Honda B Series Challenge?

[Bob Roth]

Would anybody be interested in a restricted regional spec class for Honda B series Civic Si, Del Sol VTEC and Teg GSR? Kind of like Spec Miata with attempt to keep hp to weight and general prep the same, except for FWD hondas?

Any interest?

[Ed Funk]

:(Oh good, another class! And a SPEC one at that!:o

[JeffYoung]

Bob, your best bet might be to get the Del Sol moved to A. At 155/160 whp, if that is the max, and 115 torque, it might fit. It's certaily slightly more but a lot less hp than the NX2000.

[Xian]

Jeff, one thing to remember is that the Del Sol (and it's coupe twin, the Civic Si) have the "great" Honda DW front and rear suspension. They're going to handle waaaaay better than the NX ever could.

Isn't the ITA power multiplier 14.7? Assuming that's correct and the engine can only make 20% gains, in ITA we'd have:

160*1.2=192*14.7=2822-50 FWD+50 DW= 2822

The 192 crank HP figure above sounds very realistic as that's "only" about 160ish to the wheels. Personally, I'd rather run ITS at 2430 than ITA at 2820.

Christian

[JeffYoung]

Way less torque than an NX2000 though, and I'm personally not sold on the double wishbone being the end all be all of suspension design given what we can do with spring rates (and yes I have some understand of the camber curve on a Macstrut).

What was the curb weight on the Del Sol? Is 2800 even possible?

[Xian]

True... the B-engines are not torque monsters. Imagine them as having CRX level torque but about an extra 30hp on the top-end along with an extra 1000-1200rpm.

If I recall correctly the Del Sol should have a curb weight around 2400ish. I'll poke around online and see what I can find on the weight.

edit:
Looks like the curb weight is 2301 according to what I can find so far.

[Ron Earp]

Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price $ 19,600
Price As Tested $ 19 995
Engine Type 1.6 Liter I4 w/PFI*
Engine Size 97 cid\1595 cc
Horsepower 160 @ 7600 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 111 @ 7000 RPM
Wheelbase/Width/Length 93.3"/66.7"/157.3"
Transmission Five-speed manual
Curb Weight 2560 pounds
Fuel Capacity 11.9 gallons
Tires (F/R) P195/60R14
Brakes (F/R) Disc-ABS/disc-ABS
Drive Train Front-engine/front-wheel-drive
Vehicle (http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/gap9623.html#) Type Two-passenger/two-door
Domestic Content 5 percent
Coefficient of Drag (Cd.) N/A

[Xian]

1993-1997 Honda Civic del Sol Specs & Safety
Vehicle Dimensions

Specification 2-door coupe



Wheelbase, in. 93.3



Overall Length, in. 157.3



Overall Width, in. 66.7



Overall Height, in. 49.4



Curb Weight, lbs. 2301



Cargo Volume, cu. ft. 10.5



Standard Payload, lbs. --



Fuel Capacity, gals. 11.9



Seating Capacity 2



Front Head Room, in. 37.5



Max. Front Leg Room, in. 40.3



Rear Head Room, in. --



Max. Rear Leg Room, in. --

[Xian]

FWIW, the early Del Sol (1994) was lighter than the later ones and came without ABS, IIRC.

[Ron Earp]

Exterior Dimensions

del Sol S

del Sol Si

del Sol VTEC

Wheelbase (in.) 93.3 93.3 93.3 Length (in.) 157.3 157.3 157.3 Height (in.) 49.4 49.4 49.4 Width (in.) 66.7 66.7 66.7 Track (in., frt/rear) 58.1/57.7 58.1/57.7 58.1/57.7 Curb Weight (lbs. MT/AT) 2295/2387 2414/2474 2522/NA

Looks like the VTEC one was heavier than the others.

Not sure why I'm posting on this. Be a cold day in hell before the SCCA adds a spec B Honda series under Improved Touring rules.

R

[Xian]

The specs according to Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/used/1994/honda/civicdelsol/11553/specs.html) for the VTEC model show it at 2301...?

Agreed that it's unlikely for a B-Series spec class unless it's a regional only class that runs with ITA/ITS.

[Knestis]

My answer here is the same as other places where this came up - there's nothing at all preventing a region from doing something like this, which is good because it's inconceivable to me that it has nationwide potential.

K

[lateapex911]

Yea, it's a regional issue.

But, regarding moving the Vtech Del Sol to ITA, if the curb weight is 2300, is there any way in hell it could be under 2500 race weight??

[jimmyc]

The del sol nor the 99-00 civic SI are EVER going to get to the 2430lbs mark.

For Honda Challenge, which is much more liberal about things that may be removed, the del sol sits at about 2420lbs with a B series in it.

The 99-00 civic SI could get alittle closer but not much. Can get to around 2400lbs in Honda Challenge.

But you have to add the factory door bars back in, the heater core, and much more. The Factory door bars on the 99-00 civic SI are about 8.5lbs each, and there are 4 for them total...

THe b16a just doesn't fit well into the IT category, it is a tweener.

[GKR_17]

Follow the SM example. Get a bunch together regionally. If it takes off then they'll pick it up nationally. I wouldn't hold my breath, but then again I thought SM was silly when I first saw it also.

[Bob Roth]

I am here to have fun. Trying to develop a 160 hp 1.6 VTEC engine with rules that say has the same potential of a 2.3 liter non VTEC Prelude motor is a bummer.

If there is hesitence in equalizing VTEC and non VTEC motors, this is plan B. Sure I wouldn't mind being in ITA, but not if the ITA Integra is 2620 and I am carrying 200 pounds balast at 2750. My car is 2350 empty.

Frankly, a spec Honda B series within IT might be a hoot. It ought to be straightforward to equalize 1.6 and 1.8 VTEC cars. All these cars have the same suspensions and near the same brakes. And frankly as any honda brake seems to fit on any upright, they could have the same brakes for almost nothing.

Nasa has honda challenge, Miatas have spec Miata, there are probably 100,000 B Series Honda VTEC cars on the street so why not? All I did was ask the question, maybe some Honda tuners will take the idea and run with it.....

Ps, as soon as you race with a B Series VTEC that turns 8000 rpm all day without blowing up, you won't want to go back. It is a prod motor!!!

[lateapex911]

Bob, you have suggested repeatedly that there are sooo many cars/racers out there.

But, if EVERY NASA HC guy that fit this mold came and raced, how many cars would you have??

[Xian]

To my knowledge there's only one HC class that fits the "B Series Challenge" mold... H3. Mind you this is one of the less subscribed classes with most folks running in H4 (think "ITA") and H1/H2 (full tilt engine swaps and limited pre engine swaps respectively).

[Knestis]

I am here to have fun. Trying to develop a 160 hp 1.6 VTEC engine with rules that say has the same potential of a 2.3 liter non VTEC Prelude motor is a bummer. ...

This got me thinking about a first principle that I don't think came up in our conversations about power, etc. Remember that the ITAC has to classify and specify (weight) cars based on the assumption that *somebody* is going to go crazy and do a whole-hog build...

Just a thought.

K