2009: Kumho vs. Hankook vs. Hoosier vs. BFG... fight!

[vtluu]

Hi folks, old topic, new year. I'm pondering tire choices for my ITS Miata:
- Kumho V710 205/50-15
- Hankook Z214 C51 225/45-15
- Hoosier R6 225/45-15
- BFG R1 205/50-15

I can get a couple sets of Kumhos cheap from a team that has leftovers from the 25-Hour. They'll also work well for the occasional autocross if I so choose. At 18 lbs they're the lightest tire.

The Hoosiers are the stickiest and that ~9" tread width is unmatched, so I'd expect phenomenal grip, but as the shortest-lived tires costing about $200 more a set than any other, I'm willing to go without until my talent catches up.

AIM touts the Hankook as a miracle tire (sticky as Hoosiers, durable as Toyos). I've heard some people say the same about the BFG R1. I've seen very little actual data or even anecdotal evidence on either.

Hankook: 225-wide means more tread means more grip, but at 22 lbs apiece that's 4 lbs more unsprung weight per corner than the Kumhos, and the little bit of time I might drop with the extra grip I might sacrifice on the straights. My searches also found much grumbling about availability; is it still an issue?

BFG R1: the new kid on the block, and mostly an unknown quantity. Nothing to choose price-wise vs. the Kumhos or Hankooks.

[betamotorsports]

Choose the tire with the best contingency program (the one where you're most likely to get some money or tires for free) and run those.

[JeffYoung]

I only run the R6. Longevity is much improved over earlier versions. We get 10-12 good heat cycles out of them.

[vtluu]

Choose the tire with the best contingency program (the one where you're most likely to get some money or tires for free) and run those.
Thanks John. I'm only running regional SCCA events and as near as I can tell, given the current economic climate and all, the amount of contingency money that can be had is about... zero.

[JeffYoung]

You'd be surprised. We have a very good Hoosier contingency down here via Appalachian Tire. Not pushing Hoosiers on a noob, if I were you I'd go Toyos, but there are contingencies out there.

[JohnRW]

Basic rule of racing: The bestest fastest tire on earth is a free tire.

[vtluu]

Basic rule of racing: The bestest fastest tire on earth is a free tire.
Given the level of competition around here I'm not optimistic about my odds of winning any such things.

I've got 2 sets of Toyo RA1s but I'm looking to upgrade. I've got a set of Hankook C50s with 1.5 practice/test days on them so I guess those are better than the RA1s and "free".

I just ordered a new set of Kumho W710s for the 1-2 rain races we might have here in this region... I didn't switch from SM to IT to keep all my money in my wallet you know! :D

[ebb]

Kumho still has a contingency plan this year, but it is not as good as last year.

[lateapex911]

Tire truths:

Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

In the rain:

Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

All others a distant second


The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.

[jumbojimbo]

Kumho still has a contingency plan this year, but it is not as good as last year.

Can you point me toward this? I don't see any non-national contingencies on the scca site (eye roll) http://www.scca.com/contingencies.aspx?hub=1&cid=9 But I also don't see anything on the Kumho site.

[vtluu]

Jim, don't make me post the obligatory LetMeGoogleThatForYou link: ;)

http://kumhomotorsports.wordpress.com/contingency/

My theory: Kumho is cutting down on contingency costs by making the contingency program info really hard to find.

[jumbojimbo]

Yes, I am quite embarassed that I wasted my time looking on the SCCA and Kumho websites for information. I should have known better.

This is an interesting notion. I thought the whole point of contingency was to motivate us to buy your brand of tires. In order for that to be effective people need to know about the program.

Right now we have a contingency from Kumho that is not accessible from their kumhousa web page. Instead there is a secret motorsports blog site that is not linked from the corporate site and can only be found with a google search. Not one of the authorized dealers I looked at today has a single word about contingency, let alone a link to the secret site.

