CenDiv schedule Kettle Moraine Regional no more.

[cooleyjb]

Did anyone notice that the Kettle Moraine regional was switched to a national leaving only one regional race at Road America vs. 3 nationals and runoffs.

Reasons range from noone wanting to run a double national to make up for Autobahn being left off the schedule to it not being fair to regional drivers to have to compete with national drivers tuning up for the runoffs.

I'd post a link to the schedule but I can't.

[cooleyjb]

I'd imagine that the IT group has some decent opinions because it fully leaves your classes out in the cold.

[cooleyjb]

http://cendiv-scca.org/03racing/01schedule/2009%20Tentative%20Schedule%20111108.pdf

[shwah]

Well, my schedule just got a lot easier to figure out next year.

After the debacle at MM last year, and the feeble attempt to run a regional at AB (one year on the North, one year on the South and done for good) I won't be heading back to MM and won't be going along for an experiment at BIR. I was looking forward to both RA doubles, but may just repurpose the cash and prepare for IT Fest and ARRC.

[cooleyjb]

Well, my schedule just got a lot easier to figure out next year.

After the debacle at MM last year, and the feeble attempt to run a regional at AB (one year on the North, one year on the South and done for good) I won't be heading back to MM and won't be going along for an experiment at BIR. I was looking forward to both RA doubles, but may just repurpose the cash and prepare for IT Fest and ARRC.


Would you like to see it switched back to a regional?

[shwah]

It just doesn't make any sense to change it to a national. The runoff hopefulls can all still come and test at a regional. All that is being done is limiting entries (and income from the event) while preventing a bunch of racers from participating.

I won't even address whether it is 'fair' for regional racers to compete with national racers. I think we all know this is a different decade than that.

The Tro CenDiv Championship excludes any who compete at the runoffs, so it will not have any impact on the regional level series points.

I am sure it isn't easy, but of course IT racers would like to not have half of thier chances to race at Road America taken away. Just speculating here that there is reluctance to run at Autobahn again due to cost and turnout, and there are only so many tracks that Nationals can run at, but after excluding IT cars from the MW RA event this year (AFTER it had been scheduled as a RR), it just looks like more of the same. That event is listed again, but is one week before the IT Fest, so ...

Yeah the short answer is I would like to see it remain a regional weekend (even though I missed it in 2008 because I had to travel for work...)

[ddewhurst]

2008 Kettle Sat.

IT race group 35 cars with 16 being SMT = 19 IT cars

Sat. total cars 130

[shwah]

You forgot the weather report Dave. Pouring down rain - to the tune of an ITB car taking first overall in a run group including ITR, ITS, ITA. I would have definitely been there were it not for an overseas trip interfereing, but some folks do avoid wet races.

And of course the point again is - the only thing that changes by making it a national is that we can't participate. Leave it a regional and all of the national racers will still be there.

[jumbojimbo]

looking at it from the organizers perspective...Run it as a national and your upside potential is higher because national drivers who come to test and get experience at a regional pay a lot less then if they come to the national.

Assumption on my part, but if you look at income you can probably expect to get fewer entries but similar income from the national due to the higher fee. and each extra national entry would equal more than 150% of each extra regional entry. Upside potential is higher.

I'm not saying it's right, but it is understandable from that side. RA is a limited quantity item, if you have the product, why waste it selling the cheaper product?

jim

jim hardesty
WOR Road Race Chair 2009
75 ITC Civic

[planet6racing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

You do not make more from a National weekend versus a Double Regional weekend, given the same number of participants. The fixed costs remain the same (track rental, emergency crews, etc), the only variable is the sanction fee from SCCA (1 National sanction vs. 2 regional sanctions). The entry fee for a National event is less than that for a double regional.

[shwah]

Sorry. Twice the race sessions more than covers the higher per race entry fee for a single national. That and 4 mile track leaves plenty of room to accomodate everyone with large groups, split starts and/or whatever else is deemed appropriate.

Right now the CenDiv regional sechedule has a few events, a big time gap and then 4 events all 2 weeks apart, with IT Fest on one of the off weeks, followed by 6 weeks of nothing an a double at BHF.

