Neat and clean appearance?

[mc-integra111]

Well, I finally did my first SCCA event at Road America the weekend of Sept 13th. Overall I had fun, but had one bad experience. I want to post hear to get some opinions from fellow IT racers.

I had to get my car teched, which went great. Three gentlemen were looking it over and didn't give any indication that anything was even close to causing a problem. At the very end, one gentleman decided that they needed to write up my driver’s side body damage. I asked them what that meant, and that's when they informed me that it means I would have to fix the damage before I could race another SCCA event. I told them that the damage that is left is the result of fixing the much worse body damage that occurred from hitting a guardrail earlier in the year. I fixed the damage to my liking and have no intention of fixing it further. I believe that I maintain a stock looking body line (to be legal per body repair rules) while presenting a car suitable for competition (it ain't perfect, but it hit a wall). I appealed to the Chief Steward after the event and even to another regional SCCA official later in the week to remove the notation so that I can race SCCA again. Currently, I am still waiting for a response. I would like to hear opinions from fellow IT racers as to whether they think the damage is bad enough to be written up or that SCCA is being picky and this car should be allowed to race. Here are pictures of the car before and after my fix (after the fix is actually as raced at RA). Thanks.

[Greg Amy]

Unfortunately, Jared, that is a VERY subjective call. "Neat and clean" is as about nebulous a rule as you can get, and it's up to the tech inspector's discretion. Unfortunately, all tech inspectors are different.

Hell, if you want to see an extreme example, check out Joe DiMinno's car from 2006-2007; that thing was such a pig even *HE* replaced the whole car over last winter (then proceeded to wreck it again...sigh...)

You're doing the right thing by using the protest/appeals process. From this point forward you'll just need to see if someone higher-up can over ride the local guy. Otherwise you're probably screwed... - GA

[ddewhurst]

***I fixed the damage to my liking and have no intention of fixing it further.***

Jared, if we use this ^ as a base line for repairing cars I can only imagine what a race group of cars will look like. :rolleyes:

***I believe that I maintain a stock looking body line (to be legal per body repair rules) while presenting a car suitable for competition (it ain't perfect, but it hit a wall).***

Rule 9.1.3.D.8.h. Body repair workshall be preformed using every reasonable effort to maintain stock body contours, lips, ect.

Reading between the lines I understand where the tech inspector is coming from.

If I am not mistaken one of your coharts from Council who races a Spec Miata has been given the same notation with reference to his body work.

From my observations of you on track, you get-er done. It would be a shame if you decide to not fix your body work because that might leave you out of racing SCCA where there is some competition for you. :)

[Drew Aldred]

Hell, unless they took pictures that are now stapled in your logbook, take it to the next event and say "Look, I fixed it".:cool:

[x-ring]

Well, from a tech point of view, I would probably do a write up in your book too, but I probably wouldn't insist that it was 'fix by next event'. I'd probably write it us as 'fix within 30 days'.

It also doesn't necessarily have to go to a body shop. I can't really asess the damage from here, but it looks like you could probably make it good enough in your garage. How do your neighbors feel about painting a car fender or two in your driveway? Mine neighbors have never said a thing....

[joeg]

Fix the car.

[Xian]

I'm familiar with the rule in question and, although the tech inspector can enforce it as he did, it seems a bit overzealous. It appears to me that you made reasonable grassroots, budget type repairs to the car. I'd continue pursuing the appeals process and see if you can get it overturned. If not, I'd give some additional garage repair a try :)

[benspeed]

I'd fix it - we don't run the junker classes that the circle track guys do. Besides, you'll need to get familiar with bodywork. Those repairs could be done in a Saturday afternoon. Take you paint code to a good paintshop and order some rattle cans with your color, piece of cake.

All you need to do is
1. Drill holes into the dents
2. Use a slide hammer to pull them out ($20 at any auto parts store)
3. Slather bondo
4. Use a wheel sander to smooth it out - usually need 3-4 bondo slatherings and sandings
5. Paint
6. It looks good from the 50/50 perspective. 50 feet away or 50 mph it'll look grrrrreat.

[924Guy]

Yeah, that'd be what I'd classify as a stellar job for at-the-track work... but with a month or more off between races... yeah, you should be able to do better than that. I don't see any signs of bondo being used... so seems to me like you're leaving something on the table. Not to say you have to use bondo, but you can get it closer than that without using a bodyshop.

