drivers working races

[dickita15]

Is there a reason the vast majority of drivers do not also work some races. Is not enjoyable or all we all just selfish.
Our region just had its winter annual meeting and the Flagging chief and the continued drop in workers mentions the active drivers that flag on some of their non-racing weekends. She mentions about 4 names, we have around 700 different drivers who race with us during a average year.
My perspective is different than most here as I was a worker long before I started driving.
Now I do not like working on the weekend that I race, I may work tech in the morning if I have a late run group or fill in driving the pace car for a couple of races if they are short but I do attend races as a worker when I am not driving. Why are there so few of us that do?
Most workers view this as a club where we work together to put on event that we like but it seems as most drivers view SCCA as a vender that provides a service for a fee.
Thoughts

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't want to be oversimplistic but its just not part of a requirement so it hasn't made it's way into the culture of the specialty.

For Flatout, we plan what our workers have to do to support the 8-14 cars we bring to the track. If working a corner for a racegroup or two (or insert area in need of help) was part of that requirment, then we would make it work as part of our planning.

[GBugg]

I love working the corners - especially on a National w/e or a vintage race. These days - at least in the SEDiv - most host regions are paying enough to cover a hotel room for the weekend and providing meals. The gas is really the only expense.

I strongly encourage it! After all, it's the 2nd best seat in the house!

[Ed Funk]

If it was required, it would happen, we're basically lazy! Anyway, aren't we spending a lot of money to provide entertainment for those flaggers!:D And then we let them go first at lunch time!:cool:

[raffaelli]

As part of my novice permit I worked in T&S. I was only required to work 1 session and two events. At the ProIT weekends at LRP I worked all day on Friday (I didn’t race till Saturday). At the second event, I was going to race in the Narrc-offs. The weather made the choice for me and I spent two days in T&S. I will make it a habit to work the weekends I am available and not racing. Also, my wife, my crew chief and I will work at least one session the weekends I am racing.

In the radio controlled racing I do, everyone is required to corner work at least in as many sessions as you are on the track. If you don’t, you lose a lap off your best qualifier.

[BruceG]

Is there a reason the vast majority of drivers do not also work some races. Is not enjoyable or all we all just selfish.
Our region just had its winter annual meeting and the Flagging chief and the continued drop in workers mentions the active drivers that flag on some of their non-racing weekends. She mentions about 4 names, we have around 700 different drivers who race with us during a average year.
My perspective is different than most here as I was a worker long before I started driving.
Now I do not like working on the weekend that I race, I may work tech in the morning if I have a late run group or fill in driving the pace car for a couple of races if they are short but I do attend races as a worker when I am not driving. Why are there so few of us that do?
Most workers view this as a club where we work together to put on event that we like but it seems as most drivers view SCCA as a vender that provides a service for a fee.
Thoughts

Dick..What's the statute of limitation on corner worker training?
I cut my teeth on corner work during the late 60's/early 70's at LRP,Thompson and Loudon during the old trans AM, VEtte/Cobra battle days. I would be glad to help out when not racing at LRP and NHMS.:shrug:

Bruce

[dickita15]

As I said I am not a big fan of working sessions on the weekends I am racing and the F&C people do not see it as very helpful anyway unless these volunteers are already fully trained.
I am just wondering why more people do not enjoy doing this on off weekends as Chris does.

[dickita15]

Dick..What's the statute of limitation on corner worker training?
I cut my teeth on corner work during the late 60's/early 70's at LRP,Thompson and Loudon during the old trans AM, VEtte/Cobra battle days. I would be glad to help out when not racing at LRP and NHMS.:shrug:

Bruce

dig out your whites, you are welcome.:happy204:

[erlrich]

I think we're a little better here in the DC Region; I can think of at least half a dozen ITA drivers alone who work a specialty from time to time (many more if you count PDXs). But even that is still a small percentage of the total number of drivers, and I can't think of a good explanation for why more don't work. I am also one of those who doesn't like to work and race in the same weekend - I have a hard enough time getting to grid on time as it is :D - but there are still driver's schools, nationals, enduros, etc., that we could help out with.

I do know this; with the incentive program our region has for the PDX worker program - work 3 events and get a free entry - I have already committed to working every PDX/TT this year. Maybe the regions could put in place a similar program for race workers. The only problem with that is, in regions where there are already sufficient volunteer workers it would result in an unjustified loss of revenue.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am just wondering why more people do not enjoy doing this on off weekends as Chris does.

Oh, THAT is the question? Easy. No time. My racing season is already limited by time (and money). Balancing my free time (that isn't so free with kids, coaching sports, ITAC, etc) is the busiest part of my life!

If I could be at the track every weekend, I would. Limited funds would prevent me from road-racing every weekend but I would be autoxing for sure.

Now that I talk it through...I am a racer, a driver. Almost 20 years worth now. I have limited interest in being at a 'driving event' and not driving...

[joeg]

I'll work occassionally for a region's event when I am not entered, but the bottom line for me is that this is not SOLO.

I am busy during an event since I don't use any crew.

[gran racing]

Basically what Andy said. Time is a big factor.

On the rare occassions I do go to a SCCA race weekend I'm not racing, my wife joins me. She is pretty accomodating with my racing but has absolutely no interest in becoming any more involved than she already is. So getting her to volunteer is out. She enjoys these events and my volunteering when she goes isn't realistic.

Another issue (once again related to time) is many events are two days including a weekday which means taking a vacation day.

[Greg Amy]

Why are there so few of us that do?
Easy: Time, money, and personal motivations.

There's only so many weekends available in which to partake the hobby, and those are taken up with driving (and the off weekends are usually used fixing the race car). There's only so much money available for the hobby, so that which may be left over is used for driving (instead of using travel money to F&C).

Plus, when you're at the track, there's only so much time between sessions, with none left for working a corner (I try to tech whenever possible, but my participation prevents me from being consistent.)

I've been asked to work events exclusively (Scott's trying to get me to be a chief, while Roberts is trying to convince me to enter the stewards program) but my interest is in driving. To be brutally honest, if I'm not driving or participating in some capacity (such as crew chief, enduro manager, or paid data aq guy) my motivation to spend my discretionary time and money "be there" is pretty damn thin. Does that make me selfish in that regard? Absolutely. Is there anything wrong with that? Of course not.

I suppose if I were ever to become disabled to the point I can't drive or ill and can't pass the medical, then I might consider further participation as a volunteer. But I can't say that for sure, as I don't know what my motivation would be at that point.

Drivers see the SCCA as a service provider because, frankly, that's what it is. While drivers recognize that volunteers provide a valuable service, they also invest a lot of time and money to be there; in effect, to provide the club atmosphere that the volunteers can "enjoy". Granted, it's a lop-sided affair, but short of charging the drivers more to provide to the volunteers (which would probably kill the goose) there's not much more you can do about it...conversely, if the volunteers decided it was no longer worth it, then the goose commits suicide...

Ours is a system that relies on drivers wanting to pay-to-play, and volunteers wanting to volunteer. Short of some other motiviation to get drivers more involved, I suggest that's going to be hard to overcome...

GA, former National F&C license holder

[tnord]

i've worked corners before......found it mostly boring with a few moments of fun. if the club would finally grow a pair and cut/consolidate where needed to create larger and more entertaining races, that might change.

but overall, i don't have enough fun volunteering to justify the expense and time it requires. remember, SCCA is a CLUB, and this is our HOBBY. i don't want it to turn into more WORK, i do that enough during the week.

it's a symbiotic relationship, the workers and drivers need each other to enjoy our similar, but different hobbies.

[JamesB]

I could never flag on a weekend I was driving. The way the flagging rotations work at all the events I have been to, it would be unfair to leave the team a man short most of the day. Pre and post qual/race work takes up some serious time. Also conserving energy levels is a big issue.

Now, I have and will continue working EV when the tracks allow it. But the WDC EV crew has enough staff and we can plan so that if I need to duck out a few sessions, or cannot go to baker for until after lunch we can work out the rotations and the staffing needed for all the responses.

[Jeremy Billiel]

There is a fundamental flaw with the SCCA IMO.

You see, its marketed and treated as a "club" that is run by its members and should be a social event as well.

Many, many of the drivers do not care about it being a club, rather they look at SCCA as a provider of track time and a place to race (i.e. - a business)

The fundamental problem I see in the SCCA is we are stuck in a not for profit motive, but no one else beside the insiders see it this way.

It's funny how over time the SCCA seems more and more like it should be run as a business and not as a club, but guidelines prohibit that.

This is the cirlce of doom scenario that I believe we are in. Its not fair to pay volunteers in a "club", but the drivers would rather pay a few extra bucks and have paid people if it means keeping racing going.

