$515 for a 2 day regional at LRP

[StephenB]

Has anyone else looked at the May 29th and 30th LRP "I got your stimulus right here" race yet? It appears to me that it is $225 for Friday and $290 for Saturday! What ever happened to the 2 day single race regionals at LRP? Is this a Stimulus check for LRP, are they that bad off!!

I hope I am reading it wrong??

Stephen

[lateapex911]

"out of my brain on the train.. on the train....out of my brain on the fiiiiiive fifteeeeeeen!"


Whats a LRP test day this season? I think it's $250 or more. And runs typically 1 -5PM?

[dickita15]

Historically regions have run both one day and two day regional at Lime Rock and the cars count have often been higher at the single day events than the two days even though the entry fee was often the same. I have spent a lot of time asking drivers about which events they prefer because this never made sense to me, I prefer the extra track time of a two day event. What I found was a large group of drivers preferred the one day. They did not feel there was enough track time on Friday to justify the day off of work and the expense of staying over for the night.
I think NNJR has come up with a brilliant idea. The $290 one day is about as good a deal as you can get at Lime Rock in this day and age and the Friday test day with 4 run groups will give a lot more track time that the Friday of a two day regional would ever give and is a better deal than the typical Tuesday test day.
If you figure about half the drivers will run the test day the entry income to the region to pay the $53000 rent and other expenses will be about the same as running a two day regional at $400 bit this way you get to choose whether to race for the lower entry fee or get the maximum track time.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Has anyone else looked at the May 29th and 30th LRP "I got your stimulus right here" race yet? It appears to me that it is $225 for Friday and $290 for Saturday! What ever happened to the 2 day single race regionals at LRP? Is this a Stimulus check for LRP, are they that bad off!!

I hope I am reading it wrong??

Stephen

Single day Regional at $290. You are adding a test day.

And for me, if I am at a track for two days, I want two races. No practice and qual, hardship etc...QUAL and RACE. QUAL and RACE.

[dtanthon]

Exactly what Dick said.

Lime Rock gives us unmuffled days, they only have so many to go around. We decided to use the unmuffled days for test & tune for unmuffled cars. We asked if we could make this muffled to get the cost down but Lime Rock only has so many unmuffled days in their schedule.

It is nearly impossible to run at Lime Rock with the expenses and the complaints about lack of track time, the cost of staying over night and losing a day or 2 of work.

We hope you support NNJR with this. Please contact me if you have any comments, questions or observations. We race in NNJR, we are trying to keep that tradition alive. It isn't easy.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Look at it this way. A way better price than LRP provides for a test day - and they only give us half days. If you want to get fast at LRP, the Friday is a bargain.

And a one day for $290. Not cheap - but not bad for LRP. What I do like about the place is that you have Sunday back to work, kids, whatever.

And if you need a 'tie-breaker', go to support a Region who is trying it's best to support us.

[ITA_honda]

not cheap is right.....Ouch:blink:

[Robert Zecca]

Guys,

As you may know I am on the board of NNJR. We rack our brains out at meetings trying to make things work. It should not be a surprise to anyone that things will not be easy financially at Lime Rock. You may be upset but this is one of the best solutions we can come up with. The other solution is we do not have to race at Lime Rock but I do not think this is what we really want. Darrell works harder than anyone to make things happen as does ours and other regions. Please do what you can do to support this race.

Other groups are getting over $350 for the day to run a PDX. THIS IS NOT RACING. What do you guys want??? We bring you ProIT and everyone is happy and we are a hero. The bottom line is suck it up and do what you can. PERSONALLY I am getting worn out fighting the system but this is my job and I must do it. We do this so that we all can race and do the things we love. I ask that YOU UNDERSTAND and support us the best way you can. Next year I may not be asking you for your support.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[raffaelli]

Sorry fellas, but I do not read that this race will cost a penny more than $290.00.
http://www.nescca.com/registration/Supps/09-R-595-S.pdf (http://www.nescca.com/registration/Supps/09-R-595-S.pdf)

The schedule beginning on Thursday evening, Friday with two sessions of practice, Saturday with a qualifier and race all listed in the same PDF as the sanctioning number. There is no mention in the registration supplemental regarding any extra fee for being on the track Friday or that track time is limited to the qualifier and the race.

