E36 thoughts? (man!, not much traffic here)...

[Spinnetti]

Kinda considering a 92-96 E36 325 for a next race car (have a fully prepped ITA car now). Is this a good choice or is there better? Would it be better to run a 328? or? If I build a new one, it will be an E36 something, but not sure which one, or what class, or what years to get/avoid.... advice?

[Z3_GoCar]

One thing to remember about the M-50 motored 325 is that the intake manifold is the envy of all the later M/S-52 motors. In the case of the S-52, a M-50 manifold swap will gain ~15-20hp alone. The later manifolds have narrower runners, and because they're ABS plastic can't be port matched, so they definetly don't have the gains that the M-50's see. So, if you found a good doner go for it.

[lateapex911]

Is the later manifold on the same spec line as the earlier M50?? If so, i presume the M50 motor is inferior to the later motor, but the earlier manifold superior?

[JeffYoung]

I'll let the BMW guys confirm, but I think that is the case. The M50 and S50 were the 2.5 OBDI and 3.0 OBDI motors that went in the early E36 325s and the 95 M3. The M52 was an OBDII 2.5 and the S52 OBDII 3.2 in the M3/Roadster/Coupe.

I THINK all of the E36 325s are on the same spec line, allowing use of the early manifold on all cars.

[CCARVER]

We have 6 of them at our local series, and they are all fast and in different trims.
Should be a fun car, and it is well supported.
Carver

[Knestis]

A "manifold" is an "assembly...?"

Bzzzt. Wrong.

"Any updated/backdated components shall be substituted as a complete assembly (engine long block, transmission/transaxle, induction system, differential/axle housing)..." (2008 GCR, emphasis mine)

If the rest of the "induction system" is IDENTICAL, then you're OK, but that seems pretty unlikely in this case. You can use the entire OBDI sytem or the entire OBDII system (ignoring the detail distinctions between/among versions for the sake of this argument) but you cannot cherry pick individual parts.

K

[dj10]

I'll let the BMW guys confirm, but I think that is the case. The M50 and S50 were the 2.5 OBDI and 3.0 OBDI motors that went in the early E36 325s and the 95 M3. The M52 was an OBDII 2.5 and the S52 OBDII 3.2 in the M3/Roadster/Coupe.

I THINK all of the E36 325s are on the same spec line, allowing use of the early manifold on all cars.

If you have a 328, Z3 you better NOT have a M50 Manifold!

[JeffYoung]

Dan, if I wasn't clear, I meant 325s only.

Kirk, I agree -- I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the entire OBDI induction system including the manifold (the plenum, etc.) would transfer over. In fact, I suspect it HAS to to use the M50 manifold. Since ECU is now free, shouldn't be an OBDI/II issue with the rest of the harness, etc.

[buldogge]

All the E36 325 in ITS/ITR are OBDI and ALL have the same manifold...

The M50NV (non-VANOS) is 1992 only
The M50TU is the VANOS model from 1993-1995
*The above reside on the same spec-line*

The M52 is the 2.8l OBDII from 1996-1999
The S50 is the OBDI '95 M3 3.0l
The S52 is the OBDII 96-99 M3 3.2l

The M52TU is the E46 2.5l (99-00 323)
The M52B28 is the E46/Z3 2.8l
The M54 is the E46/Z3 3.0l
ALL of these are OBDII and Double VANOS

FWIW...The gains are not 15-20hp when swapping on an OBDII car...those are Dinan/Conforti type numbers for sure...there is a gain of course...but to realize greater gains requires larger injectors and a larger HFM (MAF) neither of which woulkd be IT legal anyway.

This is the exact reason I said the '95 M3 should be allowed in ITR...1995 ONLY uses the same 17.5# injectors as the 325's and the same 3" MAF (as does the 96-99 M3 FWIW). With the 17.5# injectors and no MAF swap the power differences will be minimal... .5l greater capacity and slightly hotter cams.

[JoshS]

All the E36 325 in ITS/ITR are OBDI and ALL have the same manifold...

The M50NV (non-VANOS) is 1992 only
The M50TU is the VANOS model from 1993-1995
*The above reside on the same spec-line*

The M52 is the 2.8l OBDII from 1996-1999
The S50 is the OBDI '95 M3 3.0l
The S52 is the OBDII 96-99 M3 3.2l

The M52TU is the E46 2.5l (99-00 323)
The M52B28 is the E46/Z3 2.8l
The M54 is the E46/Z3 3.0l
ALL of these are OBDII and Double VANOS


Oh, so close! Until you got to 1999 you were doing great.

