bit confused on washer bottle..

[Spinnetti]

So, the rules say you have to have a 1 qt min capacity oil catcher for any valve cover vent. I also hear lots of folks say they just use their washer reservoir for for it... but is that legal? You'd have to put a hole in it to do that wouldn't you? I think some of the rules are a bit petty, but don't want to get stung by them either.

[Gary L]

I'm not gonna comment on the legality of such an arrangement, but man... that's going to make a Hell of a Mess if you accidentally hit the windshield washer button! :o

[trhoppe]

Yes it is legal, and is a great way to use both that space and that bottle that you can't remove.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes it is legal, and is a great way to use both that space and that bottle that you can't remove.

I think you would have a hard time REALLY arguing that it was legal but I do see a lot of people do it. It's just one of many stock pieces on an IT car that should be present and unmodified as it says nothing in the rules saying otherwise. IIDSYCTYC.

The OP is talking about the technical legality, not the practical application at local events.

[Ron Earp]

I think you would have a hard time REALLY arguing that it was legal

Why?

GCR States:
i. Oil catch tanks are permitted. All engine breathers or vapor recirculation lines, if disconnected, shall vent to a catch tank of one (1) quart minimum capacity. Such catch tanks shall not be mounted in the driver/passenger compartment. Original valve cover(s) may be modified to alter or to add breather/filler.
It doesn't say anything about the material of construction, size, shape, or other uses for said catch can. I might find that my washer bottle motor works better when the washer fluid has a bit of oil floating on top of it.

I won't start on another washer bottle rant.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The OP asked because he correctly wondered why it was legal. How do you 'use' it as a catch can without modifying it - because I don't see where the ITCS allows you to modify the WB...and remember, the WB is never called out specifically in the ITCS, it just happens to be the poster-child for 'stock stuff that has to remain in my racecar in IT'. There are TONS of things like that in our cars. I bet there are a few rare designs that you could do it with - without modification...but would like to see them with unmodified caps and housings in place.

Trival? Yes...but that was the point of the OP, no?

Really what you are saying Ron is that you can modify any stock part that could perform an allowed function...and I just don't buy it.

Stupid? Maybe, but the pandoras box you would open......(again, on edit...I think we all realize it's as nit-picky as it gets, but that is WHY the OP asked. Nobody would protest this sort of thing but that is not the question)

[Gary L]

I've changed my mind... after reviewing the appropriate paragraphs, I'm going to comment on legality after all. And this isn't about the washer bottle (although I agree with Andy... that bottle must remain unmodified, IMO).

Rather, this is about what I see as a conflict between GCR 9.3.37, which applies to all competition cars regardless of class, and the ITCS. The former says every race car shall have an oil catch tank for any engine crankcase breather, period. The latter says your IT car is permitted a catch tank, if an engine breather line is disconnected.

So which is it for an IT car? Does the "...shall be equipped" wording of GCR 9.3.37 apply, therefore making a catch tank mandantory? Or is it that a catch tank is "permitted" and therefore optional, but only if another condition is met? Seems to me that a major part of ITCS 9.1.3.D.1.i is superfluous at best, conflicting at worst. Incidentally, the SSCS makes absolutely no mention of catch tanks... do the showroom stockers run them, or not?

[Gibson]

If you must leave all the equipment there, why would you not just put a little washer fluid in it and keep it operational for those times the car in front of you oils down your windshield?

[Ron Earp]

T

Really what you are saying Ron is that you can modify any stock part that could perform an allowed function...and I just don't buy it.

Naw. What I'm really saying is that a washer bottle could work great as an oil catch can. Don't see that it needs any modification at all. Zip-tie the breather hose right over the washer bottle fluid opening. Now if you say that is illegal, well, then we've all got illegal cars because the rules don't state things like "yes, you can zip-tie your Tracmate cord to the heater hose" and what not.

Gary, don't have the CGR handy - does GCR 9.3.37 say the can must be metal? Seems I remember that the oil catch can had to be metal. That would eliminate washer bottles.