Unless I am way off base and missing something:shrug:, when I signed up last night and mailed my check this morning, I fully expect to be on track Friday and Saturday for $290.00.

[lateapex911]

It's been a while since I have seen the numbers for Lime Rock, but what a lot of drivers don't understand is the costs involved in racing there. The rental is HUGE. No, really, it's MASSIVELY HUGE. Dick provided it above: $53 THOUSAND dollars. I bet it's the highest per mile and per racing hour in the country. Or maybe just the highest. Seriously.

But wait, there's more. The region has to pay Lime Rock some ridiculous fee for a keg of beer. And the food, and the guy sitting in the ambulance and the tow truck, and on and on.

There's a phrase folks use about good deals that aren't: "The big print giveth, and the little print taketh away". That doesn't work at Lime Rock. For Lime Rock it should read "The big print screweth, and the little print screweth some more".

Add to the beating that Lime Rock provides, a region has numerous other expenses. That bottle of water you drink at tech on a hot day? Not donated by some sponsor. I know, because I've chaired races there, and I've paid for it. My bill for such things was around $400 one year. There are plenty of other costs that get incurred as well.

Short story, I bet NNJR is looking at over 60K to put a race on there. MoHud nearly disolved because of the financial hit they took there recently.

i agree with Dick and Andy, the test/race deal is a good one. The test day is cheaper than Lime Rock charges, will be run better, and will be longer. Trust me on this if you've never tested at Lime Rock. AND, you won't have to schlep the trailer home Tuesday night, just to schlep back Friday night.

More convenient, more track time, less towing costs and cheaper = winner.

I plan to test and race.

(my quote in my frst post was a song lyric just to see if anyone got it..nothing else...)

[Andy Bettencourt]

NEWSFLASH

The paperwork is slightly confusing but the dates are clear at teh top of each page. Supps and registration exist for the T&T Friday and they also exist for the Race on Saturday. The schedule is redundant on both sets of docs but this is how it is:

Friday T&T for $225. Helluva deal.

Sat qual and race for $290. Solid price given previous years.

I don't want to sound preachy but our Regions are really out on a limb to provide us with LRP dates. If you want to race there, make it happen. If not, that is fine too, but don't be upset when it goes away forever. Up to us. These dollars aren't any more expensive than last years NJMP races. Times are tough for sure. Hopefully we can survive it.

[raffaelli]

The paperwork is slightly confusing

Actually, misleading at best.




Thought is was too good to be true.

See you Friday morning.:eclipsee_steering:

[Jeremy Billiel]

It's been a while since I have seen the numbers for Lime Rock, but what a lot of drivers don't understand is the costs involved in racing there. The rental is HUGE. No, really, it's MASSIVELY HUGE. Dick provided it above: $53 THOUSAND dollars. I bet it's the highest per mile and per racing hour in the country. Or maybe just the highest. Seriously.

But wait, there's more. The region has to pay Lime Rock some ridiculous fee for a keg of beer. And the food, and the guy sitting in the ambulance and the tow truck, and on and on.

There's a phrase folks use about good deals that aren't: "The big print giveth, and the little print taketh away". That doesn't work at Lime Rock. For Lime Rock it should read "The big print screweth, and the little print screweth some more".

Add to the beating that Lime Rock provides, a region has numerous other expenses. That bottle of water you drink at tech on a hot day? Not donated by some sponsor. I know, because I've chaired races there, and I've paid for it. My bill for such things was around $400 one year. There are plenty of other costs that get incurred as well.