With one of those events listed as 'tentative' because the track has not been certified for SCCA (just like it had not when it was tossed onto the 07 schedule), and one that had the last event at that track cancelled less than 24 hours before the first scheduled session.

The bottom line is that the regional program in CenDiv is behind that of our neighbors. How is it that MidDiv finds a way to accomodate all racers at every race weekend, yet we can't?

Looking at this, I honestly may not run any 'home events'. Possibly the last one if any testing needs to be done before ARRC. I guess the next step is to stand up and get involved to help solve the problem...

[1stGenBoy]

Sorry. Twice the race sessions more than covers the higher per race entry fee for a single national. That and 4 mile track leaves plenty of room to accomodate everyone with large groups, split starts and/or whatever else is deemed appropriate.

Right now the CenDiv regional sechedule has a few events, a big time gap and then 4 events all 2 weeks apart, with IT Fest on one of the off weeks, followed by 6 weeks of nothing an a double at BHF.

With one of those events listed as 'tentative' because the track has not been certified for SCCA (just like it had not when it was tossed onto the 07 schedule), and one that had the last event at that track cancelled less than 24 hours before the first scheduled session.

The bottom line is that the regional program in CenDiv is behind that of our neighbors. How is it that MidDiv finds a way to accomodate all racers at every race weekend, yet we can't?

Looking at this, I honestly may not run any 'home events'. Possibly the last one if any testing needs to be done before ARRC. I guess the next step is to stand up and get involved to help solve the problem...

Yes, you do need to step up and get involved. It's not that hard but does take some time. Trust me the regions need the help. Many of us wear several hats on a race weekend in addition to driving. Not that we like to do all those extras but it, helps make the weekend go smoother for everyone. Don't know who to ask about getting involved? call or e-mail me me and I'll point you to the right person........
Anyways,

From the Apex Speed Site:
Some perspective from Chicago Region:

Unfortunately, we simply haven't had enough drivers attend our Autobahn events for us to consider returning there in 2009. We don't exist to make money, but we also can't afford to keep losing large sums there.

I had high hopes for the 2008 event, after a decent turnout for our first national there in 2007. But, for what I assume were various reasons (economy, general downturn in national racing entries, the fact that some don't like the Autobahn track, etc.), folks just didn't come out. We tried hard, it hasn't worked, and we can't keep banging our heads against that wall.

It's too bad, because it's a nice facility with good folks working there, a good location, and an interesting track. Drivers that like the track seem to like it a LOT. And Autobahn did a lot of work improving the facility each year, and smoothing out the surface prior to the 2008 season. I do hope we can return there again someday.

That brings us to the Kettle event. The loss of the Autobahn national would have brought the number of nationals in CenDiv down to four--a situation that certainly wouldn't serve our national drivers well. With the big FF anniversary at the Cat National in '09, there was no way for Milwaukee to make that a double national. For various reasons, Milwauke and BVR opted not to go that route at their Blackhawk events either.

So, the Kettle stands as the fifth national in the division. It was not an easy choice by any means, as we know that it excludes some regional drivers who love that track. We spent a lot of time discussing our responsibilities to both the regional drivers and the national drivers.

I can guarantee you it wasn't a financial decision. Most folks felt that the Kettle would draw a huge turnout of national drivers regardless of whether it was a national or double regional event, so income was not an issue.

As someone else noted, that big national driver turnout might not have made it the best environment for newcomer regional drivers anyway. That was a factor as well.

So, in the end, with input from the other regions in the Division, we decided to make it a national for '09.

I know some are disappointed by this change, and I certainly understand. I hope that you can at least understand the reasoning behind the decision, even if you don't agree with it.
As partial compensation, we did expand the Fall Sprints at BHF to a double regional, and I am optimistic that the Brainerd and Mile events will also be good events for regional drivers.

Thanks,
Tom Maycock
(just-retired RE of Chicago Region)


Bob Clark
Cen-Div Driver Licensing
[email protected]

[planet6racing]

Bob - Thanks for the insider info.

I'll call it right now - the Mile event won't happen. It will not be due to the Region not applying pressure to the track, it will be due to the track. From what I've been hearing in the local paper (I live ~2 miles from the track), they are short on money on not wanting to spend on anything, plus the local government is pushing them to be quieter (though the track has been there for, literally, over 100 years).

