Watkins Glen ITS Video - spectator view

[benspeed]

OK - Speilberg I'm not but this should provide some entertainment. Folks who haven't been to WGI will get a perspective on how large, unique and beautiful this track is. I move around for several different views.

Since I have an ITS car again my focus is totally on the ITS guys racing in Group 1. A good friend, John Grezech got on the track for the first time this year in his ITS RX7 so I spend time focused on his car.

I have no editing skills so this is pretty raw footage. I have clips from the Sat and Sun races. Sat was raining - Sun was pretty dry.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=407143954908402477&hl=en

[lateapex911]

Nice! Interesting assumptive commentary regrading the "Amy incident".. LOL>

[benspeed]

Yeah - wish I could pull that back - it wasn't a Miatter wipeout and it was too easy to blame that model car.

[CRallo]

I did enjoy the commentary...
:D

[lateapex911]

Uh have you seen Gregs in car video??? The white ITA car that Greg was passing hung high in the last "S" as Greg and ITS train stormed up. They successfully got my the two cars (ITB Golf, it appears) closely trailing said white car, but then at the last split second, it swung down into the path of the oncoming train of ITS cars that were glued to Gregs bumper. Greg made a split second call and tried to lift and go high and "thread the needle" behind the white car moving down and the cars just passed, but didn't quite make it, and his RF hit the white cars LR, spinning it and he. Wilson went off onto the right grass, and that didn't end well either.

Sobering video on being aware of fast moving traffic coming from behind. And Harding, the leader, had just stormed by, so the white car should have known that more were coming. A rookie mistake perhaps, but I understand it wasn't a rookie driver.

ALL of the above is IMO...

see it here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7958267554041595094&hl=en

[RSTPerformance]

Uh have you seen Gregs in car video??? The white ITA car that Greg was passing hung high in the last "S" as Greg and ITS train stormed up. They successfully got my the two cars (ITB Golf, it appears) closely trailing said white car, but then at the last split second, it swung down into the path of the oncoming train of ITS cars that were glued to Gregs bumper. Greg made a split second call and tried to lift and go high and "thread the needle" behind the white car moving down and the cars just passed, but didn't quite make it, and his RF hit the white cars LR, spinning it and he. Wilson went off onto the right grass, and that didn't end well either.

Sobering video on being aware of fast moving traffic coming from behind. And Harding, the leader, had just stormed by, so the white car should have known that more were coming. A rookie mistake perhaps, but I understand it wasn't a rookie driver.

ALL of the above is IMO...

see it here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7958267554041595094&hl=en


Jake-

I am sorry but based on this video only I am not sure I can agree with your comments... We can learn from this incident... I know that "this" type of thing has the potential a lot when I am lapping traffic, so it must happen a ton for those ITS and ITA front runners. I completely agree that the Miata should have left more room but other than that it was a very thin needle to thread, and the car sounded like it was on the throtle when it hit the Miata. I would love to see video from one of the cars just behind the incident.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ben, I love the videos from the spectator POV. I would be willing to grab the raw footage during as session if we can get approval to be in a cool area at LRP for the NARRC-offs.

[Dano77]

Isnt it amazing how soon you relieze"we are really flyin" as soon as it goes wrong. Hope Gregs Ok. Dan

[mlytle]

Jake-

I am sorry but based on this video only I am not sure I can agree with your comments... We can learn from this incident... I know that "this" type of thing has the potential a lot when I am lapping traffic, so it must happen a ton for those ITS and ITA front runners. I completely agree that the Miata should have left more room but other than that it was a very thin needle to thread, and the car sounded like it was on the throtle when it hit the Miata. I would love to see video from one of the cars just behind the incident.

Raymond

just based on watching the incar a half dozen times, i have to agree. Sobering video on being aware of slow moving traffic being overtaken. a flick of the wrist and a touch of lift instead of gas and it may have been a clean outside pass. A rookie mistake perhaps, but I understand it wasn't a rookie driver.....:)

just the valueless internet opinion of someone who was not sitting in either drivers seat. :D

[Greg Amy]

just based on watching the incar a half dozen times...
Boy, sure wish I'd 'a had a half-dozen times to watch it before I had to make that decision...

More telling, what was your INITIAL thought upon watching the scene unfold (keeping in mind, of course, that you had full knowledge that something was about to happen...?)


...a flick of the wrist and a touch of lift instead of gas and it may have been a clean outside pass. I'm glad you think so...because that's exactly what I did. (Watch again, this time with the sound turned up...)