[Gary L]

Catch tank material is not specified... here's 9.3.37 in it's entirety:


Oil holding tanks and engine breathers, whether directly or indirectly ventilating the crankcase, and all transmission/transaxle breathers shall be equipped with oil catch tanks. Minimum catch tank capacity shall be one U.S. quart for the engine and transmission/transaxle. Oil holding tanks and oil filters may be mounted in the driver/passenger compartment. A metal bulkhead shall prevent exposure of the driver to oil spillage. Oil catch tanks shall vent into the engine compartment or outside the driver’s compartment. A crankcase vacuum breather that passes through the oil catch tank(s) to exhaust systems or vacuum devices that connect directly to exhaust systems is prohibited.

[planet6racing]

Washer bottle? Mine's gone! That was the happiest day so far this year when working on the race car. Well, that and realizing that I could move the battery to the rear of the car and complete remove the dashboard and everything else in there...

(note, I'm moving to FP)

One could argue that you are using the washer bottle for something other than it's original purpose, therefore it is against the IT rules.

[Ron Earp]

So does GCR 9.3.37 override the IT rules?



One could argue that you are using the washer bottle for something other than it's original purpose, therefore it is against the IT rules.

Well....the brake assembly is for slowing down the car. And the transmission is used for matching engine speed to road speed, allowing the car to travel at higher speeds and accelerate at a given road speed. Many times I like to use my engine and transmission, instead of my brakes, for slowing down my car. Am I using an item for something other than it's original purpose and in violation of the rules?

[Doc Bro]

My thoughts are that if we would modify the rules to allow the removal of the washer bottle no cars would see any performance gains, but many employers would get a little more out of their employees.

R

[Andy Bettencourt]

Naw. What I'm really saying is that a washer bottle could work great as an oil catch can. Don't see that it needs any modification at all. Zip-tie the breather hose right over the washer bottle fluid opening.


Where is 'your' cap in this example? My point is that you need to modify the part in order to make it work. Attaching a legal item with zip ties, velcro, gold-plated zip screws - all legal...as long as they don't perform an illegal function at the same time.

I haven't seen a WB set-up where it's not capped or has 'access holes' in it. Yes, they make good catch cans (provided you don't melt them) but you still haven't proven that they would be legal. It's easy and convienent - and nobody would protest (IMHO), but still not legal IMHO.

I can't stress how much I know these things are petty, but re-read the OP's question.

[Ron Earp]

Where is 'your' cap in this example? My point is that you need to modify the part in order to make it work. Attaching a legal item with zip ties, velcro, gold-plated zip screws - all legal...as long as they don't perform an illegal function at the same time.


I figured I'd simply leave the cap attached but dangling off to the side.

http://www.familyparts.com/images/restoration_parts/Lil%20Red/Washer%20Bottle.%20%20PN%203489740.jpg



I haven't seen a WB set-up where it's not capped or has 'access holes' in it. Yes, they make good catch cans (provided you don't melt them) but you still haven't proven that they would be legal.

Hell, it is all hypothetical for me anyhow.

Ron

[Andy Bettencourt]

My thoughts are that if we would modify the rules to allow the removal of the washer bottle no cars would see any performance gains, but many employers would get a little more out of their employees.

R

Funny - but not true. Why? As has been beaten to death, the WB is poster child for 'what I don't need to build a racecar' or 'if it isn't performance or safety related, it should be able to be removed' arguement. The line in the sand is there. No compelling reasons to move it IMHO have been made to date. Glass windshield, glass hatches, headlights, horns, taillights, dashboards, heater cores...the list goes on and on.

Everyone has thier own definition of what is 'right for a racecar'.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I figured I'd simply leave the cap attached but dangling off to the side.

http://www.familyparts.com/images/restoration_parts/Lil%20Red/Washer%20Bottle.%20%20PN%203489740.jpg



Hell, it is all hypothetical for me anyhow.

Ron

I like the example. The cap off is certainly within 'factory spec', even if open. I keep envisioning the ones I have seen where they are all hacked up and modded to accept the potential of a 300 degree dump. It's a fine line, but a line non-the-less.

I would call that a legal idea...just don't modify the stock part as many do.

On a side note, I don't run a breather - these motors have such little you can do to them, it it neccessary?

[tom91ita]

....On a side note, I don't run a breather - these motors have such little you can do to them, it it neccessary?

Andy, i am going to bend the thread a bit. i thought most of us ended up with open ended hoses when we ditched the emissions stuff off the car. instead of venting the valve cover back to the throttle body, i plugged the applicable holes at the TB and vented the valve cover to a 1 qt. quaker state catch bottle.