Short story, I bet NNJR is looking at over 60K to put a race on there. MoHud nearly disolved because of the financial hit they took there recently.

i agree with Dick and Andy, the test/race deal is a good one. The test day is cheaper than Lime Rock charges, will be run better, and will be longer. Trust me on this if you've never tested at Lime Rock. AND, you won't have to schlep the trailer home Tuesday night, just to schlep back Friday night.

More convenient, more track time, less towing costs and cheaper = winner.

I plan to test and race.

(my quote in my frst post was a song lyric just to see if anyone got it..nothing else...)

Nice write up Jake. I can personally tell you that the NER CRB had many lengthy discussions about LRP and it came up more than one time to simply let the track go away. There are some people who like the track, but because of the expense those people are small and getting smaller each year. The $53 thousand dollars includes the Ambulance and Wrecker, but does not include the food, insurance, SCCA racing fees, etc. At the end of the day it costs a region well over $70 GRAND to rent LRP. You guys do the math. We typically loose our shirts at LRP and have to make it up at other tracks. Since the other tracks are all down, that means the regions are taking on HUGE risks. I sincerely think that if the car counts are down that LRP could loose more dates next year. And that's ok in my book as this is all about supply and demand. BUT if you don't like it than you have to attend... Talking about it, complaining about it, etc will not resolve the issue.

Just my .02

Jeremy - NER Road Racing Treasurer

[Andy Bettencourt]

And that Jeremy, is what I think we need to do. If money is the problem at some tracks, then we have to cut the dates down at those venues thereby generating more demand through less supply and either accept less events or add them back in at tracks that may be less desirable and/or less convenient (NHMS and Pocono).

Like I said, its up to us. Demand will dictate the future.

This year we have 3 Regionals there. Maybe 2 is the answer. One May School/Regional and the NARRC Runoffs.

Also, the Pro IT race inside the National helps us all.

[gran racing]

Come on Palmer!!!

As much as I love LRP, two race events is probably going to be it for me there this year. At the pricing LRP demands it sure is a harder sell.


What do you guys want???

Lime Rock to charge regions much less > regions to charge racers less. Won't happen in the short term but that's what people want.

I'm probably looking at the two LRP dates Andy mentioned.

[Jeremy Billiel]

And that Jeremy, is what I think we need to do. If money is the problem at some tracks, then we have to cut the dates down at those venues thereby generating more demand through less supply and either accept less events or add them back in at tracks that may be less desirable and/or less convenient (NHMS and Pocono).

Like I said, its up to us. Demand will dictate the future.

This year we have 3 Regionals there. Maybe 2 is the answer. One May School/Regional and the NARRC Runoffs.

Also, the Pro IT race inside the National helps us all.

Agreed 100%

[Jeremy Billiel]

Lime Rock to charge regions much less > regions to charge racers less. Won't happen in the short term but that's what people want.

I'm probably looking at the two LRP dates Andy mentioned.

Sorry Dave, Not going to happen. With LRP taking events off the table with the LRP club demand is still high and if we back out someone else will pay it. We either accept the price or leave. It's as simple as that unfortunately...

[BUMPnGO]

Pricing themselves out of business imho....start the condo development plans...

[Jeremy Billiel]

Pricing themselves out of business imho....start the condo development plans...

Why do you say that? If they still have people going there how are they pricing themselves out of business?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Pricing themselves out of business imho....start the condo development plans...

They aren't. Maybe OUR business but there are PLENTY of clubs in line to take the dates. And our dates are a premium because they are the rare 103db days limited by the town ordinances. Cheaper days do exist - but at 89db, it ain't for racecars.

[BruceG]

I agree with Andy. I was at SCDA on April 20th which was well attended and The Porsche Club of CT rented the track for Friday and Sat last week. I understand that there were only 20 cars at the LRP test and tune on 4/21 but I still think there is big demand for use of the track thru out the season.:eclipsee_steering:

[lateapex911]

I do wonder about the "club". I'm always getting emails begging me to come up, toss $3K and do a day, and they'll credit me the money to membership. And they now have many levels of membership ....I'm getting the impression that the Club isn't selling as fast as they'd like. Last I heard, after a year of accepting applications, they were just under half subscribed. I'm not sure what the business plan calls for so that might be right on target, or ahead or behind.