I hope that the BIR event happens and that gas stays low and that we all stay gainfully employed. That said, I know I'll already be curtailing my program for next year - one big major event in March to pay for is really killing the budget!

[1stGenBoy]

Just remember also that the Prepared rules changed for next year too. You are now allowed to run yout IT car at Nationals in DP back to 1985 model years. I fully intend to get my ITB car out and run two classes at Nationals now....GTL and DP.
I know it is not competitive in DP but I know a ITA car won the division in 07. Can't hurt to try.....and I'm already at the track with the other car.

[ddewhurst]

I would rather spend the money to travel to the Autobahn CC for a Regional that spend money for the Milwaukee mile road course. Done the mile once & that's enough. I rank the mile right along with Gateway which I have done twice. Yes, even with the economy in the tank the Miata will be racing next year. Ya know, we retired folks don't have all the time in the world to work on race cars.

I understand the noise for thosE around the mile & it must be a pain in the ass, oop's I mean ear. I live maybe 5 miles away & can hear cars MANY week days during the summer. The mile should eat shit & thank everyone who even thinks about using their facility. Their up front costs at the get go were $50,000.00 for a weekend to which I told one of the people from the mile that gave me the number that they were NUTS.

[jimbbski]

Those that race in CenDiv regionals should be grateful for the 1 race at RA. The past two years MCSCC has been hosed by RA with no race at all. Unless you consider early April, late Oct, early Nov. a weekday race, or Mother Day weekend as viable dates? I do have to admit that we could have had a date there in early Oct but we would have had to give up an Autobahn date and as opposed to SCCAs turnout, ours have been OK there.

[mengelke]

This is a one year deal as they are no longer going to Autobahn due to high costs. We needed another National so they converted the event for one year.

Most of you in IT can now run DP if you wanted to.

Mike Engelke

[1stGenBoy]

This is a one year deal as they are no longer going to Autobahn due to high costs. We needed another National so they converted the event for one year.

Most of you in IT can now run DP if you wanted to.

Mike Engelke

At least those of you with an 1985 or newer car. I intend to run a couple of nationals in my ITB car in ( STU ). They have changed the name from DP to STU.

[cooleyjb]

This is a one year deal as they are no longer going to Autobahn due to high costs. We needed another National so they converted the event for one year.

Most of you in IT can now run DP if you wanted to.

Mike Engelke


Where are you hearing this from?

[planet6racing]

It's been in the GCR for a couple of years now. ITR/ITS -> BP (STO now, I believe) and ITA/B/C -> DP (STU now). If a car that is built to the prepared specs shows up and is driven well, you won't see them except maybe in the rearview. But, you still can run in the Nationals.

[shwah]

This is a one year deal as they are no longer going to Autobahn due to high costs.
That is why it is not on the schedule right now, but I don't know that it is accurate to say that we are no longer going to the Autobahn. My understanding is that there are some that are working on solutions to get us back there, which I really appreciate.

[downingracing]

Or they could run it as a National with a Restricted Regional to include everyone... Helps pay the bills while giving everyone a chance to 'play'. With such a large track, you can just about fit most of the 'Regional Only' cars into a single group no matter how many show. (I realize there are some open wheel Regional Only classes and that would need to be addressed if there was interest...)

[mengelke]

Which part of my statement?

[shwah]

"no longer going to Autobahn due to higher costs"

It read as a permanent situation. Just clarifying that it may not be permanent.

[cooleyjb]

Which part of my statement?


The 'one year deal' of killing the Kettle.

I have heard nothing like that from any of the CenDiv region board members I've spoken with.

I don't see them changing it back to a double regional. Maybe a regional/national.

[1stGenBoy]

Or they could run it as a National with a Restricted Regional to include everyone... Helps pay the bills while giving everyone a chance to 'play'. With such a large track, you can just about fit most of the 'Regional Only' cars into a single group no matter how many show. (I realize there are some open wheel Regional Only classes and that would need to be addressed if there was interest...)