:shrug:

[dj10]

Were the passing flags out? Was the Pinata driver watching is mirrors or did he see a dark car coming up on him and was trying to close the door? My inital thought is why was he so wide there to begin with? It's up to the passer to make a safe pass but it's also the responsibility of the car being passed to allow racing room.

[benspeed]

My comment - it really sucks to see that many wreckers and ambulances out for your friends.

I won't be taping at the NARRCoffs - because I will be racing in ITS - and doing my damnest to win it in my $5k beater. My buddy John G proved you can drive the piss out of a (underdeveloped) car and get to the front - he just needed to hang on a little harder. He owes Jeff a door and a cold beer :-)

Phone call to Flatout shortly with much cash evaporation to follow.

PS - on watching the in-car again - props to Greg for not screaming like a chicken before he hit. I picked him up from the Ambulance and he was more concerned about his fellow competitors than anything else.

[JohnRW]

Time to award the "Asshat Move of the Race", which IMO happened on the front straight

On Sunday, I was at the top of the stands, down toward T1. On lap 2-4 (?), the two lead RX7's had a little "coming together", about 100 yds. past start-finish. Not really sure who decided to rub who, but somebody did it intentionally. One of the two even got a little sideways. Tire smoke, what looked like a major wrinkle in the fender(s)....at probably 100+mph with concrete on one side and armco on the other. WTF ?

Don't know if it got called in by S/F or T1 flaggers, but if not, here's some advice: Stewards see this crap and immediately think "somebody needs to sit out for a while...like 3-6 months".

Just sayin...

JRW
Sometimes driver, sometimes Steward
SSM #88
SRF # 57
etc. etc. etc.

[Doc Bro]

Hard Hit. Greg glad you're ok. Very heads-up to keep the car off track and on the grass while it was going backwards. That could've been even uglier.

Everytime I go through the Esses at the Glen I always think...."Man I'd hate to wreck here....." I'm right.

How bad's the car?

R

[Greg Amy]

BTW, Ben: LOVE the video! I'll probably be at LRP on Saturday for the NARRC; maybe we can coordinate and produce a nearly-Spielberg-quality - and oh-so-humorous - effort...


How bad's the car?
Bad. Initial estimates are ugly. Probably not "economically repairable" but we'll see.

[joeg]

That track shows no mercy; never has and never will.

[JoshS]

Hey Greg,

Do you use your headlights in situations like that? I find it works great. Not only do the lapped traffic see you earlier, but I find that the blue flags seem snappier too.

If I really feel like someone doesn't see me coming despite the high beams, I actually flash them low-high-low-high a bunch of times. But generally if I'm the lead car and we've caught lapped traffic, the high beams are on as a matter of course.

[Butch Kummer]

Was there ever a discussion of the incident with the driver of the white car?

[Greg Amy]

Do you use your headlights in situations like that?
Josh, I thought about it, but far too late. Plus, I am relatively unfamiliar with the car and didn't want to dickin' around with switches while in the middle of that.

Was there ever a discussion of the incident with the driver of the white car?
Yes, afterwards with the Safety Steward (WGI makes you go talk to them after being released from Medical). The driver said he had no idea what happened, no idea who hit him, no idea why he ended up in the wall.

[Butch Kummer]

Yes, afterwards with the Safety Steward (WGI makes you go talk to them after being released from Medical). The driver said he had no idea what happened, no idea who hit him, no idea why he ended up in the wall.

That statement alone is scary. And this was NOT a novice driver?

Over the years I've developed a list of people that I KNOW I must only pass on the straights, and then only after I've honked the horn and flashed the lights three times to let them know I'm there. Those of you in NEDIV that will be racing with this person should take note.

Just sayin'...

[CRallo]

as far as lifting and swerving with out wrecking goes: any good driver knows that is easier said than done. I believe Greg did all he could do with out spinning himself instantly.

Greg: did you get nailed from behind?? after/during the wiggling...

[JeffHarding]

Time to award the "Asshat Move of the Race", which IMO happened on the front straight

On Sunday, I was at the top of the stands, down toward T1. On lap 2-4 (?), the two lead RX7's had a little "coming together", about 100 yds. past start-finish. Not really sure who decided to rub who, but somebody did it intentionally. One of the two even got a little sideways. Tire smoke, what looked like a major wrinkle in the fender(s)....at probably 100+mph with concrete on one side and armco on the other. WTF ?

Don't know if it got called in by S/F or T1 flaggers, but if not, here's some advice: Stewards see this crap and immediately think "somebody needs to sit out for a while...like 3-6 months".