[spnkzss]

I think that is something you could get away with for a whole racing year if ti happened AFTER you annual, but that would be something I would fix over the winter. :shrug:

[tom_sprecher]

When Butch was having the annual done on his car earlier this year, as Rodger Sund would come to each line on the check list he would read it out loud. "Neat and clean?" Rodger said, with a disappointing look over his glasses at Butch. It was obvious that, while there was no damage to the car, there was no shine either.

I broke the silence with "At least he has the 'and' part".

[chewy8000]

I went through the same deal this season and I was told it needed to be fixed over the winter.

[1stGenBoy]

I passed your tow rig on the way home from the track and I even commented to my son that it looked like he had a rough weekend at the track. Based on what I saw when we passed you I, would say the tech inspector was correct in writing it up.

Bob Clark
#76 Cen-Div GTL
#76 Cen-Div ITB

[77ITA]

I think it looks fine... probably on the nicer end of most of the IT cars in the Midwest circuit. I raced all of '07 in an ITA car that looked the same or worse.

We're not all made of money and often times it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again. I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine. I'd personally like the opportunity to tell your tech inspector where he can shove his GCR. :p

[quadzjr]

Take you paint code to a good paintshop and order some rattle cans with your color, piece of cake.



You can order rattle cans of your paint code?

[77ITA]

You can order rattle cans of your paint code?

Yeah. :D

Most good automotive paint stores can whip up a spray can of any color you want as long as you've got a paint code.

In my neck of the woods, I've used Florissant Auto Paint (314) 837-1255

Give them a call if you can't find anyone in your area.

[quadzjr]

thanks.. I will give it a try.. Hopefully I won't need it for a while.

[trhoppe]

While that looks a bit beat up, its not TOO bad.

If you really don't want to spend a bunch of time fixing it. Throw some bondo on there, rattle can it, and throw some stickers over it.

-Tom

[wcmcarlos]

I completely agree with Ben and Tom.
I ordered o/e paint color in rattle cans online, got good service, also clear coat from same source.
At Sebring last year, I saw a SM come to the paddock after Sunday race, was hit from passenger side front wheel, to rear wheel, he drove it into the paddock, the bondo from earlier repair was 4 inches thick, right through the entire side.
Weight penalty for sure, but he was still racing.
cm

[planet6racing]

I think it looks fine... probably on the nicer end of most of the IT cars in the Midwest circuit. I raced all of '07 in an ITA car that looked the same or worse.

We're not all made of money and often times it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again. I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine. I'd personally like the opportunity to tell your tech inspector where he can shove his GCR. :p

And I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy to have your help in Tech. The line on Friday was 50 cars deep and took 3 hours for some to get through. Others were sent away and told to come back on Saturday.

[pfcs]

"I think it looks fine... probably on the nicer end of most of the IT cars in the Midwest circuit. I raced all of '07 in an ITA car that looked the same or worse.

We're not all made of money and often times it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again. I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine. I'd personally like the opportunity to tell your tech inspector where he can shove his GCR. :p"

I agree strongly and had the same experience at the same track. When I ended up in impound in 4th after the 94 ARRC the tech guys gave me the third degree about the neat and clean rule, telling me that if I returned in the same condition, I wouldn't be allowed to race. The car was raced all over the NE without any mention of neat/clean until then as well as later (95) phil

[dickita15]

I can also assure you that the rule is written to keep a professional image for our sport, not to ensure that we all have show cars. As long as your car doesn't look like a demo-derby car from 50 feet away, you should be fine.

I really don’t believe that is the whole reason. There is a school of thought that drivers who have body damage already are likely to try less to avoid future contact. I know in one SCCA division the stewards were trying to crack down on SM metal to metals and one tool they used was to write up all damage after every race. I am told it worked.

[JLawton]

two years ago ITA was impounded after a race and everyone written up who had body damage. I believe that it needed to be done by the next annual.

[Knestis]

It's also harder to determine if - or how - body damage might have occurred, if a car comes to an event pre-dented.

I'm not running the ARRC because I spent that part of the budget fixing major whangs from the Summit 12 and IT Festival of Fail. I personally think that it's a good rule and should be enforced more than it seems to be.

>> ...it doesn't make sense to do a bunch of body work on a $3k car between races when we know it's going to happen again.

I gotta say that this perspective is worrisome to me. We should NEVER collectively get to the point where it's a foregone conclusion that we're going to run into each other. The most likely outcome of that is that we WILL run into each other more often...