Its a catch 22

[jjjanos]

Its not fair to pay volunteers in a "club", but the drivers would rather pay a few extra bucks and have paid people if it means keeping racing going.

If you pay 'em, then they aren't volunteers.

A couple of reasons why few go from the paddock to the station and back during the weekend:

1. Attitude - I'm paying to race, not work.
2. Attitude - I'm here to race, not flag.
3. Time - Say you got an 8-group weekend scratch 4 sessions in the AM and PM. 2 sessions before you go out, you're checking pressures/nuts/fluids (if everything went well the last session), 1 before you are out you are changing. You are out. 1 after, you are changing and drinking water like a fish.
4. Competency - as someone who started on corners, I don't want part-time flaggers covering by back. I want someone who knows how to flag - and that takes practice. There are drivers who I would trust with my back and, not surprisingly, they all started on corners.
5. Competency - Driver's who lack situational awareness on track = bad. Flaggers who lack situational awareness = very bad.

That being said, you don't want to pay for flaggers. We couldn't afford the level of competency we get with our current volunteer/contribution system.

Here's a couple of suggestions for encouraging our volunteers:
1. If it's cold - go to the concession stand and buy 5 hot drinks. Take to a group of vols out in the cold.
2. If it's hot - go to the concession stand and buy 5 popsicles or ice cream cones. Take to a group of vols out in the heat.
3. If a vol stops at your paddock spot during the day - offer them a drink.
4. Buy 10-lbs of roasted peanuts and give 'em to a speciality chief. Workers love peanuts.
5. Get your entire race group together and COOK the vols lunch.

Not only does this encourage the vols, but it also means that they will keep their eyes on you when you are on course. Which car are you more likely to go to first? The one driving by a recognizable face or the one driven by an unknown helmet?

[dickita15]

5. Get your entire race group together and COOK the vols lunch.


I love that idea

[gran racing]

With all of reasons mentioned, I think it would be hard to tap much into the driver pool for volunteers. What about various technical schools - maybe try to hook them into volunteering? Or local colleges? Many of them have car clubs and could have interest.

I think another issue sometimes is how the various positions are marketed. I do not think it's an easy task by any means.

[lateapex911]

pheh..

it's simple, but not entirely simple.

My personal reasons are time related. If I'm at teh track racing, there's probably somebody in my world that's pissed. So, "away" time is costly. To go to races where I'm not driving requires me to pay that cost somehow.

Secondly, i decided awhile ago that a way to "give back" to the club was to serve as a volunteer on the ITAC. it's a more managable time situation as it can be done in smaller block spread out thru the month.

Third, working races costs money, on top of the time. For the majority of NER races I need to drive 3 -4 hours to NHIS, (leave Fri night) get a hotel for two nights and return on Sunday, late.

Now, i *do* try to volunteer for odd things, and have run the info booth at Lime Rock during pro weekends and chaired events in the past, but I try to limit that to LRP. of course, NER events at LRP are nearly non existant now.

In leau of that, i try to add money to the worker fund. NNJR gave me a pack of cookies for that ...mmmm cookies!

And yes, some weekends I can help when I'm at the track, but that's not ussually the case.

Short answer Dick: Time and money. And i've managed to "giveback" in other ways, although the region doesn't benefit from that.

[Z3_GoCar]

I've cornered a fair number of races while I've been putting my car back togeather. On a race day I'm a one-man band, so I can't volunteer on those days. This does give me the chance to F&C for professional races, WC-GT at Long Beach I was yellow for T1, but also I get to keep my SA sharp too.

Part of what works for me is we have a on site housing for our home track, and unless I can drive home, I usually don't work away races.

I know that in SFR, they have a formal class structure, I can't volunteer for their events, but in the South it's pretty open.

[NutDriverRighty]

There aren't many times that I agree with JJJanos, but I must say that he's basically hit the nail on the head. I spend more than $100 per weekend that I volunteer to work corners. Sometimes, I spend $300+. My time is just as valuable as anyone else's there. I have other things that I need to do as well. My wife isn't always happy for me to be gone all weekend (although, sometimes I'm sure she is!!). I do not come and spend my time, effort and money to see ____ racing against _____ in ____ run group. Yes, the racing can be entertaining at times. Working corners is much like being an airline pilot with HOURS of boredom punctuated by seconds of terror. Like Mr. Janos, the last thing that I want on my corner is someone who is inattentive, uninterested, or prone to distraction. I don't think that drivers should work corners on weekends that they race unless they have at least a half a day to give. While I am a corner worker, I am also a driver. I love to race (albeit slowly) and I've been fortunate enough to do it for the last five years. I've been working corners for six.

Before I get off of my soapbox, I'd like to say that the SCCA is a club. Just because you've paid an entry fee doesn't obligate me to drive to the race and work corners. I have to pay money to do that, too (although the Atlanta Region does pay $80 per weekend for Regional and Divisional license holders in F&C and $120 for the weekend for National license holders). Sitting in 100*+ heat in July at Road Atlanta is NOT where I want to be. Believe me, the $80-$120 we get as "payment" is a small consolation and rarely covers the expense of going to a race. However, as a club member who wants to see the club succeed and see the races happen, I am there. I couldn't care much less about "how entertaining" the race is. It's my job to watch, report, document, observe, communicate, flag, and respond. Your pass in turn one may have been the greatest move ever seen in the history of automobiles, but I'm in turn 5 and I didn't see it. Don't think that (all) corner workers come for the thrill of the race. We can't hear the track announcements due to having headphones on to talk to race control and we're too busy watching for parts falling off of the LBC or keeping an eye on the nitwit who has driven off in turn 2 for the fourth time this session.

I would like to personally thank Butch Kummer for working corners. I have had the chance to work with him and he's darned good. If anyone out there is willing and interested in working corners, we'd be glad to have you. If you haven't done it for 30 years, not much has changed. If you've never done it, you might learn a thing or two, make new friends, and maybe have a good time!

Let the flaming begin!!

Scott Franklin
F&C
ITA/7
SPU

[lateapex911]

One other thought. While this discussion has hit the flagging aspect often, there are lots of other ways to chip in.

And, when you screw up, it's nice to have a "friend" in the corps who knows and appreciates that you've volunteered on occasion and helps cover your ass. That can take many forms.

[Butch Kummer]

Since Scott has outted me, yes I HAVE worked corners (and just about every other job at the race track) but never when I'm driving that weekend. But then I live an hour from Road Atlanta, I have no life, my son has kids of his own, and my wife is strangely disappointed those weekends when I'm not headed to the race track. :blink:

Not only does working corners provide an opportunity to give back to the club, but it also makes me a better driver! I've written articles on this, but as a driver you get to see maybe three other cars (the ones immediately around you) take a particular corner 20-30 times over a weekend. As a corner worker you can watch the entire field take a corner (both good and bad) for two days!

One example: I was working Turn 11 (the Bridge) at Road Atlanta for the Petit one year and noticed that EFR and Butch Leitzinger were coming under the Bridge on the driver's far right (almost nailing the abutment) while most of us Clubbies (myself included) were taking a much wider line. Knowing that those guys are good, I tried their line the next time I drove and discovered the bump under the Bridge is MUCH less severe on the right than it is farther left. Not a big difference on the clock, but it DOES a big difference in keeping a relatively high horsepower car under you right there.

Another advantage is the workers pay more attention to folks they know. At Saturday night's party I'll ask "How'd I look out there today?" and many times I'll get comments on how my line compared to my fellow drivers. If I was just another helmet they might not pay attention, but them being able to put a face with a car number gives me an advantage.

YMMV...

[ner88]

So, in general, racers would rather pay an additional $225. per event for workers?
Please let me know beacuse I'll stop worrying about where I'm going to find voluteers and start hiring workers.
Hmmmm, what's the going rate for a flagger, stewart, tech inspector, pace car driver or someone to sit in Timing and scoring all weekend?
I'm not sure $225. would cover it!
:shrug:
Jerry Rigoli NER CRB chairman

[JLawton]

Dick,

I'll volunteer to drive the pace car!! :)

[Greg Amy]

I'll volunteer to drive the pace car!! :)
Ten bucks says he and DiMinno "get together" anyway...

[Jeremy Billiel]

So the Atlanta division pays for their licensed F&C come to the track. What about the other volunteer positions?

What we as drivers are forgetting, that many times flaggers do not have the means, ability or desire to literally race, but they do enjoy being part of the "club" and enjoy the social side of the event.

Jerry - What if we put a mandatory $50 increase in the entry fee for the workers fund, that ultimately can help to pay for at least gas for the flaggers?

