No more aluminum drums for 240/260/280z cars [Archive]

pballance

09-29-2008, 03:32 PM

FWIW, I found out before the Barber race. I located some good used ones, latched on to them so I think I am OK for a while. I tried to order from 4 of the usual suppliers but all were out of stock even though they said they were in stock.

There is a guy on ebay with 7 drums I think. He is asking $349/pair for them. Too rich for me.

Looks like the ZX might get built sooner rather than later.............

Now, how about a class philosphy question.

IF the drums, even steel ones are NLA, that will effectively end the Z in ITS. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the ITAC would approve an upgrade to discs for the drum equipped Z's.

Just thinking out loud........ Could a weight penalty offset an upgrade from Z drums to ZX rear disc brakes? Of course there is the follow on questions regarding larger M/C, etc., etc, etc..........

JeffYoung

09-29-2008, 03:37 PM

Paul, this won't be allowed. It's actually happened before, to a fairly popular car. RX2s/3s used to be pretty popular in ITA but have disappeared. A guy on here who raced one explained a lot of that was due to rear brake drums/wheel cylinders/etc. no longer being available.

I don't think the ITAC/CRB would allow a disc upgrade for the Z cars, but complicating the equation is the sheer number, still, of these cars racing in ITS. Sometimes they make up 1/3 of teh field. I bet 240z/260z/early 280z are the second most popular ITS car, still, after the second Gen RX7......

Ron Earp

09-29-2008, 06:23 PM

Yeah, there won't be any converting to drums. I'd be up for converting to discs at a slightly higher weight, but if you bring it up you'll be told to run production if you want to "get heavy into modifying your race car". We really need a shift in class terms - IT as it current is needs to be called "Production" since it is far closer to "Production cars". Production, or Prod, as it is now needs to be called "Improved Touring" or something that lets people know the machines are not anywhere near production cars.

In any event, I'm sure steel ones will be available and they are not a deal breaker. I weighed the steel vs ally ones and I think the difference was about five pounds if I recall correctly.

R

Xian

09-29-2008, 07:02 PM

FWIW, it looks like you can find a metric ton of them used via www.car-part.com (http://www.car-part.com). I know buying used drums isn't ideal but it's certainly an option once it becomes the "only" option...

Christian

Ron Earp

09-29-2008, 07:48 PM

That had crossed my mind too, especially after using the web at Roebling to find a used TR7/TR8 transmission after Jeff's blew up last week....

Gonna be used ones for me. I ain't paying $175 each for a drum! Probably just as well. I had to get the new drum turned down 0.050" to fit over the Carbotech shoes. I doubt a used drum is worn that much.

Knestis

09-29-2008, 08:12 PM

>> IF the drums, even steel ones are NLA, that will effectively end the Z in ITS. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the ITAC would approve an upgrade to discs for the drum equipped Z's. ...Just thinking out loud........ Could a weight penalty offset an upgrade from Z drums to ZX rear disc brakes? Of course there is the follow on questions regarding larger M/C, etc., etc, etc.....

No - you aren't wrong. It's WAY too slippery a slope to start doing that kind of thing.

And it would be nice if y'all wouldn't presume that the ITAC is as dismissive as "go run Production" sounds. It's not an easy thing to accommodate what we think - and we hear from the membership - the category needs in the long term to be healthy, particularly when we have to upset individual members by not giving what is clearly best for them personally.

K

pballance

09-29-2008, 08:34 PM

>> .....

No - you aren't wrong. It's WAY too slippery a slope to start doing that kind of thing.

And it would be nice if y'all wouldn't presume that the ITAC is as dismissive as "go run Production" sounds. It's not an easy thing to accommodate what we think - and we hear from the membership - the category needs in the long term to be healthy, particularly when we have to upset individual members by not giving what is clearly best for them personally.

K

No intent on my part to be dissmissive at all. I was wondering out loud if a weight penalty might allow a change. I agree, it is a slippery slope as I indicated and I also indicated it was beyond the philosophy of the class.