M52B28: E36 2.8L from '96-'99 E36 328i and '97-'98 Z3 2.8.
M52tuB25: E46 323i and '99+ Z3 2.3
M52tuB28: E46 328i and '99+ Z3 2.8

M54B25: E46 325i and Z3 2.5i
M54B30: E46 330i and Z3 3.0i

[buldogge]

Looks to me like we're in agreement...

I just left out some of the Z3's...which is kinda funny given I'm an MCoupe guy...or maybe that's just it...MCoupe snobbery! ;)


Oh, so close! Until you got to 1999 you were doing great.

M52B28: E36 2.8L from '96-'99 E36 328i and '97-'98 Z3 2.8.
M52tuB25: E46 323i and '99+ Z3 2.3
M52tuB28: E46 328i and '99+ Z3 2.8

M54B25: E46 325i and Z3 2.5i
M54B30: E46 330i and Z3 3.0i

[Z3_GoCar]

If you have a 328, Z3 you better NOT have a M50 Manifold!

Alright Dan, if you want the M-50 manifold sitting on my garage floor, I'll sell it to you :p

[JoshS]

Looks to me like we're in agreement...

I just left out some of the Z3's...which is kinda funny given I'm an MCoupe guy...or maybe that's just it...MCoupe snobbery! ;)

The real correction wasn't the Z3s, it was that the M52B28 was an E46 motor ... it was really an E36 motor.

I was just including the Z3s for completeness, especially because a lot of people don't realize that they have both E36 and E46 engines.

[buldogge]

I unfortunately simply left the TU out after the M52 in the second listing as I was following the M52TU 2.5l.

To clarify...M52B28 is E36 Single VANOS 2.8l and M52TUB28 is E46 Double VANOS 2.8l

Now we've have officially bored everyone...


The real correction wasn't the Z3s, it was that the M52B28 was an E46 motor ... it was really an E36 motor.

I was just including the Z3s for completeness, especially because a lot of people don't realize that they have both E36 and E46 engines.

[dj10]

Alright Dan, if you want the M-50 manifold sitting on my garage floor, I'll sell it to you :p

Thank you any way James, last time I looked I had one.:) I could use 2 front doors, bumper cover, front fender w/ liners and a trunk lid and some more money.:(
BTW, I have a 328 manifold I'll sell you.:cool:

[Z3_GoCar]

Thank you any way James, last time I looked I had one.:) I could use 2 front doors, bumper cover, front fender w/ liners and a trunk lid and some more money.:(
BTW, I have a 328 manifold I'll sell you.:cool:

I've got one of those too. The throttle housing on it is wrong though. I think the one on the M-50 is correct because it should look like the attached housing. The one that came with the M-52 manifold doesn't have the rod assembly. Both have the Delorto markings and BMW symbol so they're both stock to some BMW. Sorry about the money part, I definetly can relate there:blink:

[chuck baader]

What no one seems to address is the cost of running S vs. A. Figure about 4-5 times the expense. Gas, TIRES, BRAKES, and parts in general are much more expensive. Then, if you have the dreaded money shift, wow:o...that can be very expensive if you do not do your own engine work. In addition, the many of the front runners are running Motec engine management to the tune of around 6k. After all this, you get to run about 2 1/2 seconds faster than the fast A cars at Road Atlanta and about 1/2 second at RR. Chuck

[GKR_17]

The real correction wasn't the Z3s, it was that the M52B28 was an E46 motor ... it was really an E36 motor.

I was just including the Z3s for completeness, especially because a lot of people don't realize that they have both E36 and E46 engines.

And yet it was classed in ITR based on the E36 (single VANOS) numbers.

[JoshS]

And yet it was classed in ITR based on the E36 (single VANOS) numbers.
I wasn't involved, but I don't think that's true.

Looks to me like 193hp (double vanos engine) * 1.3 (30% multiplier) * 11.25 - 25lbs adjuster (no idea why, the other Z3s got -50 lbs) comes out to 2798, rounded to 2800, which is the listed weight.

If I start with 189hp (single vanos engine) I can't come up with any math that comes out to 2800.

[Spinnetti]

I got lost a bit in the spec line one-upsmanship So, lets say I want to run ITS (apply same logic to ITR).

> Is there a best year of the E36? e.g. 94 better than 92?
> Am I better off with a 325 or 328? (competitiveness, parts cost, other?)
> Is a 4dr better or worse than a 2dr?

325s are fairly falling off the trees here (92 4 doors especially), so getting a high mileage example that is fairly straight is cheap enough, but which one?

