Enduro sup. reg. standardization?

[rsportvolvo]

I'm trying to get a handle on enduro supplimental regulations and they are similar, but not the same. Is there a push to get standardized enduro regulations? I know that different organizations run the events, but it would be nice to have a standard set of regulations.

Heck they could even have an endurance series. With a finale race!

[dickita15]

In the North East some work was done in having as series, the NESCCA Enduro series, and some rule standardization was done but it is difficult. A 3 hour has a different set of problems than a 12 hour. Pit lanes vary from track to track and have different needs for rules.

[Knestis]

Some of us have been involved in conversations about this over the past 4 years or so but there's no real authority to which responsibility falls, across regions. Every region - more precisely, the people in every region - have slightly different views on some issues, that may or may not be track-specific.

There have been recent attempts at enduro series as well, none of which took off pretty much for the same reason.

What has NOT been tried, so far as I know, is to propose to SCCA Club Racing that they should do a top-down enduro rules consolidation effort.

K

[callard]

Some safety related items regarding fueling and pit stops are being drafted and Terry Ozment will be taking them to the CRB soon. As Kirk points out, different length races have different rules. What will wind up in the GCR will be the overarching safety items. Supps will apply for the type of enduro (short vs. long).
Regards,
Chuck

[jimmyc]

Some safety related items regarding fueling and pit stops are being drafted and Terry Ozment will be taking them to the CRB soon. As Kirk points out, different length races have different rules. What will wind up in the GCR will be the overarching safety items. Supps will apply for the type of enduro (short vs. long).
Regards,
Chuck

care to explain further the bolded part above? I can't think of what different length races would have different rules??

[Greg Amy]

Chuck, is there any chance we can have some input into these rules? One safety-related rule that I've brought to the attention of organizers numerous times is night time headlight width.

As street drivers we've been programmed into correlating distance-between-headlights with distance-behind-us. The narrower the distance between headlights, the "farther away" the preceding car is. Unfortunately, many enduro cars have auxiliary headlights installed that are very close together; two common examples are Spec Racers that mount driving lights over their heads on the narrow roll hoop, and Spec Miatas that mount driving light on the center of the nose and can't raise their normal headlamps.

I've personally witnessed - and have almost been involved in - many an avoidable crash where one of these vehicles with narrow headlights dives into a corner under a slower car, only to have that slower car turn into them. The reason these incidents happen is because the cars with the narrower headlights "appear" farther away, and as the leading car looks up to see who's coming before turn-in has no idea that the faster car behind them is only a few car lengths back.

Of course, there's a simple answer to this: specify a minimum distance between headlamps. This number doesn't necessarily have to be random; the distance between a pair of Spec Miata headlamps would work perfectly fine, which would require SM drivers to design their system such that they can raise their stock headlamps (with those big aux lights hanging out there in the breeze it won't add THAT much drag...) The Spec Racers would just need to widen out their lamp mounting brackets a bit - and I suggest that if they've noticed a lot of guys turning into them at night, it might be a good idea to do it anyway, even without a rule.

And, the rules can be flexible enough such that if one of the two lamps goes out, then one is fine; I know that if I have a car coming up on me with only one lamp I'm especially careful and rarely surprised

Food for thought, but this is my #1 pet peeve about endurance racing equipment. - GA

[Knestis]

It is good news that the Board is thinking about this but equally, it concerns me if the draft is being done without substantive input from folks used to actually running club enduros. I'd like to know more, too.

K

[Hahn63]

Greg, almost all of the time you bring up very good items. But this one please tell me your joking.

All I have tried over the past couple of years to get some agreement from all the enduro events and we are a lot closer to each other than ever before.

I caution everyone to not get wording in the GCR. Once it is in there it will be a lot harder to change. Saftey is important but the enduro community as a whole has had a very good record when it comes down to it for what we do.

Fire away all!

[Hahn63]

It is good news that the Board is thinking about this but equally, it concerns me if the draft is being done without substantive input from folks used to actually running club enduros. I'd like to know more, too.

K


I agree. We need to be very careful not to paint ourselves in a corner. Everyone in the enduro community needs to be involved!

[Greg Amy]

Greg, almost all of the time you bring up very good items. But this one please tell me your joking.
I infer your disagreement is with the idea of GCR rules in general, versus the specific example I offer above? Fine, I hear you. But the problem is that without some kind of centralized intervention there's just about zero chance of standardization (everybody wants to do it their own way, in a vacuum).