K

[ddewhurst]

For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you. ;) Please write your specification so that we the others may understand your base line. :) We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

[pfcs]

"Cars that Phil finds aesthetically unacceptable must be subject to this rule"

[ddewhurst]

"Cars that Phil finds aesthetically unacceptable must be subject to this rule"

..............^ that would be the issue. It's kind of :shrug:

[raffaelli]

"Any car in worse condition than mine":smilie_pokal:

[John Nesbitt]

For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you. ;) Please write your specification so that we the others may understand your base line. :) We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

The GCR is fairly straightforward (emphasis added):

9.3.6. APPEARANCE NEAT/CLEAN & SUITABLE FOR COMPETITION

Appearance neat and clean, and suitable for competition. Specifically, cars that are dirty either externally or in the engine or passenger compartments, or that show bodywork damage, structural or surface rust, or that are partially or totally in primer, or that do not bear the prescribed identification marks shall not be approved for competition.

[erlrich]

I don't see any good reason why drivers should be showing up at races with cars that are not neat and clean, and free of body damage and presentable to our audiences. Between the prize money and the sponsor funding there is really no excuse...

[Greg Amy]

...free of body damage and presentable to our audiences. Between the prize money and the sponsor funding there is really no excuse...

!

[MMiskoe]

A quote from a friend of mine that I have always loved - "If you're serious about going racing for the seaon, at the end of March you go out and buy a gallon of bondo."

Its all relative. The only way I've ever had a tech guy back down from this is when you point out all the cars in the paddock that look worse than yours and ask why they don't have notes in their books.

The other thing to do is to try and get them to quantify it. Ask exactly which panels they feel need to be fixed. Usually they will back down a bit and point out the major parts and only write those up.

Like Ben said, bondo, spray can & some stickers. Also try to get the tech guy to look at it in the pouring rain.

[gran racing]

I’d race a car in that condition.


Throw some bondo on there, rattle can it, and throw some stickers over it.

I gave that route a shot and was called Bondo Boy for quite some time. LOL


For those tha view the Teg as looking ok please provide your base line for when a car is beyon what is accecptable to you.
We ALL need the same written rule to follow.

All subjective. Why don’t you write a rule how large a ding can be, how deep, how much paint can be scuffed, limit to which wheels can be dirty, how much dirt can be in the interior (maybe by weight?), and so on?

I guess now I better hope it rains cause my car isn’t lookn’ so pretty right now. Basically it comes down to two choices – I can sit out the last race of the year for me, or put that money aside to get the body damage repaired. I’m going off to the races.

[ddewhurst]

***All subjective. Why don’t you write a rule how large a ding can be, how deep, how much paint can be scuffed, limit to which wheels can be dirty, how much dirt can be in the interior (maybe by weight?), and so on?***

Someone was bound to use the proverbial word, "subjective". For those people there is a rule that had previously been posted. Please read the rule a second or third time & see if it covers your written questions above. My bet would be that the same people who believe pounding damage to some sort of approx shape with no finish work would change there habits if they took said car & stepped to the National level. or some of their newly aquired National peers would take them aside for a little brotherly love about what a car is expected to look like at the National level. :o I have never viewed cars with old damage like the Teg at the SCCA Regional level say nothing about the SCCA Natioanl level. I do see cars like the Teg at events sanctioned by orgs other than the SCCA.

The previously posted rule is:

****Rule 9.1.3.D.8.h. Body repair workshall be preformed using every reasonable effort to maintain stock body contours, lips, ect.***

IMHJ, stock body contours from the above rule would be as the car is finished by the manufacture. Now because some of you have nothing better to do than rag on the computer ask me how shinny the car needs to be. There is car finishing paint that has no gloss which looks like primer. :023:

[steve b]

The GCR is fairly straightforward (emphasis added):

9.3.6. APPEARANCE NEAT/CLEAN & SUITABLE FOR COMPETITION

Appearance neat and clean, and suitable for competition. Specifically, cars that are dirty either externally or in the engine or passenger compartments, or that show bodywork damage, structural or surface rust, or that are partially or totally in primer, or that do not bear the prescribed identification marks shall not be approved for competition.

I might as well hang it up if my engine compartment needs to be neat and clean:blink:

[mc-integra111]

I was kinda waiting to hear back from SCCA officially before posting again, but I'll weigh in on some points. I'll be sure to keep this up to date when I officially hear from SCCA.

