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Cobrar05
12-01-2008, 10:02 AM
I am thinking about getting a Honda S2000 race car. Is this platform competitive in ITR?

tnord
12-01-2008, 10:13 AM
nobody has really tried yet, so it's tough to say. i'd love to try it, but the 3005lb min weight scares me.

gran racing
12-01-2008, 10:24 AM
I know it would be a fun ride but the weight will kill it. There are other platforms which have more potential.

Knestis
12-01-2008, 08:38 PM
At this point in history, ANY of the platforms - fully prepared and driven with talent - would be a winner, but that's because we're just in the early days of ITR evolution and the competition isn't very strong.

K

JeffYoung
12-01-2008, 09:04 PM
It is just hard to say at this point, with any of these cars. I've yet to see any ITR car (even very well driven ones) go significantly faster than an ITS car, if at all, so there clearly is a lot of work and development left in them. I have yet to see an ITR Supra or 300ZX, or 968, and I think all three could be way fast despite the weight. Same with a Boxster or an S2000.

Too many variables right now to know. The S2000 makes excellent power, near best in class, but probably won't respond very well to IT tweaks and is torque deficient. It kind of looks like the RX8 in many regards. We'll see.

Build one and find out! An expensive proposition in R isn't it?

JoshS
12-01-2008, 09:08 PM
We have an ITR S2000 here in SFR. It's not a fully-built car (stock engine) and he's got limited racing experience (I think almost nothing other than the 20+ races he's done in the S2000 over the last 2 seasons), but he's been doing pretty well. I think it could be a good car. But as others have said, we have yet to see many fully-built ITR cars, other than ex-ITS E36 BMWs.

Cobrar05
12-01-2008, 09:29 PM
I have access to an S2000 that has been running Honda Challenge in NASA. I race my Mustang in NASA and have been wanting a SCCA enduro car. I have owned an S2000 as a street drive and know them pretty well.

If they are not ITR friendly and that is the only IT class they are legal for, then I am not sure it makes a lot of sense for me.

JeffYoung
12-01-2008, 09:41 PM
I am pretty sure they are in T2 or whatever it is called now as well.

No one is saying that they aren't ITR friendly. No one really knows at this point. Right now, R is interesting because it is the great unknown. No one really has any idea which car is the best or most competitive one for the class.

Ron Earp
12-01-2008, 09:44 PM
If you have access to it and don't have to build it from the ground up, well, that is a different proposition all together. If the milk is for free don't buy the cow to find out if she'll race.

I don't know how I'd fancy my chances with an S2000. The popular BMW's that make up the bulk of the current racing ITR class are at lighter weights, sport larger engines, and are well-known power producers.

Didn't someone just run an S2000 in the 13 hour? I could swear I saw one on track and commented about it on a thread here. You could have a look at their lap times and get a rough idea.

Ron

JoshS
12-01-2008, 09:45 PM
I am pretty sure they are in T2 or whatever it is called now as well.

T2 is still called T2. But the S2000 is in T3.

Greg Amy
12-01-2008, 10:25 PM
Is [the S2000] competitive in ITR?
It's the same answer to my wife's question about "how many men does it take to swap out a toilet paper roll?"

Answer? "We don't know, it's never been done."

Try it (the S2000, not the TP roll)! Does the HC car vary significantly from IT-prep rules? Take the car and go out there, see how it runs, see where it's got advantages and disadvantages, think about where it can be improved. Worst case you've added a few races to an existing HC ride...

ekim952522000
12-01-2008, 11:41 PM
The H1 s2000 you are looking at should be very close to IT legal since H1 s2000's had to run with H3-H5 rule set. I think the s2000 will prove to be one of the top cars in ITR those cars always seem to go faster than the math says they should.

Cobrar05
12-02-2008, 04:13 PM
I appreciate the input. I am just finishing my second year of racing. I want more laps. I also want to be able to race at VIR more often. Since I am a Mustang driver and the SCCA classing and rules are fairly unfriendly to Mustangs, I have been racing more NASA stuff than SCCA. Since NASA Southeast does not include VIR, I don't get to run at the track I am closest to as much as I would like.