I would prefer the class remain healthy even if my currently chosen car effectively "ages out."

Kirk, I don't envy the job that the ITAC performs. Someone has to do it, it is appreciated (even though you may not hear it very often), and necessary for the health of the club. You won't hear any complaints from me even if told to go run production.:)
I don't have to agree with everything ITAC does but I have to respect the honest efforts to make informed, equitable decisions, for the good of the club.

For that I say thanks to all of you, not just Kirk! :happy204:

JeffYoung

09-29-2008, 08:51 PM

Ditto on Paul's post.

Plus, I wouldn't support a change due to NLA -- for my car or any other. At some point, cars have to age out of IT. When you can get parts, well, go race vintage, or something else.

This will happen to the TR8 eventually, and I accept that.

Ron Earp

09-29-2008, 09:58 PM

And it would be nice if y'all wouldn't presume that the ITAC is as dismissive as "go run Production" sounds. It's not an easy thing to accommodate what we think - and we hear from the membership - the category needs in the long term to be healthy, particularly when we have to upset individual members by not giving what is clearly best for them personally.

K

Sorry of that came off in an abrasive manner. Let me re-phrase that in a friendlier way: I, and I think most of the IT folks we race with as well as the ITAC, would say "go run production". And I'd agree, It just isn't how things work in IT.

It is way too slippery of a slope. Sure, I'd love to run my Z with rear discs conversions but that isn't a good thing for IT as a whole.

Now that other stuff about renaming the Prod/IT stuff, I'm dead serious.

andrew240z

09-29-2008, 10:04 PM

Hey guys I dont post here often but I do lurk quite a bit. I have a 240z that I was considering for ITS but it does seem a little silly to build a car that doesnt really have a chance to win. I already have a front running ita car so I dont pay as much attention to the Z as I should. I have to build a motor for it now but other than that it is ready to race. I dont have the funds to go production and I cant decide which direction to go in. The best viable option is run in nasa pt class where I can make changes and just take a points hit and keep going. I have been thinking about the car tonight as I moved around some spare parts and then noticed this thread. I really miss driving it, I ran the Pocono double in it last year and had a blast. Hopefully I will get it out again soon.

JeffYoung

09-29-2008, 10:12 PM

Andrew, good to see you posting.

One thing -- 240zs have more than a chance of winning, I consider a top prep one to be one of THE cars to have. Just ask John Williams, or David Spillman. They have run up front at the ARRC, very recently.

dspillrat

09-29-2008, 11:06 PM

Just jabbing at ya Andrew..... Zs still can run at times...... We'll Z ya at VIR........

I want to see eckrich in a dang miotter..... Fast little critters.

VIR role call??

JeffYoung

09-29-2008, 11:14 PM

In! Got the pole last time up there, at just over 2:19.....sounds like the competition is coming this time though...lol.....Steve E. says he has a new RX7 ready for us.

dspillrat

09-29-2008, 11:22 PM

Good to hear Jeff !!!

Swapping a "full" cam for this weekend...watchout... spray bar plugged up and finally took out #4 exhaust lobe..explains my loss of power since first race at Savannah.... way back in May? Wish our diagnostic skills on track were more accurate. Can't wait toget back on track.!!!!!!!

david

dspillrat

09-29-2008, 11:24 PM

Thought I read somewhere Steve E. was readying a Miata??

What ya driving Steve?

Ron Earp

09-30-2008, 07:04 AM

Just jabbing at ya Andrew..... Zs still can run at times...... We'll Z ya at VIR........

I want to see eckrich in a dang miotter..... Fast little critters.

VIR role call??

In at VIR.

Shhhhh on the 240Z. Let'em think you can't be competitive, more Z shells and parts for the rest of us!

Yeah, you need to count those lobes: one, two, three, four....all the way up to twenty four. If you got twenty four good lobes on your OS Giken 240Z cylinder head then you're doing fine.