And I hear you wanting to offer input, regardless. Keep in mind this is the first time any of us - me, especially - have heard anything about any movement toward national standardization...

[Hahn63]

Um Greg, sorry, but I was refering to your headlight statement. I know I know ...i just lit another fuse. Dude, we can't even get them to put numbers on right and you want headlights spaced? Ah nope! FYI I want my pencial beams right next to each other...old rally guys never give up on lights!

[Greg Amy]

Um Greg, sorry, but I was refering to your headlight statement. I know I know ...i just lit another fuse.
:shrug: All I know is, a Pablo rear bumper and/or rear wheel/tire is a lot sturdier - and probably costs a lot less - than Spec Racer bodywork... - GA

[Hahn63]

I hear you loud and clear. Guess they won't do that again! Maybe the sun is spaced wrong too cause it happens during the day as well! :)

[Hahn63]

FYI to all enduro guys. The ECS is not dead...just for this year with this crappy economy. I am working with a lot of folks to bring it back in 2010. If you would like to add input to what you would like to see in such a series my email is always open! [email protected]

[dickita15]

care to explain further the bolded part above? I can't think of what different length races would have different rules??

For instance at a 3 hour enduro at nhms most of the participants are casual enduro people or novices at longer races so there is a minimum time for refueling. The crews are not practiced and the cars are not modified for quick safe fueling. A minimum time rule allows the team not to rush so it is safer for the pick-up crews involved.
On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

[Knestis]

For instance at a 3 hour enduro at nhms most of the participants are casual enduro people or novices at longer races so there is a minimum time for refueling. The crews are not practiced and the cars are not modified for quick safe fueling. A minimum time rule allows the team not to rush so it is safer for the pick-up crews involved.
On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

[jimmyc]

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

couldn't agree more.

I have participated in a lot of enduros, from 2.5 to 25 hours in length. And i can't see ANY reason to require/have different rules as far as safety is concerned.

[rsportvolvo]

I would like to see standardization on:

Fuel tank capacity
General fueling safety and methods
Lighting requirements
Pit stop requirements
Jacking requirements (jacking plates or air jacks)

I would think that these supplemental regulations could easily be plagarized from IMSA or Grand-Am. Probably Grand-Am's Koni Challenge as our IT cars are similarly prepped.

[callard]

Back in 2006 we went through a session on this forum regarding enduro rules based on a presentation posted on the NESCCA website. There was a lot of input on what folks thought should be included. Some comments were safety related, some were performance advantages pretending to be safety issues. Some were esoteric.
The approach in the GCR should be a minimal set of SAFETY related items for fueling and pit stops and would be applicable for any length enduro. If we try to get too deep into other areas, nothing will happen. This is a first step.
Many of you have a lot of endurance racing experience and have valid comments and opinions but we need to focus first on the area of most risk.
Regards,
Chuck

[jjjanos]

On the other hand at the summit 12 hour the teams are more practiced and pit work is part of the contest so different rules apply.

That's a very charitable way to describe it. It's also very inaccurate. The majority of teams are inexperienced or whose experience is little more than the one or two longer enduros.


This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

At this year's Summit Supp meeting, I tried to either get rid of the minimum limit or increase so that it actually encouraged safety. IMO, the current limit doesn't mean anything to teams with dry-break systems (the car is full before the limit has expired) and encourages teams without the dry breaks to rush. My view was that if the limit was in-place to encourage careful, safe refueling, then the limit should be set with that in mind and if it was set to diminish the advantage of dry-breaks, then it should go away.


I have participated in a lot of enduros, from 2.5 to 25 hours in length. And i can't see ANY reason to require/have different rules as far as safety is concerned.

Size of the pit lane - i.e. a roval or a 1960s-era road course? If you are dealing with 40-foot pit boxes rules don't need to be as strict as when dealing with Summit Point-sized boxes. In the former, staging equipment and crew is less dangerous than in the cramped confines of Summit Point.

What kind of barrier is there between the pitlane and the crew staging area? Is it a concrete wall (ala rovals/professional courses) that will keep burning fuel from getting into the staging area or is it a single strand of armco (see Summit Point) that would allow burning fuel to run into the area normally used for gridding cars (and where teams are staged for the enduro)?