I also heard, and have seen when I've been up there for club days that the track isn't exactly "full" unless you consider a couple of Miatas and a Ferrari circulating "full".

Time will tell, but I have a sneaking feeling that Skip is on edge of his seat these days.

Add to that the difficulty in attracting pro races, due to the dearth of easy and affordable hotels and eating establishments, and the relative difficulty in getting there. NJMP seems to have snatched some big dates away.

I love the place, but I am scratching my head wondering if Skip is pricing himself out of the market in the long term. I think this year will be a barometer.

[StephenB]

[QUOTE=lateapex911;286631]
i agree with Dick and Andy, the test/race deal is a good one. The test day is cheaper than Lime Rock charges, will be run better, and will be longer. Trust me on this if you've never tested at Lime Rock. AND, you won't have to schlep the trailer home Tuesday night, just to schlep back Friday night.

More convenient, more track time, less towing costs and cheaper = winner.

[QUOTE]

I 100% agree with that! I hated towing back and fourth with a 3.5HR 1 way trip to do a test day! I am still a bit suprised at the 2 day cost, although I agree you probably will get much more track time due to only 4 run groups. Not going back and reading the supps I would assume at least 4 20min. sessions, instead of just the 2 18min. ones we normally would get.

I certainly support the "out of box" creative ideas that the regions are trying so that we can continue to have and support LRP SCCA events. I will unfourtunatly not be able to support you financially by attending any events other than the PRO-IT as it is simply beyond my budget and I can't justify the cost to my wife, or myself. In reality if I was just going racing for a weekend I would trade this race for a race at the glen, summmit, or VIR. The cost in the end is still similar with the extra towing costs, and a little less track time. Again at no fault of the region, I understand the risk and cost to run the event at LRP. I just don't see anything that makes LRP more attractive other than the commute for me.

Admitaly as an outsider and someone that is not "in the business" (I am only a consumer, which like all consumers makes me think I know what is best :rolleyes: ) I don't understand the concept that LRP is trying to achieve. I do not think that the smaller clubs and limited pro-events will support the track long term with other venues slowly popping up. But again I am only a consumer and in the end I have no idea how to "run/Manage" a successfull track.

I wish LRP the best and just to clarify... Thanks for pointing out the justification and idea behind the $515 entry fee. I support the regions for their efforts a I personally would not be upset if we limited the SCCA events to 1 race per year just so I can get my yearly LRP addiction taken care of!

Stephen

[Robert Zecca]

Guys,

Everyone is absolutely correct about costs at LRP. Thank you for spelling that out. The bottom line is LRP is a racers track, has history and most people love the place. Other places have zero character. The price is really not that high but I understand things are tough for some. Other clubs go there and pay the price no problem.

What we need to do is grow our sport, grow entrants and then costs can come down. We can talk all we want on this forum and others but lets try getting people involved. Look at SCCA years ago, there was no NASA, BMW or Porsche club racing. I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk. Why are these guys running with these clubs BECAUSE WE BLEW IT YEARS AGO. We as SCCA NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB AND WILL HAVE TO CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE OR WE WILL BE IN THE SAME BOAT. The more participants the more costs will go down. No easy solution but it can be done.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

[Andy Bettencourt]

Someone needs to examine 'the good ole' days. Was there SEVENTEEN points paying races for the NARRC Championship?

We need LESS EVENTS. We are diluting the customer base. We have more people racing but less racers per event. Tighten up supply and demand for individual races will grow. LRP can survive with the SCCA but not with 14 other events in the same year.

It hurts to give up something that we love but if 250 show up at LRP in 2010 because they only have 2 chances to go, that's better, no?

