Sunroof Removal

[jdi]

I've got a question on the sunroof removal rule. I'm building an Integra GS-R for ITS. GS-Rs always came with a sunroof. The Integra RS was offered without a sunroof, but is listed in ITA. Is it legal to reskin the roof of the GS-R with an RS skin?

I believe the "All sunroofs may be replaced with panel or *replacement skin* [emphasis mine] of the same material as the original surrounding roof material" line in rule 8f allows me to, but I've heard others express different opinions.

And the entire rule, for reference:

8f. Convertible tops and attaching hardware shall be completely removed. Note: Convertible model cars are permitted if they were only available as convertibles (e.g. MG Midget), or if the convertible model is specifically allowed on the vehicle spec line. Convertible models may compete with their respective OEM hardtop. All latches shall be replaced with positive fasteners. Manual and electric sunroofs, original or aftermarket, where the panel is not normally removable shall be retained and run in the closed position. Components (motors, cables, rails) may be removed provided the panel is securely retained. Removable
sunroof or T-top may be retained if bolted or welded in, or removed completely. Glass sunroofs must be removed. All sunroofs may be replaced with panel or replacement skin of the same material as the original surrounding roof material.

[quadzjr]

That is a grey area. You are not alowed to perform modifications outside yoru spec line but yet you are replacing it with fatory sheet metal. That other than a sun roof provsision is idential. I believe that this would be 100% legal to the word if the a GSR came without a sun roof and you were to swap one on. I doubt highly that you would be called out on it, but I would like to see what others think. It does say however that you can remove all compents including the rails thus makign the roof identical to a RS roof with the exception of a small hole :)

[CRallo]

I believe this would be akin to puttin a 99 dif in a 90 Miata. The cars are on different spec lines, but the dif is open. no pun intended :D

check that, I just reread the rule for a third time. :blink: The rule allows only for replacement of the sunroof panel, not the entire roof... :shrug:

[Greg Amy]

I'm building an Integra GS-R for ITS.
Don't do it; you'll be sorry...


Is it legal to reskin the roof of the GS-R with an RS skin?I'll copy-paste here what I wrote in the Sandbox:


Originally Posted by krbobcat
Are you guys building another ITS GSR or a ITA RS/LS/GS? If it's going to be a ITS GSR, the general consensus has been that it's supposed to have a sunroof hole. Trust me: it will start with a sunroof hole. However, our patching and repair job will be so flawless - so divine - as to appear to be a singular sheet of stamped steel. I, personally, will supervise the contracted old-school Italian craftsman who will trim, cap, weld, and grind, sand, and paint the repair to its penultimate completion - to my extreme satisfaction, of course, or he will face the whip, as many times as necessary.

Of course, once Geppeto's job is done, he will be rewarded handsomely. His craftsmanship will be such that I dare you - DARE YOU UNDER THE THREAT OF DEATH ITSELF, YOU DOG! - to prove that there was a sunroof there before. And, afterwards, you will marvel, simply marvel, and beg Kakashi Racing to contract the services of him for yourselves.

Hey, just sayin'... http://www.roadraceautox.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif

P.S. Oh, and he's going to do the same thing with the auto-tranny hole, as soon as he gets done with that damnable puppet.

[quadzjr]

No matter how well your servents did on patching the roof it will be noticable. unless they remove parts of the roof that was to provide strucatal support for the once sun roof. If they were to remove said pieces then it would be just as illegal as having your "patch" consist of the enitre roof.

It mentions "replacement skin" what exactly does mean? That is later requried to be the same material as the original roof material around it. So if your patch was identical material thickness and metalurgy and you were to only use the center section of the roof wouldn't that be legit?

[spnkzss]

2008 GCR
9.1.3.8.f. pg GCR - 338

Convertible tops and attaching hardware shall be completely removed. Note: Convertible model cars are permitted if they were only available as convertibles (e.g. MG Midget), or if the convertible model is specifically allowed on the vehicle spec line. Convertible models may compete with their respective OEM hardtop. All latches shall be replaced with positive fasteners. Manual and electric sunroofs, original or aftermarket, where the panel is not normally removable shall be retained and run in the closed position. Components (motors, cables, rails) may be removed provided the panel is securely retained. Removable
sunroof or T-top may be retained if bolted or welded in, or removed completely. Glass sunroofs must be removed. All sunroofs may be replaced with panel or replacement skin of the same material as the original surrounding roof material.