Hoosier Tire Midwest has a contingency but they won't tell you what it is unless you call. I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, but do you see my point? How hard would it be to post the payouts here and motivate people to buy your product?

Right now the secret Kumho program seems better than the secret Hoosier program. And I just got a Hooiser sweatshirt for Chirstmas...

[mc-integra111]

Tire truths:

Hoosiers: The defacto standard...fast, and now live a bit longer.

Hankooks: The challenger. (I set records at every track except one I ran at this year on kooks,), their life isn't well known, but the money is (was) good.

Toyos. slower, but last forever. The money tire if you can't win.

In the rain:

Dirt Stockers are the gold standard.
Close second, and better in the not torrential stuff because they won't chunk as soon: The new Hoosier molded radial rain.

All others a distant second

The higher unsprung weight of the Hoosiers is irrelevant compared to the grip in the final lap time analysis.

It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?

[joeg]

For the umpteenth time--HOOSIER.

Case closed.

[lateapex911]

It sounds like you have a lot of experience. I have never run Hankooks, but I agree with your analysis relative to the Hoosiers (dry and wet) and the Toyo's. I was wondering if you (or anyone) have any experience on how the Kumho V710 would fit in with the Hoosier/Hankook/Toyo? I was also wondering if anyone had any experience with the new Kumho wet that looks to be competing with the Hoosier wet radial?

I have zero experience with the kuhmo. Here's why:

They are slower than the Hoosier by all accounts.
They don't last as long as the Toyo, by most accounts.

So, they seem to be a compomise. And they offer(ed) decent contigency.

But, that's only if you win against decent fields. And where I race, they run on hoosiers. So, for me, the tire choice had to be quick enough to win on, and (if so, pay back some money. The second part is useless without the first.

So, the question always boils down to, how popular and competitive is it in your area? And, how is your budget?

If you NEED to keep it cheap, AND the competition is stout, (and you were new and really didn't have much realistic chance at winning), the answer was the Toyos.

If you COULD win on fast tires, and could use some money, then, (regional contingencies notwithstanding) the Hankooks were a good option.
The hoosiers have some payouts, but it's regionally dependent.
And if you care only about winning, you have two choices:
1-Test Hankooks and hoosiers back to back.
2- Just run hoosiers.


As far as contingencies, many companies make it hard to collect....not impossible, but they aren't looking to make it super easy. They get most of the press from offering the money, not from paying out. It's advertising for them.

[ekim952522000]

I have heard great things about the new BFG's that's what I am planning on trying first supposed to almost as fast as the Hoosiers and last longer.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have talked with Goodyear and thay are targeting mid-year for a reintro of the GSC-S/RS. :smilie_pokal:

[lateapex911]

I have talked with Goodyear and thay are targeting mid-year for a reintro of the GSC-S/RS. :smilie_pokal:

Sizes? Cost will undoubtedly be high..

[jjjanos]

The consensus is that the Hoosiers are faster. The problem with the consensus is that there isn't a great deal of experience on the Hankooks because it is often impossible to get them. I ran them on a CRX in ITB. When comparing sticker versus sticker, I was about 1.5 seconds off the fast laps set by the BMWs in the first MARRS at Summit Point.

Full disclosure: my car was too soft in the front and had an open-differential. In short, it was an ill-handling pig that couldn't put power down in twisty bits. I expect that the differential will be less now.

In the Smurf, I drove on scuffed Hoosiers and scuffed Kooks and couldn't tell the difference.

I went with the Hankooks because, for the last two years, I could get 4 Kooks for the price of 3 Hoosiers. I have yet to run out of heat cycles in the Kooks. I tend to flat spot them first. (Thus 4 for the price of 3 is real attractive to me.)

[Spinnetti]

While you are talking tires.... Any tips for how much cold pressure Hoosiers like? Back in the old days (last time I ran), there was a huge difference between some of the tires as to pressures (BFG, Yoko, Hoosier bias ply etc).... (FWIW, I have a RWD IT car 2030lb w/o driver, struts up front, live axle rear).....