Dave, back to part of your original question, i keep meaning to install a catch can for the vent of my transmission since it is required per the GCR 9.3.37 (see Gary's post above). however, i don't ever recall anyone else having one either.

[DavidM]

What's a washer bottle? I have a pimpy radiator overflow with a pump. :D

[MMiskoe]

Well this does beg the question about the new wording in the ITCS that was brought in new for this year:

9.1.3.B Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed.

So based on this, you can't use the washer bottle because it cannot be disabled.

But tell me this - how do you mount the new catch tank? Can't modify, alter or remove anything so how do you drill a hole in the fender well to mount it? Drilling a hole is modifying a stock part is it not?

Can't weld anything onto your stock tow hook to make it meet the 2" diameter requirement.

The list goes on forever. This new wording has struck me as an open door to protest anyone you don't like. I don't understand its need or purpose, I'm curious to hear other opinions.

Matt

[Ron Earp]

So based on this, you can't use the washer bottle because it cannot be disabled.


I'd disagree. The washer bottle I have shown will still be 100% functional and is not disabled. It'll still spray washer fluid, or a slurry of washer fluid and oil in the case of the oil catching washer bottle.

[Gary L]

9.1.3.B Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed.
I'm thinking the part I've underlined (which has gone unchanged for years) does give you the leeway to drill a hole, or perform any other work that may be necessary to mount a catch can, or weld a tow loop, or whatever. To paraphrase another oft-quoted mantra... If it says you must, you sure as Hell can. :)

[raffaelli]

I'd disagree. The washer bottle I have shown will still be 100% functional and is not disabled. It'll still spray washer fluid, or a slurry of washer fluid and oil in the case of the oil catching washer bottle.

Did the dealer provide oil in the washer fluid from the show room?

[Ron Earp]

Did the dealer provide oil in the washer fluid from the show room?

I don't know.

But I know the dealer didn't provide 100% water in the radiator, or synthetic oil in the engine, gearbox, or diff.

[Z3_GoCar]

I don't know.

But I know the dealer didn't provide 100% water in the radiator, or synthetic oil in the engine, gearbox, or diff.

Since Oil isn't mentioned in the ITCS, then it can't be changed, ergo you have to run the same oil that was in the crankcase when the car rolled off the showroom floor:blink:

Good luck finding that:D

found it for the piston engine, bu the rotory's have to run the same oil they came from the factory with, also transmission, differential oil, and as Ron mentioned, radiator fluid have to be the same.

Sounds like someone should protest the whole field including themselves.... I think I remember hearing about a similar protest at the run-offs in fp

[MMiskoe]

To paraphrase another oft-quoted mantra... If it says you must, you sure as Hell can.


That's not necessarily true. I can't 86 the dash simply on the merit that the roll cage gets in the way.

I'm still scratching my head about why 9.1.3B needed to be added. What its purpose is when we have other rules stating IIDSYCYC and an allowed change can't second handedly do something specifically not allowed.

[Spinnetti]

Well, that was a good discussion.. maybe production is really where I need to be after all... I'd love to ditch the junk and move the battery (had a car burn in a wreck due to the battery being out there in harms way). IT keeps drifting over the years (open ECU, coil overs, blah, blah) that sure didn't meet the intent, yet gets stupid a about stuff like heater cores and washer bottles..... I like a car to look like a car (especially on the outside) and like the old rules where you could take out carpet and headliner, but the rest stayed in, no coilovers, no ecu mods.......

Anyway, back on topic, looks like if you run the bottle, have water in it, but also dump your vent hose in the top it should be legal, if not the best way to serve that function. I currently have a "proper" catch can, mounted by the way in an existing bolt hole, but would rather just port it into the washer bottle. I guess it all depends on if somebody wants to get all anal with protests after the race results are in I guess.

[Z3_GoCar]

Spin,

I understand your frustrations. As I didn't do the inital prep to my car, there are several "details" that need to be addressed to be even close to IT legal. For example, even though my budget is tight I spent money for a heater core. I won't be hooking this up to anything just going to zip tie it under the dash because it shares the same compartment with the condensor coil for the AC and that can be removed, I'm not going to mess with finding more plastic under dash parts. I also feel for those who have the washer bottle smashed, then can't find one because they're all ancient plastic that turns to dust when handled. I like several of the same things about IT that you do, and also I think the no remote resevoir shocks/struts and DOT certified tires are two more points I like and that seperate IT from past and future production land. Really production has turned into the tub chassis version of GT, without the aero aids though. I think the tough economic times work to IT's favor, it's limits to the rules are still just restrictive enough to contain costs without having to have "factory" specials like SSx and Tx do.

