1987 civic si fuel injection computer help

[dazzlesa]

does anybody have any suggestions about updating or replacing the computer. i need power!

[Ed Funk]

Serra

[bamfp]

SDS(Simple Digital System) Very simple no laptop needed.

[quadzjr]

Not 100 % sure on teh currrent computer rules but are you allowed to convert OB1->OB2 etc.. and run a hondata setup? We gained quite a bit of hp on our prod car with this setup (mostly top end). I am sure that we will implement a similiar setup on our ITA honda.

[gran racing]

Dude, you have enough power.

What ECU is on your car - OBD0? That's what mine is and I believe Matt said we have the same ECU, but am not sure about that.

[quadzjr]

Dude, you have enough power.

Does anybody ever really have enough power

[gran racing]

When he's your competition - yes. :D

[tom91ita]

i am in the same boat (86 crx si). we are not OBD0. we are have the vacuum advance.

i am assuming that you are also running scca it rules, etc.

i am thinking maybe just do a megasquirt system. i hope to borrow a wide band O2 sensor and do some tests to see how far off i am.

maybe just do the fuel pressure regulator and call it good?

edit: you might look at redpepper as there a few related threads there for megasquirt, etc.

http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37341&hl=ecu%20megasquirt&st=30

http://www.redpepperracing.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40010&hl=ecu+megasquirt

[quadzjr]

Just to throw it out there, ther are other cheap stand alone systems out there. I used a PE (performance Electronics) unit in a formula car that was suprisingly user frinedly. It is a very small unit and extrmely expandable. You could also use other more expensvie systems like motec..

edit -> abou tthe FP regulator. WE say a bit of gains with increasing the FP bu tit seemed to top out. Even with super high pressures we could not get any advantage from incrasing FP, or chaning timing in conjctuion with the increased FP. I think it has somehting to do with the low speed sampling rate of the stock computer. The dyno plot just flat lined. once we installed the and tuned the Programable computer we were were able to gain a few more ponies.

[dazzlesa]

at the dyno we were able to play with the advance, fuel and timing. matt says we have the same computer. it is a little frustrating getting my ass kicked down straights. it sounds like 2k for a computer, wiring and tunning. kind of steep. obd conversions are a nono for IT.

[quadzjr]

why are they a nono? With the current rules allowing a stand alone engine managment system why would an OBD conversion be illegal?

In efforts to save money.. you may look at http://www.pe-ltd.com/. We plan on running either it or a mega squirt on the MR2.. after we get the quirks worked out of it in the first year or so.

just curious.. What header are you running?

[Xian]

I believe that the "new" ecu rules allow for adding sensors, wiring, and plugs. You can swap the distributor guts but not the distributor housing unless they're exactly the same. If you can pull off an OBD swap within these parameters then you should be good to go.

[quadzjr]

I had a similiar problem with the dist when building the FP motor. come to find out a 92 d15 out of a was the dist for me. I would do some research.. redpepper, hondatech, hondaswap, etc.. somebody must have done it. good luck

[Xian]

For the 88-91 cars there are plenty of OBD-1 distributors that will bolt up and with the proper legal wiring changes work just fine. The trick is that the dist swap isn't legal. Gotta sort a way to swap the guts and that, as they say, is the trick.

[tom91ita]

some of the guts do not need to be swapped since the ignitor is part of the ignition system and does not have to be in the distributor.

but the biggest headache/hurdle imho is the vacuum advance vs. the ecu controlling the timing.

[Tom Blaney]

Rick

You can't get blood from a stone. Throwing big bucks worth of ECU parts isn't going to make it breathe better or optimize friction loss. They may help a built motor work better, and that's part of the overall enging program but yyou still have to build the foundation.

We can chat about options if you like. I need to see more Honda's in the winner's circle.

Tom

[quadzjr]

Rick

You can't get blood from a stone. Throwing big bucks worth of ECU parts isn't going to make it breathe better or optimize friction loss. They may help a built motor work better, and that's part of the overall enging program but yyou still have to build the foundation.

We can chat about options if you like. I need to see more Honda's in the winner's circle.

Tom


I agree..

[dazzlesa]

the motor is 040, new this spring and built my matt kessler. i re did the intake. i want to redo the exhaust. i bought the tranny done with a better final drive and lsd . the injectors need to sent out to check that they are working correctly. i want to improve but i do not want to get fanatical on doing and redoing. the computer seems to be the next area that is holding back some power. the car is handling well now. am i missing something? when it comes to friction are we talking lubricants for the engine tranny and bearings? are we doing balancing to the hubs and axles?
rick

[gran racing]

the computer seems to be the next area that is holding back some power.

I've been looking into the whole ECU thing for a while now, and it isn't going to be easy. When all is said and done, I'm not so sure there's really much to be gained here although I keep finding myself coming back to it. Since we're able to manually control some of the areas already, how much do you think could be gained?

Tom, other than a different engine, I'd be curious to hear what ideas you have in mind for the car.

[quadzjr]

just to quickly comment on you lubricant quesiton and sort of being captain obvoius. You can see small hp gain swhen converting to a light weight "dyno oil". Like royal purples 0W 20. but for continous run time. I noticed a very very slight difference in feel when converting all the fluids over to full sythetics. But I dont' believe the price is worth it for something liek IT racing. But I have heard crazier stories for tp level SM builders. So I guess it depends on what you are going for.