In New England we already do "pay" workers who do a good job by giving them TIPS, which is good for merchandise, gas cards, hotel room stays, etc... We can't forget that either.

[dickita15]

Dick,

I'll volunteer to drive the pace car!! :)

I think I can make that happen.

[Knestis]

I did pretty much every specialty at least once before I started driving, between '79 and '86 and, while I enjoyed most of them more than not being at the race track (old-school T&S sucked), I enjoy driving more than any of them. I don't even spectate at races much, unless it's a really cool event, it's really close, and it's not a big time/$$ production (e.g., GA at VIR when I lived in Greensboro and could go up just for the day).

I had a HUGE advantage when I started driving, since I knew how the systems work, knew the people, etc. But I'll tell you - I saw an even GREATER lack of understanding when I started my "second" racing career and did my school to get re-licensed in 2004. I talked to two other students who'd never even been at the track on a race weekend. They knew what HPDE-type events looked like, but had no idea about the SCCA, specialties, processes, etc.

(The caliber of DRIVING was much better this time around however, with the huge growth in track day opportunities. When I did my first school, most of the students knew the Club but had NEVER driving on-track.)

THAT SAID, I think it would be a great idea for Novice license programs to require that new drivers spend a couple of days out on the corners. It gives one an entirely different perspective on the relationship between flagger and driver, to be the piece of meat out there among the high-speed metal boxes.

K

[NutDriverRighty]

In response to the comment about T-shirts counting as payment for F&C, my wife will happily clean out all of my dresser drawers and send you the plethora of white T-shirts that I have. It's come to the point that I don't even take them anymore.
If it's an especially cool shirt or a cool event (like working the Petit), I'll take one, but otherwise they stay at the track.

[gran racing]

I'll preface this by saying I sincerely appreciate what volunteers do for our club and am very appreciative.


So, in general, racers would rather pay an additional $225. per event for workers?

You might not like the answers but for a significant number of people they'd turn to other clubs or racing businesses. Jerry, since you put a NER spin on it I can pretty much guarantee NASA North East would see an influx of new racers.


What we as drivers are forgetting, that many times flaggers do not have the means, ability or desire to literally race, but they do enjoy being part of the "club" and enjoy the social side of the event.

Excellent point. I don't care what organization you're talking about - American Cancer Society, American Red Cross, SCCA... - the reality is people volunteer because it benefits them in some way. That benefit could be because they enjoy the position, it makes them feel good to help others, they've been impacted by the cause in some manner, and so on. That's not a bad thing but is a reality.


Jerry - What if we put a mandatory $50 increase in the entry fee for the workers fund, that ultimately can help to pay for at least gas for the flaggers?

There are price points where people will turn to other options but in general people would rather pay a few extra bucks (probably not $50). I know when I was doing HPDEs there were two clubs I tried. One was a bit cheaper but it was necessary to work the corners for a session or two. The other one was a bit more expensive but drivers never had to work the corners. I did the less expensive option once and became a regular of the other organization.

[jhooten]

In 2008 I worked four weekends in Tech, Drove my SRT4 as pace car for one weekend, and worked a corner for a half day until the corner workers were able to make it to the track after the ice melted on the roads. It can be done.

Speaking of other clubs. NASA pays their workers. Their entry fees are the same or lower than "ours".

Raising entry fees causes the number of entries to go down, causing the hosting region to make less money, causing the entry fee to be raised again, causing entries to go down, causing...

[quadzjr]

THAT SAID, I think it would be a great idea for Novice license programs to require that new drivers spend a couple of days out on the corners. It gives one an entirely different perspective on the relationship between flagger and driver, to be the piece of meat out there among the high-speed metal boxes.

K

I believe that to be a great idea!

[1stGenBoy]

I'm with Jake on this one. I take care of at least two cars on a race weekend and sometimes more in addition to driving. I give back in other ways too. Race chairmain for a BIG vintage event ( 600 plus cars),ITAC ( until this year),Chief driving school instructor,region comp committee,etc,etc. I just don't have the time on a race weekend that I'm driving in to flag or help out in other ways. I also agree that has part of the Novice experience you should be required to flag or do something that gets you an understanding of what really goes on. The flip side to that is how do you enforce that with the pro schools?

[Jeremy Billiel]

So how much extra are drivers willing to pay to guarantee an event to drive at? The volunteer situation is getting to be a HUGE problem. Especially now given the economy...

We, as drivers, need to help work on a solution. I can tell you that in the North East the drivers are cheap asses when it comes to contributing to the workers fund. :shrug:

$25
$50
$75

[tnord]

or maybe the people putting together the schedule should just put fewer dates on the calendar. fewer race weekends consolidates both the driver entries, and the volunteers to make for better events without the need to pay workers, raise entry fees, etc....

i'm not really willing to pay much more. throwing money at this problem isn't necessarily the answer.

[Greg Amy]

or maybe the people putting together the schedule should just put fewer dates on the calendar. fewer race weekends consolidates both the driver entries, and the volunteers to make for better events without the need to pay workers, raise entry fees, etc....

i'm not really willing to pay much more. throwing money at this problem isn't necessarily the answer.
+ eleventybillion for all of that. Again.

It's gotten to the point now where you're not only getting a lot of VOLUNTEER burnout, you're even starting to see entrant/competitor burnout. That, right there, should be a big ole neon sign to the organizers.

[tnord]

+ eleventybillion for all of that. Again.

It's gotten to the point now where you're not only getting a lot of VOLUNTEER burnout, you're even starting to see entrant/competitor burnout. That, right there, should be a big ole neon sign to the organizers.

i've lobbied hard for this the past couple years, and seems like it's finally starting to swing that way in our division. myself and others were met with mucho resistance from the "old world" crowd that wouldn't give up dates and couldn't see beyond their own noses.

i imagine it's the same across the country.

[Butch Kummer]

So the Atlanta division pays for their licensed F&C come to the track. What about the other volunteer positions?

I had to actually do some work this morning but didn't want this to get lost in the ensuing discussion(s):

All volunteer specialties are eligible for our Worker Expense Reimbursement Program. Contracted positions (wrecker and ambulance people, track security, etc.) are not eligible. Since implementing the program we've had MUCH better success staffing events, but now the challenge is keeping our events profitable without raising entry fees to unreasonable levels.

It's always about trying to maintain a balance...

[gran racing]

myself and others were met with mucho resistance from the "old world" crowd that wouldn't give up dates and couldn't see beyond their own noses.

I know Mike Dickerson who used to work at the national office made this suggestion several times and received the same general reaction that Travis mentioned. Politics and SCCA regions often competiting with each other doesn't help much either.

[Jeremy Billiel]

+ eleventybillion for all of that. Again.

It's gotten to the point now where you're not only getting a lot of VOLUNTEER burnout, you're even starting to see entrant/competitor burnout. That, right there, should be a big ole neon sign to the organizers.

Holy Crap Greg and Trav agreed on something...

I agree 1 million percent as well, but here is another revelation. All the RE, CRB members are all volunteers as well. Based on some of the round rable discussions I have seen/heard at various venues, 2 things become obvious

1.The region is a club and it not the CEO's money (CEO being the head of the groups). If it were their money or their companies, the decisions I feel may be much different.

2. Some are not well versed in business.

Disclaimer: I am not taking any shots are NER members. The NARRC on the otherhand...

I have been thinking about this a lot since the annual meeting and I am going to begin working on a financial model for the NER at least on the price elasticity of events.

[tnord]

I know Mike Dickerson who used to work at the national office made this suggestion several times and received the same general reaction that Travis mentioned. Politics and SCCA regions often competiting with each other doesn't help much either.

I know Mike pretty well, and he's a guy that's not part of the problem.

Regions, in my experience, are absolutely terrible at working together to acheive a common goal. ie - CenDiv/GLDiv split, how has that worked out for you guys?

i don't mean to be insulting, but part of the problem is the qualifications of the people you have volunteering for these administrative/leadership roles. i don't mean to group EVERYONE together in this, as it seems Butch has done a good job, and we have a couple in our area (Scott Peterson, Bill Johnson, Jim Wheeler) who are high caliber as well, but.....

many of the people that really run the regions seem to have no actual real world experience that would give them the perspective and knowledge needed to make the directional and strategic type decisions that have far reaching implications beyond their respective regions. i've seen quality people TRY to get their nose in there and make a difference, but they're met with such resistance by the old guard that it becomes a undertaking that's just not worth the individual's time.....after all, this is supposed to be their fun/relaxing hobby......so they walk.

go ahead, flame away.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I heard a quote this weekend at the NER Annual Meeting that stuck with me. It was over some beers, while eating dinner and it was "damn, we are dealing with a 700k a year revenue generating business. Do you know how hard it is to make a 700k a year business?"

