I'm going out on a limb here...

[tom_sprecher]

Dear Abby,

Since Mazda no longer produces 12A rotor housings, and finding serviceable used pieces is proving to be an exercise in futility, what chances are there that either the IT7 divisional or the SCCA advisory committees would allow the 13B in stock form or with Weber carbs like found in any FM to be substituted? I do not know what the HP numbers are, or how much of a percentage difference it makes since I do not have a high enough security clearance to know the highly classified and crucial to our nation's defense formula otherwise know as "The Process". That being said something must be done. Lord o’ mercy, can’t anyone help this poor man?

Will we see the hundreds of 1st gen Rx-7 racers rapidly disappear? Will racing regions, already struggling to break even, be able to maintain solvency? Can I even switch to ITS with an ’83 model. Heaven forbid, do swim with the sharks in Prod? What the freak am I going to do with my car that’s 20-30% down on power? Do I try to sell the car at a big hit and sit out for 3-4 years while I save up for another car? As much as I, and probably most of the other IT7 drivers don’t want to do, is unfortunately switching to NASA in our future. Help!

Signed,

Dazed and confused

[Xian]

Off the cuff response is that the request isn't within the IT Intent. Lack of parts has caused other cars to lose popularity in IT... RX3 is the first to come to mind.

Looking up the ITS 13B RX7, any idea if that engine is the same as in the later (extremely competitive) 3nd Gen RX7's?

[tnord]

i'm with christian. with the vin rule gone, put the 13b in and go ITS.

[Andy Bettencourt]

RX-7's:

Gen 1
12A: 101hp
13B from 84-85: 135hp

Gen 2 NA
13B from 86-88: 146hp
13B from 89-91: 160hp

Gen 3
13B TT not listed in IT. 255hp.

If you want to do the swap (it is more than you think), then ask for the GSL-SE to get relisted in ITA. Probably around 2545lbs via napkin math.

[Knestis]

It kind of sucks but we have to watch out for the bigger picture, and any allowance outside of the general plan sets a precedent. Enough of those and we lose control of the most important control we've got over the category.

ON THE OTHER HAND, there's nothing to keep a region - or regions - from defining a spec class that does exactly what you describe. I personally think it would be nice if it wasn't called "ITx" to avoid confusion but why not...?

K

[SLUF]

Hmmmmmmm.......................................... .............

Remove the carbed 12A and install a 13B in a 1st gen with a Megasquirt........................................ ...........................

[Xian]

I kinda wondered what sort of weight it would come in at in ITA... probably more viable there than in ITS.

[iambhooper]

RX-7's:
If you want to do the swap (it is more than you think), then ask for the GSL-SE to get relisted in ITA. Probably around 2545lbs via napkin math.

I know quite a few IT7 owners, and even looked at purchasing one myself. This seems like the most viable option. The GSL is not competetive in ITS, but would breath enough life into the IT7's to keep em going.

The local contingent of mazda owners are very competetive. There are usually 7-9 cars every weekend.


hoop

[JeffYoung]

I've honestly always wondered why a to the hilt GSL-SE wouldn't be competitive in S at 2300 lbs.

That said, the IT7 guys I know around here don't have any problems getting housings just yet. Call Eustis White, I bet he could hook you up. It's going to be a problem at some point, but we aren't (as best I can tell) there yet.

[tom_sprecher]

In this part of the country IT7 is a divisional class with simple rules: 1st gen Rx-7 build to ITA rules running the Toyo RA1 or R888 as a spec tire. We have a lot of them too. With the situation only bound to get worse maybe a divisional rule change is the easiest and cleanest way to go.

Ricky gave me a name and I need to call Eustis White as well. Anyone know his number? Also, since posting this I have received some promising emails from a couple of rotary engine builders about alternate sources for new and re-furbished housings. Not as cheap as Mazdaspeed (OEM $330 each, I should have bought 4 when I wanted to), but not too bad all things considered.

Even still, that beating a dying horse thing keeps coming back to mind. The 13B would breathe new life into it for quite some time.

On edit: We had 58 IT7 drivers compete for points in the SCCA Southeast Division in 2007 and a total of 362 entries nation wide at regional races that same year. Spec Rx7 had 382 and Pro-7 had 142. That's a lot of entry fees.

[Black91n/aRX-7]

I've heard of people making 12A housings out of 13B ones by milling them down on each side. Not exact replacement though, since I think the exhaust port will then be wider.

[tom_sprecher]

If the 13B has the raised letters on the housings like the 12A does that would be hard to explain...

