Data Aquisition - What do you use?

[RSTPerformance]

Data aquisition is on one of my wish lists... I have not had much time to lurk lately so I am not sure if this has been discussed (I tried a search and found 2007 to be the last discussion...).

Anyway, what system do you use and why?

What is the best system (no money limit)?

What is the best deal for the budgeted racer?

Thanks, I am sure your replies will be valuable to a lot of lurkers!

Raymond "I hope everyone had a great holiday!!!" Blethen

[mattbatson4570]

admittedly, I'm in the same boat as you and data acq is also on my wish list.
I have studied traqmate data at a friends house where he had his data laid over three other racers data for comparison.
I found the map very easy and intuitive with regards to understanding what you are looking at. Within a few minutes I was able to see what each driver was doing differently.

Apparently the traqmate is very easy to switch from car to car?

traqmate and DL-1 both use an accelerometer AND GPS.
Some just use one or the other?

[JLawton]

Raymond,

****Warning**** This is coming from a non data geek!!!


We use a DL-1. I didn't do a lot of research on them but since the other guys were using it, it only made sense to get that. It's great when you have guys running in the same class that you can compare the data to. I think that's an import part of the decision. if you can't compare to other drivers/cars, you lose half the capabilities.

I don't know how it compares to the others, but the DL-1 has a lot of different in-put options. I'm only scratching the surface at this point. I would guess the DL-1 by itself has improved my lap times by a full second, maybe more. You can't buy a better "go fast" part for the money.

That being said, I don't find the DL-1 easy to learn. You really need someone who's familiar with it to show you the basics.

I'm sure Andy, Greg or Jeremy can give a lot more insight than I can.

[Doc Bro]

I just wanted to shamelessly (or not so shamelessly!!) post this here....

R

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25300

[gran racing]

I have a DL1 and am pretty clueless how to actually use the data still. :( Hopefully this year I'll have more time to spend learning how to use the darn thing properly. I would be happy to share data with you though Ray.

Greg, I'm telling ya, you really should do some online basic classes. (I still would love to take advantage of your offer to show me a few basic things. I'll contact ya when you get back from your trip.)

[dominojd]

Greg, I'm telling ya, you really should do some online basic classes. (I still would love to take advantage of your offer to show me a few basic things. I'll contact ya when you get back from your trip.)

Yeah I think Greg or Jeremy Lucas, should have an online Data Aq. for dummies 101. An online class once a week over the winter would be nice.

But we all know Greg is a douche so he would never do it, Jeremy? :D

[924Guy]

Some time back, I put together (with help from a couple of other drivers) a presentation on how to use data acq systems for driver training. I probably oughtta put it on my website...

Anyway, I use an AIM Mychron3 XG Log. I chose it because of cost (under $1k), good software for data analysis, and ease of installing other sensors of my choosing.

Best no-limits system? I've never worked with Pi or the like; however, I do work (at the day job) with systems costing over 20-30k. However they're for somewhat different purposes. I would expect that something like the higher-end RaceTech systems would be it... I guess it's more features you're after than anything else...

For top-end stuff, you want systems that can log at 50Hz (to track suspension movement for shock tuning), CAN bus interface to plug in and log signals from your engine ECU (not that we have those), as many input channels as possible, as much memory as possible, and preferably the ability to plug in custom sensors (so you're not locked into buying only the sensors from the data system mfgr.). Burst or even continuous telemetry capability would be nice too. Data download style can relate too; if you have the option to just swap out memory cards (rather than plugging in a cable to a powered-up system), that's faster. The more segments the track can be split into, the better. Predictive lap times are nice too.

For even the basic system/budget club racer, I'd want to at least log speed, RPM, lap times of course, and lateral G's. The quality of the data analysis SW is also relevant; you want something you can understand well enough to use and get good results out of quickly. I would definitely recommend a GPS-based system, like Racepak; mine isn't, I got it before they became widespread and good, and I still futz with the beacon timing as a result. Next one will be GPS-based.

The display is also relevant. I prefer the style that can be mounted on or behind the wheel (mine's right behind). The two most important features to me are to know rpm's and lap time; specifically, having a programmable shift light feature allows me to ignore the tach. Instead, I just drive till all the lights flash, which is easy to see while watching the track, and shift then. Having lap times tracked allows me to do a couple of things. If it's a qual session, I can track how I'm doing, and can park the car when I know I've got the qual time I need - particularly useful if I'm just about to hit traffic or trying to conserve equipment. During a race, knowing my current (rather than best overall) lap time allows me to track how I'm doing, if I'm holding my pace, if I can chase down the guy in front or if I know I'm going fast enough to hold off the guy behind. Knowing I don't have to push faster than I already am means I don't overdo it in a corner I'm already maxed out in, therby driving off and stuffing the car or losing spots.