Are you talking about Road america or Autobahn? As a previous race chairman for SCCA events there you, will never get it all in at a two day event at RA. Not enough hours in the day.
All in one group? Let's see: would you want to run with Atlantics,Vees,SRF,GT-1 in the same group? No way and the stewards would never allow it. Ok so now you need an open wheel and closed wheel group. You have to remember that the GCR specifies that national races have a min amount of qualifying time and a certain length race distances so that pretty much chews up your days right then and there. At Ra you lose time on pace laps and cool down laps due to the length of the track plus your normal picking cars up etc. Now if you are just talking about an IT group only, been there done that at the Cat National. It was run as a restricted Regional for IT cars for several years. Never had very many cars show up. I think the most we had was 13 or 14 total one year. My 2 cents.

Bob

[1stGenBoy]

The 'one year deal' of killing the Kettle.

I have heard nothing like that from any of the CenDiv region board members I've spoken with.

I don't see them changing it back to a double regional. Maybe a regional/national.

Well I, tend to believe Mike as he is the Excutive Steward of CEN-DiV and has a hand in planning the divisions events.

[shwah]

Are you talking about Road america or Autobahn? As a previous race chairman for SCCA events there you, will never get it all in at a two day event at RA. Not enough hours in the day.
All in one group? Let's see: would you want to run with Atlantics,Vees,SRF,GT-1 in the same group? No way and the stewards would never allow it. Ok so now you need an open wheel and closed wheel group. You have to remember that the GCR specifies that national races have a min amount of qualifying time and a certain length race distances so that pretty much chews up your days right then and there. At Ra you lose time on pace laps and cool down laps due to the length of the track plus your normal picking cars up etc. Now if you are just talking about an IT group only, been there done that at the Cat National. It was run as a restricted Regional for IT cars for several years. Never had very many cars show up. I think the most we had was 13 or 14 total one year. My 2 cents.

Bob

Yeah but that was when there were two double regionals at RA bracketing that event. Now that one of those is gone, I would expect a very different turnout at a IT restricted regional.

[ddewhurst]

Why at Road America for end of practice sessions, qualifying & end of races don't the cars come off at turn # 5?

[downingracing]

A restricted Regional for IT cars might work since there is one less regionial to run there... When Mid-Ohio lost a regional weekend, we (OVR) added a restricted regional to the schedule and it does quite good. When another Regional was lost, we picked up that date too and it did very well for itself this year (the first year). And having never been there, would the cars off a T5 work? Might save considerable time getting people off the track to get the next group rolling. Again, I've never been there and don't have plans to come up that way to race anytime soon... Just tossing out ideas. :)

[1stGenBoy]

Why at Road America for end of practice sessions, qualifying & end of races don't the cars come off at turn # 5?

One of the issues is Impound for Tech. How do you impound the cars and make sure they are not messed with or return to the paddock before going up to the scales( escorted of course) and then to impound. I'm sure we could build a new scale pit somewhere down there and move post race Tech to the RA center. It might be something to look at.
We used to do this at the drivers schools when they were held there long ago. It did caused some issues if I remember right. I think traffic flow was an issue.That issue may be gone now that the bridge is gone.

David, Since you are always looking for something to do :) I, think you could be in charge of this. You could stand out on the track and direct the cars off at 5. Work for you?

FYI: we do not have practice sessions for the nationals ( all sessions before the races are qualifiers )

[1stGenBoy]

Yeah but that was when there were two double regionals at RA bracketing that event. Now that one of those is gone, I would expect a very different turnout at a IT restricted regional.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that. We tried everything including prize money to make that restricted IT race work. We even had a 2 hr enduro one year. Most of the IT guys I have talked to like the double race weekend format and not the single race weekend which is what Cat National is. Also the entry fee was a concern for many.
The restricted IT race will not happen for sure this year do to the fact that they are holding the 40th Formula Ford reunion that weekend along with the National race. That is the "restricted" part of that race.

[shwah]

I guess we have a different opinion on the matter then.

Make it a restricted regional IT race that counts towards the TRO championship and you will get good attendance. Before I never considered it because I had my hands and budget full getting to our championship races. I expect others had the same approach.

We just lost 1/2 of our opportunities to race at one of the greatest tracks in the world. If an opportunity is provided to regain some of that, and it is integrated into our series, you will see a 'typical' Road America regional IT turnout IMO.