My thinking on the S2000 is to find a more SCCA friendly race car that is allowed to run enduros without having to get special permission and then run the full schedule at VIR. BTW...my primary I would continue to race the Cobra R in NASA competition and the ARRC Enduro.

I don't really need to win anything. Seems to me you guys are encouraging me to give the S2000 a try in ITR. So, we will see if things can get worked out.

JeffYoung
12-02-2008, 04:52 PM
I think it is one of the more attractive options in ITR, along with a number of other chassis. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out. If you like a revvy powerful motor, with good rwd handling, the S2000 looks like a good choice.

spnkzss
12-02-2008, 05:00 PM
Is the "interesting" handling something that can be fixed or does it handle the same just at higher speeds with some good shocks/spring on it? The reason I ask is I've driven a few, kinda hard, and find they start to push pretty good and then damn near snap loose when you roll out. Fun car, would love to track one, but I'll stay in A thank you.

type r rocket
12-02-2008, 06:42 PM
That S2000 at the 13 hour was a nice car,just built,can't remember what class it was in that weekend.It is going to be run in T3 next year owned by husband wife team and built by Racelabs someone said.Motor went boom in the middle somewhere during the race,I heard it was a junkrard motor just put in.
I was in the the Type R that weekend and not sure who they had in the car at the times I was but I pretty much drove around it.Now this was my first time at VIR and my first laps were during my first stint so it took me about 15 laps to get up to speed.Someone said I got down into the 17's so I wasn't smoken the track up by any means.In saying that I also heard the S2000 drivers were pretty new to racing.

I do remember coming out of oaktree and really pulling up to it out of the corner and once I passed it in 5th gear 3/4 way down the track the S2000 seemed to hang on a bit.

Our car is full IT prep except for the motor which is stock,has a big gear and pulled about 190/134 on the dyno before the event.Not sure if thats good or bad but Honda does a pretty good job in the motor dept. in both cars.The S2000 might eek out 210-215 hp at the wheels after a little bit of prep.Our car handles fine in endurance mode but I would be a little afraid of a sprint race keeping up with a better handling car as the S2000 should be.

I am guessing that in your region racing a S2000 is going to be a pretty good car to have,you might be a little out gunned at the ARRC from another car or two but....

And as some of you know the S2000 is of great interest to me if T3 is still around in the future.I even have a friend who is looking at it or the RX-8 for e-prod.

So my bet is build it for ITR and have fun.

type r rocket
12-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Or better yet buy my spec miata and turn it into a ITA car!!!!!!And then you could kick the crap out of Travis with it.

tnord
12-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Or better yet buy my spec miata and turn it into a ITA car!!!!!!And then you could kick the crap out of Travis with it.

you just love to get me all fired up don't you? talk all you want right now dave, because if you end up running in ITA next year i'll put an extra long tow strap on the back of my car so you can try and hang on as i drive by.

your phone is ringing.

anyway....

like dave, i'm really intrigued by the S2000 as the next race car (but i'm 5 years away from that). i just want somebody else to try it out first so they can tell me if the thing will hold together and not chew through tires/brakes at that weight.

Speed Raycer
12-02-2008, 07:51 PM
like dave, i'm really intrigued by the S2000 as the next race car (but i'm 5 years away from that). i just want somebody else to try it out first so they can tell me if the thing will hold together and not chew through tires/brakes at that weight.

Seelig's building one. Don't think it'll be booger green though :D Might be done for next season ;)

Cobrar05
12-02-2008, 08:01 PM
The car in the 13 hour was slow. Its lap times were well up in the 2:20's and the second driver was well into the 2:30's as if it was raining.

GKR_17
12-02-2008, 10:58 PM
I think the s2000 will prove to be one of the top cars in ITR those cars always seem to go faster than the math says they should.

Especially since it's already 100 lbs lighter than the math says it should be...

gran racing
12-03-2008, 09:15 AM
Yeah, if it would respond to an engine build like most other cars do. This one won't. 240 hp out of an 4 cyl, you really think you'll get much more out of that from building a "race" engine?

type r rocket
12-03-2008, 11:20 AM
Nope I doubt you would gain much messing with the lower end.I think a nice IT prep to the max cyl. head work would help some.Nice shock/springs,real bushings,camber/etc. ,header and exhaust,intake,shorter rear end gear and maybe an after market ecu but once again I have been told thats pretty well set as it is.