[lateapex911]

I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk. Why are these guys running with these clubs BECAUSE WE BLEW IT YEARS AGO. We as SCCA NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB AND WILL HAVE TO CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE OR WE WILL BE IN THE SAME BOAT. The more participants the more costs will go down. No easy solution but it can be done.

Sincerely,
Bob Zecca

Bob...I think that it's not entirely SCCAs fault. Sure, we have room for improvement, but there's more to it than that.

Quick story- my girlfriend was on a plane, and sat next to a guy..they chatted, and it came up that he was a Porsche owner and she learned he raced. She came back with all his info, and said it was odd that he got quiet when she asked how he did. Well, the race he said he had done the month previous was at Lime Rock, but it was October. We know PCACVR runs their LRP race in April, he didn't actually race..he did DEs. That's not the first time I've heard that, i've run into it myself. I know a couple guys who say they're "going racing" to their pals, but it's a DE.

We are seeing the marque clubs prosper because they cater to a very narrow audience. Guys who want to do DEs with other same marque guys, or guys who want to race against the same car, or one very similar. Lots of classes, lots of trophies. A 13/13 rule to protect the investment. A friend who runs PCA races avises me on my Porsche research and chukles when I remind him I won't do his "cheat" suggestion. I get the impression things are a little loose ruleswise there.

So the marque clubs are serving an audience that doesn't like the multi marque, strict rules adherance and hard racing approach of the SCCA.

Different markets. I know many of those guys just wouldn't enter an SCCA race in a zillion years, no matter what we do.

Agreed though, we can do better, and i applaud your and NNJRs efforts in that regard.

[gran racing]

We need LESS EVENTS.

I agree but the politics of this is gonna be tough. Which region give the date(s) up? In the past (maybe now still?) I thought it was odd that multiple regions host events at the same track versus one group is responsible for organizing events at one specific track.


What we need to do is grow our sport, grow entrants and then costs can come down. We can talk all we want on this forum and others but lets try getting people involved. Look at SCCA years ago, there was no NASA, BMW or Porsche club racing. I was at Lime Rock this weekend and saw about 110 Porsches worth $40-160K and no junk.

I'm not so sure people racing $40 - 160K Porsches are overly concerned with a $515 2 day event versus $415. That also goes to support the different markets theory Jake stated.

I still think one weak spot for SCCA is the often transition from Solo > PDX (umm...) > Club Racing. I totally understand the reasoning for bailing on doing the PDX that Friday before the race but at some point, SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.

[anthony1k]

Kudos to the region for trying something new this year. $225 for a T&T day is a bargain. Even SP is higher than that.

As far as the high race entry fee, we are talking maybe $50-75 more than other tracks. This is less than half a tire or a couple of sessions on race fuel. I know times are tough and racing is an expensive sport. But if the extra $75 is going to put a dent on someone's family budget, maybe racing is the wrong activity to be involved in.

I give a lot of credit to Skip for keeping the track going in such an inhospitable environment. It will be a sad to see it go the way of Bridgehampton.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I agree but the politics of this is gonna be tough. Which region give the date(s) up? In the past (maybe now still?) I thought it was odd that multiple regions host events at the same track versus one group is responsible for organizing events at one specific track.

There is a lot of history there Dave, but the bottom line is NER owns the rights to LRP. NER, due to the kindness of their heart, :D decided years ago to let other regions use some of the LRP dates. (I am grossly oversimplifiying this). With that said you are also 100% correct that the politics here will/woudl be ugly.

[rsx858]

SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.

I agree our pdx program needs to be utilized... Yes PDX's are cheap and offer a lot of classroom instruction but frankly they dont compare to track days like PDA / SCDA with gobs of track time which is what most entrants are looking for. Having a PDX run group in conjunction with a regional is an exellent way to grow the club racing program.. get them running with scca early and hopefully they stick with the club..

I remember when i was first starting out I ran all my track days with nasa/pda because they had lots of dates and lots of track time...PDX's are scarce.