[ddewhurst]

***David, Since you are always looking for something to do :) I, think you could be in charge of this. You could stand out on the track and direct the cars off at 5. Work for you?***

Bob, I really don't want to come off negative but life is what life is with the Milwaukee Region. When I joined I tried to get involved & was told by a long standing member that until I learned something about racing I should not be heard. :( Nuff said in public. Ask me off line some time who made the statement. Back early 90's when I raced Karts I wanted nothing to do with racing Karts at Road America so at Road America I teched Karts & supported Badger Kart Club doing other items. :)

***FYI: we do not have practice sessions for the nationals ( all sessions before the races are qualifiers )***

Change is good. If change improves the process of the weekend & or of the event then it should be worth looking at. Forget the cost factor at the brainstorm time. http://72.167.111.130/forums/images/chromium/blue/misc/progress.gif

[1stGenBoy]

I guess we have a different opinion on the matter then.

Make it a restricted regional IT race that counts towards the TRO championship and you will get good attendance. Before I never considered it because I had my hands and budget full getting to our championship races. I expect others had the same approach.

We just lost 1/2 of our opportunities to race at one of the greatest tracks in the world. If an opportunity is provided to regain some of that, and it is integrated into our series, you will see a 'typical' Road America regional IT turnout IMO.

Yes I guess we do have a different opinions. That's good right? That said I, would suggest to all of you who feel strongly about issues like this to get involved with your regions race programs on the administration side. It will be a big eye opener. Volunteer to work with the competition committee in your region. They do need the help and it really does not take a lot of time and is fun.
As for running a restricted regional as part of the TRO series I think you would have to check to make sure the series rules allow that. I also believe this is only a 1 year change in the schedule. Hopefully next year there will be another track on line to pick up that national race. The SCCA National BOD has yet to approve this third national as it is required to do under the rule of " no more than two national races at one track"
I would expect them to approve this on a one time basis for next year but as I have said it has not been approved as of yet.

Bob

[1stGenBoy]

***David, Since you are always looking for something to do :) I, think you could be in charge of this. You could stand out on the track and direct the cars off at 5. Work for you?***

Bob, I really don't want to come off negative but life is what life is with the Milwaukee Region. When I joined I tried to get involved & was told by a long standing member that until I learned something about racing I should not be heard. :( Nuff said in public. Ask me off line some time who made the statement. Back early 90's when I raced Karts I wanted nothing to do with racing Karts at Road America so at Road America I teched Karts & supported Badger Kart Club doing other items. :)

***FYI: we do not have practice sessions for the nationals ( all sessions before the races are qualifiers )***

Change is good. If change improves the process of the weekend & or of the event then it should be worth looking at. Forget the cost factor at the brainstorm time. http://72.167.111.130/forums/images/chromium/blue/misc/progress.gif

David,
I think you will find things have changed a lot since then. You know we always need help for the races at RA. If you want to come for a Milw region comp meeting and see what's going on let me know and I'll tag along too. You will be more than welcome I can assure you. As a former Comp committee chairman you, will be surprised what goes on and into making a sucessfull race. The meetings are open to any member and Yes there are some stick in the muds out there yet but the Exec Steward has been working very hard to eliminate this. A lot of good ideas are suggested but just like the real world only a few are viable. Still never hurts to try....

Bob

[cooleyjb]

Well I, tend to believe Mike as he is the Excutive Steward of CEN-DiV and has a hand in planning the divisions events.


Well he hasn't said anything about it yet.

As for the conversations I've had with the Chicago region folks that made the decision they have never mentioned anything of the sort. Since it is there event I'd say that they would have more of a firsthand knowledge than he does. No reason to hold back the info that "it's just for this year" information on their part.

[kevinc]

Well he hasn't said anything about it yet.

As for the conversations I've had with the Chicago region folks that made the decision they have never mentioned anything of the sort. Since it is there event I'd say that they would have more of a firsthand knowledge than he does. No reason to hold back the info that "it's just for this year" information on their part.

Not sure who you are referring to has "never mentioned anything of the sort", but let me make a couple of statements on this thread:

Regarding the Kettle: Mike is accurate - we have made a decision for 2009 only, and not a blanket decision/plan for the future. We won't be making any decisions on 2010 for quite some time. Waaaay too far out to do that yet. There are several options, and there are too many if-then-else branches in the equation that are out of our control before we can get there. Remember this: a year ago at this point, who thought that Road America would be getting the Runoffs?