Just sayin...

JRW
Sometimes driver, sometimes Steward
SSM #88
SRF # 57
etc. etc. etc.

That was me who got "rubbed" and "a little sideways". I had gotten a run out of T11 and was most of the way by the #19 car. I was inside with at least 2 car widths to my left and holding my line. Prior to the rub the 19 was squeezing and pinching me wherever he could and I think he just got a little too aggressive trying to move me to the inside that time. He came over and apologized after but had no explanation for why it happened. No mention from the stewards or flaggers.

Jeff Harding
#04 ITS RX-7

[wepsbee]

Greg, real sorry to see you take that hit. I hope you and the car will recover. I have raced there a couple of times and love the track, from my rookie perspective I would like to check on what my view would be: I would assume since the white car was so far towards the outside it should have stayed there through the turn. Is this correct??

[JohnRW]

That was me who got "rubbed" and "a little sideways". I had gotten a run out of T11 and was most of the way by the #19 car. I was inside with at least 2 car widths to my left and holding my line. Prior to the rub the 19 was squeezing and pinching me wherever he could and I think he just got a little too aggressive trying to move me to the inside that time. He came over and apologized after but had no explanation for why it happened. No mention from the stewards or flaggers.


That's pretty much what I saw. You (car on the inside) were nearly past the outside car, right in the freakin middle-right of the track approaching a right-hand turn, and your left rear quarter got seriously rubbed by the other cars right front. IMO, only "explanation" he could honestly offer is "I wanted to intimidate you...from behind...and 'crashing' is one variety of 'intimidate'". Apology = Crocodile tears. If this is a pattern...or the beginning of a pattern, you ITS guys should take note.

[Z3_GoCar]

Greg,

I'm glad you're alright. I know you'll have it fixed or replaced soon enough. It seemed like it was about to work untill the bumper rub.

James

[Tristan Smith]

I think the unfortunate lesson here is to always assume the slower car you are passing doesn't see you if you don't see a "point by". No doubt that can put you in some pretty precarious positions. The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line) but he was ahead of the freight train and does have the right to the racing line. Tough call and bad results for all. Obviously if had no idea what or who hit him, he never saw the faster cars coming up on him, and that is a cardinal sin for slower cars in mixed fields.

[lateapex911]

I think the unfortunate lesson here is to always assume the slower car you are passing doesn't see you if you don't see a "point by". No doubt that can put you in some pretty precarious positions. The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line) but he was ahead of the freight train and does have the right to the racing line. Tough call and bad results for all. Obviously if had no idea what or who hit him, he never saw the faster cars coming up on him, and that is a cardinal sin for slower cars in mixed fields.

Tristian, that's the problem. If you assume the guy is going to close the door, then the majority of them have to, otherwise you get passed like you're tied to the pier. In reality, most don't.

He WAS way high, and unless I hadn't seen the pictures of the wrecked Teg first, I would have assumed he was leaving room, and nothing was going to happen. The only reason I cringed when I got to that section of the vid was because I already knew the Teg was banged up.. And why wouldn't he stay high? it's SO easy to leave room there...there is NO reason to have to dive for the apex, and it's easy flat out for most IT cars, if not all. heck, I'm flat there in the wet.

And, not only must he be looking, but he must have no blind spots. Mirrors are cheaper than wrecked race cars. The leader had JUST blown through, the fact that other cars were coming should have been NO surprise, he had two straighaways to find them in the mirrors.

:shrug:


Could Greg have done a better job and missed him? Maybe. But we're all sitting in our desk chairs with the clip on repeat, in his split second position I would have attempted the same thing, but I have no idea how the outcome would have been. I know I would have been thinking "Oh s8it'.........

[dj10]

Do you use your headlights in situations like that? I find it works great. Not only do the lapped traffic see you earlier, but I find that the blue flags seem snappier too.


Josh, I thought about it, but far too late. Plus, I am relatively unfamiliar with the car and didn't want to dickin' around with switches while in the middle of that.

AHHHHHHHH Greg! Pilot to Pilot:cool:

[Doc Bro]

Greg,

The Z3 is shorter than the Teg. It would've fit...guaranteed.

Now where would a guy needing a racecar find a Kessler powered Z3 for sale? Hmmmm.:cool:

R

[CRallo]

Greg,

The Z3 is shorter than the Teg. It would've fit...guaranteed.

Now where would a guy needing a racecar find a Kessler powered Z3 for sale? Hmmmm.:cool:

R

ha, nice plug!

