Honda Civic 92-95 advice : add-ons

[mossaidis]

It's nice to know I have a tax rebate coming.... :) I finished midpack at NHMS and I am looking to upgrade parts before LRP or perhaps 5/9 POC.

1) Tires; I have 2 year old Toyos mounted now - I am thinking SM6, 225/50 Toyo's or 225/45 R6. I would consider the GYs but I can't seem to find prices online (I probably need to call around). Does anyone have prices on new AB special GYs?

2) FD; 4.7, 4.9 or 5.1? I currently have the stock 4.25 FD. Something new from Mfactory would do nice. So, my question is how fast do you ITA boys run at the end of the straights at LRP (before Big bend) and WGI (before the bus stop)?

3) Airdam; I thought a ordered an airdam from Roadracegear.com - but though some oddities including ownership transfers I have not heard anything or gotten anything from those guys. Does anyone have a reputitable airdam fab company that makes an IT legal airdam for EG civic (92-95)? or am I stuck making one out of alum and plaster out of my garage?

Peace,
Mickey

[bonespec]

Don't forget Gear-X also for the a 4.7 or 4.9 FD, I can make you a deal on them.

:eclipsee_steering:

[dickita15]

track time

[mossaidis]

Don't forget Gear-X also for the a 4.7 or 4.9 FD, I can make you a deal on them.

:eclipsee_steering:

I have heard good things about Gear-X as well. Need to make a decision on ratio... hmmm. Any guys from the northeast want to charm in on their speeds before the end of the busstop at WGI, the chicane at POC and big bend at LRP?

[mossaidis]

track time

I'm already ahead of you. :) I am for scheduled 8-9 NARRC events in my first year! Plus I have 25 days on the resume already (it's NOT alot but it's something...) I need PARTS/TIRES for more car potential and NUTS so that I don't slow down when going into the south oval or the carousel at WGI. :)

[jimmyc]

this table is very helpfull only thing you have to change is the tire diameter...

http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index.php?MaxRPM=7200&TireDiameter=22.8&GearRatio1=3.25&GearRatio2=1.9&GearRatio3=1.25&GearRatio4=0.909&GearRatio5=0.75&GearRatio6=0&FinalDrive=4.7&TireWidth=225&TireAspect=45&RimDiameter=15&MaxRPM_2=7200&TireDiameter_2=22.8&GearRatio1_2=3.25&GearRatio2_2=1.9&GearRatio3_2=1.25&GearRatio4_2=0.909&GearRatio5_2=0.75&GearRatio6_2=0&FinalDrive_2=4.9&TireWidth_2=225&TireAspect_2=45&RimDiameter_2=15&Calculate=Calculate%2FGraph&Compare=1

That should help you decided on what you want/need.

FYI speed (mph) is a horrible thing to judge your speed with, stock speedo's are off a bunch and then the tires OD makes it even worse. the stock tach isn't any better put most people have an after market tach, which is the best thing to use to judge your speed.

As far as airdamns go this is the best on the market

http://www.specialprojectsms.com/index.php?productID=93

for more pictures search honda-tech.com

[Xian]

3) Airdam; I thought a ordered an airdam from Roadracegear.com - but though some oddities including ownership transfers I have not heard anything or gotten anything from those guys. Does anyone have a reputitable airdam fab company that makes an IT legal airdam for EG civic (92-95)? or am I stuck making one out of alum and plaster out of my garage?


I believe RRG is back in the hands of Blake Meredith... I believe he sold it and then eventually bought it back. He'll be at RRR this weekend but can be reached here; user id "bamfp". He does a top notch job on everything with really good customer service.

Christian

PS
From my experience a 4.7 seems like it's usually the best "all around" gear for most FWD Honda's. I know it worked fine for my EF CRX Si at everything from VIR to CMP to Road Atlanta and even at Daytona.

[bonespec]

Limited info I've gotten back, 4.7 vs 4.9 becomes a tradeoff on which corners are in "the wrong gear"....it is a tradeoff.

4.9 Civic/CRX works at ORP and Mid Ohio.

IDEALLY (deep wallet!) you should have both depending on the track and driver. But I'm sure everyone can afford a spare $2000+ tranny just to test a different FD ratio.

