Roll cage bad bend?

[moe_1200]

This could be a dumb question but on the front down tubes on my roll cage there is a crimp where they were bent to go from the a-pillars to behind the dash. In the GCR it states that you cannot have any crimping on the main hoop but i'm not sure about these front down tubes. It doesn't look too safe to me so i'm assuming its no good but if I could get away without having to completely change the down tubes that would be great. It's a halo design cage if that matters any.

Also another question I'm having is about my turn signal/running lights. According to the regs any lights mounted on or below the bumper shall be removed. The car is a 93 Ford Probe and the turn signals are mounted at bumper level recessed in about an inch. Do I need to remove these or can I leave them since they are recessed into the bumper?

[Streetwise guy]

I sure don't like it. It appears the bend wasn't a tight enough radius, so he "finessed" it with a porto-power.If you just paid somebody a bunch of cash to install the cage, I would go back and bitch until he redid the downtubes. If its a car you have bought, cage done already, it can probably be repaired with a supplemental tube to be as strong as it needs to be. The problem then is passing tech, since any repair/modification that falls into either a gray area or in a plain old black area is likely to be failed.

[cjb25hs]

That is super scary:eek: Fix It, the down tube needs to be replaced.

[rsportvolvo]

Not good! Replace as previously stated!

Additionally would you be willing to inform the group as to who did your cage work or who built the cage originally? It might save someone's neck!

[Spinnetti]

Few other comments...

I have side markers in the fender but not far from how the Probe lights are. If you tape them up, I doubt anybody will give you any problem, and if they do, its easy enough to pop them out.

The cage is definitely no good for several reasons. The crimp will probably kill you in a roll over and I can't imagine it passing tech. Recently I've seen a few good wrecks at the track which make me feel a whole lot less safe with IT cages, including a fairly minor hit where a tube sheared clean off.

Last bit is that in your picture, the left tube is welded to the A pillar. If this is an IT car, the cage has to be stand alone, and only contact the body at a maximum of 8 points - the 4 main ones, 2 rear stays and to footwell intrusion bars... (stupid rule IMO, but thats the way it is) Looks like there's some work to do there.

[John Herman]

One potential way to fix this, short of cutting the tube completely out and redoing it, would be to add a large "taco" gusset across the corner. But it's hard to see how much room you have with that bolted-in bracket there. In addition to the gussest, you could add a triangulating tube to go from the downtube to the door bar.

[Chip42]

don't "fix" it, replace it. even if you were to hide it behind a "taco" gusset, it's still a major weak point and we don't go out there to see ourselves and our friends get killed, especially when the cages should protect us. for your sake and the good of the club, PLEASE correct the problem and replace the tube.

and the additional weldments to the chassis, as noted, need to go away, too. who built this thing?

[Greg Amy]

Ouch, that's ugly. Technically, I don't think it's "illegal" to the prep rules, but it's certainly not "good".

Whoever did that needs a good swift kick to the nuts.

[joeg]

Gussett it. Properly done, that will be plenty strong.

Does it show with the dashboard installed?

[Greg Amy]

Additionally, is this an Improved Touring car? If so, that stitch-welding to the A-pillar is illegal.

I'd suggest finding a good tech inspector in your area to review that cage in its entirety. I'm guessing whoever built that did not know/understand the IT prep rules well.

GA

[NORRIS]

Also part of the problem here is becoming more common, it's a late model car with a steeply raked windshield. That increases the bend at the bottom of the A pillar and makes it less of a bend at the top of the A pillar. On my BMW we added a bar at about 45 degrees from your left shoulder area that runs up to the mid-point between the top of the A pillar and the main hoop. I've also seen cars that add a straight tube down from the top of the A pillar down to the front floor plate.

Also, isn't there supposed to be a cross bar? Those door beams aren't going to be much help without one.

