what I normally run. I get a couple weekends out of a set of tires.
my .02