[hondaracer48]

Ron Cortez is the best tire guy on earth!!! I'd trust him on his datas on the Hankooks. I would probably go with the Hankooks based on what your requirements are (price/grip/durability).

One thing to consider though......considering how much money you've invested or will invest into the car, would you want to have that investment limited by your tire choice? It always helps me to put my mind frame on race weekends where I can recall instances where I wish I had spent a little more to get that little edge.

Ed Chang
SFR ITS GSRs

[mustanghammer]

Anybody have experience with the Nitto NT01? They also offer a 225/45/15 and priced right. Plus you can get them from www.discounttire.com (http://www.discounttire.com) for free shipping. These tires seem to be popular in NASA and with the open track crowd. I seem to remember them doing well in a Grassroots Motorsports comparo.

The fact that Kumho doesn't offer a 225/45x15 to me would be a turn off if I needed and can use that tire size. I am not sure that it would be fair to compare the Kumho 205/50 to a 225 from the other manufacturers. That said, I would NEVER turn down really cheap or Free tires if it means I can get track time.

BTW I drive on Kumhos and like them. I can afford them and they drive predictably. I have beaten Hoosiers with them - twice last year at HPT.

[vtluu]

Thanks Ed & others.

My car is nowhere near "built to the hilt" yet so I'm not overly concerned about being tire-limited, but it'd be nice to start out with tires I can grow into for the next couple of years.

Scott, I ran the Nitto NT-01s on my race-prepped Evo 8. Nice sticky durable tires, overall about the same level of grip as the Kumho Victoracers but a bit less "peaky" and more consistent performance throughout their life. A modest step up from the RA1s, I think. Rumor was that they have the same compound as the RA1 successor, i.e. what's called the R888 today. I ran a couple sets of Victoracers on my Evo and they had a nasty way of wearing very unevenly; shaving might have helped but then why not go for the V710s.

In brief, NT-01s are nice but not in the same league as the semi-slick DOTs.

[IPRESS]

Tam, Go with the Hoosier R6 SM 205 50 15. It is cheaper by a bunch and works great. Fast & Lasts!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sizes? Cost will undoubtedly be high..

Not sure yet but they have always been slightly lower than The Purple.

[tnord]

I have zero experience with the kuhmo. Here's why:

They are slower than the Hoosier by all accounts.
They don't last as long as the Toyo, by most accounts.

So, they seem to be a compomise. And they offer(ed) decent contigency.



all tires are a compromise jake, it's just a matter of where the mfg's want to make that compromise.

the last time i drove on hoosiers was maybe some R3S04s or 05s, so i can't really say from experience if the 710s are slower than the new hoosiers. i do think some clarification is needed here though....i would REALLY hesitate to say the hoosiers are faster than the v710 in a qualifying situation, and i think depending on driving style, car type, and car setup the V710 can be as fast as the hoosier at least for a while. there are plenty of AS guys who do actually choose the kumho and prefer it to the hoosier.

the toyo thing is all smoke and mirrors. in order to really get maximum performance out of the toyo you have to shave it down so far that it's only useful for a couple weekends, and even then it's an inferior tire to the other three in everything but initial cost.

[JeffYoung]

The RS06 is an amazing tire. Great grip and much improved longevity over the earlier versions. 3 race weekends is very doable.

I say that knowing nothing about the Hankook, since our local vendor does not carry them and I heard supply is 'difficult" to say teh least. With a Hoosier, if I need one in a pinch, or if I need 4 in a pinch, I head over to the App Tire guys and get them. That simple. That's worth a lot to me, and something you (the OP) should consider when making a tire choice.

Andy, will the new Goodyear tire be available in 15" sizes?

[lateapex911]

Spin- I'm far from an expert, but I have always tied to aim for my colds to get me to an optimum hot pressure. I ran Kooks last year, but Hoosiers before that, and IIRC the gurus like Phil of Phils Tire Service recommended in the 38 hot vicinity. Different tracks required different starting pressures to get there, but 7-8 pounds build was typical.