[Knestis]

I wasn't involved, but I don't think that's true.

Looks to me like 193hp (double vanos engine) * 1.3 (30% multiplier) * 11.25 - 25lbs adjuster (no idea why, the other Z3s got -50 lbs) comes out to 2798, rounded to 2800, which is the listed weight.

If I start with 189hp (single vanos engine) I can't come up with any math that comes out to 2800.

Hmmm.

Accepting that I don't know squat about these cars, if there are indeed two substantively different engines available in the Z3 (double, single Vanos) - particularly with different quoted stock power - it seems like they should probably be on different spec lines. To my mind, that might constitute "different generations" of the same car.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

Hmmm.

Accepting that I don't know squat about these cars, if there are indeed two substantively different engines available in the Z3 (double, single Vanos) - particularly with different quoted stock power - it seems like they should probably be on different spec lines. To my mind, that might constitute "different generations" of the same car.

K

Kirk, since this is off the OP's topic, I'll respond to you first. Not only are the motors different, the body panels around the rear finders, trunk and tail lights are different too. I argued for a split between single and double Vanos cars because of major differnces between the heads and intake manifolds, but in the end it was decided that it would open up the parts avalibility. Actually, they're both the same motor designation, just the DV is a "Technical Update". Splitting them would result in about 18K North American bound 97-98's and 7.5K 99-00's, so you can see we're dealing with relitively small numbers. If Josh's coupe were its own spec line it wouldn't meet homolgation numbers with less than 900 made, (Splitwise, it's one of the ~7.5k.)


I got lost a bit in the spec line one-upsmanship So, lets say I want to run ITS (apply same logic to ITR).

> Is there a best year of the E36? e.g. 94 better than 92?
> Am I better off with a 325 or 328? (competitiveness, parts cost, other?)
> Is a 4dr better or worse than a 2dr?

325s are fairly falling off the trees here (92 4 doors especially), so getting a high mileage example that is fairly straight is cheap enough, but which one?

What's going to narrow your search is looking for one with a manual. They are more common with manuals than most luxuary cars, but still a fair number are automatic's.

Since the M-50 and M-50tu are on the same spec line, you can start out with a fixed timing and change to a single Vanos later. In the end a good motor build will get you more power than starting with either motor.

[JoshS]

Kirk, since this is off the OP's topic, I'll respond to you first. Not only are the motors different, the body panels around the rear finders, trunk and tail lights are different too. I argued for a split between single and double Vanos cars because of major differnces between the heads and intake manifolds, but in the end it was decided that it would open up the parts avalibility. Actually, they're both the same motor designation, just the DV is a "Technical Update". Splitting them would result in about 18K North American bound 97-98's and 7.5K 99-00's, so you can see we're dealing with relitively small numbers. If Josh's coupe were its own spec line it wouldn't meet homolgation numbers with less than 900 made, (Splitwise, it's one of the ~7.5k.)

Guys, it's not that simple.

Just breaking it down the Z3s:

'97-'98 2.8 Roadster -- 189hp, old body
'99 2.8 Roadster -- 193hp, old body
'00 2.8 Roadster -- 193hp, new body
'01-'02 3.0 Roadster -- 225hp, new body

The Coupe bodies are mechanically identical to their roadster counterpart in any given year, but there was only one body type, and it ran from '99-'02.

Okay, now how many spec lines do you need?

I say it was done right. All of this nonsense (4 roadster variants, 2 coupe variants) managed down to two spec lines, based on engine size.

The philosophy is class by the best drivetrain, and let the others update/backdate. Body style of the rear fenders seems largely irrelevant.

[Knestis]

As I admitted, I don't know the cars. And that would be a lot of spec lines.

However (speaking academically) I worry a little about situations that open the door for Frankencar solutions that might prove to be particularly good - even within the constraints of the existing update/backdate rule.

I don't know enough to trot out a good example to support my concern...

K

EDIT - ...and it's been a LOOONG damned time since I even thought about the "How many?" question. We worried a lot about that back in the Olden Days but it's largely fallen off the radar.

[GKR_17]

Hmmm.

Accepting that I don't know squat about these cars, if there are indeed two substantively different engines available in the Z3 (double, single Vanos) - particularly with different quoted stock power - it seems like they should probably be on different spec lines. To my mind, that might constitute "different generations" of the same car.

K

The E36 is a similar case. Same spec line for 92-95 models (ITS or ITR), but the 92 engine is non-VANOS with half a point less compression (though same quoted hp). The only way to go is with the later engines. An unrestricted 92 engine may actually be right on target for ITS at the current weight (but we'll never know).