I am trying to use appeals and do this correctly. If this is SCCA's decision, I will abide by it as they are the organization and can set their own rules. To be fair, Tech did suggest the bondo solution (I don't like bondo as a fix) as an alternative. The executive also was willing to waive the notation for the rest of the year if I wanted to race with SCCA before year's end.

I don't like doing bodywork, so I would take this to someone else to fix. Plus, even with the proper paint code, I have a lot of trouble matching my 18 year old faded metallic paint. I have the money to fix this, so its not even a question of if I can or not, but I would rather give the money to SCCA for entry than a body shop.

I don't like the assumption that if the car is already damaged, then it would be more likely to be involved in further incidents. I think is is making an assumption about the driver that may not be fair since their is no proof of this. In defense of this, I clearly showed them the notation in the Council logbook that said it was a mechanical problem. Personally, I take exactly as much care of the car now (on and off track) as I did before the incident. Although I can see where SCCA is coming from, since they would now have to make another assumption about me that has no proof.

There is plenty of competition in Council races (at least in ITA). I would highly encourage any ITA driver in the Midwest to come out for an event. I am sure that the Council ITA driver's would like to race with new people.

And if anyone is curious, my council cohort has since had that notation removed from his logbook by an executive. I was actually standing right next to him when it happened and made a comment to the extent of "if they don't like that damage, what are they going to say about my car". I kinda assumed it was a national level thing, and the regional event wouldn't mind.

[jumbojimbo]

:happy204:Wow Dave, that's the kind of inclusive attitude that really draws people in to our club. That's so over the top it's hard to tell if it's sarcasm. Yeah, I'm really going to be intimidated by some ahole at a national event because my bondo is cracked or my door edges don't line up. The nationals I've been to would be thrilled to have the entry fee. Another $500 less loss for the region? Sweet.

I'd say Teg already made a mistake by escalating this. The last thing you want to do is point at yourself. I'd have kept my mouth shut and found a less visible way to take care of it.

Shoot, take it to an event with a different tech inspector, perhaps one known to be friendly, and have him/her sign your current work as the "fix". Or at least soften it a bit by suggesting a permanent fix by next year.

At this point who is to say what exactly the original inspector was concerned with? If someone is going to jerk you around but not document what is required, then I'd say you have the right to use that lack of diligence.

It'd be worth a try anyway. Worst case you give a friendly laugh and promise to really fix it by next time or negotiate a winter fix. Show me a region that will send you home and I'll show you a region you don't want to spend your money with anyway.

Granted, I may not be fair characterizing the original tech inspector as jerking you around. He's just doing his job and as long as he's doing it in good faith, that's all we can ask.

Maybe I live in a different world, but so far my experience is that all of the officials at the events I've attended have been thrilled to see me and happy to help in any way possible. Sure, they could have been jerks when my transponder was weak, but they weren't. They were reasonable and helpful. I got to race, WOR got my cash and everybody is happy.

I plan on fixing my bodywork over the winter. If someone wants to complain about it before then, it's up to them if they don't need my entry fee. But I don't see that happening when regions are already losing money left and right on races.

I'm still waiting to hear from the Pintos.

jim

[ddewhurst]

***:happy204:Wow Dave, that's the kind of inclusive attitude that really draws people in to our club. That's so over the top it's hard to tell if it's sarcasm.***

Jim, the post was aimed at the guy who used the word subjective................. There is clearly a rule for people to abide to when it's time to repair body damage. As I look at the situation the teck folks requested some action sooner over later.

***I plan on fixing my bodywork over the winter. If someone wants to complain about it before then, it's up to them if they don't need my entry fee. But I don't see that happening when regions are already losing money left and right on races.***

Jim, what single word would you use to explain this ^ attitude?

You missed the post where I complimented Jared on his capabilities.:eclipsee_steering:

[R2 Racing]

Shoot, take it to an event with a different tech inspector, perhaps one known to be friendly, and have him/her sign your current work as the "fix". Or at least soften it a bit by suggesting a permanent fix by next year.
Jared, as my Dad (apparently) told you at Road America, come out to Mid Ohio October 11th & 12th and I'll get it taken care of. At the very least, we could get it changed to "must be fixed by next season". I believe Jan Rief is finally bringing out his DA Integra too. Three DA's at Mid Ohio; that would be a record!