Repeated Classroom sessions are important for learning drivers, however lots of guys who are nearing the jump to club racing are experienced track day guys who like i said are mostly interested in track time... PDX just does not appeal to them when they can get double the time somewhere else.

[BruceG]

Watched a 914/6 last Friday go down the front straight past the emergency shack at LRP on fire like a comet! Went down the access road and they put him out. Blew some pistons and slammed the con rods into Skip's new pavement!

Then they tell their friends that they do some hot racing...LOL

[Andy Bettencourt]

There is a lot of history there Dave, but the bottom line is NER owns the rights to LRP. NER, due to the kindness of their heart, :D decided years ago to let other regions use some of the LRP dates. (I am grossly oversimplifiying this). With that said you are also 100% correct that the politics here will/woudl be ugly.

I am going to disagree here - slightly. MoHud and NNJ would probably GLADLY stop hosting LRP - because they actually risk the Regions financial LIFE in doing so. NER can take a hit every now and then but that can only happen so often. The one who would be really sour would be NYR - they have hosted the NARRC Runoff weekend for as long as I can remember - but like you said - because NER lets them.

If I were King in NER, I would tell the other regions that I was taking 2 weekends. The May school and single - and the NARRC Runoffs. If either of them wanted to risk finacial suicide by taking the June race, go for it - but I am still convinced that we need LESS EVENTS. Bring the NARRC series down to 12 and if that isn't enough racin' for you, grab a ProIT, NYSRRC, or NERRC event to fill your needs. 17 events at 6 tracks is just watering down a great product.

[Rabbit05]

my 2 cents...

If its more car counts you are looking for, you need to lower the cost of the entry fees.

I can't tell you how many guys I have talked to, or that love road racing , or, do auto crosses ,go and spectate, or all of the above . I tell them I did this at one point, everything seems feasable to them, UNTILL, I tell them it's $300 - $400 dollar just to get in the race..and they are more suprised when I tell them there is no purse , its all just for a plastic trophy. (and the for fun of racing)

I know some things are out of the SCCA's hands....but it is a deterant for me now to try to get back into it. IE, If you are just doing the saturday race $290 for MAYBE 30 minutes of track time. ( ~$100.oo per ten minutes)


What would happen if you made the Lime Rock race say $150 per car.....how many guys, from say the DC region...Penn...or even Ohio would come out for that ? Thats just the IT crowd we are talking about too...what about the other 5-6 groups per weekend?


-John

[raffaelli]

I still think one weak spot for SCCA is the often transition from Solo > PDX (umm...) > Club Racing. I totally understand the reasoning for bailing on doing the PDX that Friday before the race but at some point, SCCA as a whole needs to figure a way to get people into the sport and better utilize the PDX program. Maybe that means having one run group in a restricted regional (NHMS as an example, eliminate National elgible open wheel cars or at least combine groups) for PDX drivers. Or partner with existing DE organizations such as SCDA. Gotta give people a taste of the racing crack to get them hooked.


Speaking first hand from experience, this works. After pitting next to race cars with my street car while doing a very limited DE during a MoHud regional in July several years ago at LRP...search for a race car started the next day.

[Andy Bettencourt]

my 2 cents...

If its more car counts you are looking for, you need to lower the cost of the entry fees.


-John

It's a risk that could wipe out a Region. At $400 per car, you need 175 cars to cover $70K. At $150 per car, you need 466 cars. Guess what? That's 58 cars per run group in an 8 run group day. Impossible. Can't do it.

So if you MAX out each run group at a 'waivered' 42 cars, that is 336 cars. $208 each. Again, it's unlikely you could get more than 300 cars to an event. Say you did: $235 each would cover it.

Is THAT enough of an incentive to blow the lid off the entry packet?

Remember, Regions only charge what they NEED to, based on a forecast, to cover costs. Less money equals more demand for sure, but can it get low enough to accomplish what you are thinking? Not sure.