[CRallo]

That track shows no mercy; never has and never will.


that is true... once, back when I worked at Skip Barber we framed 14 cars in one week there. wrecked many more... 13 of those 14 cars fit into a trailer designed for 11 :D

[Tristan Smith]

Tristian, that's the problem. If you assume the guy is going to close the door, then the majority of them have to, otherwise you get passed like you're tied to the pier. In reality, most don't.

He WAS way high, and unless I hadn't seen the pictures of the wrecked Teg first, I would have assumed he was leaving room, and nothing was going to happen. The only reason I cringed when I got to that section of the vid was because I already knew the Teg was banged up.. And why wouldn't he stay high? it's SO easy to leave room there...there is NO reason to have to dive for the apex, and it's easy flat out for most IT cars, if not all. heck, I'm flat there in the wet.

And, not only must he be looking, but he must have no blind spots. Mirrors are cheaper than wrecked race cars. The leader had JUST blown through, the fact that other cars were coming should have been NO surprise, he had two straighaways to find them in the mirrors.

:shrug:


Could Greg have done a better job and missed him? Maybe. But we're all sitting in our desk chairs with the clip on repeat, in his split second position I would have attempted the same thing, but I have no idea how the outcome would have been. I know I would have been thinking "Oh s8it'.........


Jake, I am not disagreeing with you at all. I am just saying that when I don't see a point by, all bets are off whether it is going to be a successful pass or not. Last year I was ahead of a car at Turn 7 at Rd Atl. He was almost on the inside edge of track. He still t-boned me. Hit me right in front of the rear tire. I even saw his video when I protested him. You could clearly see my whole car in front of him before he plowed in. My point is, sometimes bad things happen when you aren't sure of the guy in the car in front of you.

[Greg Amy]

The flip side from what I saw, was that he may have been a bit high in that portion of the corner (I have never driven WGI so I don't know the proper line)...
He was absolutely nowhere near the racing line.

He was a minimum of two cars widths outside of the racing line. Watch the video again and look for the shiny part on the asphalt immediately after passing the Golf; that's the normal racing line through the corner (I suggest turning off the sound and blocking visual reference to the 'Teg driver to get a better visual on what the Miata driver is doing relative to the racing line.) If you want a slightly better - and shorter - version of that video (not as Google-ized), select this link:

http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/WGI-Short.wmv

I will not project motivations as to why or what the driver was thinking/doing.

Just sayin'.

[wwrightjr]

JohnW has a good perspective. As a spectator-driver in the ITS class for awhile, I have seen and been around enough too close racing. It appears the consesus is if I can rub the guy a bit or a bit more, he will move over or make a mistake. Although this may be used at a professional level, their budgets are a whole lot bigger and the outcomes are probably more important. We are at the amateur level. First is the possibility of being hurt. Second, everybody is spending as much as they can to be competitive. Any set back will cost more. ( I know and I do not want to hear the saying, If you can't spend the money you should not be in it.) The guy with the entry level car is trying just as hard as the guy who has been in for awhile. He pays the entry like everyone else. And can be on the track. But, I want to be somewhat sure that the other driver has enough sense to know what is going on around them. I know we take chances, but there is no need to make things worse by not thinking on track. This particular incident was high speed with great potential for injury. I saw Greg after and he seemed ok. I do not know about Mr Stahl the Miata driver. It has taken a few days with ibuprofen for my neck pain to go away. (I am probably 10 years older than most of you guys.) I hope he appreciates that I did not T-bone him in the door. For he was coming across the track in front of me. Time, Speed, Distance is what allows some to get thru and others not. RANDY POBSTS articles in Sports Car should be mandatory reading. If anyone has not read these they should. A very good guide to what to do. Wilson

[Jeremy Billiel]

JohnW has a good perspective. As a spectator-driver in the ITS class for awhile, I have seen and been around enough too close racing. It appears the consesus is if I can rub the guy a bit or a bit more, he will move over or make a mistake. Although this may be used at a professional level, their budgets are a whole lot bigger and the outcomes are probably more important. We are at the amateur level. First is the possibility of being hurt. Second, everybody is spending as much as they can to be competitive. Any set back will cost more. ( I know and I do not want to hear the saying, If you can't spend the money you should not be in it.) The guy with the entry level car is trying just as hard as the guy who has been in for awhile. He pays the entry like everyone else. And can be on the track. But, I want to be somewhat sure that the other driver has enough sense to know what is going on around them. I know we take chances, but there is no need to make things worse by not thinking on track. This particular incident was high speed with great potential for injury. I saw Greg after and he seemed ok. I do not know about Mr Stahl the Miata driver. It has taken a few days with ibuprofen for my neck pain to go away. (I am probably 10 years older than most of you guys.) I hope he appreciates that I did not T-bone him in the door. For he was coming across the track in front of me. Time, Speed, Distance is what allows some to get thru and others not. RANDY POBSTS articles in Sports Car should be mandatory reading. If anyone has not read these they should. A very good guide to what to do. Wilson

Wilson I am glad to hear that you are feeling better. This was an unfortunate incident that tore up 3 racecars. With that said, I think we are all curious to hear your view on what happened from your car.