[Z3_GoCar]

Guys, it's not that simple.

Just breaking it down the Z3s:

'97-'98 2.8 Roadster -- 189hp, old body
'99 2.8 Roadster -- 193hp, old body
'00 2.8 Roadster -- 193hp, new body
'01-'02 3.0 Roadster -- 225hp, new body

The Coupe bodies are mechanically identical to their roadster counterpart in any given year, but there was only one body type, and it ran from '99-'02.

Okay, now how many spec lines do you need?

I say it was done right. All of this nonsense (4 roadster variants, 2 coupe variants) managed down to two spec lines, based on engine size.

The philosophy is class by the best drivetrain, and let the others update/backdate. Body style of the rear fenders seems largely irrelevant.

Except if it's split along the single/dual vanos line and using the same process the '97-'98s come out at 2739lbs. That's like 60lbs less.....

[JeffYoung]

When we were classing these cars we had no idea of the difference.

Is it significant?

[JoshS]

When we were classing these cars we had no idea of the difference.

Is it significant?
I don't think it's significant, and I don't think we want yet another spec line either. I understand where James is coming from since he has a 189hp car, but frankly, I'm not sure that the 189hp version doesn't have more ultimate potential. The E36 engines are certainly a lot better known and undersstood than the E46 engines.

[Z3_GoCar]

My main issue is it's 60 more pounds I have to bolt on the floor. Oh, and then there's the ultimate performance issue to deal with too. I understand that the tu and M-54's aren't as developed as the M-50/52, how they will ultimatly respond to a good build up is anyones guess. I guess is it'll be at least 4hp more ultimatly, but that's a swag.

Sorry about the hi-jack OP....

[Spinnetti]

Dang. 29 posts and nobody can answer my question? Are BMW guys always like this? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong car after all!

Bueller? Anyone?

which year if it matters and why, 2 or 4 door, 325 or 328? I know I need a manual, what is most competitive?

[gpbmw]

I have two very nice E36's that are ready to race. Why build...?

[Knestis]

Because in general, (a) most of us seem to think we can build race cars for less than they actually cost, and (b) most of us getting rid of race cars try to sell them for more than they are actually worth... :)

K

[dj10]

Dang. 29 posts and nobody can answer my question? Are BMW guys always like this? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong car after all!

Bueller? Anyone?

which year if it matters and why, 2 or 4 door, 325 or 328? I know I need a manual, what is most competitive?

Hire me....give me the money and I'll get you a turn key winning car. Don't worry what kind it will be, winning depends on the driver.:cool:

[ed325its]

Kinda considering a 92-96 E36 325 for a next race car (have a fully prepped ITA car now). Is this a good choice or is there better? Would it be better to run a 328? or? If I build a new one, it will be an E36 something, but not sure which one, or what class, or what years to get/avoid.... advice?


Stright answer...
E36 325 (92-95) in ITS is handicapped by that POS inlet restrictor. Still competitive but a lot of work to make it a winning car. If considering ITR choose the 328 (96+) as its minimum weight is only marginally more than the 325. If the proposed VIN delete rule becomes reality the you can use any of the E36 chasis and choose the 2.5 or 2.8 liter variants. 2-door or 4-door doesn't matter.

email me off line and I'll share more and not try to sell you my car.

[Knestis]

Item 1. Effective 1/1/09, change section 9.1.3.C by deleting the fifth paragraph as follows:


The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) shall correspond with the automobile classified, and will determine the model and type for competition purposes. A minimum of two (2) VIN plates and/or stampings is required.

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastrack/08/08-fastrack-oct.pdf

K

[Spinnetti]

Stright answer...
E36 325 (92-95) in ITS is handicapped by that POS inlet restrictor. Still competitive but a lot of work to make it a winning car. If considering ITR choose the 328 (96+) as its minimum weight is only marginally more than the 325. If the proposed VIN delete rule becomes reality the you can use any of the E36 chasis and choose the 2.5 or 2.8 liter variants. 2-door or 4-door doesn't matter.

email me off line and I'll share more and not try to sell you my car.

Thank god, a real reply! What's the hot ticket in ITS these days? I like the bimmers and always wanted one, which is why I was thinking that direction. I'm not in any huge hurry, just interested. If the right donor street car comes along, I'll snag it, thanks for the info. I'm not sure SCCA is the end all it used to be for me, so BMW or NASA or some other club might be an option too. I want to build one, because that's what I do... Racing is fun, and I'm pretty good at it, but knowing I built the car that's going fast under me is the fun bit. Besides, my tig welder and machine shop gotta get used for something!