[Tom Blaney]

Actually if your motor is working well I have found that the 4.5 gearset is faster since you don't run out of gear in the middle of a corner especially at 2 in L/R or the downhill left at Summit

[Ed Funk]

So, it's really quite easy, you just need one of each!

[mossaidis]

Ed, you are so smart! sounds like a 4.7 is the way to go - redline (7800) in 4th will be about 122. Having a spare tranny is in the plans but until 2010-11.

Jimmyc thank you for the links! Expensive yet it looks like it's worth the money

Xian - no word from Blake on whether he could deliver an airdam - I just had to cancel my check. :(

[bonespec]

only one I trust for D series tranny gearing

http://www.zealautowerks.com/transcalc.php

Why? Because I fixed the wrong info that was copied off my 1999 webpage.

I'm flattered.....not really.

I figured out the casting codes....

[Tom Blaney]

Unfortunatly what your missing in the equation is that these motors don't make any power or torque at 7800 rpm's the torque falls off way below 7000 and the max hp is in the 6500-6800 range, so running a motor up that high will actually make you go slower. Thus the 4.5 ratio.

D Series Transmissions only need a few things to work well for a long time (assuming a street car rebuild) a) new syncro's, and bearing set, b) a Quaiffe or compatable diff., c) 4.5 4.7 ring & pinion, d) mobil 1 redcap (50wt) motor oil changed after every 3rd race.

Get the right parts for the right year gearbox and forget all the chatter about trick this or that, micro-polishing anything, and carbon fiber performance parts. Just get quaility oem compatable parts assemble it correctly and maintenance it.

[downingracing]

Unfortunatly what your missing in the equation is that these motors don't make any power or torque at 7800 rpm's the torque falls off way below 7000 and the max hp is in the 6500-6800 range, so running a motor up that high will actually make you go slower. Thus the 4.5 ratio....

My ITA built D16Z6 dyno graph would suggest that might not always be the case...

[Tom Blaney]

The 18 ITA legal D16 motors I built are the basis for the numbers. Remember your still running a stock cam, stock compression, and stock heads, so there is no justification for the extra rpm's. If your running a modified motor with more compression, breathing and modified cam than the higher rpms are warranted. Even with ecu mapping and all that it still gets down to breathing.

But who knows maybe you just have a good motor.

[mc-integra111]

Limited info I've gotten back, 4.7 vs 4.9 becomes a tradeoff on which corners are in "the wrong gear"....it is a tradeoff.

4.9 Civic/CRX works at ORP and Mid Ohio.

IDEALLY (deep wallet!) you should have both depending on the track and driver. But I'm sure everyone can afford a spare $2000+ tranny just to test a different FD ratio.

There is an easier solution now that IT rules allow cars that have 14" OEM wheel diameters to run 15". I chose a 4.929 final drive (GEAR-X). At small tracks I run my 14" wheels (225/50), while at large tracks (only Road America for me in the Midwest) I run 15" wheels (225/50). With the 15" wheels it is the equivalent of a 4.723 final drive, perfect. This is the B18A engine, so my choice may not be perfect for your application, but the idea is the same.

This did produce some fender clearance issues for me in both the front and rear, but nothing that wasn't resolved with some custom fender rolling.

[jimmyc]

I completly dissagree with Tom B.

Sounds like he is thinking of a d16a6 which is VERY different then the d16z6...

Also there is no "perfect FD", like he claims. Really it is completly track dependant which is why it is important to look at the tracks you run and figure it out from there.

For me 4.9 was amazing and worked great at the two tracks i run at. Plus, another benifit to gearing IMO, is minimizing the gear shifts. This was also accomplish for me with the 4.9.

But i could see at different tracks were the 4.7 would be better..

[downingracing]

Tom B. has a reputation for building VERY good motors. I know he knows what he is talking about. I'm guessing the 4.5 FD comment was meant as the all around best choice for running a single gearbox. I love my 4.9, but have been places where I'd rather have the 4.7 or even my OEM 4.25?... Multiple boxes would be the way to go, but this is club racing and having the 'best' choice for the tracks you run is more like what people have. I run mostly at Mid-Ohio and have found the 4.9 keeps me in 3-4-5 and I'm shifting 1/2 as many times a lap as running the stock FD.