We watch Greg's video and can see that the miata some how gains speed and T bones the Acura in the passenger side door. The only way we can reasonably assume that the miata caught up to Greg was if you hit the miata and transferred your energy into him, which then flew into Greg. Is this what happened?

I was watching the full resolution video last night and after watching it more it appears as though Greg missed "the hole" by a good amount. Why would that have happened? The only reasonable assumption is that as Jerry pulled to the right he scrubbed speed and slowed down, which closed the gap sooner than Greg anticipated and bam.... The rest is history. I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Many mistakes were made and everyone is ok.

Again I am happy to hear that you are feeling better.

[CRallo]

I believe Greg missed the "hole" by a small margin, the contact was just bumper to bumper rub... I think Jermey is correct about the cause for the closure rate.

It appears that the Miata not only T-boned the Teg but I believe also was the car to tag Greg in the right rear with alot of lateral force and caused Greg to spin. Can't tell if the Miata got hit but it seems that Greg's rub upset his hard turn to the right and he overcorrected to turn into the Teg before Greg could get past.

or was that a given?? No one answered when I asked who hit Greg so I went back and (i think) figured it out myself...

[Chris Wire]

He was absolutely nowhere near the racing line.

He was a minimum of two cars widths outside of the racing line. Watch the video again and look for the shiny part on the asphalt immediately after passing the Golf; that's the normal racing line through the corner (I suggest turning off the sound and blocking visual reference to the 'Teg driver to get a better visual on what the Miata driver is doing relative to the racing line.) If you want a slightly better - and shorter - version of that video (not as Google-ized), select this link:

http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/WGI-Short.wmv

I will not project motivations as to why or what the driver was thinking/doing.

Just sayin'.

In addition to the statement above, I think the other underlying reason for the incident is that the Miata driver appeared to take a rather late apex. Now I've never driven WGI, but have seen plenty of coverage inside cars and out. And at the speeds that it looks like on video, I would reasonably assume that the white curbing on the right would be about where the apex should be, no? That said, the Miata driver either chose a very late apex, closed the door without looking, or decided that he wanted the faster approaching cars to pass by his left and simply misjudged the closing speed.

Unfortunate for all for sure, but lessons can still be learned. Glad everyone is well.

[jgoyette]

Wilson I am glad to hear that you are feeling better. This was an unfortunate incident that tore up 3 racecars. With that said, I think we are all curious to hear your view on what happened from your car.

We watch Greg's video and can see that the miata some how gains speed and T bones the Acura in the passenger side door. The only way we can reasonably assume that the miata caught up to Greg was if you hit the miata and transferred your energy into him, which then flew into Greg. Is this what happened?

I was watching the full resolution video last night and after watching it more it appears as though Greg missed "the hole" by a good amount. Why would that have happened? The only reasonable assumption is that as Jerry pulled to the right he scrubbed speed and slowed down, which closed the gap sooner than Greg anticipated and bam.... The rest is history. I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Many mistakes were made and everyone is ok.

Again I am happy to hear that you are feeling better.

Jermery,

I know wilson did not hit the miata the order of cars was Harding,Amy, Rooke, Wright, the question at hand here is did Rooke have any damage. I could not tell if he was running at the end of the race from Ben's video. All and all i agree with Wilson approach He is a 3 time national champ and has do things in race car that most dream off. He is a true class action.

Jessie Goyette

[Doc Bro]

All and all i agree with Wilson approach He is a 3 time national champ and has do things in race car that most dream off. He is a true class action.

Jessie Goyette


No doubt; if you want to be humbled you should see him in the rain at Lime Rock, it's just not fair....

BTW in my opinion after watching the video the white Miata simply had no situational awareness. That section of track is fast with plenty of grip and room, making a "true" apex not vital in the purest sense. He could have maitained his position (and let the overtaking cars go) without losing any speed or track position to the cars he was racing. My guess is he was too busy looking at his speedometer to see how fast he was going so he could tell his friends. Really preventable, and a shame to tear up good race cars and risk others safety and wellbeing.