[BruceG]

Tom...I feel your pain. I have 2 ist gen race ready 12a rx 7's myself. Anyone know the appr. life span for the housing under race conditions?

Thanks,

Bruce

[Chip42]

IIRC, the RX7 GXL-SE had a very different intake than the 2nd gen 7s 13Bs. I could be wrong. making the no-VIN swap to a 5-letter car would be prohibitive only in this respect (and the harness...)

as for a "spec" IT RX7 with the 13B and a mikuni, sounds pretty cool, but I don't see it going anywhere without a very large number of cosigners and a package proposal with supplier agreement a'la spec miata suspension.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The intake is different, but it still is a 13B so rotor housings are moot. There are a few choices for ITA 12A drivers:

- Stay as is.
- Do the research and convert to ITS in GSL-SE configuration.
- Request the CRB reclass the ITS GSL-SE to ITA at the process weight of around 2545lbs and THEN do your conversions.

Those cars were fairly rare so you may be jumping out the frying pan and into the fire, but it would add options.

[tom_sprecher]

The intake is different, but it still is a 13B so rotor housings are moot. There are a few choices for ITA 12A drivers:

- Stay as is.
- Do the research and convert to ITS in GSL-SE configuration.
- Request the CRB reclass the ITS GSL-SE to ITA at the process weight of around 2545lbs and THEN do your conversions.

Those cars were fairly rare so you may be jumping out the frying pan and into the fire, but it would add options.

Like I've said before I don't want to beat a dying horse and the "84 - '85 6 port 13B would only be putting the damn thing on a ventilator. It will only work if we can use the 2nd gen 13B, otherwise it's EP, STU (and I have neither the time nor the $$$ for either at this point and would guess neither do the rest of the IT7 crowd) or NASA for me.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Like I've said before I don't want to beat a dying horse and the "84 - '85 6 port 13B would only be putting the damn thing on a ventilator. It will only work if we can use the 2nd gen 13B, otherwise it's EP, STU (and I have neither the time nor the $$$ for either at this point and would guess neither do the rest of the IT7 crowd) or NASA for me.

Help me here. How does a move to NASA help you when the core of your motor is in shortage?

If it was me, and I saw a dead future, I would try and get a STANDARD ruleset with the 146hp S4 ITS motor as the core. It's a regional only class anyway. Create teh groundsweel, create the leadership team and run it like SM.

[MMiskoe]

BTW what multiplier is used on the 4 respective Wankels when running them through the Process?

[BruceG]

Andy...any idea as to the lifespan of a 12a housing under race conditions?
Idemitsu makes the only engine oil made especially for rotary engines,plus a premix.Any good?

Thanks,

Bruce

[BruceG]

Ps..i just bought the 4 new 12a housings that were on this website for quite some times(still in the original boxes and packing)

[tom_sprecher]

Help me here. How does a move to NASA help you when the core of your motor is in shortage?

If it was me, and I saw a dead future, I would try and get a STANDARD ruleset with the 146hp S4 ITS motor as the core. It's a regional only class anyway. Create teh groundsweel, create the leadership team and run it like SM.

Couldn't I put a 2nd gen 13B in the car and run PT in NASA? Do they care about spec lines and if my car is as stock as possible? I thought it was some kind of check list of engine size, mods, tires, etc. that goes into some magic formula and Presto! you're in a certain race group.

At this point I will run next year down on power and see how this all plays out. I have started the ground swell here and will take it to the SEDiv annual convention. There already exists a leadership team for IT7 and hopefully they come up with a solution. If they do, it needs to be cheap and easily available because I am not going to spend a lot of time or money on an IT car. That is not why I picked IT or this class.


If they don't, I guess my choices are as follows:
Run NASA with the RX7.
Sell off what I have and race in an SCCA national class preferably non- production based.
Sell off what I have and race in some other amatuer racing club.
Quit SCCA, pay the spectator fee at Road Atlanta to watch you guys bust ass and spend my money elsewhere doing something more relaxing.
I really enjoy SCCA racing and would hate go elsewhere, but unless I feel I am getting value for my entertainment dollar I will be forced to.

[JLawton]

We've had these discussions before in regards to ITC. If there isn't enough interest in a car/class, maybe we should let it die. But don't blame the SCCA. :shrug:

It sounds like what ever is bothering you goes a lot deeper than just have troubles finding a housing........

[Butch Kummer]

If they don't, I guess my choices are as follows:

Run NASA with the RX7.
Sell off what I have and race in an SCCA national class preferably non- production based.
Sell off what I have and race in some other amatuer racing club.
Quit SCCA, pay the spectator fee at Road Atlanta to watch you guys bust ass and spend my money elsewhere doing something more relaxing.