[gran racing]

I know Mike pretty well, and he's a guy that's not part of the problem.

I absolutely agree. He suggested a valid solution a while back of when the demand wasn't there.

[Andy Bettencourt]

How about this:

Can Regions take a look at each specialty and the available quantity of core/fully trained workers and redesign the 'allocation' of the assets?

Meaning this: If you spread out the skilled volunteers, you might be able to make room for 'event by event temporary' volunteers that can work in short bursts with little training.

This could create a pool of workers that could move into the skilled qualification while equally importantly allowing for an influx of 'weekly' workers. I am sure it would require a real scrub-down of available skillsets and a look at how to allocate resources in a more strategic manner...

[Wreckerboy]

Pencil me in as one of those guys who has worked and raced on the same weekend. On a typical EMRA race weekend I could be found as Chief of Tech in the morning, and on grid in the afternoon. Sometimes I also acted as Pace Car Driver, Race Chief, Head Cook and Bottle Washer and whatever else needed to be done. Between times I was out on track. A typical race day started with us (the wife and I) getting there as the gates opened and usually being the last people off the property at night. Easily a twelve plus hour day with no rest, not counting the administrative prep in the days/weeks leading up to the event.

I got a nominal stipend that usually covered gas for the van. I paid list price for entries just like everybody else. Discovering at the end of my tenure that most people thought I was racing for free was very illuminating. I just did it to give back to an organization filled with people who were/are my friends.

During the course of race morning it meant that if stragglers showed up in Tech late and had any issues that required my attention they might have to wait if I was scheduled to be out on track. Sometimes this resulted in people being pissed off because they thought it was their right to do so. Occasionally it resulted in me missing a practice or qualifying session. Heaven help me if the car needed any attention beyond routine things during the day. (Fortunately, I drive a Miata, so that isn't an issue. :D )

I did all of that for five years straight. Although I loved the job, the opportunity to talk with and help people, I got burned out by it.

Club Racing needs its volunteers to survive. The pool of volunteers is getting smaller and smaller and they are getting burned out. The nature of the entrant is changing to one of customer with the related sense of entitlements, and I do not like that. I plan to race in WDCR this year and I will go and volunteer if the time is available, because club racing needs all of our help to show and go.

[racer14itc]

This thread raises a lot of interesting points, many of which need no elaboration. That being said there is a lot to be gained by "giving back" to the club. I've worked the odd corner over the years and it certainly made me appreciate the effort our F&C folks put in each weekend. :happy204: And I'll go +1 on the "it's interesting what you can learn about driving by standing on a corner and watching the really good drivers go through it"!

But there are other ways that you can volunteer that are rewarding and educational as well. Volunteer to teach at a drivers school is at the top of my list. The more instructors there are, the higher the quality of instruction in general because of more 1 on 1 time available to the students. The bonus is that most people find that trying to teach something to someone else usually results in a better understanding of the subject by the teacher! :) And there is the immense satisfaction of watching someone else do something well that you taught them! This has happened to me time and time again and it never gets old. There is also the flip side of this, those students who either need more instruction before being given a license to race; it is the instructor's call in most cases and it is tough to tell that wide-eyed student that they're NOT ready. :014: That sucks but it's for everyone's benefit. Or the students for whom OSB (other sports beckon). These are all very important responsibilities for driving instructors. If any of you have ever been on track with someone who really didn't belong out there and wondered who the hell let them through drivers school, then you understand. If you volunteer to teach, here's your chance to keep that from happening to someone else (or yourself down the road!).

There are other specialties that always need help, such as Tech, Sound Control, Registration, etc. I think we as racers tend to get tunnel vision once we arrive at the track and sometimes don't understand or appreciate all that it takes to put on an event. After 5 years of putting on the Production Car Festival at VIR in October, which is merely one race group of a much larger race weekend, I have a new found apprecation of what it takes to put on a successful weekend for the racers.

After 15 years of driving, I've decided to enter the SIT (Stewards in Training) program. I've always wanted to see what went on behind the scenes at the races from the Stewards' perspective. For so many years I've heard comments from drivers like how "Steward so and so is a no-good, rotten, clueless SOB" and by entering the SIT program and working toward becoming one of those no-good rotten, clueless SOBs maybe I can make future events better. Who knows.

In sum, nobody should be forced to volunteer at any event, IMHO. Working corners for novice permit holders is more of an educational component in my mind, so that is a different situation. But there is a lot to be gained for drivers to work events and it helps ensure that the club will sustain through this difficult economy. Most of us could scratch off one or two events a year and use those weekends to help out the club that we all enjoy so much.

Just my $0.02,

MC

[Knestis]

>> After 15 years of driving, I've decided to enter the SIT (Stewards in Training) program.

I'm enrolled in the Steward Haters In Training program. It's new, started by a disgruntled group of drivers from the New Orleans area (the NO Steward Haters In Training). Other chapters include Ohio (OH) and Denver/I-25/PanAm (DIP).

K

[racer14itc]

>> After 15 years of driving, I've decided to enter the SIT (Stewards in Training) program.

I'm enrolled in the Steward Haters In Training program. It's new, started by a disgruntled group of drivers from the New Orleans area (the NO Steward Haters In Training). Other chapters include Ohio (OH) and Denver/I-25/PanAm (DIP).

K

Now that's funny!!! :023:

See ya at the track (hopefully not as a Steward...ha, ha)

MC

[Ed Funk]

Kirk, are you taking over my job of being a wise ass??

My SIL, Karen Peterson (Grid chief NER), calls it the Stewards Helper In Training.

[jjjanos]

+ eleventybillion for all of that. Again.

It's gotten to the point now where you're not only getting a lot of VOLUNTEER burnout, you're even starting to see entrant/competitor burnout. That, right there, should be a big ole neon sign to the organizers.

Except that when it comes time to set the schedules - the masses don't want to give up a weekend. MARRS races once/month at Summit Point from April to October and that's exactly what our drivers want us to do - and we support (so far) that level of participation.

Drop/add a race at NHIS or LMP and it won't have much impact on our car count because NEDIV isn't a single body - it's tri-polar: New England (NHIS/LMP), DC (SPR) and the West (WGI/NL). There isn't that much cross-over and if you slash the schedule by fifty percent, DC drivers aren't going to travel enmasse to Lime Rock and MA-based drivers aren't going to travel enmasse to Summit Point. The only winners will be Pocono and NJMP.

Now, if you want to cut the burnout on workers - drop Nationals. Allocate Runoff-paying events the same way we do Nationals (i.e. one per track), make it a normal weekend and let EVERYBODY play. That would cut out almost 25% of the events immediately (8 Nationals out of 35 races total in NEDIV).

[ner88]

Dave
Where do you think NASA would get their volunteers?

The majority of volunteers are not racecar driver want a bees.
There are a limited number of workers, most don't do it for the gifts or money, they have a passion for the sport just like you and me.
I find in funny that many use the excuse that they are too busy, sorry bad excuse.
Most weekends I have three cars on the track and I still found time to be a racechair, pacecar driver, gas pump jockey and school instructor, just to name a few.
At the enduro at NHMS I drove the first half of the race, got out and manned the pacecar for the rest of the race.
I do this because I want to race and if someone dosen't step up there will be no racing.
Have you ever notice how many of the same workers you see at NHMS, LRP, NJMP or the Glen? When will they reach burnout?
We need new blood, now!
NER has lost our chief of timing and scoring, after three years of looking for a replacement, we have no one! Where do we find someone? Take it from someone who knows, they are not on Craigs list!
I know, it's not your problem, well, guess what, it is.

Jerry

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jerry,

As someone who has volunteered on many levels, I want to ask that you take a step back. In your short tenure in your position you have taken on a real 'us against them' attitude that can foster inside the local committees when two sides of an issue aren't well represented.

How about we change the direction and really try and come up some solutions. Lets lay out YOUR specific needs and see if we can help you solve them.

Telling people that they can't be too busy isn't accurate nor is it productive. People give their reasons, let's address them and come up with solutions instead of shouting them down.

[mustanghammer]

When I am at the track, I want to be there as a racer. It is my mini-vacatiion from life and that is what I want and need. I dreamed about doing this for a long time before I could afford to actually do it. I would hope that those involved in putting on the race have the same desire that I do and that they are enjoying themselves too.

That said I haven't forgotten that this is a volunteer organization so I serve on my local BOD. So, while I am not standing on a corner station in 100+ degree weather I am doing my part to see that my club make good financial decisions and promotes Solo and Club Racing programs that work for the members we serve.

For me the SCCA represents an opportunity to be involved in something that is bigger than yourself. There are many ways to serve and make it better. It could be on a corner station or in an administrative function. Both are important.