[lateapex911]

Well, that was a good discussion.. maybe production is really where I need to be after all... I'd love to ditch the junk and move the battery (had a car burn in a wreck due to the battery being out there in harms way). IT keeps drifting over the years (open ECU, coil overs, blah, blah) that sure didn't meet the intent, yet gets stupid a about stuff like heater cores and washer bottles..... I like a car to look like a car (especially on the outside) and like the old rules where you could take out carpet and headliner, but the rest stayed in, no coilovers, no ecu mods.......

.........but would rather just port it into the washer bottle. I guess it all depends on if somebody wants to get all anal with protests after the race results are in I guess.

Every category will have it's positives and weaknesses.
In IT, stability and careful management are the cornerstones. Major changes are discussed with the membership via forums like this (I can find a half dozen ECU discussions here alone), and THEN put out for member comment.

Prod has historically been a "Rewards weight" category, except your reward might not be weight, it might be a smaller carb, or other mechanical change, OR, it could be a change to your competitor. AND it happens yearly, and in the past, without a consistent and repeatable process. Not to mention the stories of smoke filled backroom dealings...

Further, your category choice is affected by where you live, and your desires for competition. You might be able to campaign a Prod car competitively in certain parts of the country more inexpensively than an IT car, just because the pond is smaller and more stagnant. or vice versa....or, you might decide to swim in the bigger pond because you value competition.

But, apples to apples, I'd bet that IT returns more even competition for the dollar.

I think IT's popularity can be attributed to the reasonable nature of the ruleset (Not perfect, but a good balance of not too little and not too much), and the rules stabilty (It's not a year to year changine weight and specs category). Secondary reasons are, I think, the wide range of available car choices, and the rather transparent nature of the ITAC.

Your example about the battery above is something that can be rectified, (for the most part) by proper installation and a battery box, and it's occurrences are extremely rare. (Yours is the first I've heard where the car was seriously burned...or burned at all)

The coilover changes have been in place for sheeesh, 2 decades ..actually more now. Remember, technology changes, adn the category MUST adapt. The ITAC tries to adapt as painlessly as possible, but it won't ever be painless...that's the nature of the beast. Our number one concern is to be fair and consistent.

As for washer bottles and catch cans, mine is a catch can, the top is open and the hose is stuck in. (I think..maybe I drilled the top out.!?!?! Have to check) But, nobody is going to protest that in a million years guys! Really, it's a no issue.

Heck, the real stuff that I've seen going on takes forever to protest....if at all.

[spnkzss]

I have a washer bottle like shown in this thread. I keep the cap open and shove a hose in it. The hose doesn't even need to be zip tied. It's just tight enough that it hold it's self in. Now I plan on changing it this year as I dont' like the idea of some front and damage, which will destroy the bottle and drop oil right on my front tire. It's also a pain in the ass to empty. When I did it I was being a smart ass.

Now question of legality, I think it is, but I do question the "used for OTHER purposes" that we always bring up. :shrug:

[callard]

Hmm...be careful with your vent hoses into the catch tanks. Some years ago we had crankcase and tranny vent hoses going into a large bottle near the radiator. Apparently a crew member mistook that bottle as a radiator overflow bottle. After returning from a 24 hour race at Moroso, we pulled the drain plug on the transmission and were surprised by a flood of bright green fluid before the gear lube flowed out. It seems that the combination of fluids and hoses created a siphon to the tranny and filled it with almost a quart of antifreeze. Amazingly, no harm to the box.
Chuck

[EV]

Hmm...be careful with your vent hoses into the catch tanks. Some years ago we had crankcase and tranny vent hoses going into a large bottle near the radiator. Apparently a crew member mistook that bottle as a radiator overflow bottle. After returning from a 24 hour race at Moroso, we pulled the drain plug on the transmission and were surprised by a flood of bright green fluid before the gear lube flowed out. It seems that the combination of fluids and hoses created a siphon to the tranny and filled it with almost a quart of antifreeze. Amazingly, no harm to the box.
Chuck
At least your transmission wouldn't freeze :)