[arpenn]

I would replace the down tube if it were my car. Safety is not an area to skimp on, it's not worth your life. A crimp in a tube becomes the weak point, and the point of failure in an accident. It looks to me like the builder either didn't have the correct die to make that sharp of bend or they tried to use a pipe bender instead of a tubing bender. If you paid someone to build the cage I would take it back and have a heart to heart talk with the builder. And as others have stated the cage can't be welded to the A-pillar. Good Luck!

[joeg]

John--The GCR does not require a "crossbar".

[betamotorsports]

I don't know of any tech inspector that will pass that bend regardless of how many gussets you weld in. Cut out the entire door hoop and replace it and fire whomever fabricated the cage.

[Speed Raycer]

Based on that one picture, I'd be suspect of the entire cage. Wouldn't surprise me if there were missing welds, ERW tube and other stitching. My guess is that the tube didn't fit so the builder made it fit rather than starting over. Has $400 circle track builder written all over it. I'd also guess that there's no weld on the "backside" of the doorbar, which is the reason for the stitch weld. Might as well post some pics of the rest of the cage so we can see if there are any other issues. If you paid good money for it, take it back. If it was in the car when you bought it, cut it out and start fresh.

[moe_1200]

I bought the car with the cage already in there however I do know who installed it. It was a quality shop that does a lot of nice so i'm not sure why they did this. Regardless the car wasn't built to SCCA regs so i'm going through and changing things. As far as the side bars being welded in like that I didn't think that was legal so I'll make sure to eliminate that. The rest of the cage seems to be ok to me but I'll let you guys be the judge of that. In these pictures there's only one side impact bar on the passenger side, I recently added another to make it legal (kinda wish I had waited if i'm replacing the down tubes)

[quadzjr]

I know that it is still in the mock up phase but rear strut tower bars are illegal as well in IT.

[Chip42]

since you are into it you might as well go through and measure all of the required member wall thicknesses and ensure they are in line with the GCR. you also might want to consider adding the gussets (tacos are popular and effective), foot protectors, and a petty bar (looks like you have provisions for a passenger seat - you can make the petty removable if you want to keep that provision).

[Spinnetti]

Youch..

Basic cage design looks ok, but "A" pillar issue, rear tower reinforcement and rear strut bar are illegal, and though hard to tell from the pictures, all of the welding looks bad. I used to be a professional welder, and those aren't. They don't appear to have anywhere near enough penetration - looks like they attempted to weld it with a 110v welder.... You may like the car or have gotten a deal, but my guess is that this car is going to cost you potentially much more to make legal, safe and right than you would starting from scratch.

[betamotorsports]

Picture 2 in post 16.

Looks like the harness bar wasn't notched where it meets the main hoop and the gap was filled with weld. A few other welds look similar and maybe weld bead was used to hide poor fitment.

Before you do any more work, call the local SCCA region and find a shop that does annual tech inspections. Take the chassis there and ask them to inspect the cage and get their opinion.

[Tak]

Further headaches--it looks like the main hoop diagonal and cross tube are a different diameter than the main hoop. Those are all required to be the same size.
I'll second the comments on the welds--they look cold with poor penetration.

With a finger or a dental mirror, inspect for full circumfrence welds in all the tight locations (under the roof, behind the A-pillar, etc.

I tend to agree with the group--cut it out and and start over. Sorry.

[moe_1200]

Well folks after further review from all your help the curse words have begun fly. The welds are all of poor quality, there are gaps in the hard to reach areas. Not only that but after measuring the mounting plates they are only .040 thick! half of the required thickness, this cage is junk! I may as well be driving with a cage made out of empty beer cans and duct tape (full beer cans would be too structurally sound) I am in amazement with the awful construction of this cage. The lesson has been learned, never assume that a roll cage is of good quality if it comes from a quality shop. I don't want to release the name of the shop since they mainly specialize in drag racing so this may not be a fair evaluation in the quality of their workmanship. From talking to the owner of the shop (who built this car for himself) this cage was designed for an F-body car but modified to fit a Ford Probe. I'm not sure why a cage for an F-body which is heavier than a Probe was built so skimpy. Regardless it seems the wallet is going on a diet and i'm gonna have to evaluate my options. Any opinions on how to go forward with this would be greatly appreciated.