Great conversation!

[racer_tim]

I love working the corners - especially on a National w/e or a vintage race. These days - at least in the SEDiv - most host regions are paying enough to cover a hotel room for the weekend and providing meals. The gas is really the only expense.

I strongly encourage it! After all, it's the 2nd best seat in the house!

What regions pay workers? We get a free lunch, and maybe a dinner on Friday night on a 3 day weekend?

If SCCA is paying their workers, then they (workers) are whores. If I was a driver in a region that paid their workers, I would have to assume that some of your entry fee is going to pay for the workers that are out on the track watching your butt.

I started out as a "worker" in 1977 when I started out flagging. I went through drivers school in 1992 and have been racing off and on since then. I volunteer (again I said VOLUNTEER) as a worker because I love the sport, and friendships that I have through the SCCA.

There are other groups that pay their "workers" and you get what you pay for.

[raffaelli]

NER has lost our chief of timing and scoring, after three years of looking for a replacement, we have no one!
Jerry


Linda?

[jumbojimbo]

I've got an odd perspective since I grew up with my Dad working at Riverside, so I'm like a legacy worker. Worker parties at the Shakey's on Iowa. Nothing funnier than some drunk flagger in a white cowboy hat from SFR blowing his whistle and yelling "Everybody out of the pool."

Then I ran road rallies for years where the group was small and we traded off working thru the year. I moved to Solo and Rallycross where everyone works. Now I'm racing and the split between workers and drivers reminds me of a junior high dance. Ewww, they have cooties. I just wasn't prepared for such an us and them feeling at my first race. Hey, I'm one of you, really.

I agree that the race schedule doesn't help. Take a look at the NASA Great Lakes schedule, they run once a month pretty much the 2nd weekend of the month. Compare that to SCCA schedule. We've got a bunch of races jammed up a the beginning of the year and again at the end of the year. Nothing in the summer.

So as a driver who might want to work I'm having trouble making it work. I'd have to be gone two weekends in a row if I wanted to run one weekend and work another. That's simply not going to happen. Like someone else said, if I am going to take that kind of heat at home I'm damn well going to be driving.

Crap, that gives me an idea, I should work the NASA races in June, July and Aug when SCCA doesn't have jack on the schedule.

One problem with volunteering on a weekend when I race is that while I do tend to have a lot of down time I can't be sure. If I commit to work and the car breaks, what happens then? I realize that any time people can spare to work helps but is it really any help if you can't be sure they will show up? I suppose if 10 people volunteered and 6 showed up it all works out, but what if only 2 show up? In the long run is it worth the hassle for a couple of workers?

I take my hat off to anyone who has the energy to be Superman on a race weekend. But that's not me. It takes me most of a week to recover from a race weekend as it is. You can insult me if it makes you feel better but it's not going to change my situation.

Long story short, we're barking up the wrong tree if we think drivers are going to provide a big pool of workers. If they had extra time or money they'd spend on the race car. Let's face it, most of us are idiots who would spend every second and dime on the car if we didn't have someone with self control stopping us.

One idea might be to contact drivers whose license is expiring and see if they want to stay involved. Those are people who want to be involved but maybe just don't quite have the time or money to dump into a car.

[dickita15]

I am posting this for Leigh McBride

Andy Bettencourt says:
How about we change the direction and really try and come up some solutions. Lets lay out YOUR specific needs and see if we can help you solve them.

Telling people that they can't be too busy isn't accurate nor is it productive. People give their reasons, let's address them and come up with solutions instead of shouting them down.

What Andy says! I've been reading this thread with interest. I am one of the Co-Chiefs of Flagging and Communications for NER. I presented some information at the NER annual meeting last weekend on our flagger numbers (recruitment and retention). The numbers and trends are pretty dismal, but they are what they are, and we need to find productive solutions. This is not a problem specific to NER but rather exists through SCCA. No region seems to have been able to come up with a complete "fix". But I'd like to share my take on the situation with you. After all, you (drivers) are the reason we're around!

We realize that many factors influence whether an individual will choose to come flagging on any given day or weekend. People may want to spend time with their families, have responsibilities at home or work, have other interests, or not be able to afford to make the trip. These are all perfectly valid reasons. Most of these variables are out of the Flag Chief's hands. The one thing we can control is whether they have a good enough time flagging so that if they have the opportunity to flag, they will want to flag. I personally do not suggest or support that drivers augment our flagging pool on weekends they are racing. Most drivers don't want to be flaggers (even on their non-racing weekends) and that is fine, I have no problem with that. We all have our own interests. But­-and this is a big but­-I know there is a pool of drivers out there, however small, who want to and can (and some do) flag on some of their non-racing weekends, as they are able. We have about 5 drivers who put on their flagging hats when they aren't racing and they are valued members of our community.

Recruiting new flaggers is a difficult task. Our best recruitment tool continues to be the experienced flagger who brings a friend, family member, neighbor or co-worker along. What I am proposing is that drivers join us in recruiting new flaggers as they are able. I'm not talking about crew or spouses coming out to work a session or two (that's not fair to the drivers and doesn't really help the flaggers out much). I'm talking about having drivers bring, the way so many of us flaggers have, a friend, neighbor or co-worker to the track specifically to flag (or bring themselves on a non-racing weekend). A couple of drivers have already done this for us, but we need more. If only 2% of the 700 drivers in NER brought one new person to the track just to flag, we would consider that a huge success. That would give us 14 new flaggers in one season, which is a lot. Last year we had 19 new flaggers all season, 14 more would almost double that. It would then be our responsibility, as flaggers, to do what we can to make them want to come back again and again.

Leigh



Leigh McBride
Co-Chief, Flagging & Communications
New England Region
[email protected] ([email protected])

[Greg Amy]

Leigh (via Dick?) - Good ideas! Which makes me think of yet another variation of that.

Several of "us drivers" noted above that we don't want to flag on our 'off' weekends because of time and money. It's reasonable to expect that those limitations also apply to volunteers as well. So there's something that "us drivers" can do to at least address the latter.

Every time I tow to the track - every time - I have at least one empty seat in my Excursion. Sometimes three or four. Further, I always cover the accommodations for my friends/crew and I usually have at least a floor in my hotel room for a bedroll, if not an opportunity of an empty bed in a double room. And, I bet I'm not alone. There is absolutely no reason why that space - which costs nothing extra - shouldn't be made available to volunteer F&C folks, so that at least they don't have to drive themselves and pay for their own fuel and hotels.

So, one opportunity for us to help is to devise some kind of "ride/hotel share" system, where competitors can make those spaces available for our volunteers. I don't have any concrete suggestions for this - the idea just popped up after reading Leigh's note - but if we can address the costs factor for our volunteers I'd suggest the time factor may work itself out...

GA

[JLawton]

I am posting this for Leigh McBride

Andy Bettencourt says:
How about we change the direction and really try and come up some solutions. Lets lay out YOUR specific needs and see if we can help you solve them.

Telling people that they can't be too busy isn't accurate nor is it productive. People give their reasons, let's address them and come up with solutions instead of shouting them down.

What Andy says! I've been reading this thread with interest. I am one of the Co-Chiefs of Flagging and Communications for NER. I presented some information at the NER annual meeting last weekend on our flagger numbers (recruitment and retention). The numbers and trends are pretty dismal, but they are what they are, and we need to find productive solutions. This is not a problem specific to NER but rather exists through SCCA. No region seems to have been able to come up with a complete "fix". But I'd like to share my take on the situation with you. After all, you (drivers) are the reason we're around!

We realize that many factors influence whether an individual will choose to come flagging on any given day or weekend. People may want to spend time with their families, have responsibilities at home or work, have other interests, or not be able to afford to make the trip. These are all perfectly valid reasons. Most of these variables are out of the Flag Chief's hands. The one thing we can control is whether they have a good enough time flagging so that if they have the opportunity to flag, they will want to flag. I personally do not suggest or support that drivers augment our flagging pool on weekends they are racing. Most drivers don't want to be flaggers (even on their non-racing weekends) and that is fine, I have no problem with that. We all have our own interests. But­-and this is a big but­-I know there is a pool of drivers out there, however small, who want to and can (and some do) flag on some of their non-racing weekends, as they are able. We have about 5 drivers who put on their flagging hats when they aren't racing and they are valued members of our community.