Sounds ok to me. Same material, who cares where it came from :shrug:

[Knestis]

With respect to Gepetto - and not knowing what the details inside a sunroof-equipped Acura roof look like - I think that there is indeed a difference between what's described by the rule and re-roofing.

When I did Pablo I, we went for a "hide it in plain sight" approach, using a single sheet of material the same thickness of the roof (a hair thicker, actually), just large enough to have a flange for riveting. We then painted it black to look like the original tinted moon roof.

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/sunroof.jpg

The Golf III DID come without a sunroof so on Pablo II we used that option. If it had not, we could have skinned but I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea that cutting out the structure under the hole would be legal.

K

[Xian]

I'm going to side with Dr Khaos and Quadzjr here... the allowance for replacement skin doesn't say anything about removing the sunroof reinforcement structure around where the sunroof used to be. Now if tGA is planning to have Geppeto leave that structure in place, I think he'll be just fine. ;)

[trhoppe]

I'm going to side with Dr Khaos and Quadzjr here... the allowance for replacement skin doesn't say anything about removing the sunroof reinforcement structure around where the sunroof used to be. Now if tGA is planning to have Geppeto leave that structure in place, I think he'll be just fine. ;)
I know Geppeto worked on my ITA integra, and you cannot even tell there used to be a sunroof there. He does amazing work. Its *almost* like its all one solid panel, well except that we KNOW its not. :)

-Tom

[quadzjr]

Now when you are in the car and look up can you see the rolled factory sheet metal? If geppeto were to make it nice and flat and not noticable he would of had to remove it thus being jsut as illegal as a re-skin.

[trhoppe]

Now when you are in the car and look up can you see the rolled factory sheet metal? If geppeto were to make it nice and flat and not noticable he would of had to remove it thus being jsut as illegal as a re-skin.
He knocked it flat against the sheetmetal to the point where its almost invisible to the naked eye.

-Tom

[Xian]

Interesting... now I know how I'll always be able to beat you.

Christian, who says "on the track or in the shed". ;)

[Knestis]

...except that (I think) some of the Integras on the ITA spec line came WITHOUT a sunroof.

That's not the problem, thanks to update/backdate. The issue here is the GS-R in ITS, all of which DID have the roof. It's two different situations so the outcome of applying the rule is different.

Or am I missing something...???

K

[Xian]

No, you nailed it Kirk. I forgot about the RS being on the same spec line for the A cars.

ITA Teg= RS, LS, GS... RS came without a sunroof.
ITA CRX/Civic Si with a sunroof only.
ITS Teg=GSR with a sunroof only.

[Greg Amy]

I'm a bit confused about the confusion here.

First, the rules specifically state "replacement skins" are allowed, so no one can gripe about someone choosing to replace the whole top with a single piece of steel. In other words, "re-roofing" is allowed vis-a-vis the part you see from the outside.

Second, you're worried about the "structure" underneath the reskinned panel? There's actually less structure (thus, less weight) with a sunroof car, because all the manufacturer effectively does is cut a hole in the non-sunroof car and add a bunch of mechanical devices (which are allowed to be removed) to activate the sunroof. So that's a non-issue.

Invariably, however, as part of the sunroof mods at the factory, there's a light stamped-steel transverse cross brace that gets bisected, a brace designed to keep the sunroof from "oil canning" and making noise. With the sunroof car, this "oil canning" is prevented by flanging the roof skin around the hole opening, and designing sunroof mounting bracketry for stiffness.

So, since the roof panel can be replaced, obviously this flange will be removed, and all this bracketry will be removed.

So, that leaves only that stamped transverse bracket that's going through where the sunroof hole used to be; is that the part you're worried about? So, if someone were to bi/trisect that bracket and cut it out like it is in the sunroof car, you'd be OK with that?

Go find an LS and an RS Integra (or a sunroof and non-sunroof GTi, or a sunroof and non-sunroof Sentra SE-R) and compare the underside roof differences. I'm bettin' they're all the same, except for the hole, the hole flanges, and possibly that one lightweight transverse bracket.