Be good to see you up at VIR David!

I've heard a number of rumors of fast ITS drivers readying Miatas.......

JeffYoung

09-30-2008, 08:05 AM

I believe the rumor is Kent and Ralph are building one, unconfirmed though.

Bowie Gray is as well, but his will not be ready until next March.

Steve E. I'm pretty sure was a new RX7 but he's always full of surprises......

seckerich

09-30-2008, 08:35 AM

Thought I read somewhere Steve E. was readying a Miata??

What ya driving Steve?

Good to see you post big guy!! I picked up an ITS RX7 that is in need of some serious TLC. Doing the driveline first before VIR and plan to run the 13 hour. After that we will give it the full treatment over the winter. I just missed running with you guys. Don't know how fast we will be. The Miotter is an SM and should be done for next year.

RX3

09-30-2008, 08:59 AM

If you get the CRB to let you use something other that what came on the car. Let me know, becouse I have not been able to get rear drums or front rotors for mine RX3 for the last 4 years. I may have I shot at getting something also.

andrew240z

09-30-2008, 10:56 AM

I know a 240 can still run up front but I just dont have the resources to put together a full build on one. My car needs a ton to run up front and I am not sure its worth the effort since i have 2 other IT cars. Its probably going to land somewhere between a IT car and prod car. It would probably make more sense to sell it but I just couldnt....

Tom Donnelly

09-30-2008, 05:14 PM

If there is no replacement part for the 240z drum, is a viable alternative a drum that fits from another manufacturer? One that has approximately the same dimensions and is not a performance enhancement?

I have quite a bit invested in my 240 over the years, and I have several sets of the aluminum rear drums. But they won't last forever. And 5 pounds of unsprung weight is a difference. And if the steel ones go away too, I'd like to be able to stay in IT, not go play in vintage (expensive) or in EP (expensive).

I could be wrong, but I remember hearing that the older Toyota finned drums, like on a 4wd are close. That may not be true, I'm just using that as an example.

What are the options one should address to the CRB?

Tom

JeffYoung

09-30-2008, 05:18 PM

It'd technically be illegal. I'd never protest you though.

Knestis

09-30-2008, 09:41 PM

Frankly, the best bet would be for some enterprising individual to send one of the few remaining new examples to a manufacturer offshore, and find out what it would cost to cast 1000 of them. You might be surprised...

K

Knestis

09-30-2008, 09:44 PM

...What are the options one should address to the CRB?

Tom

You can ask for anything you want but I'll warn you so you won't be too disappointed: The ITAC is "disinclined" to recommend specific make/model allowances of this type. Your best bet is to find a new source for parts that are true equivalents (dimensions, material, etc.).

K

betamotorsports

10-01-2008, 11:51 AM

Another option, resurface old drums via hardfacing or replacing the inner.

x-ring

10-01-2008, 01:41 PM

Another option, resurface old drums via hardfacing or replacing the inner.

I'd wondered the same thing, what about flame spray or some other method to build up the existing inner liner? Build it up until it is too small, then turn to proper diameter.

I don't think I'd be up for replacing the liner. I can just imagine the liner spinning in the drum when it got hot. :eek:

Tom Donnelly

10-01-2008, 03:38 PM

Wasn't there some special consideration for the Olds Acheiva at one point? Different hubs or something? Or some kind of cam for the VW's? How does one get things like that through?

And what offshore manufactures would you suggest? I would have no idea where to look. I have an untouched set of aluminum drums still in the box that could be used as a template or something. Where do you get started and would anyone else want in on this?

Maybe I could get my E88 and E31 heads replicated too?

Knestis

10-01-2008, 06:39 PM

Under current protocols, I *think* that the ITAC is very unlikely to recommend anything like those examples. In fact, we've talked about taking those "line item" exceptions out of the books for the very reason that they might be perceived as setting precedents that we aren't able to follow at this point but it's challenging to take back something that's made it into the rules.