Cobrar05
12-03-2008, 02:53 PM
There is a guy that runs an S2000 in NASA and his lap times at Road Atlanta this summer were in the low 1:40's(41-42). Thats pretty quick.

Xian
12-03-2008, 04:10 PM
Not to burst anyone's bubble but isn't 1:42's a fast time for ITA?

R2 Racing
12-03-2008, 04:56 PM
Not to burst anyone's bubble but isn't 1:42's a fast time for ITA?
Top six ITA qualifiers at the ARRC this year were in the 1:42's.


Does anyone know what the weight is of an H1 S2000? IIRC, it's quite a bit less that ITR's 3005lbs.

seckerich
12-03-2008, 04:59 PM
I seriously doubt that a motor that won so many awards for the most HP per CC in history is going to get much more in IT trim. We might have some future Formula 1 engineer among us--who knows? Same for the RX8 which is weighted in IT trim to get the same HP numbers as a prod motor:rolleyes:. When you get cars classed by just power/weight the tires become a big issue on the heavier cars.

Process weight for the S2000 is correct by todays formula.

Gregg
12-03-2008, 06:16 PM
Does anyone know what the weight is of an H1 S2000? IIRC, it's quite a bit less that ITR's 3005lbs.
I'm pretty sure Pete Filicetti's old car (Driven by Jason Meise) was in the 2600lb range w/ driver.

Xian
12-03-2008, 06:36 PM
Does anyone know what the weight is of an H1 S2000? IIRC, it's quite a bit less that ITR's 3005lbs.

I can't sort out if I'm looking at 08 rules with proposed revisions for 09 or 07 rules with revisions for 08... regardless, it looks like the 2.0 cars were at 2650 and the 2.2's at 2750 but both received 75# weight drops at some point. WAAAAAAAY under the ITR weight. But, hey, at least they can run at the pointy end of ITA :smilie_pokal: ;)

Cobrar05
12-03-2008, 11:02 PM
Yea, the car I am interested in is a 2600lb car and I must say that I am a little skiddish about adding 400lbs to run ITR. Sounds like S2000's are NASA cars. Oh well

JoshS
12-04-2008, 12:17 AM
Yea, the car I am interested in is a 2600lb car and I must say that I am a little skiddish about adding 400lbs to run ITR. Sounds like S2000's are NASA cars. Oh well
At 2600 lbs (with driver, I assume?) it's probably missing things that you'd need to put back in ITR to be legal anyway. The one that's racing here in San Francisco Region has to carry about 300 lbs of ballast after being totally stripped.

jimmyc
12-14-2008, 05:14 PM
although it was a CR the S2000s that Honda R&D ran at the 25 hour last year were pretty impressive.

they were right around 2900lbs, stock motor, no header, no intake, no exhaust, cats removed, stock CR springs and H&R dampers. And it was an Enduro car.

it ran 2:02:xx for most of the enduro, which is pretty good.

I ITR cars should be around 1:59:xx to 2:00:xx at thunderhill with the bypass.

JoshS
12-14-2008, 06:45 PM
although it was a CR the S2000s that Honda R&D ran at the 25 hour last year were pretty impressive.

they were right around 2900lbs, stock motor, no header, no intake, no exhaust, cats removed, stock CR springs and H&R dampers. And it was an Enduro car.

it ran 2:02:xx for most of the enduro, which is pretty good.

I ITR cars should be around 1:59:xx to 2:00:xx at thunderhill with the bypass.
SCCA doesn't use the bypass, but I just asked Dave Vodden (track mgr and club racer), who would know better than anyone, what the time difference is. He said easy 1 second, maybe 2 once you get used to the jump, not much more than that.

Okay, so 2 seconds. I predict a well-driven, fully-prepped ITR car will be in the low 2:03s, maybe a high 2:02 take-no-prisoners-track-record-lap going over the cyclone. So, I think a 1:59.xxx with the bypass is very optimistic.

My best so far in my ITR car is 2:05.5 w/o bypass. It still has the original engine but the handling is getting there and I think the driver is pretty decent.