[JLawton]

As Jake did, I ran my fastest laps on Hankooks. I even ran Hoosiers one weekend and Kooks the next. I found them to be much more consistant than the Hoosiers. A little more forgiving.

But they can be hard to find.......... *&%^$#@*!!

[kevin22]

If you are learning as a driver I would reccomend just choosing a a consistant and inexpensive tire such as the TOYO. Stay with the same tire and develope your driving skill. Eventually, when you are driving to the limits of what the tire and car can handle, try some other makes of tire and feel for yourself the difference.

[vtluu]

Kevin, thanks but that's missing the point. If I wanted cheap/consistent tires/car I would have stayed in Spec Piñata.

Of course I'm still learning as a driver. I'm always learning. Has anybody here stoppped learning? I've "learned" past the point where stickier tires are beneficial for me, really!

Anyway after I factor in the cost of shaving, they're not actually cheaper than the Kumhos or BFGs are for me as I can get the latter two at discounted prices.

[ITA_honda]

haha. ofcourse free tires are the best tires. LOL:D
But I run a 1990 Honda Civic Si in ITA, and Ive found the Kumho V710's to be a pretty damn good tire. Good performance for the price. I havent tried the Hoosier's (mainly cause im a kid, and im racing on a shoe string budget, so I dont want to spend more than i have to for tires)
Last year I used 205/50/15 V710's
This year im switching wheels and tires to 205/55/14. mainly cause the price of the 205/50/15 are a lot more than the 205/55/14.
But to any budget minded racer (and I think we all mostly are) The Kumho is the best bang for the buck (in my opinion):026:

[jay05]

As far as contingencies, many companies make it hard to collect....not impossible, but they aren't looking to make it super easy. They get most of the press from offering the money, not from paying out. It's advertising for them.

Kumho usually sends the Kuhmo bucks 2 weeks after I send in the results. They are good for 90 days. I'll call and order the tires from The Tire Rack and I'll send the Kuhmo bucks with the invoice number and they'll cedit my card. Didn't pay for tires last year. Only shipping. Looks like this year may be different with them lowering the payout.

[dazzlesa]

earlier in the year i could not use the hankooks. they would plow. when we got the set up better is when i was able to use the hankooks. the hoosiers seem to let you get away with poor setups.
at the last race of the year i ran hoosiers on saturday and hankooks on sunday.
my fastest lap was on the hoosier by 4 tenths. both tires hung with me throughout the 45 minute race.

[hondaracer48]

Bang for the buck won't usually get you into the winner's circle. I'd say get the best you can. With proper tire management, it will all be worth while in the end.

[kevin22]

Unless you are running at the very front, who cares if one tires is a couple tenths faster then another. If you are a full second behind the leader is the extra $200 a set worth it. i think economics and consistancy are more important, unless you are at the front.

[vtluu]

If you are a full second behind the leader is the extra $200 a set worth it.
If it makes me a second faster, then yes. :D

If only it was that clear-cut a decision. Thanks everybody for all the helpful replies!

[Andy Bettencourt]

If it makes me a second faster, then yes. :D

If only it was that clear-cut a decision. Thanks everybody for all the helpful replies!

Actually, aside from my Goodyear preference and pending 2009 availability, it is.

If you wanna go fast, it's Hooiser. If you want to compromise, then compromise and be fine with it - and go with the Toyo RA1.

[jimmyc]

check out the BFG R1s, they are fast and last a long time.

I have one (brand new) that i am looking to get rid of because of spec tire issues.

We found them to be 2.5 seconds faster on a Honda challenge H1 car at thunderhill with the by pass, versus a toyo RA1. That is out of the box running the same everything as the RA1s. And the data was showing that the tires would preform better with a setup more suited to them.

I know of one SFR SCCA ITA car that made the jump from Hoosiers to hankooks, because they were faster.