Seems like you should be able to get a good, GPS-based system for under $1000.

Additional things that are nice to have - knowing braking and throttle points are good, so if you can add those on to your system one way or another, it will be useful once you start to become familiar with the basics. They all usually come with temp and/or pressure sensors, but those are more useful for monitoring your engine (oil press, temp etc) which is probably not so much what you're after with the system now. Knowing when you're on the brake, when you go full-throttle, and how consistent those points are will become more useful.

As for steering, I've had it for some time in my car. It's barely useful for me,, and will just not be something anyone less than an expert is going to get enough out of to justify the expense (of the sensor). So instead, I would recommend (if you really want to see what you're doing with the steering) - use a videocamera. Ideal would be a dual PIP system like the Chasecam setup (or the one I have) that allows you to both see the driver steering input and the track in front. This would allow you to correlate driver inputs with the track (and possibly what's going on out there).

That's a start, hope it helps. I'll post back if I get my presentation and notes uploaded. It used to be on the Waterford site, but they've dropped the link.

[Jeremy Billiel]

IMO, The DL1 is the best setup there is out there. Greg Amy and Jeremy Lucas are the data junkies (although I know the software very well too!), but I am the behind the scenes idiot who installs these things. The huge advantage that the DL1 has is the extra inputs into the data logger. For instance, in the Integra v2 we will have RPM, Air Fuel Ratio, Steering Angle, VTEC on/off, Brake, TPS, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, Water Temp and a couple others we are thinking about.

It makes it awesome to have all this data at your finger tips and I would argue that this software alone comparing my driving to Greg's is why I gained so much time this year while only being in the car 1.5 weekends.

However, DL1 is certainly not the least expensive out there.

So IMO, it comes down to what are the others in your class/team using, how much of a geak you are and how much you want to spend.

Does that help?

[rsportvolvo]

What do you want to do with your data acquisition system (DAS)? Engineering tool or digital dash? Do you know how many channels you want to log? What are your primary goals for the DAS? Driver development, chassis development, etc.? The book below will help you answer these questions.

SAE recently published a new DAS book by Jorge Segers. I am almost finished reading it and it is by far the best DAS book I've come across (never read Buddy Fey's Data Power as the price is @ $300/copy). The author primarily uses MoTeC, Pi Technology, and Race Technology's DL-1 for figures, screen shots and examples. I would say that this book is second only to RCVD in my Motorsport library.

http://www.sae.org/technical/books/R-367

**SAE member price is $73.24 shipped. PM me if you want me to order you a copy.

Here's the author's website (good links).

http://jorge.segers.googlepages.com/

-MoTeC and Pi Technology are for large budgets. Porsche Motorsport uses MoTeC and most IRL teams use Pi Technology. I saw an ITS 944 with a MoTeC ADL a few years back.

-Bosch Motorsport had very non-user friendly software a few years back. Audi Sport uses Bosch. Bosch has a package deal for EMS and DAS aimed at low level Pro and club racers.

-Stack is good and IT forum member Colin Harmer is a dealer and supported SPEED World Challenge with their Stack control DAS. Stack is also the ACO's control DAS for Le Mans.

-AIM, Racepak, and the Race Technology's DL-1 are good budget systems. Used by many low level Pro teams and club racer's.


Depending on your sparky skills you should be able to build the loom(s) yourself. I have a list of budget suppliers for Tefzel wire, connectors, tools, and supplies. PM me if you're interested.

Many sensors can be sourced from newer cars from junkyards/recyclers on the cheap.

I worked as a DAG for 2 years and I'm pretty familiar with DAS. Hope this helps.

[ekim952522000]

http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Data-Logging-Manual-Speedpro/dp/184584162X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230775440&sr=8-1

I found this book to me much better from a begineer to intermediate stand point and even though I own this and the SAE book this is the one I keep going back to (price is allot better to)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond,

****Warning**** This is coming from a non data geek!!!


We use a DL-1. I didn't do a lot of research on them but since the other guys were using it, it only made sense to get that. It's great when you have guys running in the same class that you can compare the data to. I think that's an import part of the decision. if you can't compare to other drivers/cars, you lose half the capabilities.

I don't know how it compares to the others, but the DL-1 has a lot of different in-put options. I'm only scratching the surface at this point. I would guess the DL-1 by itself has improved my lap times by a full second, maybe more. You can't buy a better "go fast" part for the money.

That being said, I don't find the DL-1 easy to learn. You really need someone who's familiar with it to show you the basics.

I'm sure Andy, Greg or Jeremy can give a lot more insight than I can.

I am in the same situation as Jeff and I agree 100%. Feel free to stop by the toter home at any regional and you will find Nick doing analysis for our customers all day. We bring a dedicated PC and set it up for them to use. Our more savvy customers do their own comparisons between each other, their historical bests, etc.