Recruiting new flaggers is a difficult task. Our best recruitment tool continues to be the experienced flagger who brings a friend, family member, neighbor or co-worker along. What I am proposing is that drivers join us in recruiting new flaggers as they are able. I'm not talking about crew or spouses coming out to work a session or two (that's not fair to the drivers and doesn't really help the flaggers out much). I'm talking about having drivers bring, the way so many of us flaggers have, a friend, neighbor or co-worker to the track specifically to flag (or bring themselves on a non-racing weekend). A couple of drivers have already done this for us, but we need more. If only 2% of the 700 drivers in NER brought one new person to the track just to flag, we would consider that a huge success. That would give us 14 new flaggers in one season, which is a lot. Last year we had 19 new flaggers all season, 14 more would almost double that. It would then be our responsibility, as flaggers, to do what we can to make them want to come back again and again.

Leigh



Leigh McBride
Co-Chief, Flagging & Communications
New England Region
[email protected] ([email protected])


Well said Leigh.

I don't think getting drivers to work on their race weekends is answer. Look what kind of car I drive. I spend the whole friggen weekend working on the damn thing!! :eek: We don't ALL drive Miatas.......

[JLawton]

I think I can make that happen.



Don't tease me Dick!!!

[dominojd]

Ten bucks says he and DiMinno "get together" anyway...

And he wouldn't even be driving the pace in our race group? :shrug:

[gran racing]

Take it from someone who knows, they are not on Craigs list!

Now there's an idea! Why wouldn’t that be a good place? Maybe it's time to post another Ad then? Craig’s list could be a viable way to draw some new interest.

I could be off with this but wonder if it wouldn't be helpful to replace the word volunteer with something else. When I hear volunteer, I think I'm doing the organization some type of favor. These positions offer people the opportunity to become a part of something really cool.

Leigh, nicely said.


For the life of me I do not understand why we don’t use our Speed World Challenge tool better when they are at the track. The past two years I had to deliver something to the truck while at Lime Rock and it took forever to locate it. My wife and I walked by it a few times not even noticing it, staff had no clue where it was, and when we did find it very little if anything was there to explain the club or various opportunities – et hm, potential volunteers. It just seems like such a waste of a great opportunity. And yeah, I’d happily volunteer for something like that.

There are numerous ideas people have but often when mentioned, they receive significant resistance of even being considered. I think some of that stems from the whole old guard aspect. Often times when ideas are mentioned it gets met with “don’t you think we have already tried that or a quick no! That won’t work.” Then there’s people who try to lay a guilt trip on others for not doing as much as they think is enough. I know I personally experienced that, got frustrated and decided to try to help the club in a different way.

[Ed Funk]

:cool:I'm betting that Jeff can drive the pace car faster than Joe!:o

[Greg Amy]

:cool:I'm betting that Jeff can drive the pace car faster than Joe!:o
And I'll bet you you're wrong...

IT'S ON!!!

:happy204:

[Jeremy Billiel]

See we accomplished something with this thread. We already have a pace car volunteer.

[Jeremy Billiel]

It should also be noted that this year Flatout Motorsports sponsored the NER Worker of the Year and the prize was an arrive and drive for a PDX in one of their Miatas. That was a fantastic prize and FOM should be given credit for stepping up to the plate and giving back to the NER worker community.

:smilie_pokal::smilie_pokal:

[ronin12]

I am a flagger for NER, and do it for the passion of the sport. I also have hopes of one day trading my whites for a driving suit:D. As for now I spend my time flagging, crewing, working 2 jobs and being a caregiver and I plan on making most of the events this year. The point of my post is one of my jobs is at OnTrack Karting and for the past 2 years I have e-mailed board members with the possibility of using our track or when we have events like the 6 hour enduro on March 1 as a way to recruit more members I never get a response or if I do it was to be patient that they are busy and will get back to me. Well as I stated I am very busy also and I found the time to come up with an idea that might get some more members but was disregarded. It's a shame cause as mentioned with worker burnout and the state of the economy without some new blood in the corps it might be a tight year.

[shwah]

Since I expect to drive fewer events this year, I hope to work some of them - for the first time. I look forward to it.

[lateapex911]

When i think of drivers who do the most obvious "work", I think of my friend Grant McStay. At teh NARRC Runoffs this year, he decided not to race due to the slimy weather, and flagged instead.

The thought follows, why can't we all be more like Grant?

Then it hit me: Eileen. Grants wife is a real fan of the sport. She likes being at the track. She supports grants racing and flagging, and other than a few cats, they have no kids.

I'd bet that fewer that 5% of us have that setup. For most of us, there is a real huge cost to racing that is far beyond financial. I'd bet most racers have strict limitations on time away. They have birthday parties for kids, soccer games for kids, gymnastics, swimming practices, and homework for kids to attend to.

A few decades ago, it was a different story, and the balance of power in the home wasn't so "Balanced". Some of us have supportive families, families who think it's cool. Others don't. Most, I bet, fall on the "limited" side of the equation in that dept.


The point regarding the World Challenge trailer at the pro events is SO true. I've often thought that that trailer sitting empty all day is such a waste. Here's this GREAT chance to talk to the pre qualified interested public, get them involved, offer options and excitement, yet, we seemingly can't be bothered.

With all the money we spend on the Pro racing division and the WC program, why couldn't we spend a couple thou more to get a couple Driving sim games, seats, wheels, etc, and set up the track (Lime Rock for the Lime Rock rounds, etc) for people to drive? Make the car "models" the WC Realtime or Bimmerworld cars, and get people involved! Talk to them about how they can actually get on a real track, whether as flaggers or techs or drivers.

That empty "hospitality" trailer's a HUGE waste of resources and opportunity in my eyes.

[Jeremy Billiel]

When i think of drivers who do the most obvious "work", I think of my friend Grant McStay. At teh NARRC Runoffs this year, he decided not to race due to the slimy weather, and flagged instead.

The thought follows, why can't we all be more like Grant?

Then it hit me: Eileen. Grants wife is a real fan of the sport. She likes being at the track. She supports grants racing and flagging, and other than a few cats, they have no kids.

I'd bet that fewer that 5% of us have that setup. For most of us, there is a real huge cost to racing that is far beyond financial. I'd bet most racers have strict limitations on time away. They have birthday parties for kids, soccer games for kids, gymnastics, swimming practices, and homework for kids to attend to.

A few decades ago, it was a different story, and the balance of power in the home wasn't so "Balanced". Some of us have supportive families, families who think it's cool. Others don't. Most, I bet, fall on the "limited" side of the equation in that dept.


The point regarding the World Challenge trailer at the pro events is SO true. I've often thought that that trailer sitting empty all day is such a waste. Here's this GREAT chance to talk to the pre qualified interested public, get them involved, offer options and excitement, yet, we seemingly can't be bothered.

With all the money we spend on the Pro racing division and the WC program, why couldn't we spend a couple thou more to get a couple Driving sim games, seats, wheels, etc, and set up the track (Lime Rock for the Lime Rock rounds, etc) for people to drive? Make the car "models" the WC Realtime or Bimmerworld cars, and get people involved! Talk to them about how they can actually get on a real track, whether as flaggers or techs or drivers.

That empty "hospitality" trailer's a HUGE waste of resources and opportunity in my eyes.

All great points Jake. Here is your answer.

Because Pro is a profit making entity and the clubs are not suppose to make profit for tax or club reasons. If I were the chief for a day and could run this "club" as a business (i.e profit) there are so many ways that it would be "better".

[gran racing]

So you're saying that regions couldn't have a paddock spot or piece of the World Challenge area? The club itself can't do anything to draw new members there? They are not allowed to talk or promote SCCA and future drivers? Or they can't even have literature about the club? Nothing? Cause that's what's happening at the track.

I'll call the national office / World Challenge folks to see what might be possible.

[jjjanos]

All great points Jake. Here is your answer.

Because Pro is a profit making entity and the clubs are not suppose to make profit for tax or club reasons. If I were the chief for a day and could run this "club" as a business (i.e profit) there are so many ways that it would be "better".

Incorrect. Tax lawyers will point out the errors in the details, but essentially -

Profit = Income less expenses (for-profit corporations)
Surplus = Income less expenses (not-for- and non-profit corporations)

If a NFP or NP corporation generates surplus from an activity not part of its mission statement, then the IRS may declare that profit and subject to tax. (E.g. A church owns an apartment building and rents it at below-market rates as part of its mission to help the poor = surplus. A church owns an apartment building and just rents it = profit and subject to tax. A bunch of churches in DC got in trouble over this because of buildings that were left to them as bequests).

Profits may be distributed to the owners in the form of cash payments.
Surplus can only be used to further the goals of the club/charity.

Pro-racing pays tax because it is organized as a distinct corporation, but club pays no tax on income transferred to club (and wouldn't anyway because of the DRD for wholly-owned subsidiaries, but if we owned only 60%, we still wouldn't pay tax on the transferred income.). If the club took over the functions of Pro internally, the profit would be called surplus and not subject to tax. SCCA's mission says something about "promoting a love of sports cars and performance automobiles", i.e. auto-erotica. I would say organizing pro racing events falls under that mission.