I would like to see standardization on:
jacking requirements (jacking plates or air jacks)

We have standardization on this - see the class rules. IT cars cannot have either unless they came standard on the car.

[jimmyc]

Size of the pit lane - i.e. a roval or a 1960s-era road course? If you are dealing with 40-foot pit boxes rules don't need to be as strict as when dealing with Summit Point-sized boxes. In the former, staging equipment and crew is less dangerous than in the cramped confines of Summit Point.

What kind of barrier is there between the pitlane and the crew staging area? Is it a concrete wall (ala rovals/professional courses) that will keep burning fuel from getting into the staging area or is it a single strand of armco (see Summit Point) that would allow burning fuel to run into the area normally used for gridding cars (and where teams are staged for the enduro)?




We have managed to cram 70 cars into a pit lane that is very short and has very small pit boxes. And then with the same set of rules went and ran at places like daytona, Homestead ect with huge pit lanes and pit boxes.

As far as the barrier thing, whats your point? No matter WHAT your rules are people can still spill fuel and start a fire. Make fuel spills a BIG penalty, beyond that you can't do anything really.

You are trying to fix/make it hard for people to screw up. And you can't do that.

I have done more then 45 fuel stops with a regular old 5 gallon gas can never have spilt ANY fuel doing it. Yet dry break systems have been shown to fail and fires can start.

[MMiskoe]

If Topeka get's their hand in it we the racers might not like the result. What about having a list of standard items to be included in the sup's? Those writing the sup's can provide a clear set of rules would have a checklist to refer to. They might be different from the last race, but would at least cover all the bases.

People will make mistakes fueling no matter how good the system. Cripe, look at how many fires happen and fuel hoses get dragged down F1 pit lanes. And those guys are supposed to be the very best! There is no answer that will work across the board.

Greg - I've heard your light spacing comment before and usually you have good ideas on how to do stuff, but I think you're smoking on this one. Light spacing is only one part of the equation and would be difficult to engineer and enforce.

Matt

[jjjanos]

We have managed to cram 70 cars into a pit lane that is very short and has very small pit boxes. And then with the same set of rules went and ran at places like daytona, Homestead ect with huge pit lanes and pit boxes.

Exactly. The rules for the former were overkill for the latter. Therefore, there would be a reason to change the safety rules based on the venue.


As far as the barrier thing, whats your point? No matter WHAT your rules are people can still spill fuel and start a fire. Make fuel spills a BIG penalty, beyond that you can't do anything really.

A barrier that functions as a dam does not allow burning fuel to run into the non-traffic side of the pits. A barrier like Summit's does allow this. Rules that impose a sufficient level of safety at Pocono may not do that for Summit. Therefore, there would be a reasxon to change the safety rules based on the venue.

Moreover, the safety rules are not just to reduce the likelihood of a bad event. The safety rules need to mitigate the damage that occurs when there is a bad event. Using your logic, the penalty for rolling a car should be severe (and beyond destroying the car, say a 5-year suspension of license). With that penalty in place, we can do away with the requirement for rollbars because "... you can't do anything really."


You are trying to fix/make it hard for people to screw up. And you can't do that.

No - it's about mitigating the damage when they screw up. There's a reason why many professional series require EVERYONE in the pit boxes, on both sides of the wall, to be in nomex. If Topeka gets its hands on the rules, the should be prepared to put everyone in the hot pits in nomex because the legal types are going to demand it.


I have done more then 45 fuel stops with a regular old 5 gallon gas can never have spilt ANY fuel doing it. Yet dry break systems have been shown to fail and fires can start.

Point? I never said cans or dry break were better a/o safer. I said dry break systems tend to be quicker.

[krysdean]

We have been running Enduro's in SEDIV for several years and we have a set of rules specific to the ECR series that are applied accross the Divison. I am no implying that our rules should be the benchmark,but you are welcome to review them to see what has worked for us. Most of our enduro's are 90 minutes, but these rules work for the longer enduro's, including the 12 hour we used to do at Homestead. Again, I am not suggesting that the ECR rules should simply be adopted, but rather used as a tool to begin setting up a set of rules that you can live with.