And like anything - buy one that you can grow into if you can afford it. The DL-1 is the best pic in NER IMHO because so many poeple use them.

[Ed Funk]

Geez, Andy, you up early or late?!?! Happy New Year!:)

[jimalley]

Jeff and Andy have it correct when they recommend finding out what other people are running. I know this first hand as I have been running a AIM MXL Pista for two years and haven't a clue of how to get any useful information out of it. So far it is an $1,800.00 shift light.

[Seabee]

I have been using an AIM XG Log system for 3 years. I have it on both cars and there is a good number of racers using them in NER.

Jim, you can PM me if you have some specific questions or let me know what events you will be at. I am sure we can get some basic data for you to use. It also depends what sensors you have since the 90 ECU will not plug directly into to MXL.

r/
Steve

[SPiFF]

I run a DL1. Main reason is people I know with similar cars are running it. This makes it nice to share data and learn from each other.

I also like the external inputs, though atm I am only logging RPM, TPS and Brake from the ECU.

[Flyinglizard]

After working with a few different systems; The most usefull data is speed and throttle setting,interfaced with time and video. This gives you valid turning points in relation to actual speed and throttle position. Steering wheel value is also a speed increaser. If the driver is adding wheel as he approaches the apex, etc.
Also; I have found a lot of info, just watching the steering wheel angle values. Lots of drivers cant tell me what the car is doing, push/loose whaterver.
The video, pointed at the steering wheel and tach can be as useful as any basic system,IMHO. Add a full throttle dash light, along with a brake light for a lot of referance values, very cost effective.
The trackmate needs another car to go faster. But has alot of Data.
There is a Vortex discussion on this also,under road racing.
Mike Ogren

[Flyinglizard]

Video showing good apexes and turn in points is still the most usefull data.
MM

[JLawton]

Video showing good apexes and turn in points is still the most usefull data.
MM

I agree. But the problem is most in-car video doesn't catch how close you are to hitting the right spot. It may look like you're apexing at the right spot but in reality you may be several feet (or more) off the apex. The best video is from a car behind you.

Also, watching what the hands are doing on the wheel is helpful too.

[lateapex911]

For an NER guy, it's DL1

I got an AIM MXL system in the early days, I like it, and it's very useful, but, it would be more useful if I had other cars to compare to.

[924Guy]

Jake - if you'd like to compare AIM data, drop me a line... I know we've at least got decent overlap at Mid-O and Atlanta...

[jlucas]

Yeah I think Greg or Jeremy Lucas, should have an online Data Aq. for dummies 101. An online class once a week over the winter would be nice.

But we all know Greg is a douche so he would never do it, Jeremy? :D

Currently I do web conferencing to help the long distance customers so we can share the same screen and look at their data together (I've even done it on a Friday night to help them look at Lime Rock qualifying data for the race the next day) but perhaps recording some of those sessions might be a good idea since the best way to learn is by seeing examples. I'm not sure how best to do an online class. If someone has ideas how to effectively do that I'm all ears. Greg & I have tossed around the idea of writing some articles as well, however you'd be surprised how much time it can take to write a several page article that is well illustrated and explained.

To answer the original posters question,IMHO software is what makes one product better than another. In the budget category, that's what makes the DL1 hard to beat. I've used all the club level systems and keep coming back to the DL1 as the recommendation for 95% of people. If you have more detailed questions feel free to email or call me and I can run down some of my experiences with you.

[StephF]

Yeah I think Greg or Jeremy Lucas, should have an online Data Aq. for dummies 101. An online class once a week over the winter would be nice.

But we all know Greg is a douche so he would never do it, Jeremy? :D


Jesus Joe, you just did it to me again!
I don't expect that outside of the Sandbox you know!
*wipes lunch off the keyboard*


ETA: What about the Traqmate? How does it compare to the DL-1?
We would like something user friendly, decent price, and easy to read info. Don't feel like having to study a new program for hours. And don't want to buy something that I can't figure out how to use.

[JLawton]

Currently I do web conferencing to help the long distance customers so we can share the same screen and look at their data together (I've even done it on a Friday night to help them look at Lime Rock qualifying data for the race the next day) but perhaps recording some of those sessions might be a good idea since the best way to learn is by seeing examples. I'm not sure how best to do an online class. If someone has ideas how to effectively do that I'm all ears. Greg & I have tossed around the idea of writing some articles as well, however you'd be surprised how much time it can take to write a several page article that is well illustrated and explained.

To answer the original posters question,IMHO software is what makes one product better than another. In the budget category, that's what makes the DL1 hard to beat. I've used all the club level systems and keep coming back to the DL1 as the recommendation for 95% of people. If you have more detailed questions feel free to email or call me and I can run down some of my experiences with you.