Thanks!

Matt

[Tom Blaney]

Thanks Matt, your exactly right. Most club racers don't have a huge budget, and have to build a car for the area they race. The first CRX I had came with a 4.9, and for the tracks I ran it seemed too tight, and I would be shifting at inappropriate points on the track. I went to a 4.7 which was better but still was tight in 2 at L/R and or out of the boot at the Glen. The stock 4.2 was actually very very good at Pocono, but that was about all. When I got hooked up with the 4.5 from Gear-X it seemed to work better than the others.
Also as you indicted a lot has to do with skill, driving style, and car setup, so if you want to go as fast as you can you have to experiment not only with gears, but with wild swings of suspension settings until you find what works for you.

[jimmyc]

Tom B. has a reputation for building VERY good motors. I know he knows what he is talking about. I'm guessing the 4.5 FD comment was meant as the all around best choice for running a single gearbox. I love my 4.9, but have been places where I'd rather have the 4.7 or even my OEM 4.25?... Multiple boxes would be the way to go, but this is club racing and having the 'best' choice for the tracks you run is more like what people have. I run mostly at Mid-Ohio and have found the 4.9 keeps me in 3-4-5 and I'm shifting 1/2 as many times a lap as running the stock FD.

Thanks!

Matt
While that could very well be true, it looks like all of his experience is on a D16a6

Which is a COMPLETELY different motor then the D16z6

And then he throws out a 7800rpm limit that i didn't see any one talking about, nor is that what it is set at on the trans graph.

[mossaidis]

okay... back to our old thread to discuss FD. Readin this site is sometime like listening to my parents. I love you, but so much drama. :)

First, my tranny consists of ONLY OEM synchros, bearings and seals. I replace the shock bushings as well - most don't. The LSD is a new Quaffie (I have a deep affection for that part... uh). I use 2 parts Redline MTL and one part Redline Lightweight Shockproof every 4 track days. The oil combo seems to work fine though I have not opened the tranny in 20 track days. The clucth is an ACT 6 puck spring disc with a heavy duty clutch plate. Motul 600RBF in the clutch line which is either now solid or braided.

Second, the car has NOT been dyno'ed since I got the head shaved, port matched and installed the "tunnel dump 97 db @ 50ft" exhuast. Before these mods, the motor peaked hp at 6800 rpm - just like stock - and VTEC engagement changed from 4800 to 5100 rpm. Then why the 7800 redline? Well, mainly due to the big gap left between 2nd and 3rd gear. 1st and 2nd gear were designed to "thrust" the little civic from 0-to-60 as fast as possible. 3-5th were designed for med speed pull and high mpg. So a redline 7200 shift from 2nd to 3rd places the engine below Vtec and acceleration is sluggish until its revs to 5.5K. Push the redline to 7800 and gear shift from 2nd to 3rd places the engine at over VTEC engagement. So even though I am losing HP at the top of 2nd gear, my 3rd gear engine rev placement is soo much sweeter. FYI, before the IT mods, my shift point for all other gears was 7200.

Even when I removed the CAI to install the short AEM intake, the car pulls so much nicer after the IT mods - duh right? If I were to guess, I think peak HP is around 7200 rpm. I won't know for sure until after my next tune - probably in the spring 2010. So, my gut tells me to shift at 7200-7300 rpm except for when in 2nd.

Tires: unless GY releases tires before 5/30 (doubtful) I will run SM6's for the 5/30 LRP, 6/20 LRP and 7/25-26 WGI events. At 22.8" diameter, comparing 4.25, 4.7 and 4.9 FD at 7200 shift rpm, speeds go as follows:

4.25FD 4.7FD 4.5FD

35.37 31.99 30.68
60.5 54.71 52.48
91.97 83.16 79.77
126.47 114.36 109.69
153.28 138.6 132.94

Wow, it's I have a 5th gear now! I think a 4.9FD is the way to go.

[Ed Funk]

after seeing you run at NHMS in apr, I think you need a 3/4 inch SIR:rolleyes:

[mossaidis]

(Deleted for being a jerk) :rolleyes: you going to LRP on 5/30? When do I get to meet the wifey?