[gran racing]

Matt, I think there should be different stages within SCCA's PDX program. One stage focuses on people totally new to track days. Another for more experienced drivers with a focus on lots of track time. Why can't it compare to PDA & SCDA in this respect? Then one focused on people interested in doing the w2w thing. That last stage might mean incorporate sessions in the standard PDX event, and some during a race weekend where the focus is on learning the ropes of racing. The NER is trying to start a mentor program, incorporate this. I recognize this would take a commitment by regions to complete. Don't want the risk of renting a track and not have enough people pay for it? Don't want to worry about volunteers and a different type of marketing? Have you seen how many events SCDA is hosting this upcoming year? Maybe buy one SCCA run group from them at various events? There are also several other DE programs out there where something similar might be possible.

[Rabbit05]

It's a risk that could wipe out a Region. At $400 per car, you need 175 cars to cover $70K. At $150 per car, you need 466 cars. Guess what? That's 58 cars per run group in an 8 run group day. Impossible. Can't do it.

So if you MAX out each run group at a 'waivered' 42 cars, that is 336 cars. $208 each. Again, it's unlikely you could get more than 300 cars to an event. Say you did: $235 each would cover it.

Is THAT enough of an incentive to blow the lid off the entry packet?

Remember, Regions only charge what they NEED to, based on a forecast, to cover costs. Less money equals more demand for sure, but can it get low enough to accomplish what you are thinking? Not sure.

Andy,
This is why I previously stated that I know that some of it is out of the SCCA's hands. I know the regions have to charge what they need to rent the track and all that .

I guess I look at things in to simple of a manner....

you want more cars to show = lower the cost of racing

How many guys are mothballing their cars because they can't afford to go to the track ? And ,I read up in the thread before about how somebody stated that "if they cant affiord it ,they shouldnt be racing anyways,"...or something to that effect. That is clarly not the way to approach trying to "un Grey the SCCA".

As far as the Lime Rock ordeal , well, people keep buying what they are selling. So why should LRP stop ? Maybe it is time for the SCCA ,in its entirety, not go to Lime Rock ?

-John

[rsx858]

Dave you bring up some interesting ideas, Definitley for starters we need to alter our current format which only aims towards track day newbies.

A partnership with an established track day organization is an idea though i wonder if the mighty SCCA would feel it to be necesarry. And indeed it may not be.. maybe we just need to provide advanced run groups as you mentioned.

I know one thing is for sure, we need to market our products better. By that i mean posting on forums and all that stuff. Sometimes i have trouble finding info... seems like scca has 10,000 websites. one for this series one for that series one for this region one for that division..... pain in the butt.

[lateapex911]

John, so it costs $290 to race...so what? If it cost a more reasonable $225, would that make it now workable? $65 less? That's a drop in the bucket in the big scheme of things.

Sure, you can race cheaper. Roundy round stuff will save bucks. But have you ever been to one? How they remain in business without getting their asses sued from here to the moon and back is a mystery. The cars are pure garbage, roll cages made of fence posts, and nobdy seemed to mind if I was standing at the exit of a corner with nothing seperating me from a 120MPH modified other than the low wall. :shrug:

Roadracing, for some reason, has higher standards, and we pay for them.

Lime Rock is an awesome track, full of subtlety. It's not easy to go fast there, and I'm reminded by others that it's a track that makes many very nervous. It's one of the most beautiful tracks in America, and is loaded with history. Not all of that matters to some, but it does to many. And it is a track that races well.
But, because of it's unique "in town" location, there are real constraints to making an event work. No Sundays. Limited unmuffled dates. Short hours. mandatory quiet times. And our form of racing (as opposed to track days or 13/13 clubs) means we pay higher rent.

For some like me, it's well worth the extra $65 (as an example), to race on a great track thats challenging and enjoyable and so close to home. (I can't figure out WHY Skip was losing so much money before, but I begrudgingly "get" that we will pay what the market will bear)

And, you can feel free to not attend and vote with your dollars in order to make your point. You have lots of choices. As for me, I'll take Lime Rock 10 times to none over Pocono....even if Pocono charges $100.

