Strut/shock upper mounts (pillowballs/camber plates/hats) & SF bushings

[wosneski]

I'm going to be building a dual purpose SP/IT car. So I don't want to go beyond IT prep allowances where SP allows you to. However, the wording for upper shock mounts is almost non existent while SP goes in depth. The way I read it, in IT, pillowball upper shock mounts (e.g. mounting to a coil over threaded sleeve body) are not specifically allowed, but the wording doesn't say one way or the other.
Basically I'm building a project budget list, part of which includes removing all allowable slop from the chassis... and I want to know if:
(a) I can use a coilover system which incorporates new pillowball mounts (not that I found one from a manufacturer I know/trust), or at least get some pillowball MOUNTS/plates like this
http://www.technotoytuning.com/media/products/cp_01.jpg
and try to make them work with the coilover setup I want (GC/Koni)
or
(b) I have to get new crappy OE style "cushion mounts" http://images.wrenchead.com/smartpages/partinfo_resize/MOE/902979.jpg?cookieID=2IG0P85TW2IG0Q5GEA&clientid=autopartsgiant
somehow make them mate to the threaded collar coil over setup I want (GC/Koni) & "merge" it with the Tein plate?

HELP this is driving me nuts. The rear is different - I don't even know how the aftermarket upper mounts/hats are different than OE (can't get a pic). I would assume the rubber parts are replaced with metal. These are some of the OE parts (minus the metal "hats")
http://cds.activant.com/C2C/C01/81/976/861260321.jpg


Finally, can I use subframe spacers in addition to subframe bushings? 9.1.3.D.5.d.6 says
"6. Bushing material, including that used to mount a suspension

subframe to the chassis, is unrestricted. This includes
the use of spherical bearings, so long as no suspension
component is modified to facilitate their installation. Retention
of spherical bearings by use of tack welds is allowed,
as long as the welds serve no other purpose."
that's it.

I'd like to install solid bushings + hard urethane spacers to tune out NVH & adjust anti-squat. Whiteline even sells a "Sub-frame align & lock kit: 6 parts - allows diff angle change & subframe lock." I sent an email to Whiteline product support, after weeks of THAT link being down, but obviously hadn't heard back yet. guess the main Q here is .... are you allowed to change geometry with SF bushings?

Damn, this at first build seemed so simple, but IT and SP rules differ in so many annoying ways. Wish they'd just be equal and just add the safety stuff for IT.

FWIW, I sent a detailed email to [email protected] weeks ago, and posted on www.sccaforums.com (http://www.sccaforums.com) over a month ago, each with no response. Can't imagine this hasn't come up before. The 2009 ITCS doesn't clarify this section one bit. This would be the relevant excerpts from the ITCS.

"b. Springs and Shock Absorbers

1. Shock absorbers may be replaced provided

that the replacements

(a) attach to the original mounting points, and (b)
are of a non-remote-reservoir design."

and

"2. MacPherson strut equipped cars may substitute struts,

and /or may use alternate inserts. Spring seat ride height
location may be altered from stock."

and

"d. Suspension Mounting Points

1. Cars equipped with MacPherson strut suspension may
decamber wheels by the use of eccentric bushings at
control arm pivot points, by the use of eccentric bushings
at the strut-to-bearing-carrier joint, and/or by use
of slotted adjusting plates at the top mounting point. If
slotted plates are used, they shall be located on existing
chassis structure and may not serve as a reinforcement for
that structure. Material may be added or removed from the
top of the strut tower to facilitate installation of adjuster
plate."

Is a pillowball upper mount with an integral camber plate a "strut-to-bearing carrier joint" with "eccentric bushings" ? I don't know. Are the "original mounting points" where the strut attachs to the OE CUSHION or the holes in the strut tower? For the rear... again, is the material BETWEEN the shock and the shock tower free, as long at the same hole in the body is used??

Again, these are areas that it would serve LOGIC by just copying the Solo Street Prepared wording verbatim into the ITCS.... but no, it's left open and vague, and the SCCA itself won't respond to me!

[joeg]

It is thr "slotted" rule.

Perfectly legal. Everyone uses camber plates with pillow mounts on strut-equipped IT cars.

Cheers.

[lateapex911]

And, as for the Street prepared vs IT thing, there are a bazillion reasons not to do that.

First, (And i know you'll say it's because the rules are different, LOL), the actual crossover is pretty minimal. Sure, some do both, but it's stretching the money and time resources, and for those who wish to do both really well, it's usaully beyond the scope of reality.

Secondly, IT rules have been around far longer than Street Prepared rules. SP was written later, and has taken it's own direction, and IT rules really don't look to SP for direction either.