[lateapex911]

To be fair, Tech did suggest the bondo solution (I don't like bondo as a fix) as an alternative. The executive also was willing to waive the notation for the rest of the year if I wanted to race with SCCA before year's end.

I don't like doing bodywork, so I would take this to someone else to fix. Plus, even with the proper paint code, I have a lot of trouble matching my 18 year old faded metallic paint. I have the money to fix this, so its not even a question of if I can or not, but I would rather give the money to SCCA for entry than a body shop.



See, this is a bit different than your original post.

As for body work, I don't LIKE doing a lot of things to my car...rear bearings, trans work, etc, but you have to do those things to race..it's all part of the game.

Bondo? Hey, if you don't like it, oh well, your call. But matching paint??? Now you have me. On one hand you really don't care about the car being all wonky with rust coming through, but on the other you are saying it's too difficult to match the paint to your satisfaction?

Ummm....

Just take the option to fix it over the winter, and move on. Ask your local paint guy for some advise and take a bodywork plunge, and the pride in your work will show on the car and in your driving. Or have a local shop do it during slow times, perhaps for partial trade for on car advertisement.

Remember, you're the head mechanic, driver, accountant, tow rig operator, bodywork guy, chassis engineer and bottlewasher of your race "team". And sometimes cleaning bottles sucks. Oh well, it's part of the game.

[924Guy]

Direct reply back to Jared... bondo isn't the only way to repair your car; it's just the easiest/cheapest. If you don't like using it, then perhaps you should replace the panels in question. It's your choice; do you want to patch up or replace the panels that are damaged? There's no provision in the rulebook for not adequately repairing damage.

As for paint... you seem again to be taking very much a black-or-white, all or nothing view of the matter. Do you really mean to tell me that the paint all has to match perfectly? Close is good. Or even a better idea, change your paint scheme on the fly. Most racecars have multi-color paint. And metallic paint is a really poor choice for a racecar, for exactly this reason - too hard to touch up.

Does my car look ugly??

http://vaughanscott.com/Races/2007/IT_Fest_07/tiretemps.jpg

As you can see, not perfect. But looks fine, and never had tech complain about appearance. That's a $300 MAACO paint job, customized with Krylon and Rustoleum. Easy to touch up between races as needed. And I race mostly at Waterford, where a little incidental contact should be expected, like it or not. I'm not fond of doing bodywork either, so I make it as easy on myself as possible.

(and, FWIW, I have since replaced that LF fender with a fresh one, since it was not really salvageable long-term - that was the best I could do without too much bondoing at the time).

[spnkzss]

See, this is a bit different than your original post.

As for body work, I don't LIKE doing a lot of things to my car...rear bearings, trans work, etc, but you have to do those things to race..it's all part of the game.

Bondo? Hey, if you don't like it, oh well, your call. But matching paint??? Now you have me. On one hand you really don't care about the car being all wonky with rust coming through, but on the other you are saying it's too difficult to match the paint to your satisfaction?

Ummm....

Just take the option to fix it over the winter, and move on. Ask your local paint guy for some advise and take a bodywork plunge, and the pride in your work will show on the car and in your driving. Or have a local shop do it during slow times, perhaps for partial trade for on car advertisement.

Remember, you're the head mechanic, driver, accountant, tow rig operator, bodywork guy, chassis engineer and bottlewasher of your race "team". And sometimes cleaning bottles sucks. Oh well, it's part of the game.

Jake couldn't have said it any better :happy204:

[lateapex911]

Jake couldn't have said it any better :happy204:

he rarely does.............


:)

[mengelke]

As the Executive Steward in Cen-Div the buck stops at my doorstep. Tech no longers has the power to write up notes in the log book on there own. They must have it approved by the Chief steward. I saw the car in passing but, did not spend anytime looking at it in great detail. While I agree that fix by next event near the end of the season was perhaps a little hard. Jared told me his next SCCA event would most likely be the same race next year. Had he said earlier I would have contacted the Chief Steward of his next event and had the notation changed.

All Exec's in the country are going to enforce only the Chief Steward anotations in log books.

I told Jared that I was meeting with the Competition Director of Medwestern Council at a SCCA event in October and would talk with Jared after that event.

Mike Engelke
Cen-Div Exec Steward

[mc-integra111]

I hope no one is mistaking my disappointment with the situation for disappointment with the people. Everyone at SCCA including the tech people, the chief steward, and the executive have been very nice, helpful, and respectful.