What does that all mean for the S2K? I still say it can do okay at its current weight.

jimmyc
12-14-2008, 09:47 PM
Okay, so 2 seconds. I predict a well-driven, fully-prepped ITR car will be in the low 2:03s, maybe a high 2:02 take-no-prisoners-track-record-lap going over the cyclone. So, I think a 1:59.xxx with the bypass is very optimistic.



Yep 2 seconds is what i have heard/seen from a few who have ran the track a lot both ways.

I really think ITR cars will be in 2:01:xx, at least i hope so. An ITA integra in enduro trim ran a 2:03:xx with the by pass.




If an H1 S2k isn't a solid 4 seconds a lap faster then ITA, THEY ARE DOING IT WRONG.

JoshS
12-14-2008, 10:54 PM
I really think ITR cars will be in 2:01:xx, at least i hope so. An ITA integra in enduro trim ran a 2:03:xx with the by pass.

The ITA track record is a 2:06.3 (that's without bypass, of course). That Integra is ridiculously fast but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't ITA legal while running a NASA race.

jimmyc
12-15-2008, 06:32 PM
The ITA track record is a 2:06.3 (that's without bypass, of course). That Integra is ridiculously fast but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't ITA legal while running a NASA race.

that is taking a huge risk, as it was classed as an ITA car so if it wasn't ITA legal they could be DQ. I know they were really going for it so i doubt they would risk it...

mossaidis
06-15-2009, 02:17 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but it's the only difference between IT and H3-H5 rules sets are that HC also allows for flywheel, rear wing and CAI buts limits you to Toyo's.

kgobey
06-15-2009, 06:53 PM
The issue with an S2000 in ITR trim - or really any trim is the course. On Buttonwillow I reckon the S2000 could hang with John Norris if say John Norris was driving it (for example of driver parity)... But on a course like the Interior Road Course at California Speedway, the S2000 would be outclassed lugging out of the slow right angle turns onto the the relatively long straights.

So on courses where the turns allow you to carry speed - Laguna, VIR, etc, the flowing turns would fall into the nature of the car to carry speed. On course Like RA or RA (LOL) or even Blackhawk or Morroso you'd be fighting a losing battle of the drag race.

Or at least that's my feeling on the matter.

JoshS
06-15-2009, 07:03 PM
the S2000 would be outclassed lugging out of the slow right angle turns onto the the relatively long straights.

Don't lug, downshift. Keep that thing in the powerband and it's got no disadvantage.

kgobey
06-15-2009, 07:13 PM
Don't lug, downshift. Keep that thing in the powerband and it's got no disadvantage.
Yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean... :p :D

NORRIS
06-15-2009, 09:45 PM
The issue with an S2000 in ITR trim - or really any trim is the course. On Buttonwillow I reckon the S2000 could hang with John Norris if say John Norris was driving it (for example of driver parity)... But on a course like the Interior Road Course at California Speedway, the S2000 would be outclassed lugging out of the slow right angle turns onto the the relatively long straights.

So on courses where the turns allow you to carry speed - Laguna, VIR, etc, the flowing turns would fall into the nature of the car to carry speed. On course Like RA or RA (LOL) or even Blackhawk or Morroso you'd be fighting a losing battle of the drag race.

Or at least that's my feeling on the matter.

Hey K.

I've heard that "No torque" excuse before. Back when we were racing the Nissan 240 sx's in Speedvision Cup Honda did a great job of politicing the Acura Integera based on "We don't have any power below 7000 rpm" Fact of the matter is they had a stock redline of 9500 and they never went below 7000! And they went on to kick our asses:(

I think the S2000 would be a great car to race. Prep your car and lets race. I'm dying out here, there is NOBODY to race against!

benspeed
06-16-2009, 08:49 AM
I also think the S2000 would be a great ITR car -

Hang in there John - ITR will come to your region - the North East is starting to see a nice influx of top cars and top drivers.

Z3_GoCar
06-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Hey K.


...I think the S2000 would be a great car to race. Prep your car and lets race. I'm dying out here, there is NOBODY to race against!

I think the S-2000 will be a great car to race ( both in and aginst) . Hang in there John, I'm working on having the Z3 ready by the end of July. BTW, I've got a new number too...