Feel free to look them over at:

http://www.sedivecr.com/

Krys Dean

[callard]

Enduro rules genesis:
The Nelson Ledges Longest Day 24 hour rules were refined over 17 iterations.
The DC Region used these as the basis for their 1.5 then 4, 6 and 12 hour rules starting in 1993.
These DC rules were shared with New England Region as the basis for the NEDiv short enduros around 1998. These rules were also shared with Central Florida Region as the basis for their Longest Night 24 hour races at Moroso circa 1997 and with North Carolina Region as the basis for their 13 hour race a bit later. I am unsure how the west coast NASA 25 hour race rules evolved.
Each of these east coast Regions made some changes to the original rules set based on local conditions and sometimes personal preferences.
Ultimately, today an east coast team must have different execution strategies based on which race is entered under the differing rules sets. It's time to standardize the safety related rules and get them in the GCR (e.g. fire bottle pin in or pin out, grounding, clothing, fueling, etc.). These are the things that should be in the GCR. When and how to work on cars, how to time pit stops, how to equip cars, etc. should be left to the supps. They, for the most part, are already addressed by the individual series rules but there are some differences that should be standardized.
Regards,
Chuck

[jimmyc]

Exactly. The rules for the former were overkill for the latter. Therefore, there would be a reason to change the safety rules based on the venue.



A barrier that functions as a dam does not allow burning fuel to run into the non-traffic side of the pits. A barrier like Summit's does allow this. Rules that impose a sufficient level of safety at Pocono may not do that for Summit. Therefore, there would be a reasxon to change the safety rules based on the venue.

Moreover, the safety rules are not just to reduce the likelihood of a bad event. The safety rules need to mitigate the damage that occurs when there is a bad event. Using your logic, the penalty for rolling a car should be severe (and beyond destroying the car, say a 5-year suspension of license). With that penalty in place, we can do away with the requirement for rollbars because "... you can't do anything really."



No - it's about mitigating the damage when they screw up. There's a reason why many professional series require EVERYONE in the pit boxes, on both sides of the wall, to be in nomex. If Topeka gets its hands on the rules, the should be prepared to put everyone in the hot pits in nomex because the legal types are going to demand it.



Point? I never said cans or dry break were better a/o safer. I said dry break systems tend to be quicker.


No the rules weren't really written for either, the series i am speaking of is GARRA Koni Challenge.

Garra KC ONLY requires the people handling the fuel to be wearing nomex. The Fueler and the fire bottle guy are the only two, not even the dead man has to be wearing it.

ALMS doesn't require every one to wear nomex on both sides of the wall either, same with NASCAR.

Which professional series are you referring to then?

On the roll over thing, that is NOT a very good example. The fuel thing is much different. Nice try though..

[Knestis]

... Light spacing is only one part of the equation and would be difficult to engineer and enforce.

Matt

I disagree. After talking w/Greg about the a couple of years ago, I tried to be very cognizant of HOW I was judging distances (and change in time, or closing speeds) of cars in my mirrors. That measure is a HUGE factor.

And policing requires, uh... A measuring tape. The important distance is that between the widest-spaced lenses. And I'm not going to have a hernia over dead bulbs. We can only do so much.

K

[jjjanos]

No the rules weren't really written for either, the series i am speaking of is GARRA Koni Challenge.

Doesn't matter if they were written for either. The minimum level of safety for a 50-year old pit lane isn't the same as for a super speedway. If a single set of rules is used for both, then either the 50-year old track is under "protected" or the super speedway is over "protected."

Think rollcage rules - club racing cars require them. Autocross cars don't. If the SCCA used a single set of cage rules for club and autocross... one will have too much cage and/or the other will have too little.

Which professional series are you referring to then?

The defunct CART/CCWS series and, I believe the IRL. At least that was the case in CART when worked their races... if you were in the box, you wore nomex. Outside the box, but in the pit lane street clothes were OK.


On the roll over thing, that is NOT a very good example. The fuel thing is much different. Nice try though..

NO, it's exactly the same thing. You think that you can legislate away an "accident" and it cannot be done. Safety rules can limit the probability of a particular accident occuring, but their main function is limiting the damage when the outcome occurs.

Fuel cells reduce the likelihood of a fire. Fire suits reduce the damage that occurs when there is a fire. Outlawing spills doesn't prevent spills, period.

[Cobrar05]

This is an example on which reasonable people may differ.