How did the Miarta fair in terms of damage?

R

[wwrightjr]

Jessie and Doc, It is very nice of you to make these comments. Thank You. Jeremy, as per our conversation today I believe this is what happened. When the Miata got turned to drivers right, Greg moved to the left and got control of the car. Within this 1 to 2 second period the Miata which is still broadside to the track comes back to hit the Integra in the side. This allows Matt to get by. After Matts exit the Miata moves to drivers right, still broadside coming across the track. This is where I decide to go drivers right to avoid hitting the Miata. As the Miata now has moved mostly to the right the rest of the field goes by. And the Miata hits the right rail. The first hit on the Integra is the Miata. The second is the Integra hitting the rail. Wilson.

[rsx858]

I know wilson did not hit the miata the order of cars was Harding,Amy, Rooke, Wright, the question at hand here is did Rooke have any damage. I could not tell if he was running at the end of the race from Ben's video. All and all i agree with Wilson approach He is a 3 time national champ and has do things in race car that most dream off. He is a true class action.

Jessie Goyette


My Perspective: I was right in Amy's draft coming off of T1 and up to the accident. IMO Amy was unable to slam the brakes because he knew i was right behind and he would have likely got rear ended. I would have attempted the same move.

My car sustained no damage. Though it was an extremely close call after Amy took the big hit, I missed him by a hair.

I agree the miata had no reason to take that apex and he should have had more situational awareness. Though the rules tend to point the finger at the overtaking driver in these situations, I would clarify this as a common racing incident that unfortunatly happened at a very high speed and walled in part of the race course.

[ulfelder]

I know I'm late to the party on this, but what a %$#! scary hit! What occurs to me as I watch it is how fast we're going at the end of the esses, and that "floaty" feeling you often get there. And that's when you're by yourself, no traffic in sight! Glad everybody's more or less OK.

Greg, old chum, you've had more than your share of Miata-lapping hardship this year.

Steve

[lateapex911]

When the Miata got turned to drivers right, Greg moved to the left and got control of the car. Within this 1 to 2 second period the Miata which is still broadside to the track comes back to hit the Integra in the side. This allows Matt to get by. After Matts exit the Miata moves to drivers right, still broadside coming across the track. This is where I decide to go drivers right to avoid hitting the Miata.


That makes the most sense, Wilson...but I saw you go for your ride on the grass in the video, and i saw a disabled car parked there, and I saw the aftermath (how bad's the car?), but I've missed how your deal went down? What happened to you?

[erlrich]

Do you use your headlights in situations like that? I find it works great. Not only do the lapped traffic see you earlier, but I find that the blue flags seem snappier too.


I just wanted to add that I think this should almost be required of the fastest class running in a multi-class race group. This is particularly helpful to those drivers, like me, who typically don't get lapped in a sprint race, and so may not be expecting that car coming up behind them to be a faster class coming through. And yes, I know we all need to be watching our mirrors, but IMO there is a considerable difference in the mindset of a driver who expects to be lapped during a race and one who does not.

A perfect example was MARRS 1, when Dan got punted in T1 on the second or third lap. As he was working his way back through the field I was able to spot him coming waaaay before he ever got to me, and was able to plan accordingly and let him by safely and cleanly. As it turned out he caught me on the front straight when I was pretty much alone, so it probably wouldn't have been an issue anyway, but under different circumstances...

This is also not to say I believe that was a contributing factor to this incident - it seems pretty clear that the Miata driver didn't see Greg coming (at least I hope that's the case - as opposed to he knew Greg was coming and moved over anyway) and I don't know that headlights would make any difference if a driver wasn't using his mirrors. IMO it looks like Greg almost pulled of a great save, but the closing rate was just too high. It's really sad to see that many cars torn up because a driver wasn't aware of what was going on around him, but then how many close calls do we see from this very same thing? And for those who commented on the fact that the guy isn't a rookie - in my very short time racing I can say that I've seen more than a few 'experienced' drivers pull some pretty dumb moves.

One other question I had; Wilson, were you wearing any type of H&N restraint? If so, which one?

I glad to hear everyone was - relatively - uninjured, that could have been a lot worse.