[Rabbit05]

Jake,
I love Lime Rock , I know it's fast and its FUN ! And I know how to lose a car there too.

But to say " Bah $65 is nothing !!! " ...that's food for the weekend for me...hey how about race fuel ? ...almost half a race tire.

It helps in the small scheme of things...

Thats all I am saying....now if you excuse me I have to go plant my money tree.

-John

[BruceG]

I think we all can agree that any increase in fees hurts in these tough economic times. Unfortuately, vendors have cost increases, as well. The $5mil expense at LRP last year to repave and make the track smooth didn't come without a price tag for those of us who chose to race there.

As was just previously mentioned, I'd rather pay a little more to race at a great track...which is also pretty darn safe compared to NHMS.:shrug:

[lateapex911]

John, I know that $65 buys things, but in the course of a racing season, it's chump change. And I'd spend that money and more towing to ANY other track. So, for local people, it's just the way it is. (hey, I don't like it, but...I can't be too upset over it. That happened years ago when the rates went for $22K to $53K!)

In theory, NER has done the single biggest thing to lower prices. They've created competition by creating a new track. Once Palmer comes online, we'll have more choices.

[dickita15]

which is also pretty darn safe compared to NHMS.:shrug:

LRP is an epic track but you will get an argument from me on that point.

[Seabee]

The price for the test day is a bargain for the track time.

Most LRP test days start ar 12:30 to 6pm. 3 groups (open, big bore, small bore). Everyone gets 5 sessions at 20 min. Cost is 275. 250 if you call ahead 206.25 if you buy 3 get 1 free 'deal'.

Most of time it works fine although it can get crowded around certain events. And the August test usually has the Camping World cars there with their own session.

This month's test at LRP was not well attended mainly due to the weather. Rain was in the forcast so most people I knew stayed away.

If NNJR region is flexible I would suggest 3 groups as long as the car count is realistic.

BTW, WGI promotor test days are 250 and you will usually only get 3-20 min sessions.

In closing I think NNJR is trying something different and it works for me.

[StephenB]

John, I know that $65 buys things, but in the course of a racing season, it's chump change. And I'd spend that money and more towing to ANY other track. So, for local people, it's just the way it is. (hey, I don't like it, but...I can't be too upset over it. That happened years ago when the rates went for $22K to $53K!)

In theory, NER has done the single biggest thing to lower prices. They've created competition by creating a new track. Once Palmer comes online, we'll have more choices.

$515 to $235 is more than just 65 bucks. 2 days at lime rock for $235 would probably be interesting!

I still agree with Andy that I choose to race in PRO-IT rather than NARRC strictly because of the # of races in the season. (PRO-IT guys/gals please do not increase the events to more than 1 per month!) I cannot afford to run a Series that is 17 races long.

I think that Dave's Idea is great with the PDX Direction. Maybe even get the PDX people to corner work or jsut show up and let them do FREE ride arounds in street cars with racers that are racing in the event during lunches and such. I am sure some racers would do it and the PDX people would get some education on lines, and a feel for how the "feel" and "atmosphere" of SCCA by attending one of our events.

[gran racing]

John, so it costs $290 to race...so what? If it cost a more reasonable $225, would that make it now workable? $65 less? That's a drop in the bucket in the big scheme of things.

I understand what you're trying to say, but on the flip side couldn't I make the argument what's the big deal of a $355 entry fee? Hey, it's only $65 more than the $290 you mentioned isn't so bad. What about another $65 on top of that? There's a price point where racers need to say the cost outweighs the benefit.

"in the course of a race season it's chump change."

It all depends upon what one's "race season" is. For me, I'm hopeful for 5 events - six if I'm super lucky. $65 per event does impact the outcome. I'd be more than happy to be a chump and take your change. :) And then sometimes traveling isn't such a bad thing and nice way to sell it to the family. Labor Day Summit Point = DC trip for wife, kid, and friend(s).