[Tom Blaney]

Rick:

As you are well aware by the level of prep that went into my cars, and the cars Anthony preps, there is a lot more to it than a basic rebuild.

Replacing the pistons is good but when he bored the block was a honing plate involved? Blueprinting the motor means more than just getting it to factory spec, there is quite a bit of difference in HP ratings between a "tight" and "loose" fitted motor.

Were all of the valves seated exactly the same, and were all of the valve springs matched, and the shims correct. The rules indicate the maximum compression you can generate is it?

With the CRX there are a couple legal camshafts was yours the proper choice for your motor.

I found after a LOT of DYNO Sessions was that the perverbial "port matching" of the intake made a unmesurable difference since they were very close from the factory

And finally, it sounds like you are not sure that your headers are correct, good headers are expensive and extremly important in both size and style (4-2-1, 4-1, longs, shorts, big tube or small).

As far as magic oils like Royal Purple, Redline etc, I have found since the first release of Mobil 1, it is absolutly the best performing, and most consistant product I have used, and has saved many a toasted motor. Beside you can pick up a carton at WalMart at the same time you pick up an inexpensive Fram filter and a 30 pack of Budweiser...

Hope that helps.

Tom

[gran racing]

Tom,
I completely respect the level of prep your cars have, your driving abilities and appreciate the help you've given me in the past. You should also understand that Matt / Kessler Engineering knows what he's doing. Heck, you mention Anthony and the level he preps cars. Well he thought highly enough of Matt to hire him for his GrandAm efforts. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the work Matt does, his fair prices and honesty. Onto something other than Rick having a weak motor built.

[Tom Blaney]

Hang on Dave, I was not critizing Matt at all, I don't know him but if Anthony respects him than I would also. My question was directed back at Rick, he mentioned 40 over pistons as if that was a big deal, but mentioned that yea he should look at headers.

In fact my reply was more so directed at your comment about what I would reply, since there are a lot of racers who don't know what a honing plate is or why you use it etc..... What I was emphizing is that to optimize a IT motor with it's limited prep rules, you have to maximize every little detail, before looking at trick ECU's and all that. You have to build a solid base, and good engine builders understand that I am sure Matt does and if Rick asked for that than I am sure it is what Matt delivered.

[dazzlesa]

the car has a DC sports header. from owning anthonys car i see how car prep wins. thats why i had bought the car from him. i knew he had crazy hours invested that i knew i would not be able to duplicate. with the civic i am trying to find as much as i can without spending to much time or money. of course the desire to run upfront gets in the way of this logic. i could bring the civic to anthony and i am sure he would make it faster than i could by myself. my budget does not allow me to do that. i appreciate the help that has been givin on this website. it has definaetly helped me find the info or parts that has made the car go faster. hopefully i have helped others in return. the details make the difference. tom is probally right. there are still other areas to work on.
for example set up, shocks, a different final drive and limited slip have netted 1.5 seconds from july to october compared to mine and daves golf. i know there are other factors but dave ran similar times at both events. so in the end i found something.

[Zephyr]

For what it's worth I played around with running an OBD0 distributor on my Civic and CRX in H5 trim. Same motor rules as IT but I could put on a different dizzy and ECU. I put a lot of time into it and it felt strong but this past summer I ran into issues with the ECU at one event, I thought I sorted it out but just to be sure I brought the stock dizzy and ecu with me to the next event incase something happened. Sure enough it did on Saturday morning at Hyperfest. I swapped in the stock dizzy and ECU and ended up running the exact same times as I was running the session before.

Unless you throw a lot of money at this issue I don't think there is much to be gained by running a newer setup on this motor or for that matter Dave's motor. You might be able to gain a little here and a little there but it is not enough to be really noticeable to the point where you'll say, "Damn, that two grand is really making this car move".

One thing that I do know for sure makes a difference is the header. My CRX is running a 4-1 header with a 2.5" outlet. Before that I ran it with the same header but a 2.25" tail section and before that a 4-2-1 with a 2.25" outlet. I would start messing around with your exhaust before your ECU.

Z

[iambhooper]

Rick:

With the CRX there are a couple legal camshafts was yours the proper choice for your motor.

Tom

Tom,

For those of us that are dangerous enough to do, but not smart enough to do so, could you please elaborate on the different camshaft comment? I'm not doubting, just curious, as I will likely be upgrading my ITC ride to ITB for 2009, and I want to gather as much info as possible.

Thanks!
hoop

[dazzlesa]

it seems these cars were offered with different cams depending on year, location, auto matic or stick shift . you have to figure out which works better. we had 2 motors. one had a r2 and the other had r3. we used the r3 which measured bigger. i am not sure if there are better ones out there.

[bamfp]

I have had all 4 cams on a cam doctor. Not a big difference between them.

[iambhooper]

it seems these cars were offered with different cams depending on year, location, auto matic or stick shift . you have to figure out which works better. we had 2 motors. one had a r2 and the other had r3. we used the r3 which measured bigger. i am not sure if there are better ones out there.


my understanding of cams is very basic... lift and duration. as for different cams, do the ones from the carbed car interchange with the fuel injected? and then you have automatic vs 5spd, cal carbed vs not vs canadian, correct?

do cams wear down? if so, what can be done... replace them?

again, just trying to figure out whats going on and what people are considering acceptable. if i sent a head off to Sunbelt to get worked, would they generally do something about the head?

thanks!
hoop