[slopok]

From where I sit the miata made a bonehead move. It appears the driver was not aware of his surroundings (really sad). With that said I bet the overtaking driver wish he had a little more patience maybe a second or two.... Too bad for all the damage but everyone came out realatively OK

[dj10]

Earl, that wasn't my post but it certaintly applies. The more you standout in racing, color wise, the safer you will be. That is the reason I changed the color of the car from grey to it's present colors. I do use my headlights almost all the time not to freak anyone out, but to let them know where I'm at, if there are a lot of cars, I'll use my high beams. I feel for GA, this should not have happened if the pinata driver would have held his WIDE line instead of slaming the door on G we wouldn't be having the discussion. The video tells all except what was going throught the Pinata's driver mind. Damn G you didn't even get any candy after cracking that Pinata open! :~(

[JoshS]

Earl, that wasn't my post but it certaintly applies.

Yeah, it was mine.

If I'm the overall leader, or even just the leader of a pack, I turn the headlights on as soon as I see the back of the pack in front of me. High beams. However, if I'm NOT leading the race or a pack, then I don't ... I don't want to annoy the people who I'm trying to pass.

[dj10]

Yeah, it was mine.

If I'm the overall leader, or even just the leader of a pack, I turn the headlights on as soon as I see the back of the pack in front of me. High beams. However, if I'm NOT leading the race or a pack, then I don't ... I don't want to annoy the people who I'm trying to pass.

Josh, I could give a rats ass who is annoyed, as a matter of fact, if they are annoyed they see me and to me it's a matter of survival. Hopefully I get by them quickly then they won't be annoyed anymore.:cool:

[JoshS]

I meant that I didn't want to annoy the guy I'm chasing. The headlights are necessary so the lapped traffic sees me. But if I'm directly chasing someone (ie I'm in 2nd place) then the guy in first knows I'm there! He doesn't need high beams in his mirrors continuously for 5 laps. That's why I only use the lights if I'm leading a pack through traffic.

[joeg]

This is getting a bit drawn out. However, nothing is more "intimidating" than a black car on your butt...lights make it more so...

However, I do not think we want to mandate black cars for everyone and because we all race to the same GCR, you cannot mandate the use of headlights. Heck, many classes don't have headlights and every one with them is supposed to cover them up!

Cheers

[wwrightjr]

Jake, Went for a ride and hit the left and right guardrails ending up against the right rail. Car is totaled.
Earl, I'm kinda old and set in my ways. No restraints and open face helmut. Wilson

[dj10]

This is getting a bit drawn out. However, nothing is more "intimidating" than a black car on your butt...lights make it more so...

However, I do not think we want to mandate black cars for everyone and because we all race to the same GCR, you cannot mandate the use of headlights. Heck, many classes don't have headlights and every one with them is supposed to cover them up!

Cheers

No the light have to be taped up so who says you can't use clear tape? Most newer cars are coming through with plastic protective lens.

[jerestahl]

I am the driver of the white #45 Miata at Watkins Glen Fun One. I admit I was not aware Greg Amy was about to pass me. I was distracted by the car already off the track to my right. I am a rookie driver and WK was my first race in a brand new car. (Now junk.) I have been preached to over and over to maintain my line as it is always the over taking driver's responsability to pass me cleanly. After watching Gregs video many times I have concluded he did not hit me. In fact he cleared me and a car behind Greg must be the car who hit me, that knocked me into Greg's right rear which then turned him around. The three days in a hospital with a punctured lung and 3 broken ribs at age 73 is causing me to wonder exactly who did screw up.

[dj10]

I am the driver of the white #45 Miata at Watkins Glen Fun One. I admit I was not aware Greg Amy was about to pass me. I was distracted by the car already off the track to my right. I am a rookie driver and WK was my first race in a brand new car. (Now junk.) I have been preached to over and over to maintain my line as it is always the over taking driver's responsability to pass me cleanly. After watching Gregs video many times I have concluded he did not hit me. In fact he cleared me and a car behind Greg must be the car who hit me, that knocked me into Greg's right rear which then turned him around. The three days in a hospital with a punctured lung and 3 broken ribs at age 73 is causing me to wonder exactly who did screw up.

I hope you'll be ok. You need to be aware all the times, sometimes easier said than done, and you are responsible to give racing room, which you started to do by being off line by a car width +, then you slammed the door. I would suggest of some more drivers schools to get your lines down before returning to the arena.
Good Luck

[Jeremy Billiel]

Jere, I'm sorry to hear of your injuries and I am glad you are feeling better.

It's good to hear your side of the story, but we are pretty much confident that Greg hit your rear bumper and turned you sideways. No question, the video clearly shows that. In fact, there is purple paint marks on the right front corner of the front bumper, which correlate directly to a purple bumper sticker on your left rear fender.
But there's really two outstanding questions about the incident that I have. One, I'm curious as to why you came from so far offline to cross the track to the "wrong" side (that's not where you'd want to be for the subsequent straight). Did you see someone coming and try to get out of the way? Or was that just the line you were normally running?