I did not mean for this to escalate anything. I just wanted to hear people's opinions and I think this is a good way to do it. Obviously the majority of racers believe this is too much damage, and this has affected my future decisions about the car.

Sorry Kevin, schedule is finalized with Council events for the rest of the year since I am in the ITA points lead. Maybe next year. Or maybe next year you can come try to set an RA track record with Council ;) Good luck at Mid-Ohio. I'll be down at the ARRC cheering for you.

Thanks for the compliments David, I didn't miss them. I'm sorry to say that I don't believe I have seen you or your car (although I do have a bad memory).

[philstireservice]

Late to the dance...but it looks fine. Probably better than most ........:shrug:

Like what was said by most ...fix it over the winter. Then if someone hits you next year.....grab him by the neck and say.." Now you fix it for me"....:eclipsee_steering:

[rsportvolvo]

Fixing your car will cost money, but what about the money you could save by fixing your car?

I would fix the car and do a good job at it. Then use my "so fresh and so clean" car to get advertising money or product. Many hate NASCAR, but they truly understand the mobile billboard principle.

If you use your car as a mobile billboard you HAVE to keep the car in tip-top shape. No spokeman is better than a poor spokesman. It worked for a friend's Production race car as he recieved FREE tires as required from Goodyear (he was a front runner and his attention detail in his car's appearance was also shown in the cars build quality and performance). Compare your tire budget with fixing the car. My guess is that free tires (or oil, or brake pads, etc.) is worth "hammer time," bondo, a paint job and some wax.

Also, having worked in SPEED World-Challenge and Rolex A LOT of crew time is spent keeping the car, paddock, and pit areas "neat and tidy." Professional cleaners who perform some racing services.

It's embarassing for the sport to see rat traps running around. It isn't hard to have a nice looking race car.

Were you drawn to racing by the rat traps or the nice looking cars?

[loudes13]

Prepping a race car is hard enough. You made an honest attempt to fix it. If SCCA doesn't want your money...

[slopok]

Lets have a bunch of shit boxes running around. If you can't afford to fix body damage you should not be in this sport period.

[slopok]

Direct reply back to Jared... bondo isn't the only way to repair your car; it's just the easiest/cheapest. If you don't like using it, then perhaps you should replace the panels in question. It's your choice; do you want to patch up or replace the panels that are damaged? There's no provision in the rulebook for not adequately repairing damage.

As for paint... you seem again to be taking very much a black-or-white, all or nothing view of the matter. Do you really mean to tell me that the paint all has to match perfectly? Close is good. Or even a better idea, change your paint scheme on the fly. Most racecars have multi-color paint. And metallic paint is a really poor choice for a racecar, for exactly this reason - too hard to touch up.

Does my car look ugly??

http://vaughanscott.com/Races/2007/IT_Fest_07/tiretemps.jpg

As you can see, not perfect. But looks fine, and never had tech complain about appearance. That's a $300 MAACO paint job, customized with Krylon and Rustoleum. Easy to touch up between races as needed. And I race mostly at Waterford, where a little incidental contact should be expected, like it or not. I'm not fond of doing bodywork either, so I make it as easy on myself as possible.

(and, FWIW, I have since replaced that LF fender with a fresh one, since it was not really salvageable long-term - that was the best I could do without too much bondoing at the time).


Yes the car looks unsightly (ugly)for a Porsche

[lateapex911]

I love it when a guy flings poo but is too chicken to sign his name.....


:shrug:

[slopok]

Why ask the question if you can't take the answer. The car looks bad in a poor photo what's it look like in person ? A zillion dents in the left front fender. A disgrace to the name badge. If you can't afford to maintain the looks (cheap to do) what is the mechanical stuff like?

What does a name have to do with honesty ?

Perhaps I'll make the same statement to you in person next week.

[Mike Guenther]

I love our club and I am thankful to see many of us who share the desire for the club to show a little class by trying to keep our hot rods looking decent, clean and not too banged up. I also like to bring a good looking car to the track, but unfortunately it is not always possible to keep up with work, home and auto repairs in time for the next race. I recall not too many years ago that one of my fellows accused me of keeping the racer tape companies in production.

Looking at some old pictures of cars past, I see that it was true. I am thankful for the stewards that had patience to let me have some time between repairs. I used to think that new paint just gave some guys something to aim for so I didn't always replace fenders promptly when the repairs weren't looking professional or even good.