How about a live seminar? I'm sure we could gather enough people together to make it worth it ($$$) to come out and do one live????.... Seeing as we can't get our douche bag teamate to do it for us.............

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am sure we could host a seminar for NER folks at the shop. A generic overview for those who have other systems and then an in-depth look at ITS, ITA and SM data for a multitude of tracks here in the NE from a DL-1.

If we get enough people, I will do it.

[jlucas]

What about the Traqmate? How does it compare to the DL-1?

Best thing going for Traqmate is the video integration they have with ChaseCam. Other than that you'll find the software very easy initially but then as you get used to it I think you'll find it's lacking depth. RT has a multi camera solid state recorder coming out next month that pairs up with the DL1.

The DL1 software is not hard, just some of the NE guys have gotten lazy because Greg is always around to do it for them. :happy204:

However I will say that if your not willing to spend a couple hours learning software, there is no data aquisition system that is right for you. Get a video overlay system with no software analysis component (for example, http://www.racereye.com/) and just watch tapes; however that is limiting as well because you miss out on the best part of the analysis. Not trying to be rude, just honest -- see Jim's comment about his $1800 shift light. Like anything worth doing, you have to put some time into it regardless of the brand you use.

I have "quick start guide" and "dl1 example" documents posted as PDFs on my website. They are from the previous v6 software and I need to remake them for the current v7.

If you want some sample data to look at, just email me. When I first started with data acquisition I tried every system I could get my hands on and have tried others since -- that's how I ended up primarily using/coaching/selling/supporting the DL1. The software is the key to whatever system you buy and there's no reason you shouldn't try it before you buy it.

For events that I'm at I offer a rental (with rental fee applicable to after event purchase) so you can fully try it before you buy it.

Edit: You NE guys should take Andy up on his offer, I would help out with that if I was local. If nothing else, it will give you guys something to do over winter. :)

[dominojd]

Best thing going for Traqmate is the video integration they have with ChaseCam. Other than that you'll find the software very easy initially but then as you get used to it I think you'll find it's lacking depth. RT has a multi camera solid state recorder coming out next month that pairs up with the DL1.

The DL1 software is not hard, just some of the NE guys have gotten lazy because Greg is always around to do it for them. :happy204:

However I will say that if your not willing to spend a couple hours learning software, there is no data aquisition system that is right for you. Get a video overlay system with no software analysis component (for example, http://www.racereye.com/) and just watch tapes; however that is limiting as well because you miss out on the best part of the analysis. Not trying to be rude, just honest -- see Jim's comment about his $1800 shift light. Like anything worth doing, you have to put some time into it regardless of the brand you use.

I have "quick start guide" and "dl1 example" documents posted as PDFs on my website. They are from the previous v6 software and I need to remake them for the current v7.

If you want some sample data to look at, just email me. When I first started with data acquisition I tried every system I could get my hands on and have tried others since -- that's how I ended up primarily using/coaching/selling/supporting the DL1. The software is the key to whatever system you buy and there's no reason you shouldn't try it before you buy it.

For events that I'm at I offer a rental (with rental fee applicable to after event purchase) so you can fully try it before you buy it.

Edit: You NE guys should take Andy up on his offer, I would help out with that if I was local. If nothing else, it will give you guys something to do over winter. :)

Jeremy,

I don't think it is as much the software which most have problems with, it is how to effectively look at the data and use it.

Me personally can compare some data , but don't really know what is most helpful. Most of the time it just looks like a bunch of squiggly lines on the screen.

Hey I'm a plumber and a racer, very far from a data guy.

Greg is still a douche , but I love em. :)

[StephF]

I have no problem taking a time to learn a system. I'm actually pretty good at figuring out how to use computer stuff. What I don't want is something that is going to take me all season to figure out, or is so technical that I never get the full benefit from the system.
I don't want an $1,800 shift light. And I don't want to be running to anyone else to do it for me either. Probably because I am a skirt (thank you Rob D for that one..:rolleyes: ) but I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".
I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack.
Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?

[Jeremy Billiel]

Jeremy,

I don't think it is as much the software which most have problems with, it is how to effectively look at the data and use it.

Me personally can compare some data , but don't really know what is most helpful. Most of the time it just looks like a bunch of squiggly lines on the screen.

Hey I'm a plumber and a racer, very far from a data guy.

Greg is still a douche , but I love em. :)

Joe is a plumber and a something else... For sure not a data guy. It's just a good thing that he brings Yuengling to the track.