Bob Roth
06-22-2009, 05:44 PM
Here you go, raced ready car.... http://www.racingjunk.com/category/1078/NASA_Honda_Challenge/post/1550519/Race-Ready-Honda-S2000-new-price-13-500.html

But, at 120 hp per liter stock at engine and 8,000+ rpm readline , its already maxed out....Don't be expecting the hp you could get from similar prep from other IT cars.

lateapex911
06-22-2009, 06:03 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but it's the only difference between IT and H3-H5 rules sets are that HC also allows for flywheel, rear wing and CAI buts limits you to Toyo's.

The above ad lists 9.5" wheels, and adjustable ball joints, which aren't IT legal, IIRC. Also the engine was built to "NASA H1 specs", and puts out 214 at the wheels. He doesn't list the dyno type. That's 12 less than what process predicts.

jimmyc
06-22-2009, 07:41 PM
The above ad lists 9.5" wheels, and adjustable ball joints, which aren't IT legal, IIRC. Also the engine was built to "NASA H1 specs", and puts out 214 at the wheels. He doesn't list the dyno type. That's 12 less than what process predicts.

NASA H1 specs are tighter then IT. Can't use 40 over pistons, can't use forged pistons.

IIRC that car is using some sort of weird, not entirely the "best", engine management.

That car, and one other were dyno'd at nationals.. the other one/2 IIRC made more power.

jimmyc
06-22-2009, 07:51 PM
this one just sold for 11,500 or so

13,500 - Located near Harrisburg, PA

I added up over $14k of equipment I have added to this car in addition to the running car. So you get $14k+ of stuff, plus a chassis and 2.2L engine / tranny for $13,500.

Current 2008 Log book and inspection.

2001 Honda S2000. I have a bill of sale instead of a title. The car was abandoned at a Colorado repair shop after doing a 5th to 2nd downshift and breaking a valve. It has a clean Carfax report. I have owned it for about 2+ years.

Engine bay*Engine/ tranny - 2.2L F22C - all stock with about 8-9 race weekends. Purchased with about 10k miles on it. Installed by JEI.
*AEM EMS - Installed and tuned by JEI (shut off at 8300rpm to not over tax the motor) - $2k installed
*AEM Cold air Intake - $200
*Custom exhaust with resonator where the cat used to be. Turn down at end of resonator - $300
*Dyno'd at Hyperfest on a Dynojet at 223peak hp.
*REAR GEARING IS 4.44 instead of the stock 4.10 - $900
*Comptech Lightweight flywheel - $325
Suspension & Brakes *TEIN RA coilovers - purchased new for this car. 8-9 race weekends - $1600 brand ndew.
*Saner adjustable front sway bar - currently set on middle - $225
*Removed rear sway bar (still have it)
*Currently Carbotech xp12 front pads xp10 rear pads
*I have at least 1 set of new rotors to put on the car when sold
*SJB adjustable ball joints on the front ~ 3.5 negative camber - $200
Safey Details:*Rollcage is an 8 point that was custom bent and installed by James Evans (JEI) (used to race Honda Challenge) in Baltimore, MD. Rollcage goes right to the rear suspension mounts for stiffness, and has NASCAR bars on the drivers side. - $3000
*Sparco Evo Rev seat with Buddy club slider - $700
*G-Force 5 point harnesses - $200
*Required professionally installed shut off - $200
*Normal Rollbar padding
*Honda Factory Hardtop - $2000
Misc*APM carbon fiber wing - $400
*Electronic oil gauge - $50
*programable shift light - $150
*momo 330mm steering wheel - $150
*car is gutted and weighs about 2675 with me in it and half a tank of gas, so about 2450 dry. It still has the stock battery and airpump and other misc items, so it can definately weigh less.
*New windshield in 2008. Has 1 chip from rubber at Summit
*VOLK CE28N wheels with R888's....1500+++
*front splitter (slightly bent due to loading into my trailer - it got caught on the ramp) - $120
Track History[LIST]*I did sideswipe a car at VIR July 2007 and spun off. All suspension parts front and rear on the drivers side were replaced to make sure nothing was cracked, bent, etc.. the steering rack was also replaced. I replaced the front fender and left the other damage (see picture)
*no other wrecks or damage.

bolded the HP and dyno type and ECU type (AEM EMS= full standalone computer)