And, we have yet to figure out how you were able to come from pointing right to turning left and t-boning the Integra in the right door. The Integra had what looked like a good 10 mph or more on you, so we just can't understand how that happened. Did you get hit by somebody when you were pointing right, which turned you left? Or did you get into a "tank slapper" and shoot left into the Integra? It's just odd that you hit the car so far forward, versus either sliding behind it or hitting the rear bumper.

I'm guessing you have no in-car video we could look at?

Again I am glad to hear you are doing better.

[JLawton]

Time to l.....e.....t... i.....t.... gooooooooooooooooooo

[joeg]

Jeff Is Absolutely Correct!

[lateapex911]

I'd second that. I imagine the Miata spun clockwise after the initial RF to LR contact, then just past 90 degrees, it shot backwards and across the track, into the side of the Teg. I bet the wheels weren't locked and it's drivers was along for the ride at that point.

After that it was pinball city.

Oh, I'd like to add that I was misinformed regarding the name of the driver, and his experience level. I'm glad I didn't name names, but sorry for the bad info.

And, I've broken ribs at the Glen too. There are worse things, but it's an annoying and a bit painful reminder of the event for the next 6 weeks. I hope your recovery is speedy and complete.

[benspeed]

Jerestahl - that's a shame the car was brand new and wrecked. What rotten deal. And the your injuries aren't minor. Laughing or coughing with broken ribs is agony - laying down for sleeping is painful too.

I commend you for not engaging in an online debate battle - you can claim it was the responsibility of the overtaking car and there would be some merit to the position per the GCR. There's some responsibility to be shared around - I'm not taking any sides on who was responsible.

Your fellow racers wish you a speedy recovery and I hope you make it back to the track.

[jerestahl]

What or why got in my head to pull down to the apex of the turn is beyond me. There is no doubt that I committed screwup #1. Did I have help in creating the $50,000 pile of bent sheet metal ?. Do all of us wish we could do it differently.... I'm sure. Who has the greatest responsibility is a moot point. The fact that God has apparently seen fit to give me more time is not influencing my wife to continue to support me racing and that is probably my greatest problem I'm facing today.

[RSTPerformance]

jerestahl-

Don't be to hard on yourself, the accident could have been avoided by either party, it was a result of multiple mistakes. You are correct it is the responsability of the passing car to make a safe pass... I am glad this video was posted as it should have been educational for both the lappeers and those that may be getting lapped.

Raymond "We are all wishing you a fast recovery!!!" Blethen

PS: Can I ask what made you get into racing at 73 yrs old and why didn't you get into it before now??? Don't get me wrong, I think it is great but I don't understand how you resisted soooo long!!!

[wwrightjr]

Jere, Glad to hear you are on the mend. Hope to be out there at 73 also. Wilson

[jerestahl]

I have wanted to road race since I went to the grand prix at Watkins Glen in 1951 at age 16. By the time I was situated enough to do anything it was much easier to drag race which I did with some success from 1960 to 1967. I then decided I had to either be a racer or be in business. By the late 1970's I discovered I have a severe case of motion sickness which resulted in nausea any time I was exposed to higher later G forces. Thus after a few experiences I decided I was not able. In the fall of 2006 I saw an add for a Skip Barber High Performance driving school that used street cars. I thought I'd be able to cope with those forces. Wrong... within 30 minutes I was sick. A fellow class member offered me a dramamine which turned out to be the magic pill. On day 2 they let us do 24 laps in 4 different cars on the 24 hr road coarse w/o the chicane. I came home using a word my wife had never heard come out of my mouth. FUN. Anyway, I became consumed with the idea of road racing. However I was sure I was too old. It all got resolved with me renting a Miata from Mike Collins for a SCCA drivers school at Summit Point. The bottom line is I did way too good. I was 7th quick out of 24 students and my instructor of 18 years experience at Summit Point assured me I was not too old. In fact he leaned on me numerous times to go faster. Collins even told me I was "quick". In fact 2 weeks after the school Blake Clements rented the car and was about 5-1/2 seconds quicker than me. Since that time I've found 1 dramamine tracks, 2 dramamine tracks and both Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen are 3 dramamine tracks. Until WK I have only had car contact 1 other time and that was a true idiot drove into my right side. Under most situations I have enough situational awareness and car control to avoid contact and to not become a moving road block.