[Spinnetti]

I've been researching these things for years, and this thread got me going again. I looked in detail at AIM, Race pack and Race technologies. Seems there are still major pros and cons to each, so your particular mission requirements matter ALOT. For me, I want Digital video overlay, and would like a dash too (but don't have to have one) - all in one box if I could get it, but nobody does. Aim DaVid is the best video, but its analog and combined with so-so data logger and no availability of a "dummy" type dash display to show the driver (aim seems to be behind the times on memory and channels - you can tell its the oldest design). Race Technologies is coming out with a new digital video module, but you have to have that + their data logger + a separate display to get it all-Ick. Racepack seems to have the best built in dash/datalogger, but its sensors are expensive, and they have no integrated video option at all. Looks like nobody is there yet. Some years ago, I built my own analog video overlay datalogger (data only stored right in the video), and put the circuit right inside a recorder, but didn't know how to do digital video then (chips have come a long way since then though). Hmm.. Maybe time to update my own system :blink:

[gran racing]

I get how to use the software, but like Joe said don't comprehend what to do with the data. Jeremy L., I know you showed me some stuff before but that was waaay over my head. At the same point I understand that wasn't our goal for that day. Articles and books on this subject are okay, but the way I personally would learn this stuff is more hands on and looking at the real system. I bought one of the new data acq books that discusses the Dl1 system but again, over my head. I think if someone were to conduct a few online classes using something like GoToMeeting or other similar on line meeting software, there would be interest. Again, keep it simple and only include the most basic inputs.

[rsportvolvo]

Most DAS software is well laid out and quite user friendly. As most folks are mentioning it's what to do with the data once you have it. For that you are going to have to read up, find a mentor, take a class, and/or hire a DAG.

I took Claude Rouelle's seminar @ 6 years ago and it is a very good primer. I recommend a hands on seminar for anyone wanting to use DAS. Additionally the best book on the subject matter, that I've read, is Jorge Segers new book (see my previous post for details). This book tells you the sensors you need, math channels to program, and how to review the "squiggly lines." He does so using various cars, various DAS, and puts it quite plainly. I can't say enough about this book and the knowledge you'll gain from it.

Data analysis is on the technical side of the sport. With that you will need to hit the books (i.e. back to school for most). You don't have to be an engineer to correctly utilize the data, but you have to think like one.

[924Guy]

Went back and looked - duh, the stuff is already on my website, just never linked it in:
http://vaughanscott.com/AIM/Data_Acq.htm

There's a Powerpoint presentation there, plus you'll want the notes page to go with each slide.

Some of the info about systems is a couple of years old now, but all the analysis stuff still applies!

[Andy Bettencourt]

We do session to session comparisions, 2, 3 and 4 driver overlays all the time. We go over every corner, braking points, effectiveness, mid corner speeds, corner exit, resulting straight speeds etc.

Its all in there and easy to see once you have seen it a couple times.

Contact me if you want to be part of a seminar at our shop.

[jlucas]

I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".
Here's a DL1 example showing a graphical indication of where time is being lost or gained for a single lap. + is slower (red) , - is faster (blue), green is on pace. The comparison is done against "best theoretical" baseline which is the compilation of all your fastest sectors strung together. As your more consistent, the best theoretical converges on what is actually achievable. (linked so you can see them larger and not clog up the forum):
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/jplucas/time-slip-shaded.jpg
So that's one way to look at it. If you look at that same lap compared to another in a more traditional view, you can see multiple channels at the same time, and quantify some of the difference why one lap is faster than another. Any of the light blue text, arrows, boxes are my manual markup on top of the screen grab to point things out to you. Keep in mind this is just 1 option of many available in the software.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/jplucas/time-slip-full.jpg
The color map trace (image 1) and the bottom graph in image 2 both are showing you the "time slip %" variable which is something unique to the DL1 among it's entry level competitors.

I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack. I could give you a graphical example of each of these in just about any of the software packages (ie. brands). The DL1 advantage here is the speed of jumping from one comparison to the next and the multitude of options to view your data. You can view the information on graphs (aka squiggly lines), in a table, in a colored map trace, or in a animated replay of your session. Different people learn differently so one method might appeal to you, another for me.

Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?
Yup, that's the beauty of the GPS based systems (any of them) is the amount of information that can be recorded from a 5 min install - GPS position, GPS speed, lateral accel (side to side), longitudinal accel (brak ing/accel). Even just that is information overload already for most people not used to looking at data acquisition. Tapping into analog inputs (TPS, brake, RPM, etc..) will take a little more time and on some systems this starts to drive up the cost but the DL1 has 8 analog/4 frequency/& RPM inputs built in. These extra inputs help you get deeper into the analysis. Some inputs like steering angle are you going to cost you extra no matter what system you go with.

Jorge Segers new book (see my previous post for details). This book tells you the sensors you need, math channels to program, and how to review the "squiggly lines." He does so using various cars, various DAS, and puts it quite plainly. I can't say enough about this book and the knowledge you'll gain from it.
I'll second the Segers' book. Greg has my copy right now.

pros and cons to each, so your particular mission requirements matter ALOT Very true but most newbies don't know or understand the differences between some of the choices or can understand why one software is better than another. Hence why these types of discussions are very enlightening for those who are starting to look/investigate.