Thanks....

[JeffYoung]

ITS? Only one option. TR8. Well, maybe Jensen-Healey.

Seriously, ITS is a great class right now and the 325 can be competitive. Yes it takes work but so do all front running S cars.

Right now, I'd say, the Miata, the E46 323, the 2nd Gen RX7, the 240/260/280z, the 280zx, the 300zx, the 944s, the Integra GSR and the TR8 all have a shot at winning.

The Miata, RX7 and 240z are probably the most reliable/most easy to build and develop, with the 325 right behind if you can sort the SIR.

[ed325its]

Jeff is right about the competitiveness of ITS cars currently. If I were to build a BMW for ITS I would suggest the E46 323; 2.5l, dual vanos, no SIR, bigger brakes, and only 150lbs. more weight compared to the E36.

[Tom Donnelly]

I have two very nice E36's that are ready to race. Why build...?


No!! Don't buy them! I'm saving my money to try to buy them myself. :)


Seriously, you couldn't build for what's being asked for either car.
And one won the ARRC.

Tom

[Spinnetti]

"Seriously, you couldn't build for what's being asked for either car.
And one won the ARRC."

Yeah, but I'm in it for the engineering as much as the driving. I wouldn't get much thrill in winning in what somebody else built. I did that once, and later totaled the car. When I then built my own replica with my own ideas, it was faster yet, and that was much more satisfying :)

[chuck baader]

I understand you wanting to build as I build my own cars. However, I suggest you look at these cars...probably the most developed e36s in the country. racingjunk add# 1292268, Chet Whittle's cars. Chuck

[gpbmw]

I have both of these cars listed on this site also in addition to racingjunk.com. The spares list is comprehensive.

G. Potts

[chuck baader]

Also note, these cars ran in 2006, at 1:40 and 1:39 BEFORE the track was resurfaced! Chuck

[it7rx739]

Best cars for the money, I don’t think you can build a car chipper and faster than these cars for less, best of everything on these cars.
I work on these cars for years from building it to the developed, long hours and hard work to get the speed out of them.
Whit the good driver no question top runners whit the dissent driver top 3 cars.
Two door or four door don't make a difference.

[Tom Donnelly]

You can lead a horse to water but.....:)

I should talk though, I want to build an E46.
How smart is that?

[Z3_GoCar]

Dang. 29 posts and nobody can answer my question? Are BMW guys always like this? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong car after all!

Bueller? Anyone?

which year if it matters and why, 2 or 4 door, 325 or 328? I know I need a manual, what is most competitive?

I apologise again on going off topic. Get Chuck Stickley to build your motor and I doubt it will matter if you start with a M-50b25 or M-52b28. As I was saying before, the M-50 breaths better through the intake than the M-52 (see below) and has a more retrictive exhaust manifold so will see a larger gain in hp, so hp wise it's a toss up. The 2.8 will have a very slight advantage in torque, I'm not sure that it's worth the whole 100lbs though...

Now, if you're looking for a challenge, you should join us crazy's and build a Z3.....:D

Actually, since all of ITR had the process run on them I doubt there's a cars that's too far off target to really be hobbled. After all we aren't racing dynos are we.


The first two are of the M-52 manifold, note the plastic doesn't allow port matching, and the runners are narrow and skinier. The second two are the M-50, the runners are bigger and straighter, also note the orange gasket is the same size on both.

[Spinnetti]

I apologise again on going off topic. Get Chuck Stickley to build your motor and I doubt it will matter if you start with a M-50b25 or M-52b28. As I was saying before, the M-50 breaths better through the intake than the M-52 (see below) and has a more retrictive exhaust manifold so will see a larger gain in hp, so hp wise it's a toss up. The 2.8 will have a very slight advantage in torque, I'm not sure that it's worth the whole 100lbs though...

Now, if you're looking for a challenge, you should join us crazy's and build a Z3.....:D

Actually, since all of ITR had the process run on them I doubt there's a cars that's too far off target to really be hobbled. After all we aren't racing dynos are we.


The first two are of the M-52 manifold, note the plastic doesn't allow port matching, and the runners are narrow and skinier. The second two are the M-50, the runners are bigger and straighter, also note the orange gasket is the same size on both.

Interesting... Thanks for the info... If it doesn't matter much, then maybe a 92 4dr 325 will be the ticket as can get donors around $2000, and will put all new bearings, bushings, struts, brakes etc and update the motor anyway.... What's chuck get for a motor build? (I assume .040 over, balanced etc.).