But, as Joe points out, struts are pretty free in IT, and your camber plate, monoball mount is the defacto standard.

[cjb25hs]

And, as for the Street prepared vs IT thing, there are a bazillion reasons not to do that.

First, (And i know you'll say it's because the rules are different, LOL), the actual crossover is pretty minimal. Sure, some do both, but it's stretching the money and time resources, and for those who wish to do both really well, it's usaully beyond the scope of reality.

Secondly, IT rules have been around far longer than Street Prepared rules. SP was written later, and has taken it's own direction, and IT rules really don't look to SP for direction either.

But, as Joe points out, struts are pretty free in IT, and your camber plate, monoball mount is the defacto standard.

I think he is actually talking about SOLO2 SP (street prepared) ie DSP in his sig. Not GCR RR rules for SPO & SPU

[lateapex911]

Yup- that's what I meant...Solo II SP...IIRC, IT just barely predated the SP category in Solo II.

[wosneski]

And, as for the Street prepared vs IT thing, there are a bazillion reasons not to do that.

First, (And i know you'll say it's because the rules are different, LOL), the actual crossover is pretty minimal. Sure, some do both, but it's stretching the money and time resources, and for those who wish to do both really well, it's usaully beyond the scope of reality.

Secondly, IT rules have been around far longer than Street Prepared rules. SP was written later, and has taken it's own direction, and IT rules really don't look to SP for direction either.

But, as Joe points out, struts are pretty free in IT, and your camber plate, monoball mount is the defacto standard.

Just an FYI: I'm a SOLO guy first who's later looking to transition to CLUB, so that's where my rules knowledge lies first. The hard-and-fast rule in the SOLO rules is the classic "if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't."

Here, it seems the accepted rule is "if it doesn't say one way or the other, just assume what you want." :blink: Coil-overs, pillowball upper mounts & camber plates all sure SEEM to go together logically... but I'd like an official clarification from the SCCA. Nobody responded at [email protected] -- is there any other way to get a rules clarification?

Another FYI: I know you can't build a national-level DSP/ITS car that is competitive in BOTH classes. I'm not a national level driver, so it doesn't matter; I'm just looking for a place to play. Hell half the time the car will be run with the local PCA wonks. :o The car will generally be built to the more restrictive IT ruleset and run in DSP/street driven until I have the car fully sorted and more of a racing budget for track weekends.

Then and only then, it'll get the [nice] interior ripped out, cage, seat, fuel cell, etc. If I "under-prepare" it for IT then there'll be no $$ on reversions or parts swaps when this time comes.

Thanks for the responses.

[joeg]

Adam--You will not necessarily get a response from Topeka. Beleive us...your camber strut plates are fine.

[dickita15]

IT is based on the same if it does not say you can you cannot, so your background should serve you well. But there is a corollary used around here that goes if it says you can you bloody well can. It makes perfect sense to me if you expect the car to migrate from Solo to IT to take both rule sets into account.
Honestly you will get pretty good rule interpretations on this site. We are home of some of the best rules nerds in the business. If you get a simple answer and no other comments you can be pretty sure it is gospel. I assure you if there is a second side to the story you will hear from people on this site.
Oh and camber plates are fine.

[wosneski]

Why should I NOT be entitled to a response from Topeka?? I sent a thoughtful, detailed, photo-and-rule filled email... ugg, the SCCA...

Anyway, anybody know about the SF bushings and geometry? I know a couple manufacturers make kits (like Whiteline) that can effectively alter rear geometry, based on which side you put the donut on.

[dickita15]

Why should I NOT be entitled to a response from Topeka?? I sent a thoughtful, detailed, photo-and-rule filled email... ugg, the SCCA...



Because there is no one at SCCA headquarters whose job it is to create or interpret club racing rules.
SCCA works more like a democracy that a dictatorship. This has advantages and disadvantages but I guess it is easier to make disparaging remarks about a process you don’t understand than to put any effort into understanding it.

[Mike Mackaman]

I am not as familiar with the rear adjusting than the front. I have a set of weld in camber plates in the parts section that will work perfectly in the front of your car. Very reasonable I might add. The ones you pictured are bolt in, and while they work fine, they can be a PITA! On the ones I have, and I have them on my car, and several others in SCCA and other sanctioning bodies, you just cut out for the adjustment area, clamp them in, weld the plate in, bolt the slider to the strut top and bolt it down. Very easy to work with, never had a failure, and believe me, we have tested them to failure of the car without an issue. Ya know, crash testing!!!

There are some very fast ITS S13 and S14's out there as sell as Bob Stretch's ITA car, so it can be done in the back. Everything I have heard was that you use mono balls on all the pivots, but I don't know where the adjustment comes in.

Mike