As far as add-ons, one of the best for the DL1 is adding a DASH3lite. Adding a DASH3lite (or buying as a bundle with a DL1 initially) will give you predictive lap time feedback as you circulate the track and cross your virtual GPS lap beacons; GPS speed, programmable shift lights, and many other features are part of it as well. It's a powerful tool to help you while on track, and help you capitalize on what you reviewed on the PC back in the paddock. A DASH3full adds sensor monitoring/display capability as well as programmable alarms for those sensors so you concentrate on the important stuff, you can even start off with a "lite" and upgrade it later to a "full".

Hopefully these visual examples and more specific comments help you in your search. It's hard to know which presentation of the information works for each of you, so if someone wants to see if a different way just let me know. This is why it's important that your software package has options. Also as your data analysis skill grows, what you want to see and how you want to see it will grow/change. You want something that will grow with you.

[Spinnetti]

Several mentioned what do you do once you have the data?

I took a two day driving course at Mid-Ohio, and we did every corner over, and over, and over again, with turn in points, track out points etc.. Once you know what the correct line and points by corner are, all you need to do is look at Planned vs. Actual. If you hit all your marks, you just need to focus on improving segment times (which you can compare from each lap), and if not, now you know which areas to focus on. So..... my advice would be to take instruction from pros if available at the tracks you wish to run on, and you will then know what to do with the data....

[Ed Funk]

OK, 3 cars, 2 drivers, frequently we'll be on track together, so 1 system wouldn't work.
But, if we're in different groups, what would be he best system to quickly remove from one car and put in another?

[JLawton]

I have no problem taking a time to learn a system. I'm actually pretty good at figuring out how to use computer stuff. What I don't want is something that is going to take me all season to figure out, or is so technical that I never get the full benefit from the system.
I don't want an $1,800 shift light. And I don't want to be running to anyone else to do it for me either. Probably because I am a skirt (thank you Rob D for that one..:rolleyes: ) but I think I would probably prefer something that is showing me where on the track I am at when I am gaining or losing time as opposed to a graph, or a bunch of "squiggly lines".
I actually don't care all that much about the video part. It would be cool, but my interest lies in the data; entrance and exit speeds, G forces, braking points, acceleration points, and if available, line on the racetrack.
Can the DL1 be set up to show you that easily? Or would I need a programming degree? And what about the installation? Is it a 'drop and go' system with minimal wiring?

Steph,

Although some of us talk about the complexity of the DL-1, even my basic knowledge has helped me a great deal. With an hour or two of help from anyone (even Joe), you would be on your way.

It has been by far the best money I have spent on going fast. And again, I think it is key to have other data to compare to, not just your own.

It will help you and you will be able to figure it out. (and I'm sure you're much smarter than a plumber......... :D)

[Ed Funk]

.

(and I'm sure you're much smarter than a plumber......... :D)

for sure a lot better lookin', but somedays you just need somebody that can really crank your pipe!:p

[jlucas]

Ed, any of the GPS based systems can be easily moved between cars. To facilitate that just get an extra set of connectors & GPS antenna for each car and just move the "brain" unit. You can have a similar flat mounting spot in each car that you can put velcro on, if needed, you can use a secondary strap (think I/O Port camera strap or similar). If your going to use a display, I would also recommend 1 per car - not required but it would simplify things greatly for moving.
So that condition alone won't help you pick a unit, however the speed at which you can sift through large amounts of data and skip from one comparison to the next I don't think can be beat with the DL1. I can tell you from working last year in GrandAm with 6 drivers & 3 cars at once that my opinion on this has been further reinforced by the driver's comments and the comparisons they made to other systems that data has been presented to them in the past.

[almracing]

This has been a very interesting thread. The info at Jeremy's site was great to get an understanding of the DL-1 from a potential buyer.

I am looking seriously at a DAS this season (don't tell my wife... lol). My Hot Lap timer is great to tell me which lap was fastest... but can't tell me why I was faster. I would really like to know!

If anyone can answer a couple of questions:

1 - Do you have to download the data after each session? (ie does it record over a previous session?)

2 - Do people just use a couple of CF cards for data collection to keep sessions separate?

3 - How long does it take to download the data to a laptop?

4 - Jeremy notes in his information that GPS shift makes it difficult to compare "lines" from one day to another. That I can understand. Does that also include acceleration and braking points?

Thanks!

I am an engineer so I love data... but I also don't want to spend too much time trying to figure out the software, etc.

[gran racing]

Anthony,
1 - depends upon the size of the memory card you get. If you get a reasonable card size, you can store many sessions on it (sprint races).