Regarding Autobahn: As has been well documented elsewhere, there are some financial hurdles to clear before we can return. Having said that, we have left ABJ on good terms (this is NOT a Putnam Park situation). The door is not closed to a return, and we have some ideas how it could be a financial success. Of course, right now a lot of what happens with the economy will affect what we can do. Do I want to go back there? yes! Do I think we will go back there? I just don't know.

At this past week's Chicago Region Competition Committee meeting, we did discuss our customer's reaction to the schedule, and made sure the feelings expressed here and other forums were known to non-forum reading members of the committee.

Myself, along with the current and previous RE of Chicago Region, have in the past, and will continue to have discussions with Mike as to our schedule plans.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Kevin Coulter
Chicago Region
2009 Competition Committee Chairman

[planet6racing]

Well he hasn't said anything about it yet.



See Post #17 (in this very thread, no less): http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278379&postcount=17

[rabbidmk1]

So if BIR proves itself worthy this year, what are the chances that there be a national held there next year and open up the kettle for regionals again?:shrug:

[1stGenBoy]

Well he hasn't said anything about it yet.

As for the conversations I've had with the Chicago region folks that made the decision they have never mentioned anything of the sort. Since it is there event I'd say that they would have more of a firsthand knowledge than he does. No reason to hold back the info that "it's just for this year" information on their part.

See post 12 in this very tpoic and thread for Chicago Region's response...

[cooleyjb]

See post 12 in this very tpoic and thread for Chicago Region's response...

I did see that. Before it was posted here even


See Post #17 (in this very thread, no less): http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278379&postcount=17

I was actually questioning that response if you go back and read the rest of the posts in this thread.


Not sure who you are referring to has "never mentioned anything of the sort", but let me make a couple of statements on this thread:

Regarding the Kettle: Mike is accurate - we have made a decision for 2009 only, and not a blanket decision/plan for the future. We won't be making any decisions on 2010 for quite some time. Waaaay too far out to do that yet. There are several options, and there are too many if-then-else branches in the equation that are out of our control before we can get there. Remember this: a year ago at this point, who thought that Road America would be getting the Runoffs?

Regarding Autobahn: As has been well documented elsewhere, there are some financial hurdles to clear before we can return. Having said that, we have left ABJ on good terms (this is NOT a Putnam Park situation). The door is not closed to a return, and we have some ideas how it could be a financial success. Of course, right now a lot of what happens with the economy will affect what we can do. Do I want to go back there? yes! Do I think we will go back there? I just don't know.

At this past week's Chicago Region Competition Committee meeting, we did discuss our customer's reaction to the schedule, and made sure the feelings expressed here and other forums were known to non-forum reading members of the committee.

Myself, along with the current and previous RE of Chicago Region, have in the past, and will continue to have discussions with Mike as to our schedule plans.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Kevin Coulter
Chicago Region
2009 Competition Committee Chairman

Thanks for the response. I just don't see the Kettle being switched back to the double regional unless the division goes back to Autobahn and it sounds like Chicago won't do that very readily. There has been nothing other than what you have about the future possibilities of the Kettle going back to a regional. Maybe if that had been said very plainly in teh beginning it might have been a better reception. However everything in your post makes me fairly confident that the Kettle will be a national for 2010 as well.

IT and other regional classes can only hope that Council can get a date at RA in order to run in their classes more than once.

As for ABJ, did the talk of a double national come up. With the up until recent fuel issues, and current economic issues double nationals were considered almost a guarantee for the 2009 season yet there are none in the CENDIV.

[mengelke]

I can assure you in 2010 the Kettle will be a double regional. I discussed several options about Autobahn and the future of Brainerd. As the Exec Steward this is what I need to do to bring balance to the division. I will tell you that National/Regionals will not work in Cen-Div. We have too many National cars. Everywhere else Regional racing is king. Regional drivers are what makes those events successful.

On the surface having a restricted IT Regional looks good to your group. On the other side you are dis-enfrancising the formula classes who bring strong fields as well.

Not an easy decision either way.

Mike Engelke