5. Swap to the 13B and run STU, which is (currently) a National class and still within the SCCA community.

You would be just as competitive in STU as you would be in NASA's PTx for the same amount of money. Those guys can put in big brakes, splitters, whizzy wings and other "go-fast" items as well. If you're wanting track time at an affordable cost without having to worry about so many rules (like washer bottles, the period-correct engine, etc.), STU is your new playground. If you to run at the pointy end of ANY class, however, be prepared to bring the thick checkbook out.

You don't like the IT-7 rules? Either build consensus for getting them changed or alter your expectations.

I like winning, but as GTA gains popularity that's gotten more difficult for me to accomplish. As a result, I now find myself reverting to the goal I had when running GT-1:

"Don't get outrun by somebody spending less money than you are!"

[dickita15]

Honestly I think the housing shortage is currently overstated although the prices are going up. There is also coatings being applied to restore housing although most are illegal I think there is one that is legal, again pricey but cheaper than reengineering your car. Worst case scenario if it is determined that none of the recoatings are GCR legal you could get the process included in the IT7 specific rules.
The problem with allowing the 13b is everyone whether they need an engine or not will have to change to keep up.

[tom_sprecher]

Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced my big fat checkbook and that is why I am hoping for a easy alternative. Typically, easy = cheap.

I am in the market for a couple of housings at this time. According to an email I received, refurbished 12A housings that have been ceramic coated are available for $540 each. If anyone knows more specifics about this process and who does it, please share the details with me. If anyone knows the names, numbers or emails of those on the SEDiv IT7 committee, please let me know. If you know where I can find reasonably priced new housings please let me know ASAP and I'll sit down and shut up.

Like I said I really enjoy SCCA racing and honestly would prefer not to go elsewhere or do anything else more relaxing. Changing classes at this time is not an otion. I have too much time into this car as is, would like to get 2-3 more years out of it, would not pick an RX7 as a base to build into STU or EP and still can't find that checkbook. If you see it let me know. ;)

[Xian]

Sounds like the easiest and cheapest solution is to get an allowance added into IT7 for reman'd and/or coated housings. Soup.

[Andy Bettencourt]

If I ran in IT7, this would certainly trigger the need to mobilize a leadership team. Recruit members from all over teh country and figure out what works best for you as a group. Since its a regional class that's not in the GCR and allowed to race at the graces of your local chapter, design your rules to suit and go for it.

[tom_sprecher]

If I ran in IT7, this would certainly trigger the need to mobilize a leadership team. Recruit members from all over teh country and figure out what works best for you as a group. Since its a regional class that's not in the GCR and allowed to race at the graces of your local chapter, design your rules to suit and go for it.

I found out last month that as it turns out I am one of a three member IT7 Advisor Committee here in the SEDiv. Don't ask me how or when that happened.
Butch guessed he asked me at CMP, but neither of us can remember as there may have been a fair amount of drinking being done at the time. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, I've talked with some of the powers that be and have been advised to obtain SEDiv IT7 driver input regarding allowing the chrome plated rotor housing surface and the nitrided iron side housing surface on 12A Mazda engines to be remanufactured to factory specifications using sprayed on Cermet coatings. Dyno tests by the manufacturer show virtually no performance increase (maybe 1%) and the cost is not much more that new parts when they were available from MazdaSpeed.

Although internal engine coatings are against ITCS rules, rotary engines are different and apparently D.2. of the ITCS states the CRB agrees. Unless I have read the rules incorrectly, all rotary engines are raced in defiance of D.1.q. since they have chrome plated rotor housings and nitrided iron side housings, but that was probably addressed a long time ago

What we are trying to avoid is the very real possibility that in a few years, hundreds of IT7, SRX7 and Pro7 cars could be collecting dust in garages and the income from close to 900 race entries per year could not be used to pay race region track expenses across the nation.

Any and all comments and questions are welcome. This is being done purely to overcome a supply and demand issue and should be a market driven process.

A description of the rule change, a ballot and a self addressed, stamped envelope will be sent out to every SEDiv driver who raced in IT7 last year. If this description fits you please PM me your address and member #. The rest I will cull from SARRC, ProIT and ECR points results.

If the results of the poll show a majority are in favor of a rule change, a request will be presented to the SEDiv Planning Committee for review and eventually presented at the Mid Year meeting for a vote by the RE's to be included in the 2010 SEDiv class rules.

[dickita15]

Sounds like a good approach