I have one card that I'll use throughout the weekend. I've downloaded various sessions to look at them (still working on what I'm looking at) but haven't removed them from the card until after the weekend or sometimes multiple weekends. There's really no need to have two cards unless you're sharing it with someone else.

3 - not sure how long exactly, but it's very quick. Kinda like downloading some pictures onto your computer.

Figuring out how to use the software is pretty easy. That much I picked up on quickly. Since you like the data aspect (that's where I'm pretty clueless right now), you'd have no problems with it.

The only thing I don't like about the DL1 / DASH2 combo is it doesn't have a lap counter. Since often times tracks don't display this info. and haven't had radio communication, I sure wish it did.

[Greg Amy]

The only thing I don't like about the DL1 / DASH2 combo is it doesn't have a lap counter.
Not true, dood. RTFM...

[JLawton]

1 - Do you have to download the data after each session? (ie does it record over a previous session?)

2 - Do people just use a couple of CF cards for data collection to keep sessions separate?

3 - How long does it take to download the data to a laptop?

4 - Jeremy notes in his information that GPS shift makes it difficult to compare "lines" from one day to another. That I can understand. Does that also include acceleration and braking points?

.

1- It wil create a new file everytime you turn it back on. You can fit many, MANY sessions on one card. Greg has programmed my card to turn the DL-1 on automatically when I hit 30 MPH because it's too easy to forget to turn it on. The run ends when you turn it off
2- See above. Not necessary. I'll usually save them to my lap top just as a back up.
3- 2 minutes??
4- No, you will still see your braking points, acceleration, etc and will be comprable to previous weekends. Plus, you can hook the inputs up to your brakes and TPS to tell you exactely when and how much.

Anthony, you'll have plenty of guys to compare data to if you get the DL-1. If you want, I can send you my file from my 1:15.0 lap at NHMS!!

[gran racing]

I have read the DASH2 manual and still don't see how to set it up to display the lap number. I just down loaded it again to see if there was an update and still can't find it. Trust me, I'd love to be wrong here. Could one of you either tell me where it's in the manual or tell me how to get it to display?

[Gregg]

Dave-

Make sure you have the latest firmware for the Dash and also for the DL-1 from R-T (or Jeremy, or Greg). Also, get the latest version of the software from R-T's website. There were some updates to both this fall that both fixed a number of issues w/ lap timing and added some new features as well. With the new firmwares loaded and a config file generated by the latest Dash Config software, you will get a lap count where vehicle speed used to be displayed.

I don't think and documentation has this.

[Sandro]

For those of you planning on getting a data logger or especially DL1, do yourself a favor and go to race-technology.com and you can download the complete software for free. Get someone to email you a data file(preferably of a track you know) and just start playing around with it, it can do a million things more than you think it can, at least it was like that for me.

With the Dash 3 you can go and design what you want to be displayed via clicking and dragging boxes similar to laying out a flyer in Microsoft Publisher. For example I have it that is displays:
* the lap time of the lap I just completed
* the +/- difference from my best lap
* lap counter

tried to do sector times but I messed up when I set it up(have only used it for one weekend)

on the Dash3 you have about 4 or 5 different screens you can scroll through and can also customize. You can basically have any variable that the DL1 logs and have it displayed on the Dash3, so I am assuming the Dash2 is the same but even better since you have a much bigger screen, hopefully someone who has one can confirm that.

I love my DL1 and wish I had gotten it long time ago. :026:

[gran racing]

Sweet! :D Thanks Greg & Gregg.

[spnkzss]

I started playing with the software for the DL1 and a couple files. I have to say, with the quick start Jeremy provides, I got started and found that I had to go home, I was late. Once you start rolling it's amazing and you loss track of time. My DL1 will be here today and my DASH3 will be ordered probably tonight. I will definitely be asking some people some questions and want some coaching as I'm sure there is A LOT I can still do that I'm not yet. I'm REALLY excited to get my own overlays to start playing with.

BTW, I'm a computer geek by trade and can see where it can be confusing, but I like it. :shrug:

NOTE:
You have to ask for it, but until the 11th all DASH3 Fulls are on sale for the DASH3 Lite price. I "think" that includes the bundles too. If your on the fence......

[Greg Amy]

Dave, you have the latest DASH-2 firmware. As we developed new versions correcting issues we found on the Koni Challenge team I updated yours whenever it was in the shop. I don't recall if I uploaded the latest DL-1 firmware, but I certainly can...

Also, ensure you've got the latest manual for the DASH-2. There's actually two conflicting versions. The one I have is "DASH2 instruction manual v300.pdf". Also, I think you need to use a .LAP file on the DL-1.

Lap counters briefly show each time you pass the lap marker, in the center slot where the vehicle speed is shown normally. - GA

[rthiele]

Does anyone have current AX22 firmware and the right cables for an update? Appreciate the help!