1. Completely remove this cage and install another
2. Use the other Ford Probe I have to install a cage and swap performance goodies from the current bad cage car
3. Sell as is to someone willing and move on to a car with logbook already issued!
4. Anything else I haven't thought of

[Xian]

Ouch. Yeah, there's really nothing there to salvage.

I'd strongly suggest #3 not only because you'll have a bit more of a "known quantity" WRT legality but you'll also save $$ vs. building your own. On top of this, it might allow you to pick a chassis that will be a bit more competitive in class. My suggestion would be to look at Honda, Mazda, and VW's as there are typically plenty of competitively classed cars on the market.

Christian

[Speed Raycer]

Ouch. I feel for you. If you're a Probe nut and absolutely MUST drive a Probe, #2 could be an option. Swap everything over to a fresh build then scrap value for the chassis. Otherwise, #3

Let us know your location and we can probably point you in the right direction for a quality cage or an already logbooked car.

[moe_1200]

I'm in northeast Indiana about 45 minutes north of Fort Wayne

[spnkzss]

I know it sucks and feel for you big time. Been there done that, luckily not on my dime. Could you please do someone else a favor and cut the thing up. You would feel horrible if you sold it as-is and heard someone got hurt because they weren't paying attention. I know, shame on them, but it's one thing to screw somebody out of money vs. life.

[betamotorsports]

Cut it up and make some monkey bars for your kids.

[frnkhous]

This should be about 3-4 hours from you.

www.rollcageguy.com

Mark does excellent work, he's just on your the west edge of akron. I'm sure others can point you somewhere else but his work is top notch and his prices are very reasonable

Brian Frank

[Z3_GoCar]

I'll second Mark's work, having put my Z3 on it's roof. The spot that's deformed on your cage is right where the most damage is on mine. However, on mine the top corner moved down by an inch or so by bending in that same spot.

I understand that Mark's not even as expensive as you'd think.

James

[Speed Raycer]

Actually, I'd third Mark, except I'm not that much further from the OP's location ;)

[fiero14]

I wouldn't sell what's left. I'd bet the info you received about the cage is incorrect. No respectable shop would send this cage out the door on purpose. For the sake of other competitors in any racing series, remove the good parts, crush the rest.

[Speed Raycer]

.... I'd bet the info you received about the cage is incorrect. No respectable shop would send this cage out the door on purpose.

You're correct, no respectable shop would. Unfortunately, there are a lot of shops out there that have done/currently do/will do that kind of work and pass it off as normal. Some of the stuff out there is just plain scary.

[moe_1200]

Correction on the mounting plates they're actually about a .140 most likely .125 since it's difficult to get an actual measurement on them, stupid move on my part reading the dial caliper incorrectly derrr. I'll be taking it to a tech inspector in Indy to get his opinion but so far it looks like i'll be replacing the front downtubes as well as the horizontal and diagnol bracing inside the main hoop assuming all other existing welds are "ok". Before I take it down though if I were to drill a hole in the cage to check wall thickness where would a good location to do that be?

[Speed Raycer]

Drill a 3/16" hole 6" away from any bend or weld is ideal, but not always possible.

IMO, if you're cutting the front out, and the harness/diagonal out.... just cut the entire cage out. It's a bigger PITA to try and fit to something thats already there than it is to start fresh and you'll never get the fit that you would by starting with a clean slate. Also, the Hoop material has already been welded to one time (even though penetration is doubtful) in the same areas that you'll be reattaching to. Bad juju ;)

When you drill the hole, run a paperclip around inside the tube and feel for a weld seam. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it was an off the shelf ERW cage, in which case it'll have to come back out anyway.

[Gibson]

I would go with Number 2, you may uncover other problems as you disassemble this car. Go Number 3 only if you are absolutely certain the car is sound, otherwise you are right back where you started.