I see where you're going, but this is seriously a non-issue. - GA

[Knestis]

Model differences then. There's actually a subframe kind of affair on the sunroof Golfs that isn't on the non-roof versions.

K

[CRallo]

well at this point it is clear that it all depends on how you interpet the rule...

I already gave my view earlier, you guys hash it out

[JimLill]

Model differences then. There's actually a subframe kind of affair on the sunroof Golfs that isn't on the non-roof versions.

On A2, the back half of the roof has what is in effect an inner roof panel and the sunroof goes back between that panel and the outer skin. A3 prob the same

[lateapex911]

Greg, not all cars are created equal sunroof-wise. Soem cars have lift out sunroofs. With those, you can:

A- Just reskin the upper sunroof panel area.
B- Reroof the car with the roof of a non sunroof version, IF it's on the same spec line.

Cars with lift out roof panels have significant reinforcing stampings spot welded to the roof structure, gutters, and the like, and the actual weight savings is dependent upon going all the way. The actual lift out part is only half the game.

But, if the car in question, as described by the spec line, never came without a sunroof, then reskinning is the only option, and the reinforcing stampings must remain, in my opinion.

[quadzjr]

I am going to play devils advoateand use the vin rule as my catalyst. Say you find 99' DX chassis and wanted to run ITS (99'si)

Since the infrastrure for the sunroof is not there would it be illegal?

[Greg Amy]

Since the infrastrure for the sunroof is not there would it be illegal?
More details. Got drawings/pics?

We're taking delivery of the RS this coming weekend, and Jeremy will probably have that thing stripped faster than a shark head on an ant pile. I'll take some interior roof photos comparing the GS-R to the RS and post 'em. - GA

[Knestis]

>> ...Jeremy will probably have that thing stripped faster than a shark head on an ant pile

Quaint. That must be a New England nugget.

K

[Knestis]

I am going to play devils advoateand use the vin rule as my catalyst. Say you find 99' DX chassis and wanted to run ITS (99'si)

Since the infrastrure for the sunroof is not there would it be illegal?

You've got to adhere to the standards set by the years/models on the spec line under which you are racing. If all Si's came with a sunroof, and IF there were substantial structure under the skin, you could re-skin but not remove the structure. Abolishing the VIN requirement changes nothing about this.

K

[quadzjr]

All SI's came wit an sunroof. When yo uuse the rem "re skin" are you refering to drilling out all the spot welds to remove the exterior skin while retaining the braces? and on an SI model I believe there are extra braces for the sunroof. Since a DX would not have such braces.. would it be illegal..

In anycase, I think that if anybody were to protest a car for this reason would be very un-sporting. This would be a perfect option for somebody that don't know how to do body work but can cut out spot welds in his garage.

[Greg Amy]

Quaint. That must be a New England nugget.
;) Cajun, sha. And dat der "time-span", sha? 'taint much t'all.

[JoshS]

I am going to play devils advoateand use the vin rule as my catalyst. Say you find 99' DX chassis and wanted to run ITS (99'si)

Since the infrastrure for the sunroof is not there would it be illegal?
I say yes, it would be illegal.

[jdi]

Thanks for all the responses.

After reading the different angles on this, I think I'll stay on the safe side and just make a sheet metal plug for the hole.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Thanks for all the responses.

After reading the different angles on this, I think I'll stay on the safe side and just make a sheet metal plug for the hole.

If you want to wait I will probably have pictures up early next week.

[jdi]

Please do. The car is a weekend project for me and I haven't put the cage in yet, so the sunroof plug is a ways off still.

[Jeremy Billiel]

I do not have pictures yet, but last night I did look at the GSR roof and the RS roof and they are just about identical. In fact you could argue that the RS has an additional roof brace that should be reomved as this is where the sunroof opening would have been.

IMO this is a mute issue.

[Ed Funk]

IMO this is a mute issue.

If we can't hear it, it certainly becomes moot!:)

Sorry, couldn't resist.:024:

[Jeremy Billiel]

Sorry MOOT issue!

[dickita15]

Well you know Ed, the kid is a finance guy not an English major.:D

[Greg Amy]

Well you know Ed, the kid is a finance guy not an English major.:D
...and NO ONE has ever accused Jeremy Billiel of being "mute"....

:)

[Jeremy Billiel]

LMAO.... Thanks guys!