[jjjanos]

So you're saying that regions couldn't have a paddock spot or piece of the World Challenge area? The club itself can't do anything to draw new members there? They are not allowed to talk or promote SCCA and future drivers? Or they can't even have literature about the club? Nothing? Cause that's what's happening at the track.

I'll call the national office / World Challenge folks to see what might be possible.

One region is typically contracted by the promoter to provide worker support for pro events. Payment can be in any form - cash/ reduced track rental/ guaranteed dates/ volunteer beverages/ a booth/ etc.

When DC staffed the DCGP, we specified cash, a booth, food, beverages and shirts.

What WC does in its area is subject to the contract between Pro and the promoter.

[dickita15]

For the life of me I do not understand why we don’t use our Speed World Challenge tool better when they are at the track.

Good idea Dave, and I will use this as a jumping off point to mention that Brian Meglioa, who is on the NER BOD is heading up a new publicity marketing group integrating Pit Talk, the regions website and other recruiting methods. Given Brian’s technical savvy I do not think being a part of this new group will require many if any face to face meetings. If any of you in New England this may a way you can make the club better contact Brian. His contact info is at NER.org.

[gran racing]

That would be cool. I'll have to remember to contact Brian about it. (He and I are doing a "how to start racing" class at a vocational school in March. Should be fun.)

[raffaelli]

Many times I have walked past the SCCA booth at LRP during the pro series events to find no one there. This we particularly discouraging to me as I was trying to find out how to get started after repeated non-returned calls and emails to the people I found on the NYR website. Especially the day I took my wife to see what it was about and there was no one to speak to. In general, I find that SCCA does not do a great job at new member recruitment. I think a booth with a couple of cars, some flags, a TS computer, maybe even a quick tour would go a long way.

I think the racers and volunteers actually recruited me. One of the grid workers at LRP one day said to me ‘When are you going to join me on this side of the fence?’; Jake G getting in my M and showing me the ropes a bit on the track and around the paddock; and overhearing the following conversation Person 1 “Look at how slow that guy is (laugh).” Person 2 “Yeah but, he is out there.” All of that helped push me over the edge. Maybe by design, not sure. Funny how that all happened on the same day.

FOM recruited a buddy of mine. I brought him to LRP. FOM’s crew talked to him about SM and racing in general. He is now building a Mustang for AS.

Jeff L, Dick P, Joe D, Greg A, Andy B, Kelly (SM prep guy) and Matt K all recruited my crew chief. He showed up to the school to help out. Saw how ‘cool’ those guys were to him all weekend. He committed to me as crew chief for 09. He is currently building a CRX to solo this summer and club race next.

Linda L and her main squeeze Bart recruited my wife. She sat with me in T&S during the NARRC Runoffs this year when I decided to bail and not race. Since then she has mentioned she wants to do that again and possibly work in communications. She (we) has acquired amateur radio license to prep. We are trying to clear our schedule to do the Flagging school in March. We view this as a family event, time at the track does not cost me any family time equity (well, at least not that much anyway).

[lateapex911]

We are trying to clear our schedule to do the Flagging school in March. We view this as a family event, time at the track does not cost me any family time equity (well, at least not that much anyway).


You're very lucky in that regard...many balance the expense of racing up against the expense of divorce.

[Greg Amy]

...many balance the expense of racing up against the expense of divorce quid pro quo things that we really, really, really don't want to do.

Just sayin'.

;)

[dickita15]

Ah the good old days when you knew who wore the pants in the family.
Seriously back when I flagged a lot there were couples, engaged, that came out regularly and yes he was more into it than her. We would never see them again after the wedding.:cool:

[Ed Funk]

You're very lucky in that regard...many balance the expense of racing up against the expense of divorce.

When we got married, my racing was cut in half, 'cause she had her desirable butt in the Kirkey!:) I'm one of the lucky ones!!:smilie_pokal:

[67ITB]

So how much extra are drivers willing to pay to guarantee an event to drive at? The volunteer situation is getting to be a HUGE problem. Especially now given the economy...

We, as drivers, need to help work on a solution. I can tell you that in the North East the drivers are cheap asses when it comes to contributing to the workers fund. :shrug:

$25
$50
$75

This surprises me. Call me naive!!!!
Ever since I started Club racing I have made it a point of making a "worker" contribution of 20-25 buck per race. (as many of you know I am NOT finiancally well off, I am a Government employee)
Looking at what we spend on this hobby I always looked at that $$ as well spent so I can play, and not have to worry about working course....... when the car needs to have a tranny swapped out between qualifying and the race....... Or the thermostat craps out....... Or the front wheel bearings crap out.......

I started out autocrossing for years and it was no fun to have to run from the car, to go work (in the rain or heat) for a session, back to work on the car, and then out to race again.....and try to grab a bite to eat or drink....... So that 20-25 bucks if priceless for piece of mind. and helps to make my weekend a little more relaxing.


Matt

[BruceG]

Matt...do you think it's just a question of money or have folks lost interest in Flagging with their busy lives?

Bruce

[67ITB]

Bruce,

Let me start by saying that I don't think I know enough about this situation to speak for anyone else, But I would imagine its both. Life gets busy, and if there is either a lack of money, or a lack of time they will both weigh in on someones decision to come out and play or not.

The more obstacles that someone has to overcome the more opportunities there are for them to decide to stay home.

Matt

[gizmo83]

I have not been involved in this sport for very long so please excuse my ignorance but... I am a driver in training and as I waited for schools last year I got hooked on flagging on my 'off' weekends. I just wanted to give an opinion on something that was brought up earlier; I drove to New Hampshire from New York by myself for a three day weekend last year and slept in my car in order to afford the excursion!! An offer of a floor for my sleeping bag or company for the evening would have been great!! After the workers party on Friday and Saturday I read a book by lantern sitting by my car door! This was my choice and I really had a great weekend but it could have been even more fun! I worked the corners because someone in my first school said it was the best way to learn to drive the corners and I did learn alot, however sitting with a veteran driver and getting advice could have been priceless! This year I hope to be in the car a lot more then on the corners but I do feel my experience was invaluable. When you are in the drivers' schools everyone is so free with stories and tips...that would be a great help to novices after a days race even if it is given while they are working on their cars and getting ready for the next days race!
Denise VanBuren

[Greg Amy]

An offer of a floor for my sleeping bag or company for the evening would have been great!!
All volunteers can consider this an open offer, to ride with Kakashi to any events we attend, and take advantage of any open accomodations we may have. We tow from Middletown, CT.

In '09 we may actually try to save some coin by sleeping in the enclosed trailer a few times. And, in truth, I prefer "camping at the track as long as there's showers: no travel time, beer and company is right there at the track, and occasionally you can get Fred to fall off the back of a golf kart and crack open his skull to add to the excitement!

GA

[BruceG]

:cavallo:
I have not been involved in this sport for very long so please excuse my ignorance but... I am a driver in training and as I waited for schools last year I got hooked on flagging on my 'off' weekends. I just wanted to give an opinion on something that was brought up earlier; I drove to New Hampshire from New York by myself for a three day weekend last year and slept in my car in order to afford the excursion!! An offer of a floor for my sleeping bag or company for the evening would have been great!! After the workers party on Friday and Saturday I read a book by lantern sitting by my car door! This was my choice and I really had a great weekend but it could have been even more fun! I worked the corners because someone in my first school said it was the best way to learn to drive the corners and I did learn alot, however sitting with a veteran driver and getting advice could have been priceless! This year I hope to be in the car a lot more then on the corners but I do feel my experience was invaluable. When you are in the drivers' schools everyone is so free with stories and tips...that would be a great help to novices after a days race even if it is given while they are working on their cars and getting ready for the next days race!
Denise VanBuren

This is a sad(and admirable) story. No wonder we are having problems retaining corner workers. At LRP, there is a beautiful building in the upper lot that Skippy sometimes uses for training that has restrooms(no showers) but is really clean and even has a microwave, I think. Too bad SCCA and LRP can't come to some arrangement so that corner workers don't have to sleep in their cars!:cavallo:

[NutDriverRighty]