If the issue is "unsafe practices" then punish those who are unsafe, rather than imposing artificial time constraints. The latter takes our collective eye off the ball, and leaves the pit stop observer looking at a stopwatch rather than at whatever goofy thing the crew might be doing. And it's THAT THING that's going to start a fire: Not the time they do or don't take to do it.

People inclined to be sloppy or inattentive will do so whether they are doing it quickly or slowly.

K

Ive been reading this thread with the idea there are two different conversations going on here. Knestis falls into "the 3 hour enduro is a long sprint race, not an enduro" catagory and the enduro series he is thinking of would be 12 to 24 hour races, not the 90 minutes and 3 hour races that the ECR runs in SEDiv.

I would support a 12 race series(one a month if practicable) with 3 races of 12 to 24 hour lenth and the rest of the 3 hour variety run at our favorite tracks. I prefer to race where there is car count to support the race than wait for enough car count to have a race.

On the other hand if you are going to run a regional style enduro you have to be comfortable running their rules. timed pit stops and all.

[Knestis]

EDIT - Irrespective of race length...

My point is that if a rule is ostensibly about safety (e.g., the pit stop minimum length) REALLY make it about safety. I frankly think that in many cases, the rules that get wrapped in safety rationale are about handicapping - or removing the advantage from - teams that are better equipped for enduros.

If the rules writers want to make me sit there for minutes after using my fast dry break (11 gallons in less than 6 seconds) to help the guy with Jerry cans and an unleaded restrictor, fine - but they should say that's what the rule is intended to do.

If the issue is "people doing dangerous things while refueling," then they should write the rule to punish dangerous behavior, NOT the hardware with which a car/team is equipped. I could do some very flammable things with my dump cans, and have demonstrated that we can do relatively quick, spill-free stops with red jugs - Conover Motorsport spec red jugs, anyway...

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/dumpcan.jpg

K

[jimmyc]

Doesn't matter if they were written for either. The minimum level of safety for a 50-year old pit lane isn't the same as for a super speedway. If a single set of rules is used for both, then either the 50-year old track is under "protected" or the super speedway is over "protected."




I will say it again IT DOES'T MATTER were the race is. YOU CAN SAFELY use the same set of rules.

I don't care if the track is Euro style with NO pit wall, you can still use the same set of rules.

If you are worried about the people on the other side of the wall you are the ONLY person worried about it.

But you go ahead and keep pounding your drum, about nothing.

Didn't CART use Methanol?

[dickita15]

If the rules writers want to make me sit there for minutes after using my fast dry break (11 gallons in less than 6 seconds) to help the guy with Jerry cans and an unleaded restrictor, fine - but they should say that's what the rule is intended to do.
K

Yes you are right Kirk, it is partially about handicapping or said another way trying to draw people into trying longer races without having to make the equipment investment that hardcore experienced team like your have developed.

[callard]

Hold on there Dick. Just because someone has a dry break set up now, it doesn't mean that he started on day one with one. Many of us started small. After a few events, we began to get better at certain things and invested in technology where we saw an advantage. There has never been a level playing field in enduro racing. Today's rules let you start out with a minimum investment (oxymoron) in the longer races and you also have the capability of improving safety while gaining a refueling advantage. Don't legislate that away. O, next we'll all be forced to run on Sears tires cuz some race tires are more expensive than others and give you a lap time advantage.
Regards,
Chuck

[dickita15]

Chuck, never said I was taking sides buddy, but I was trying to flesh out the thinking for the other side of Kirk’s position. I am not sure which is right but as a state’s rights guy I think regions should be able to tailor to what the locals want.

[callard]

This past weekend, I attended the Marlboro reunion at the Jefferson 500 being held at Summit Point. The Regional historian had tons of memorabilia on display and lots of video of the old FIA sanctioned 12 hour races at Marlboro in the '60s. There were multiple videos of pit stops. The car would screech to a halt in the tiny pits, and the driver would start climbing out. A crew member would flip open the Monza filler cap, put in a very large mouthed funnel and several crew members would begin pouring from 5 gallon steel jugs at the same time. My eyes bugged out as I saw gallons of gas being spilled all over the cars, into the cockpits and in some cases, all over the drivers. Someone would throw a bucket of water and off they would go. Nary a dry break or overhead fuel rig in sight. We've come a long way baybee!

No real point guys, I just thought you'd appreciate the story.
Regards,
Chuck