Thanks and Kudos go out to Mike Engelke, Cen-Div Exec Steward, for speaking up for moderation. :happy204: Jared's car wasn't so bad that it shouldn't be allowed to continue entering events. At the same time, the tech inspector reminded him that we do try to uphold some level of standards on appearance and he should plan on making some cosmetic repairs in addition to the rough repairs already attempted. Jared's car didn't look so bad and the answers to his question here helped him define the consensus of opinions of his fellow club members as to what was considered acceptable and desirable in appearance in our club..

I am all in favor of Slopok's idea when he suggested,

Lets have a bunch of shit boxes running around. If you can't afford to fix body damage you should not be in this sport period.

That's a great idea. We could make a separate class for clunkers. And we could give them their own time to run too, on Saturday nights. Oh yea and on their own track. We'll call it roundy-round racing, where rubbin' is racin'. Say shit boxes three times and see if it doesn't make you smile.:D

[Spinnetti]

I think there's a bigger question than the dents on the car.... As was posted earlier, we aren't running a junker class, and having to be responsible for your bodywork will (hopefully) reduce the amount of contact between cars knowing you have to fix it. Right now, I've got my car stripped to the bare chassis, and I'm fixing/repainting the whole thing to near showroom (it has only ever had one dent). Who wants to run with a bunch of Junkers anyway? Oddly enough, I've just run two 24hrs of Lemons races (not in the same car!), and not only was it a ton more fun than any SCCA race I've ever done, but there was less contact. At lemons, they black flag anybody who touches anything. Keeps things clean, and I wish they would do that in SCCA... would reduce the amount of crashing and banging, which I for one, want no part of.

[924Guy]

Yes the car looks unsightly (ugly)for a Porsche

LOL... looks better than yours! Faster, too... :smilie_pokal:

[gran racing]

Spinnetti, I'm not trying to pick on you but if you re-read your post, it's interesting. In one sense you're saying that having to "be responsible for bodywork will (hopefully) reduce the amount of contact between cars knowing you have to fix it." Then you say that when racing with the Lemons series there was less contact but essentially pointed out that those cars are less than showroom looking. Sure sounds like it's about how perfect the bodywork is but more a matter of the sanctioning body governing body contact, no? ;)

I don't condone intentional rubbing at this level but also accept that especially towards the front, contact will happen. We are racing sedans and love the fact that we can race so hard while knowing that if something does happen by accident, the risks are far less than if done open wheel racing. I'll also be the first to admit that I don't have the financial resources nor the time to make my car's appearance as pretty as some here might want. Instead of telling people like us to get out of racing, maybe you should find a new home if it bothers you that much.

Mike, maybe we should have clunkers race weekends? Might not be so bad. The guys I know who do the roundy round stuff pay $15 entry fees, winners get paid some decent bucks, annual fees to participate are extemely low (less than $50), and people other than family and friends of racers actually show up to watch the racing. Yeah, if they raced on road courses I'd be there. :D

[itracer]

Mike, maybe we should have clunkers race weekends? Might not be so bad. The guys I know who do the roundy round stuff pay $15 entry fees, winners get paid some decent bucks, annual fees to participate are extemely low (less than $50), and people other than family and friends of racers actually show up to watch the racing. Yeah, if they raced on road courses I'd be there. :D

When Life Hands You Lemons, Race Them

24 hours of LeMons

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/automobiles/28LEMONS.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Anyone?

[Spinnetti]

Spinnetti, I'm not trying to pick on you but if you re-read your post, it's interesting. In one sense you're saying that having to "be responsible for bodywork will (hopefully) reduce the amount of contact between cars knowing you have to fix it." Then you say that when racing with the Lemons series there was less contact but essentially pointed out that those cars are less than showroom looking. Sure sounds like it's about how perfect the bodywork is but more a matter of the sanctioning body governing body contact, no? ;)

I don't condone intentional rubbing at this level but also accept that especially towards the front, contact will happen. We are racing sedans and love the fact that we can race so hard while knowing that if something does happen by accident, the risks are far less than if done open wheel racing. I'll also be the first to admit that I don't have the financial resources nor the time to make my car's appearance as pretty as some here might want. Instead of telling people like us to get out of racing, maybe you should find a new home if it bothers you that much.