Denise,
Thank you for a great example of some of the sacrifices that volunteers of ALL specialties make to be at the track. Greg, thanks for the offer of a ride and/or a floor to sleep on.
I've been working corners for 6 years now. The #1 thing that keeps me coming back is a feeling of appreciation. For someone, whether they be crew, driver, official, or whatever, to come and say something means the world to me. On the flip-side of the same coin is NOT feeling appreciated. Having water brought to the corners by the region on a 100* day, only to find mud in the bottom of the cooler that we were drinking from (and we were drinking the water IN the cooler, NOT from water bottles in the cooler) was pretty upsetting. Running us into the ground with no breaks, cuttting lunch breaks short, etc. are things that make me question why I'm there. Don't forget, if there are cars that need to be picked-up at the end of the last session before lunch or the last session of the day, we stay and help clean it up. This may mean our NOT getting a break or NOT getting a meal. (There have been times that the meals were so bad at one particular track that the volunteers walked-out)
I take a week of vacation every year to work at the Petit LeMans. It's very hard to staff the events Tuesday and Wednesday, so I'm there. I usually try to get a break and just spectate for the rest of the week, but that isn't always possible.
IMHO, word-of-mouth of having a good time is where we get and maintain our volunteers. I've actually heard a local car owner say, "you'll never see 'Thanks Workers' on MY car! Those people suck!". Grab a volunteer and give them a bottle of water, a soda (a beer after hours) and tell them that you appreciate them. Tell them about your car. Share stories with them. Ask them where they worked today and how your car looked. Tell them where you're having problems and they'll sometimes find out who worked there so they can tell you what they saw. I helped a guy in an F500 car knock a second off of his lap times because he was locking his LF into T7 and couldn't see it/didn't know it. Move the braking point back a few feet and his entrance, apex, and acceleration point all improved. Just an example of how sharing with us might be beneficial to you as well.
For me, a simple acknowledgement that I am there and working for the greater good AND it's appreciated will keep me coming back for more 100+* weekends, more rain weekends, and more frigid weekends that $80 for gas money, a motel room, a T-shirt, etc.

Scott Franklin

[trobbins]

Ever since I have been involved with the track I call our home track . Waterford Hills .
I have been involved with volunteering my time . That is how our club survives though . It is member owned .
In fact it is a requirement for our novice drivers to have so many hours of volunteer time to get their full competition license .
This past season I made a bigger commitment though .
I worked F&C the whole season at every race including our vintage race as well as the Detroit G.P. and became a corner captain too .
This all came at a price though . This meant a very limited schedual of driving for myself .
Only two co-driver races and I ran the vintage weekend feature race .
I guess my point is that it is one or the other since it is tough for most to do both .

[Ed Funk]

All volunteers can consider this an open offer, to ride with Kakashi to any events we attend, and take advantage of any open accomodations we may have. We tow from Middletown, CT.

In '09 we may actually try to save some coin by sleeping in the enclosed trailer a few times. And, in truth, I prefer "camping at the track as long as there's showers: no travel time, beer and company is right there at the track, and occasionally you can get Fred to fall off the back of a golf kart and crack open his skull to add to the excitement!

GA

Good idea, we could provide transport and at least some kind of accomadations. We haven't figured out our schedule but will be doing at least a couple "road trips".

Is there a worker forum where availability could be posted? Or how do we let the workers know what we offer?

[LMcB]

Thanks, Greg and Ed, for offering to provide transportation and maybe some primitive accommodations to workers going to races. I also think it would be a great way for flaggers (and other workers) to get to know drivers better. It also shows, in a very cool way, how much appreciation you have for what the workers do. I love the idea.

How about if we set up a forum on the NER website called Worker Transportation. Drivers can post rides and accommodations they have available and from where, and workers can check the forum for what they need. That way they can contact drivers directly…no middleman required.

I would be willing to post a little reminder message a couple of weeks before each NER event asking for drivers to post information.

What do you think of this idea?

Leigh

[Greg Amy]

What do you think of this idea?
I think it's a great idea, especially if you send us links so we can update our status... <wink>

[JLawton]

Thanks, Greg and Ed, for offering to provide transportation and maybe some primitive accommodations to workers going to races. I also think it would be a great way for flaggers (and other workers) to get to know drivers better. It also shows, in a very cool way, how much appreciation you have for what the workers do. I love the idea.

How about if we set up a forum on the NER website called Worker Transportation. Drivers can post rides and accommodations they have available and from where, and workers can check the forum for what they need. That way they can contact drivers directly…no middleman required.

I would be willing to post a little reminder message a couple of weeks before each NER event asking for drivers to post information.

What do you think of this idea?

Leigh

Leigh,
That's a great idea. Also, if there is anything else we can help with. Does something need to be transported to the track, looking for a donation of something specific (a pop up, a cooler, mechanics gloves, etc) I always donate to the worker fund but as some have said that's not all that's needed.




I have not been involved in this sport for very long so please excuse my ignorance but... I am a driver in training and as I waited for schools last year I got hooked on flagging on my 'off' weekends. I just wanted to give an opinion on something that was brought up earlier; I drove to New Hampshire from New York by myself for a three day weekend last year and slept in my car in order to afford the excursion!! An offer of a floor for my sleeping bag or company for the evening would have been great!! After the workers party on Friday and Saturday I read a book by lantern sitting by my car door! This was my choice and I really had a great weekend but it could have been even more fun! I worked the corners because someone in my first school said it was the best way to learn to drive the corners and I did learn alot, however sitting with a veteran driver and getting advice could have been priceless! This year I hope to be in the car a lot more then on the corners but I do feel my experience was invaluable. When you are in the drivers' schools everyone is so free with stories and tips...that would be a great help to novices after a days race even if it is given while they are working on their cars and getting ready for the next days race!
Denise VanBuren


Denise, (on a side note)
Don't be afraid to approach drivers, especially those in your class. If you're not sure who they are you can ask some of the experienced workers. We're always willing to help out new drivers (as drivers, we all have big egos and like to talk about our sport!! :cool:) We usually hang out in the garage until late. (

What kind of car are you driving? Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[dlg208]

Flagging is a nice break over driving.

You don't have to tow a bunch of equipment.
Free beer from drivers.
Plenty of camaraderie with your fellow flaggers.

The 1st & last people at the party are F&C
If you've never tried it...You might like it:023:

I generally do about as many SCCA weekends as I race. (along with IRL & vintage)
It's easy for me to drive the regionals and flag the nationals.

[LMcB]

Every time I tow to the track - every time - I have at least one empty seat in my Excursion. Sometimes three or four. Further, I always cover the accommodations for my friends/crew and I usually have at least a floor in my hotel room for a bedroll, if not an opportunity of an empty bed in a double room. And, I bet I'm not alone. There is absolutely no reason why that space - which costs nothing extra - shouldn't be made available to volunteer F&C folks, so that at least they don't have to drive themselves and pay for their own fuel and hotels.

So, one opportunity for us to help is to devise some kind of "ride/hotel share" system, where competitors can make those spaces available for our volunteers. I don't have any concrete suggestions for this - the idea just popped up after reading Leigh's note - but if we can address the costs factor for our volunteers I'd suggest the time factor may work itself out...

GA

The first NER event is coming up in 10 days or so at NHMS. I would like to try to put Greg's idea into action and see if we can't help each other out here. Last weekend we had a wildly successful Flag School at LRP with 73 novices attending. 73!!!! They were highly enthusiastic and engaged, and most of them want to come out and flag for SCCA this year. The reality is that only a few of them will come to any given event, but we want to do whatever we can to make it possible for even one flagger (new or returning) to come to an event they might not otherwise be able to come to.

If you are coming to the Drivers School and/or the Regional at NHMS on April 17 & 18, and you would be able and willing to give a lift to a worker (preferably a flagger :D) please post that information on the NER Club Racing forum thread called "Worker Ride and Accommodations Exchange". (I'm not allowed to post links yet...:rolleyes:) This is a trial, but it's worth trying, and with your generosity it can be successful. I would suggest posting where you are coming from and what time you are leaving and do the rest offline. If you can offer accommodations to share, however primitive, that's even better. The only stumbling block I foresee is that generally you will leave the track after your session is over, rather than at the end of the day, but let's just see what happens and try to work around it.

And, of course, if any of you have a friend, neighbor, co-worker, or relative who wants to come flag while you are racing, please send them my way and we'll take good care of them. My email address is nerflagchief AT fairpoint DOT net (that's one way to get around the posting restrictions!)

Thanks for any help you can give us!

Leigh

[RSTPerformance]

The only stumbling block I foresee is that generally you will leave the track after your session is over, rather than at the end of the day,

Leigh-

That is the biggest problem... I bummed rides for an entire year when I decided to Steward at every Northeast National race. I had no issue getting to the track, the issue was at the end of the day getting home. In a few cases I had to take off early and I felt like I didn't finish my commitment for the weekend. You may want to stress that every bit helps and we would love your help even if you need to leave early to catch a ride.

Great idea, I hope it helps!

Raymond "Greg your lucky you already live in CT as I will probably be checking the site for a ride or two!" Blethen