Another thought - if there is serious interest from a couple of people to acquire a system we could work with the Pro IT Series guys to approach the vendor and ask for a sponsorship and good discounts.

[Ed Funk]

Another thought - if there is serious interest from a couple of people to acquire a system we could work with the Pro IT Series guys to approach the vendor and ask for a sponsorship and good discounts.[/quote]

Excellent idea! We're really leaning towards this system, and we'll definitely be doing Pro IT with at least 2 cars.

[gran racing]

Or you could quickly buy the one Rob has for sale which is discounted to $700 or whatever. ;)

Greg, do you know if there's a way to adjust how long the lap number is shown?

[spnkzss]

Or you could quickly buy the one Rob has for sale which is discounted to $700 or whatever. ;)



Too late. It literally just showed up at my door ;)

[Greg Amy]

Greg, do you know if there's a way to adjust how long the lap number is shown?
I don't (Jeremy might) but I'll look into it. - GA

[jlucas]

Sorry guys, got busy playing with some new equipment and temporarily forgot about this thread.

4 - GPS shift makes it difficult to compare "lines" from one day to another. That's been improved in v7 of the software now. If you take a consistent pit out & pit in line you can use the Run Manager to shift the data for better overlay.

on the Dash3 you have about 4 or 5 different screens you can scroll through and can also customize. You can basically have any variable that the DL1 logs and have it displayed on the Dash3, so I am assuming the Dash2 is the same but even better since you have a much bigger screen, hopefully someone who has one can confirm that.
Actually the DASH3 is more flexible than the DASH2 b/c the LCD is completely programable where the DASH2 has fixed field locations. Remember the DASH3 is several years newer than the DASH2 so some things are actually better on it.

NOTE:
You have to ask for it, but until the 11th all DASH3 Fulls are on sale for the DASH3 Lite price. I "think" that includes the bundles too. If your on the fence......
Yes this ends soon. Good for DASH3 or DASH3+DL1 bundles. Just give me call before the weekend is over.

Does anyone have current AX22 firmware and the right cables for an update? Appreciate the help! I haven't worked with the AX22 but is has a serial port and CF card slot just like the DL1, what cables are you missing? I can help you with the latest firmware, just shoot me an email so I can reply to it and attach the firmware.

Another thought - if there is serious interest from a couple of people to acquire a system we could work with the Pro IT Series guys to approach the vendor and ask for a sponsorship and good discounts.
Currently they only sponsor the Runoffs and the Solo Nationals but I can check with them if they have any interest. However keep in mind that typically the support has been in the way of discounts for the winners, I don't know if I can convince them to provide an up front discount for series participants.

I don't (Jeremy might) but I'll look into it. - GA
I don't recall ever seeing it but I'll find out for sure.

Anything else I can help with? just post, email or call.

[jlucas]

On a side note I'll have 2 used DL1 available shortly (IIRC, 10Hz models too), should be $700ea if anyone want to get a reservation in.

[jimmyc]

Really get whatever most people you run with, that are willing to share, run.

It is really good to be able to compare data, and have some one else or a pool of people to ask for help.


I love the AIM system, but the software leaves some to be desired compared to EFI or Motec, but I like the AIM software better then anything else. Plus 99% of people in my region run AIM

[jimmyc]

oo GPS is a nice additional feature but the stuff in the DA systems isn't very accurate.

Another plus for AIM, EFI, and Motec

[almracing]

NER Guys -- I would love to see some data from the DL1. I downloaded the software and would like to give it a look with real data. If anyone can email me some data I would greatly appreciate it. (preferably NHMS since I run there most often or LRP) email to anthonynarrc at aol dot com.

Jeff - that 1:15. lap at NHMS would definately be interesting to see. Like, did you just go straight over the hill at Turn 3... waved to the emergency guys and came out at the bird house? LOL

[JLawton]

Jeff - that 1:15. lap at NHMS would definately be interesting to see. Like, did you just go straight over the hill at Turn 3... waved to the emergency guys and came out at the bird house? LOL

Thank god I had proof and witnesses because I couldn't believe it myself!! :eek:


PM me your e-mail.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for all he replies... Looks like DL1 is the best choice in the Northeast... Not sure if it is or is not I. The budget this year, but demos and or rentals might be interesting to see with my brother...

If you plug in car weight can you get HP or some other power reference to compare car performance, not just driver performance?

Raymond "Driving an "oddball" it would be interesting to see how the cars stack up" Blethen

[jlucas]

If you plug in car weight can you get HP or some other power reference to compare car performance, not just driver performance?

Yes. just mount them the same in both cars. It will be a good comparative number but not a number your going to be comparing to your dyno charts. Last year with APR we were able to show a turbo problem in 1 of the 3 cars using it.

[RacerBill]

Does anyone have any experience with the Race-Keeper system?