Mike, maybe we should have clunkers race weekends? Might not be so bad. The guys I know who do the roundy round stuff pay $15 entry fees, winners get paid some decent bucks, annual fees to participate are extemely low (less than $50), and people other than family and friends of racers actually show up to watch the racing. Yeah, if they raced on road courses I'd be there. :D

Maybe I mixed my messages here. I take pride in my car, and love road racing. I've been doing it for 15 years, and was at the pointy end of the field for almost all of that. At that end, I had minimal contact, but it got worse further back in the field.

key points are these:

1. This ain't NASCAR, and I don't have the resources or time to constantly fix my car, and I don't want to road race a junk heap, or drive with people who think they are in a crash up derby (I did get totalled once). The Lemons rule is a way to keep things clean, so I mentioned in that context.

2. Turns out Lemons is FUN! There are almost no rules, its very light hearted, and you can run what you brung. In that context, driving a junker is just fine, and its still real racing (much to my surprise). SCCA has lots to learn about fun.

3. To your point about the roundy round guys, I agree completely. How is it that their safety rules aren't so asinine, the racing is frequent and cheap, AND they pay out to the top places? How did the SCCA get so messed up?

4. Being in the SCCA a long time, the "if you don't like it F^^% off" seems to be the common approach... Ok, I did, and haven't raced for several years in SCCA, but I still keep in touch because I'm trying to decide if I want to come back or not. I love road racing, but also want to have fun - sounds like you'd rather I didn't since I want to keep a straight car (I've seen the videos of how you guys try to demolish each other out there).

Hmm... mebbe I'll stick with Lemons where I'm having more fun and just use my race car for track days. We raced two toyotas, a FX16 and a Celica, and finished 9th and 20 somthing despite one of our guys totaling the Celica, which set the 2nd fastest lap of the race AFTER wrecking it. BTW, Toledo was my first race on a banked oval (under the lights all night no less), and it was way more fun than I thought it would be (they made it into a pseudo road course). I was practically dizzy after 700 laps though!

[gran racing]

sounds like you'd rather I didn't since I want to keep a straight car

Not true. I'd much prefer to have a pretty car like it was when I finished building it. At the same point I recognize and accept that shit happens and I might not be able to get it back to that condition due to various constraints. Vaughn's car is a great example. It looks nice, but has some battle wounds. So what. We're CLUB racing and most of us are not trying to solicit sponsors. Having a car looking super pretty doesn't seem to do much to deter things in many pro racing venues. Gesh, BTCC is a prime example. LOL

[lateapex911]

Gesh, BTCC is a prime example. LOL

I LOVE BTTC! Is it on anywhere anymore?? I miss it!

[Spinnetti]

Not true. I'd much prefer to have a pretty car like it was when I finished building it. At the same point I recognize and accept that shit happens and I might not be able to get it back to that condition due to various constraints. Vaughn's car is a great example. It looks nice, but has some battle wounds. So what. We're CLUB racing and most of us are not trying to solicit sponsors. Having a car looking super pretty doesn't seem to do much to deter things in many pro racing venues. Gesh, BTCC is a prime example. LOL

True, but in the BTTC (my favorite racing of all time), they get paid, and they aren't wrecking their cars! That's exactly my point. Since we don't have that kind of money, and most of us have to fix our own rides, shouldn't there be a bit more emphasis on minimizing contact? (e.g. recent lemons, most car marque club racing and vintage racing). I realize there's contact, and the few times where me and somebody else got a little close and rubbed tires is no biggie (and we laughed about it post races in most cases), but the intentional crashing into each other to secure a line should get more attention, thats all. I've been rear ended hard several times with no penalty to the offenders. That ain't racing, thats just being a jerk. I'm not saying this as sour grapes from the back of the field either!

PS, the BTTC seems to be showing a bit of life again after it kinda of fell apart due to cost... hopefully will get back to its former excitement.

[mc-integra111]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. It is nice to have a place to be able to get information from such a wide range of peers.

Thanks to all the SCCA officials as they were all very nice and respectful. In the end the "fix it for the next season'' was the final decision. I want to also point out again that that point was made to me very quickly after the RA event, so I am very pleased with the process.

To make my decision easier, the car made contact with another guardrail at ACC (Same place the previous damage occurred, that place doesn't like my car) and will be getting new body panels all the way around for next season. I look forward to running another SCCA event next year.

[924Guy]

Good to hear of the resolution - but bummer about the new, longer list of repairs!

I guess if you wanna look on the bright side - by the time you return to the track next year, you'll be fully acquainted with the methods and tools for DIY body repairs! ;)