(Remember that any opinions expressed on stuff like this are mine alone. The only official ITAC position is that represented by recommendations to the BoD.)

In terms of solutions to the manufacturing question, I'd start with a local machine shop. Or look in your nearest actual city for someone that does "metal casting," and work from there. If you're talking about non-ferrous parts (AL alloy drums rather than cast FE), there are some new technologies emerging that speed the design-to-production cycle.

http://www.zcorp.com/Solutions/Castings--Patterns--Molds/spage.aspx

This might be a good project for a consortium of Z-car enthusiasts to pursue. Certainly, the street car market can't be too far behind you guys, in terms of needing parts. It's possible to build a 1969 Camaro out of new parts nowadays, so if the volume is there to support it, there are probably answers.

Remember that, as harsh as it sounds, the Club has no obligation to make it cheap to race whatever each of us might choose to drive. Your solution might be spendy but it's out there.

K

Tom Donnelly

10-02-2008, 11:22 AM

Thanks for the leads. I appreciate the disclaimer too. Otherwise I'd blame you Kirk!
(Just kidding).

The street market would probably lean towards disc replacement rather that aluminum drums, more bang for your buck I'd think.

I think I'll swap to the discs in the rear and put a cardboard replica of an aluminum drum over the rotors to hide the swap. Yeah, that's the ticket.

mom'sZ

10-02-2008, 12:19 PM

Kirk, like tom said, the zcar market is full of rear disc upgrade options. Oddly most zcar street guys feel compelled to replace there drums almost immediatly. I think they are percieved as being really weak. I think there is even a really cheap (junk yard parts) easy (bolts right up) upgrade from a 240sx or something. Plus it is really popular to put V8s in them and then they really do need so more whoo power.
Tom, I would be interested in buying a bunch or participating in trying to have a batch cast.

pballance

10-02-2008, 04:15 PM

FWIW, my sources have indicated that Brembo is actively seeking a new vendor to build the drums. At least one firm is actively pursuing offshore production of Z drums in aluminum but it may be a few months before production can begin. They are talking multi-thousand needed to reach the break even point.

If anyone is completely out, I found a vendor with New Old Stock and bought 2 drums. IF they are in fact Brembo when they arrive and are aluminum as promised, I will post up the vendor link here. BTW, I did not pay the $170+ that we are seeing on Ebay.

Tom Donnelly

10-02-2008, 04:43 PM

I'll post what kind of prices I get when I find out. I ordered some drums from a vendor as well that said they are aluminum brembos but I have my doubts. Paul, I hope you found something!

In the meantime, i'm offering cardboard replicas for just 19.95! Slips right over your disc conversion, slices, dices and makes julian fries for only $19.95. And I'll throw in a bass-omatic.

x-ring

10-03-2008, 08:46 AM

PArts America still has Beck Arnley aluminum drums listed online at ~$125. I don't know if they actually have them or not, but past experience says that if they have them listed they probably do.

Are the Brembo drums any better? I've always bought mine from NAPA; we get a pretty good discount there (up to 60%!) through work. The drums come in a plain white box so I don't know who makes 'em.

pballance

10-03-2008, 09:03 AM

Beck Arnley = Brembo in this case. I tried to order from PA and "not in stock" even though they were listed online. :shrug:
I also tried from the Advance Auto Parts (PA "storefront") and they list them as NLA.

It is my hunch that the vendor making them under license from Brembo, also made the same drum for "no-name" brands. At least that is what I assumed.

pballance

10-08-2008, 06:39 PM

OK, my drums made it in and they are Brembo, NIB, aluminum drums. I am set for a while now. :happy204:

I said I would post the vendor and here they are Motorsport Auto, aka MSA:
http://www.thezstore.com/store/merchant.mvc?

Get them while you can :) I have 2 new, 2 lightly used, and several well used drums on hand now.

IIRC, the price was $90.?? ea so about $180 for a pair. Much cheaper than $349 on the auction site.